Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Technique => Topic started by: surfcowboy on November 28, 2013, 03:01:19 PM
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I wanted to update my old caught inside thread and give a little Kauai Northside report as well.
I was there 3 years ago and got shouted out of the lineup for ditching my board in the big stuff (big then.) I took that as a reason to find out how to improve as an amends to the person i ditched in front of and ended up finding the tail handle and working on every way I could to keep control of my gear.
This trip I crossed the line from surviving in overhead sets to paddling over and surfing size able waves. (for me, head high to double overhead) I could catch and ride up to just overhead and work safely in and around the big DOH sets that rolled in by watching and paying attention to where not to be and discussing the break with friendly locals.
I got caught a few times and took a few big ones on my head and handled them well. For one, I found that a hand on the stomp pad and pushing down as the wave hit kept the board within a foot or two of me even with a 10 foot wave breaking on me. 3-4 foot whitewater was manageable as well with this method.
Even the rodeo rides and hold downs were instructive and kept me focused and respecting the water. I got to experience the backwards paddle steering when a big one dragged me for a few yards. And I got to hold my breath that extra 10 seconds while I found that you can't really swim up through 3-4 feet of foam.
I got great weather, nice swell all week, great times with the family (I get three thanksgivings this year!) and some amazing locals who showed much aloha in the lineup. Most of all I got to see a progression in the waves I can ride, paddle through and enjoy. Thanks for the old dogs on here who've offered guidance over the years and especially to the Hawaii crew who've made previously terrifying waves fun.
Mahalo and don't bother with Kauai, it sucks... ;)
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Is Ambrose Curry III still around?
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Sounds great! I would love to be able to be taught those same lessons.
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You did it right cowboy... way to represent :D
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Now, I am a bit confused, since I seem to see surfers ditching their boards all the time.
Is there a difference between "ditching," i.e. when you are caught on the inside or in a multiple set, find yourself in approaching, churning white water, as opposed to merely falling off with the board moving on while attempting to surf?
I am falling off all the time, how is that different from ditching? I am getting the impression that "ditching" is used as a survival mechanism in lieu of duckdiving or turtle diving in large, approaching waves or whitewater, but that "falling off" is more or less inevitable.
Can anybody clear up the distinction? I had a guy yell at me once when I got knocked off in white water, was that because I was "ditching?"
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It's because he was an idiot, and he wanted to yell at you. ;)
It's my job to make sure that I position myself, so there is no one outside me when a set comes. Of course a board can get ripped from anyone's hands if it's big enough.... why would I stay directly inside them when a set comes? I just paddle to the side.... they can do anything they like ;D
I was caught inside on a pretty good size day at Sunset, when I was first in Hawaii in 1977... local boy behind me says "Hold your board brah"... I think "aaaaahhhhh crap" and put a death grip on my board (pre duckdiving days)
and get trashed.(but I held my board)
He could have easily paddled to the side.... but after that.... I had more respect in the lineup.
He was just putting me through my paces. ;)
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Ditching is a "last ditch" sort if thing. Also, a 5' board and 6' leash are a but different from a 10+10 ( or bigger) standup combo.
If you can, control your board. Safer and very do-able in all but the worst cases. If someone's on the wave, they can safely surf around you.
If no one's near, do what you like... And tell us where that empty spot is. :)
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Now, I am a bit confused, since I seem to see surfers ditching their boards all the time.
Is there a difference between "ditching," i.e. when you are caught on the inside or in a multiple set, find yourself in approaching, churning white water, as opposed to merely falling off with the board moving on while attempting to surf?
I am falling off all the time, how is that different from ditching? I am getting the impression that "ditching" is used as a survival mechanism in lieu of duckdiving or turtle diving in large, approaching waves or whitewater, but that "falling off" is more or less inevitable.
Can anybody clear up the distinction? I had a guy yell at me once when I got knocked off in white water, was that because I was "ditching?"
It's a matter of situation....the first thing you must always do when faced with incoming sets about to chew you up is to scan behind you for other surfers. If you neglect that and let go of board in or near somebody's face, that's grounds for immediate dismissal from the break - no question. A shortboard is of course easier to hang on to and duck through the waves, but make no mistake, the shortboarders will expect a longboarder or paddlesurfer to manage his board as well.
If you find yourself in front of a macker and there is nobody behind you or in in area of a 45-degree cone behind, and you dive for the bottom to hold some ground as the wave passes, then it's usually acceptable, as long as you look like you know what your doing (dive deep, keep the leash tight and immediately climb it and get the board re-situated. However, if you're about to get slaughtered and there are folks "in the area" behind you, you'd better just hold onto the board and do your best, even if it means taking a beating and losing more ground than if you dove deep. That's just how it is.
As stated, it's all about positioning. I do everything I can not to let people get behind me and when they do I immediately paddle at a right angle to get away from them.
Ditching carefully and responsibly ain't a big deal. Ditching irresponsibly is defined as a Kook.
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When paddling out, and I need to ditch the board over a head high wave that is breaking in front of me, I try to shoot the board up and over the white water as I fall back. This keeps the board from pulling me back towards the beach, and hopefully stays away from fellow surfers around me. It worked today.
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When paddling out, and I need to ditch the board over a head high wave that is breaking in front of me, I try to shoot the board up and over the white water as I fall back. This keeps the board from pulling me back towards the beach, and hopefully stays away from fellow surfers around me. It worked today.
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Today I started using a slight angle set up before I hit white water. Somehow it magically worked better than straight on and was able to remain on my feet. Surf was only chest to head high. If bigger, I do what Cardiff does.
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Sam Pae's tail handles--coolest thing since sliced bread. Saved me a few beatings today, and my board rarely hist the end of it's leash.
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Now, I am a bit confused, since I seem to see surfers ditching their boards all the time.
Is there a difference between "ditching," i.e. when you are caught on the inside or in a multiple set, find yourself in approaching, churning white water, as opposed to merely falling off with the board moving on while attempting to surf?
I am falling off all the time, how is that different from ditching? I am getting the impression that "ditching" is used as a survival mechanism in lieu of duckdiving or turtle diving in large, approaching waves or whitewater, but that "falling off" is more or less inevitable.
Can anybody clear up the distinction? I had a guy yell at me once when I got knocked off in white water, was that because I was "ditching?"
Falling is part of surfing--anyone who gets mad at you for falling isn't worth your time. Good etiquette would be that you minimize your impact zone and carnage when you fall. Best case is to be able to hang onto your board even if you're in the churning. Worst case is falling spread-eagled and letting the board go to the end of the leash, which can lead to snapbacks and endanger a pretty big radius (10ft leash + 10ft board). At times, it's inevitably going to happen but I've noticed guys much better than me who manage to control things pretty well. Even when they fall they're able to grab the board and tumble with it. Some people are going to bark no matter what, and I've seen that happen if there's a guy who, everytime he falls, ends up spread-eagling in to the water and letting the leash extend until taught, even when it was a pretty inconsequential tumble. No problem if you're the only one out but a good safe habit to get into. It's a little harder as we've got to have one hand on the paddle and only have one to grab the board.
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When paddling out, and I need to ditch the board over a head high wave that is breaking in front of me, I try to shoot the board up and over the white water as I fall back. This keeps the board from pulling me back towards the beach, and hopefully stays away from fellow surfers around me. It worked today.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
I was watching Connor Baxter at Hookipa doing the same recently. Seemed to work really well even in OH surf.
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When paddling out, and I need to ditch the board over a head high wave that is breaking in front of me, I try to shoot the board up and over the white water as I fall back. This keeps the board from pulling me back towards the beach, and hopefully stays away from fellow surfers around me. It worked today.
Not worried about the wave catching the board and slamming it right back into you?
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No. I kicked my board over a pitching double-overhead wave yesterday, and it worked just fine, except the wave was so hollow I free-fell about six feet or so onto my back. Stung like a bellyflop. I guess it was a backyflop.
You do need to experiment with this move away from people a few times, but the difference is remarkable. You get a little run through the rinse cycle, but it's minor compared to having your leash keep pulling you into the turbulence. The board just sits there on the back of the wave, like a faithful horse.
I hate seeing people just ditch and let their board go. Lots of people do it. I always feel like saying something, but I've resigned from my position in the the Kook Kops.
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Instant Karma--tonight I tried to kick my board over a feathering monster when I got caught inside at Tavares. Didn't work. My board came by me like a lawn dart--missed me by sheer chance. Then I got dragged over the reef. My left foot looks like I ran it over with a weed whacker.
Be careful out there. Nothing works every time.
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Holy crap Bill.
My 'be cautious and live to ride another day, hopefully tomorrow' approach is starting to sound almost sensible. Hope your foot is ok dood.
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Not to belittle anybody getting caught inside... but THIS is getting caught inside.
I'd die for sure.
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Question on Sam Pae's tail handles, would it work on the nose?
It would keep the fins away from you and you'd have the board facing the right way for a quicker recovery after the wave passes.
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Question on Sam Pae's tail handles, would it work on the nose?
My experience says no. I think the nose rocker would cause the board to kick up, hard.
These techniques work best for me with the tail pulled down, to ensure the board doesn't kick up when the white water hits. I place my forearm across the tail pad and push down, while gripping the rail saver with my other hand. It works for our size waves.
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DW is right--doesn't work as well, but it works, especially with rounder nose boards.
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How many your age are surfing waves that big ?
Gotta think not many.
Impressive you still do.
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This is the method I use which I have found to be the best even in DOH+ surf. I jump into the water behind my board and put my hand directly on the back of the tail gripping the edge of the board. Just as the wave gets to me I push down on the tail while also pushing forward and up on the board. At the same time I duck under the wave with my one arm being the only thing above water, this tightens the lease somewhat which keeps the board from flying out of control. What I am doing is basically the same thing as standing on the board and shooting it over the wave but I feel I have much more control. You will get little to no pull or stress on your leash, your board will usually end up very close when you surface, your board will not be flying in the air, and you will make others in the lineup happy. I have used this technique for a long time and had many comment to me on how well it seems to work. The only drawback is you will need to be able to deal with your body taking some turns in the bigger surf since you really can't do this and dive down deep. DISCLAIMER!! In the really really big stuff like 20ft+ faces you are pretty much at the mercy of the wave so no techinque is full proof.
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How many your age are surfing waves that big ?
Gotta think not many.
Impressive you still do.
The trick is that I'm still the same 19 year old shithead on the inside.
I use MWW's technique a lot. It's good for about DOH, then it starts to not work quite as well for me. Maybe I'm not doing it quite right. Kicking your board over is mostly for when you were trying to get over a wave and it finally dawns on you that you ain't gonna make it. Kicking it over and taking the spin cycle on your body is a lot better IMHO than diving under the face of the wave--it's too easy to break a leash diving, If you kick over, or push over like MWW says, your board doesn't go anywhere. You, on the other hand, will.
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Not to belittle anybody getting caught inside... but THIS is getting caught inside.
I'd die for sure.
I will chime in once again: 1) Wear Float 2) Wear a Waist Leash
Note how identical these two waves look. Same day, both within an hour of each other. Would you rather be:
1) Mark Healey? Or
2) Haley?
Yellow or Blue, which would you chose?
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Deep Thoughts On FLOAT: I asked my friend Rich what he thought about the latest CO2 jackets. He replied:
"I have advised Haley and you, float shirt inside and coast guard approved wakeboard vest outside. Based on beatings Haley has taken it seems to be good approach, finding pull tabs while getting a-s kicked or while knocked out doesn't seem right approach. Think about Alex, he was not able to pull tabs when he just about drown." e.g. WEAR TWO VESTS
50 year old Software Exec. Haley reports:
"People suggested that I was rattling around in the barrel. I could feel water, barrel spray and I was like ‘this is the craziest thing that has ever happened to me.’ Who cartwheels down the wave? I kept wondering ‘how come I haven’t penetrated?' I couldn’t figure out whether I penetrated or if the lip hit me. Then I got sucked back up and over. I knew it was going to be bad, but I got 2 breathes on the way down while cartwheeling. I was super calm and just kept on breathing, it was really weird. . . When I was down it was 2 full paddles to the surface. 2 full over the top strokes to get to the top. (aka ONLY 2!) I knew that if I didn’t fight I am going down for 2 waves. If I was supposed to pull the air bladder flotation there was no way I could of pulled it because I was flipping so fast on the face."
Mark Healey: Hawaiian Big Wave Star takes this wave AND another on the head. No Buoyancy. At 0:55 he is COOKED. Note the eyes. Finally he capitulates and inflates his vest. You be the judge.
Mark Healey Caught Inside At Mavericks - TransWorld SURF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpegLYkBu-s#)
Maybe this would look goofy in Hawaii but I have never regretted the the waist leash and when you position yourself like this it will pull you to the surface.
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Funny you should mention that. Last night when I was getting my ass handed to me at outer Tavares I had just seen a young guy wearing a float jacket. His looked almost like a heavy shirt, at first I didn't think it was a float/impact jacket, just a neoprene vest, but he later told me it was. It would have been nice to have had one. I was really happy to hit air when I did. I have an old Da Kine impact/float vest that I never wear. Too bulky. After last night I need to either:
1. look into newer float jacket designs
2. Quit surfing tricky spots in big surf.
I've sworn off Tidy Bowls, but I'm not ready to abandon the outer reefs quite yet. I guess it's #1.
I'll also try the waist leash. I prefer calf right now but I'll have to give waist leashes a try.
Do you find the newer vest to be easy to swim in? I had to swim quite a way in my Da Kine kite impact vest, and it sucked.
What kind of vest do you use, what have you seen that you liked?
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Do you find the newer vest to be easy to swim in? I had to swim quite a way in my Da Kine kite impact vest, and it sucked.
We all wear the O'Neill Goorus UNDER our wetsuits. Not a problem to swim with these.
http://www.evo.com/wakeboard-vests/oneill-gooru-padded-comp-vest.aspx?CA_6C15C=820565590000136414#utm_campaign=child_EB-53361-1034_even&utm_source=Amazon&utm_medium=shoppingengine (http://www.evo.com/wakeboard-vests/oneill-gooru-padded-comp-vest.aspx?CA_6C15C=820565590000136414#utm_campaign=child_EB-53361-1034_even&utm_source=Amazon&utm_medium=shoppingengine)
In Hawaii you are going to have to wrestle more with the ego. No one notices under a wetsuit, you just look more Yeti-ish. My friend Jim at OB in San Francisco says he hides behind a tree to put his on. Learned his lesson surfing when his parents were visiting & watching. It was only 8 feet so he thought no need for float. Next thing he knows he's pinned to a sandbar thinking 'My god I am going to die with my parents watching because my ego wouldn't let me put on that damn jacket.' Now he, and I, laugh at Double Overhead.
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I almost died at Lahina Breakwall in head high surf with instructors pushing people into reform fifty feet away. Pinned on the bottom, could NOT get to the surface. I finally got my feet under me and leaped.
I don't have much ego. At 67 most of it was laughed out of me.
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Speaking of jacket problems. I've had my jacket nearly ripped off.
I like to wear a water shirt over it to hide it. The shirt has pulled up and wrapped around my head a few times too.
Those football jerseys surprised me. You must be cool with them pulled over your heads sometimes?
FYI, there are a bunch of us in NC that wear jackets in hurricane swell when surfing the outer breaks at the inlet. More for the separation than anything. Limited buddy system being that far out and separated. Can't even find each other sometimes.
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Not to belittle anybody getting caught inside... but THIS is getting caught inside.
I'd die for sure.
I will chime in once again: 1) Wear Float 2) Wear a Waist Leash
Note how identical these two waves look. Same day, both within an hour of each other. Would you rather be:
1) Mark Healey? Or
2) Haley?
Yellow or Blue, which would you chose?
The green shirted guy in the first pic sitting in front of the pitching lip is what I would choose over the (I guess it's blue) guy falling ass over tea kettle down the face in the bottom pic. Green guy can dive under and will have a prayer of not getting creamed too bad. Guy in bottom shot doesn't have a prayer. His forward momentum will take him for a longer tumble. Plus he is skipping and not getting as much opportunity to get a solid tank of air before his long submersion. If the top pic guy is smart, he'll be packing air instead of worrying about what a fix he's in. In that same pic, how did the owners of the the two boards incased in the lip fare? My bet is that those two boards broke. Their owners probably got hammered as well. My experience is that the backside of a wave that size splits opens up like a chasm with an elevator straight to the basement. Interesting question Beasho.
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Just watched the Healey vid. I think he did alright considering .. except for the next one clobbering him. The second one was probably worse.
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I covered the second crash extensively. Watch Haley cartwheel from 3 different angles w/full video. Forward to 0:40 if you just want the carnage. You can also judge hit 'rattle factor' as I talk to Haley right after the fall. Almost unaffected.
www.vimeo.com/84989420 (http://www.vimeo.com/84989420)
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And how was Healey after his ordeal?
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And how was Healey after his ordeal?
Knocked out of the first round, didn't advance.
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And how was Healey after his ordeal?
Knocked out of the first round, didn't advance.
In the contest right? But I'm referring to your question about which beating would you choose between Healy and Haley. I thought Haley was the resurrection of Bill Haley and the Comets and I choose Healy's predicament, tho it sounds like Haley lucked out pretty well from the vid. Diving under or skipping down the face, that is the question. My my what a choice.
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Healy will have the chance to get some air in and then try to sink under the
first of the impact.
Haley is in a terrible situation. First, skipping along the surface, he can't
penatrate and escape the grip of the wave. Plus what follows is the most
dangerous kind of wipeout, overthefalls with the lip into a deep submersion
or bottom contact.
Although I've only used them a few times, the combination of a 15' waist
leash and float shirt under the wetsuit is a new world. To the extent
possible, I feel some control during the bad moments.
The air bag sounds mint if it can be deployed, but for the unsupported
amatuer, kind of ends the session.
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. . . the combination of a 15' waist leash and float shirt under the wetsuit is a new world. . .
I have a BROTHER!
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:D an uddah muddah.
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This whole topic is fascinating. I could've surfed some actual "big" Hawaiian stuff on my trip, but I just don't have experience in anything beyond legit-DOH.
A float vest sounds like a real confidence booster.
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I ordered an O'Neill Gooru. Doesn't even need to be more than DOH, the outer reef stuff feels an order of magnitude nastier than Kanaha for the same size. I thought I was going to get ripped in half the other night at Outer Tavares -- CS, that's basically the same place we surfed the evening we went out of the reef slit at Kuau. When the waves get much above 15 feet there, they really do a number on you. Pitching out and thumping instead of crumbling like they do at Kanaha. I got sucked over the falls and dragged across the reef. Wasn't fun.
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I ordered an O'Neill Gooru. Doesn't even need to be more than DOH . . .
Pono - Please report back your experience with the Gooru. I consider it as much a part of my gear as a leash. Last summer it was only 2 feet so I didn't wear it. I fell in and just sat there on the bottom waiting to come up. I never did. I had forgotten that you actually have to swim when you fall.
With a wetsuit on the vest will float a person in a vertical position to where the waterline is 2 inches below their shoulder blade. In other words your entire Head ++. First time you fall on a wave that is >8+ feet you should notice a big difference in recovery time.
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I ordered an O'Neill Gooru. Doesn't even need to be more than DOH . . .
Pono - Please report back your experience with the Gooru. I consider it as much a part of my gear as a leash. Last summer it was only 2 feet so I didn't wear it. I fell in and just sat there on the bottom waiting to come up. I never did. I had forgotten that you actually have to swim when you fall.
With a wetsuit on the vest will float a person in a vertical position to where the waterline is 2 inches below their shoulder blade. In other words your entire Head ++. First time you fall on a wave that is >8+ feet you should notice a big difference in recovery time.
I wear an XXL full suit when I need one. It fits "snug" in the shoulders already. with a vest under, could I still paddle I wonder? Do you need to jump a size?
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I am 5' 8" ~ 175 and since I always wear the vest I now buy XLS suites. These are Extra Large Short, in other words one or two sizes up.
They fit well enough and the vest tends to keep you warm so when you finally fall in, even when its cold, it is welcomed relief.
I used to wear a pretty snug XCel 5/4/3 wetsuit with the vest. It was tough to get all wrapped up but once the system got wet it was stretchy enough to paddle well. That combination did get very warm.
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when caught inside,please don't paddle in front of the person that has caught that wave to try to escape it,pay the price and let that person make the wave.It can get very frustrating for the person trying to make the wave having to go around you,and not able to stay in the pocket.Mahalo
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I ordered an O'Neill Gooru. Doesn't even need to be more than DOH, the outer reef stuff feels an order of magnitude nastier than Kanaha for the same size. I thought I was going to get ripped in half the other night at Outer Tavares -- CS, that's basically the same place we surfed the evening we went out of the reef slit at Kuau. When the waves get much above 15 feet there, they really do a number on you. Pitching out and thumping instead of crumbling like they do at Kanaha. I got sucked over the falls and dragged across the reef. Wasn't fun.
Hey bro what's the chance you may drag me to the outer reefs in a few weeks....I'm game but I may want to get a vest. I have the added concern in the big stuff of my crappy lung capacity.
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Whine, whine. If bro gets any more nervous he may chain himself to a chair at the airport. Would I put you in danger? Oh, wait. I kind of did that for a lot of years. But don't worry, I'm much kinder and gentler now. Just ask Covesurfer.
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Chances are, you'll survive. It is best to always bring your A game. As far as we know, no one has been lost or has been confirmed dead after going with Bill.
So far. ;D
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No other person on the planet has put me in danger as many times as Bill. Started when he decided to teach me to swim at 4 years old or so by tossing me into 5' of water. I'd probably be dead if he had been around more when I was in my teens.
Bill's idea of teaching his kids to skateboard, stick em on a board and push them down a steep hill....sans pads.
I know all too well my limits will likely be tested. I'm all for giving it a go...in fact I'll be disappointed if we don't. But with you talking vests I'm thinking I'd be silly not to. You're in better shape than me despite geezerdom. I've never come out there without leaving a bit sore, bruised, and left some blood and skin behind....just trying to avoid the body bags...and just think how pissed Sue would be..... ;D
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remember that line in Butch Cassidy, "Hell the fall alone will kill ya."
No worries, Stoney. Nothing ever happens with us. These guys just make up stories.
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I sense an "epic movie" opportunity... adventure, conspiracy and a challenge thrown down.... a sense of hesitation and yet resolute determination .... the scene is set, in a tropical paradise, for the ultimate test of sibling rivalry....out numbered, "Axeman, the younger" sets out to meet, on his tormentor's home turf.... for the final showdown... dun dun dunnnnn!
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Would I put you in danger? Oh, wait. I kind of did that for a lot of years. But don't worry, I'm much kinder and gentler now. Just ask Covesurfer.
No other person on the planet has put me in danger as many times as Bill. Started when he decided to teach me to swim at 4 years old or so by tossing me into 5' of water. I'd probably be dead if he had been around more when I was in my teens.
No worries, Stoney. Nothing ever happens with us. These guys just make up stories.
Chances are, you'll survive. It is best to always bring your A game.
I sense an "epic movie" opportunity...
Some parallel lines. River for waves, snakes for sharks, Mr. Stoney instead of Mr. Bill, and heck, a tube for a vest........and you're set. Always good intentions.
Mr Bill's River Tubing Adventure. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppAAzECw7qM#)
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The director of Mr. Bill's (Mr. Stoneaxe's or Mr. Covesurfer's or insert name here) adventure would be Mr. Pono (or, even Mr. HM). I've felt like Mr. Bill in that inner tube on a number of our adventures.
"We'll just come across the reef down there, no big deal" "I don't think it's that off-shore that you can't take a nice outside line where the swell is really good", "just watch out for the old WWII tank traps when you get near the beach, those could put a hole in your board", and my personal favorite, "sure, the swells LOOK huge, but they won't hurt you, they just roll under you".
Dueling uke's instead of banjos.
All set? Have fun! ;D ;D ;D
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For one, I found that a hand on the stomp pad and pushing down as the wave hit kept the board within a foot or two of me even with a 10 foot wave breaking on me. 3-4 foot whitewater was manageable as well with this method.
;)
Surfcowboy - have I got this right....you are simply in the water and with one hand pushing the board's nose up via the stomp pad and that gets you through those big walls?