Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: Dwight (DW) on July 14, 2013, 10:16:18 AM
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The quick and dirty test.
1.35 lb EPS from Carpenter
2 layers 4 oz S
Didn't even do a nice hot coat. Just a quick wetout of 2 layers.
Let sit for several weeks before sanding.
Hit each fin with a sledge hammer. Each blow stronger than the next until a failure showed. It took maybe 5 blows for each.
Probox never failed. The fin broke. The way you want it.
The FCS Fusion finbox failed before the fin. Bad!
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1237_size1024_zpsb112d4e4.jpg)
FCS Fusion
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1239_size880_zps35e6258a.jpg)
Probox below
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1240_size880_zpsc25dbd24.jpg)
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Impressive results!
Thanks for posting.
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Hey DW, you know how to have fun!
Just one question, did your sledge have have a dihedral on the power-face? ;D
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Hey DW, you know how to have fun!
Just one question, did your sledge have have a dihedral on the power-face? ;D
You should have seen me trying to hold those samples and smash the fin. Very comical. I had to stand on the blocks. One foot each side of the fin, and swing the hammer between my legs without falling off. Good thing I'm used to standing on small boards.
Notice the smash marks on the fins ;D Those were new fins before the sledge hammer got them.
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another reason not to get FCS fusion is that flies love it. Unless you like flies on your board, i would recommend against it. ;D
Good job on the test, samething happen this weekend too, the fin just snap off on my probox.
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DW--did you use the roving or did you lay some glass underneath the box? And thanks for the sacrifice of some nice fins.
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DW--did you use the roving or did you lay some glass underneath the box? And thanks for the sacrifice of some nice fins.
I can't remember. I'm old ;D I do remember trying many things and struggling. What finally ended up in there, not sure.
1) tried making some roving pulling strands from 4 oz. Didn't think it filled enough of that huge cavity.
2) tried lining the cavity with 2 layers 4oz. Again wanted more of the cavity filled.
3) tired number 1 and 2. That was a mess trying to fit it all in.
4) tried cutting a 1/2" wide strip off some 4oz cloth. Wrapped it with the 1/2 wide cloth. I liked that better.
I do remember it was a disaster trying to learn how to install this box. Epoxy ran under the jig. It loosened the spray glue and the jig was floating away.
I was baffled by all the resin it was taking to fill around the box, until I saw the jig floating away. Oops :P
I hated the clear-ish/white jigs. Larry what were you thinking ??? I could barely see the jig through all the flying debris, while routing, because of that color. Give me a neon orange or yellow color ;D Old guys can't see either. ;D
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For what its worth, I just used some 6oz glass in my pro box install.
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DW, Used to use other colors but in the Epoxy world the color from the jigs would bleed onto the clear boards but not with Polyester Resin never a problem. Also when you put tape down first when using Epoxy like the pic below. The epoxy won't attack the 77 spray (Glue) and epoxy leaking under the jigs won't happen my friend.
Thanks for the simple test, LOVE it when guys take things to the extreme and get it! because if I would do this people would SAY,"SURE LARRY you fixed it to do that!" LOL
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That's also a good illustration of how you can trim the jigs for tighter fin clusters.
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Crushing into a surfboard is more common in a dry install and glassed over with Futures like the pic here than FCS Fusions. NO! the fins had no damage from hitting anything. I was justed in Hawaii and had a meeting at a surf shop in Town. The shop had a guy who just bought a new CI the day before and it had the same with Futures crushed into the board. The board had no damage and the fins had no marks from impact, but the waves were 4 to 5 feet the kid was surfing. The owner of the shop said he had never seen such a thing! The owner looked at me and said, "Larry have you ever seen this before?" I replied, "YES" The owner traded a new board to the customer which I thought was great customer service!
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I call bs on not hitting anything. Looks like a big pressure dent above the box. Most likely shoddy workman ship on the install from the factory not to mention a "team light" glass job. It's the installer not the box. Can probox assure no amateur installs???? I placed 24 sets of futures last month with all the confidence that they will not fail. Always do pre glass unless retrofitted. And even the retrofitted with a patch do perfectly fine. Not sure what a dry install is and what my imagination tells me it is I think it is not recommended from futures.
Anything is better than FCS. Not surprised probox won in the pseudo scientific test. As far as the anecdotal pic story of the futures fail, it is only a testimony of poor craftsmanship from the board manufacture. Also, surfers are notorious liars when it comes to damage of new boards.
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I call bs on not hitting anything. Looks like a big pressure dent above the box. Most likely shoddy workman ship on the install from the factory not to mention a "team light" glass job. It's the installer not the box. Can probox assure no amateur installs???? I placed 24 sets of futures last month with all the confidence that they will not fail. Always do pre glass unless retrofitted. And even the retrofitted with a patch do perfectly fine. Not sure what a dry install is and what my imagination tells me it is I think it is not recommended from futures.
Anything is better than FCS. Not surprised probox won in the pseudo scientific test. As far as the anecdotal pic story of the futures fail, it is only a testimony of poor craftsmanship from the board manufacture. Also, surfers are notorious liars when it comes to damage of new boards.
Thanks malama, For jumping in, I like when people share their experiences. The fins on this board had no damage and the board in Hawaii last week buckled while the guy was surfing. You are right most Glass shops are a major factor to failures for sure. As for Amateurs installing ProBox, they are better installors than most glass shops because Amateurs don't follow short cuts on their own boards. There are some glass shops that can install anything but more glass shops take short cuts than right way. A dry install is when the box is set into a foam structure then glassed over. This is the biggest down fall or failure problem of these finsystems. It is like trying to glue a box into a wet sponge and expecting it to stick and have structure support from the wet sponge, will never happen. Thanks malama for sharing. Mahalo,Larry
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Dry install...wow I can't imagine it. Never seen it done and it's the first I heard of it today. Would you ever buy a rack board from that company??
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Dry install...wow I can't imagine it. Never seen it done and it's the first I heard of it today. Would you ever buy a rack board from that company??
Malama the majority of the rack boards are done that way. Which kills me that a ding repair makes more repairing one box than the glass shop makes doing the whole board. But install and strenght is only part of Probox Superiority over other systems. Performance to your board is another big factor that puts Probox Finsystem ahead of other shipping finsystems.
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Thought about this last night.
Riding my new Infinity Phoenix, I turned hard and the tail broke free...I let it slide a while and when I slid it back under my body I felt it "snap" back. Thought the fin box may have snapped.
Nope.
Turns out the moon fins just feel different than a thruster set up.
Good to know its strong!
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Thought about this last night.
Riding my new Infinity Phoenix, I turned hard and the tail broke free...I let it slide a while and when I slid it back under my body I felt it "snap" back. Thought the fin box may have snapped.
Nope.
Turns out the moon fins just feel different than a thruster set up.
Good to know its strong!
Surf Giant, You may want to change the cant on your fins more vertical listening to your description.What color insert is in your board now.
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Thought about this last night.
Riding my new Infinity Phoenix, I turned hard and the tail broke free...I let it slide a while and when I slid it back under my body I felt it "snap" back. Thought the fin box may have snapped.
Nope.
Turns out the moon fins just feel different than a thruster set up.
Good to know its strong!
Surf Giant, You may want to change the cant on your fins more vertical listening to your description.What color insert is in your board now.
Dave started me out with the red inserts.
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Thought about this last night.
Riding my new Infinity Phoenix, I turned hard and the tail broke free...I let it slide a while and when I slid it back under my body I felt it "snap" back. Thought the fin box may have snapped.
Nope.
Turns out the moon fins just feel different than a thruster set up.
Good to know its strong!
Surf Giant, You may want to change the cant on your fins more vertical listening to your description.What color insert is in your board now.
Dave started me out with the red inserts.
That's a good start at 4 degree, but if you are spinning out go to the Blue 0 degree and try that and tell me what you feel.
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Thx Larry.
I should add that I was trying to slide the tail.
I've discovered that this board needs to surfed further forward than my other boards. In fact, it's so short, I can practically surf it from a pretty fixed position and still slide the tail (purposefully), cutback and hit lip.
At first I was too far back and the tail was letting go too easily.
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Futures boxes can be plenty strong if installed properly. The problem is that some don't seem to care to go somewhere beyond the routine way.
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I spent some time on the beach today teaching guys about the new fin boxes (probox) in my boards.
On a 1 to 10 scale, 10 being the loosest. I had my board set on 8 today. Try that with Futures or FCS ??? YOU CAN'T.
With pro box these are the possibilities
1) all 4 fins spaced 1" wider with 6 degrees on front, 4 back
2) all 4 fins spaced 1" closer, 6 degrees and 4
3) all 4 fins forward 1/2", 6 degrees and 4
4) all 4 fins back 1/2", 6 degrees and 4
5) repeat all 4 settings above, but with 8 degrees and 4 angles.
That takes me to 8 combinations, plus some in-between settings not listed.
About 10 settings in total that greatly affect handling. So much so, you probably can make the board do anything you want, without ever buying another set of fins.
With Futures or FCS, if you're not happy with the stock handling, you'll be spending $100 for each new set of fins while you try to make it suit your surfing style.
It becomes a no brainer when ordering a custom board in my opinion, to make them install pro boxes.
In fairness to the other brands, I get it. Those boxes are fast and easy to install in a production operation. Proboxes take a little more effort. But its worth it when its your money.
Sorry for the rant. Spending time on the beach teaching people about it, got me all fired up ;D
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I love probox users. While they are on the beach trying all the combinations I am catching all the waves.javascript:replaceText('%20;D',%20document.forms.postmodify.message);
No, you are right, the combinations are awesome and the extra money spent in ordering them pay off 10 times over when considering fins. 95% of my customers don't care about fin set ups and the 5% who are particular know what they want and it is provided for them no matter what it is.
You are are particular and your crew is too. You are the 5% of the SUP world.
Are there any problems you have ever had with them?? You know, lost my inserts, got stuck, wont come out, broke.
Lots of work goes into fine tuning a board. Sounds like you guys are having a blast at it!!!!
BTW, as a registered business since 1999, fins are all wholesale. There are no $100 a set fins.
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I pay retail. I'm not in business. I don't take orders. I give my designs away free. My buddies get copies made by the Greenroom. When I retire, that will change.
For 3/4 of the people I know surfing my designs (reproduced by the Greenroom, or my old personal boards sold off used) my fin recommendation is right. But a few guys like a feel that is weird to me. I know one guy who likes all his boards to slide out in the tail. Another likes massive power under his foot.
Those guys have to spend $$$ to get it dialed.
Some people just surf their boards with any old shit stuck in the box and could care less. I actually saw a guy with a new shortboard today, with 3 side bites for fins, because he didn't want to buy fins and he had those laying around. There is nothing we can do about people like that.
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You guys are into it so you actually care. Glad you found the system that works for you. OF course no system is perfect for all people. I would really be interested in any down sides of the system as a user.(not installer). I find that not all people treat their boards with kids gloves. Just interested to hear any concerns after long term normal use.
Preferences you describe about loose or power stuck are because of lots of reason in the shape. That 1 person can switch boards with another and adjust the probox to make it get their feel is great. Sounds like an ideal system for stock boards.
I have done repairs on boards and received it with the right and left side bites switched to the wrong side.
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The hammer tests look like it could be fun. Always fun to let a firing Pistol to test everything.
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I would really be interested in any down sides of the system as a user.(not installer). I find that not all people treat their boards with kids gloves. Just interested to hear any concerns after long term normal use.
FCS fins falling out.
Because the box provides a lot of fore and aft adjustment, you can slide the fin forward enough that the grub screw misses the recess milled in the fin tab. So your fin ends up being held by screw pressure only. If the screw comes loose, the fin falls out.
Now if I were in production as a real business, I would sell the boards with Larry's fins and eliminate that problem. Counting down the days to retirement and doing this as my retirement side job. ;D Ugh, tired of being an engineer trapped in a cubical.
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i agree most surfer dont care much about adjustment, they just want to stick with one setup that work for them. But i rather have a system that is adjustable and have the shaper setup the fin, than having a fin system that can't be adjust for different condition.
getsupngo, i just took my first windsurfing class, its way harder than it looks. I still trying to figure out the wind angles, etc.
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I love probox users. While they are on the beach trying all the combinations I am catching all the waves.
Love Future users that are running to the surf shop to find the right fin on the fin tree to work since no one knows what fins to use, not to forget the lack of drive their boards have because the fins are flexing down into the box so they won't roll under neath the glass jobs. And the Probox user"s are flying past everyone with the right fins and catching waves early because of the drive their boards have using Probox Finsystems catching air like this guy in OZ.
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Forgot about those Futures fin trees. You made me laugh ;D ;D
My second board with ProBox. Stoked on how it turned out.
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/IMG_3425_zpsfa574f3c.jpg)
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/IMG_3668_zps93d75140.jpg)
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Malama qoute:
You are are particular and your crew is too. You are the 5% of the SUP world.
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[/quote]
Your numbers are pretty far off my friend. The Sup market put Probox back on the map after the surge of Quads in the mid 2000's. The strength and drive of Probox over the breakage of FCS back tabs on their fins and lack of Drive and forward projection of Futures. Which is why guys like Reid Inouye the publisher of Standup Mag swears by Probox after I retro fits all his boards from Futures, LACK of DRIVE due the fact of just a front screw to lock the fin in which failed in the 80's for Twin Fins.
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Different angle of Reid's Boards!
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Forgot about those Futures fin trees. You made me laugh ;D ;D
My second board with ProBox. Stoked on how it turned out.
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/IMG_3425_zpsfa574f3c.jpg)
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/IMG_3668_zps93d75140.jpg)
NICE one my FRIEND!!!!
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Malama qoute:
Are there any problems you have ever had with them?? You know, lost my inserts, got stuck, wont come out, broke.
[/quote]
Sounds more like the problems are from the installer and some end user use not the fault of ProBox Finsystems!
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The hammer tests look like it could be fun. Always fun to let a firing Pistol to test everything.
GetSUP: That looks like the beginning of my Alaska windsurfer--and also the end. About 30 years ago I took a board to Nome as checked luggage that I made into a two piece at Swell City. Stuck pieces of broken mast into the foam as reinforcement and indexing, and then taped everything to make it waterproof. Worked fine for about four days until I decided to jump a little tugboat swell and turned it back into a two piece--went right through the deck into the water with no resistance. A very long swim back in towing my sail and using the nose as a kickboard. Makes me shiver just to think about it. there isn't a suit thick enough for that water.
Malama--one of the reasons people don't tune their fins much is that it's so hard and expensive to do. I really like Larry's design. I ordered my L41 with Proboxes and got futures instead. I'm not thrilled about that, but I LOVE the board.
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Different angle of Reid's Boards!
Before and after to Probox Finsystem which brought these boards to life from the old shipping side bite systems of the nighties.
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The hammer tests look like it could be fun. Always fun to let a firing Pistol to test everything.
GetSUP: That looks like the beginning of my Alaska windsurfer--and also the end. About 30 years ago I took a board to Nome as checked luggage that I made into a two piece at Swell City. Stuck pieces of broken mast into the foam as reinforcement and indexing, and then taped everything to make it waterproof. Worked fine for about four days until I decided to jump a little tugboat swell and turned it back into a two piece--went right through the deck into the water with no resistance. A very long swim back in towing my sail and using the nose as a kickboard. Makes me shiver just to think about it. there isn't a suit thick enough for that water.
Malama--one of the reasons people don't tune their fins much is that it's so hard and expensive to do. I really like Larry's design. I ordered my L41 with Proboxes and got futures instead. I'm not thrilled about that, but I LOVE the board.
Thanks Bill sorry to hear about your L41! If you are in LA for 4 days and you have your board I will retro fitted for you my friend. Mahalo, Larry
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Hey Bill,
After doing a couple of boards with ProBox, I'm thrilled by the fact that they install after glassing. Works out simple for retrofits. Go for it, you've got the skills. ;D
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speaking of improper installs. How that 1/8" ridge on each retro fitted install on the blue board???
Are they so good, flush to the board is just more bs from the industry???
Fins look awesome though.
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Crap, I just noticed all the retro fitted ones have a ridge....Yikes
Maybe RI is on to something
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Malama qoute:
Are there any problems you have ever had with them?? You know, lost my inserts, got stuck, wont come out, broke.
Sounds more like the problems are from the installer and some end user use not the fault of ProBox Finsystems!
[/quote]
You were quick to point out the inherent shortcomings of the futures which I agree with and can live with. It was a serious question to the serious users about PB shortcomings . I have never used them on my personal boards. I just occasional install them. If RI wants my number I think I can do a better job with those retro fits.
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The hammer tests look like it could be fun. Always fun to let a firing Pistol to test everything.
GetSUP: That looks like the beginning of my Alaska windsurfer--and also the end. About 30 years ago I took a board to Nome as checked luggage that I made into a two piece at Swell City. Stuck pieces of broken mast into the foam as reinforcement and indexing, and then taped everything to make it waterproof. Worked fine for about four days until I decided to jump a little tugboat swell and turned it back into a two piece--went right through the deck into the water with no resistance. A very long swim back in towing my sail and using the nose as a kickboard. Makes me shiver just to think about it. there isn't a suit thick enough for that water.
Malama--one of the reasons people don't tune their fins much is that it's so hard and expensive to do. I really like Larry's design. I ordered my L41 with Proboxes and got futures instead. I'm not thrilled about that, but I LOVE the board.
You love the board. That is great!!! They are nice shapes and obviously works for you in spite of the faulty fin system placed. If you get a retro fit I suggest getting them flush to the bottom.
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The hammer tests look like it could be fun. Always fun to let a firing Pistol to test everything.
GetSUP: That looks like the beginning of my Alaska windsurfer--and also the end. About 30 years ago I took a board to Nome as checked luggage that I made into a two piece at Swell City. Stuck pieces of broken mast into the foam as reinforcement and indexing, and then taped everything to make it waterproof. Worked fine for about four days until I decided to jump a little tugboat swell and turned it back into a two piece--went right through the deck into the water with no resistance. A very long swim back in towing my sail and using the nose as a kickboard. Makes me shiver just to think about it. there isn't a suit thick enough for that water.
Malama--one of the reasons people don't tune their fins much is that it's so hard and expensive to do. I really like Larry's design. I ordered my L41 with Proboxes and got futures instead. I'm not thrilled about that, but I LOVE the board.
You love the board. That is great!!! They are nice shapes and obviously works for you in spite of the faulty fin system placed. If you get a retro fit I suggest getting them flush to the bottom.
Malama, That is not a ridge around the Probox. It's Fiber Glas Sock which acts as a separation from the ProBox and the Eps foam structure creating a support eliminating the box from slipping under the lamination from strong lateral loads applied by big fins and strong surf conditions and keeps the Eps sealed from water entering at any time. I call this a Fiber Glass Housing in which the ProBox sits, like the center long box install.
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Hey Bill,
After doing a couple of boards with ProBox, I'm thrilled by the fact that they install after glassing. Works out simple for retrofits. Go for it, you've got the skills. ;D
glassing a patch on the top would make it better. It is possible and you could use a bigger hammer with your next test.
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i think the shortcoming with Probox is if the end user dont know how to setup the fin placement, you dont get the full potential of the board. a But it still by far the strongest system i have use. I hate doing fin box repairs and i only have to do one on PB b/c it fell off the freeway @ 60mph. now if someone make a fin system like red x with probox cant insert, that would be almost a "bigger" hammer proof system.
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glassing a patch on the top would make it better. It is possible and you could use a bigger hammer with your next test.
For a ProBox install, a top patch would be sacrificed in the sanding process, so you would get very little, if any, additional benefit from it.
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Malama, What you see around my installs are color to set off the box and are very flush my friend.
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The hammer tests look like it could be fun. Always fun to let a firing Pistol to test everything.
GetSUP: That looks like the beginning of my Alaska windsurfer--and also the end. About 30 years ago I took a board to Nome as checked luggage that I made into a two piece at Swell City. Stuck pieces of broken mast into the foam as reinforcement and indexing, and then taped everything to make it waterproof. Worked fine for about four days until I decided to jump a little tugboat swell and turned it back into a two piece--went right through the deck into the water with no resistance. A very long swim back in towing my sail and using the nose as a kickboard. Makes me shiver just to think about it. there isn't a suit thick enough for that water.
Malama--one of the reasons people don't tune their fins much is that it's so hard and expensive to do. I really like Larry's design. I ordered my L41 with Proboxes and got futures instead. I'm not thrilled about that, but I LOVE the board.
You love the board. That is great!!! They are nice shapes and obviously works for you in spite of the faulty fin system placed. If you get a retro fit I suggest getting them flush to the bottom.
Malama, I am not sure how much more flush you can get the install.
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glassing a patch on the top would make it better. It is possible and you could use a bigger hammer with your next test.
For a ProBox install, a top patch would be sacrificed in the sanding process, so you would get very little, if any, additional benefit from it.
You are correct Bean, not to forget glass over may throw off fin fit into insert flush to bottom of board. Also the bottom lamination is part of the lateral load supporting the fin from rolling the rail and increase the power at the base of your fin for forward projection.
Malama, Not sure where you see a ridge my friend. Pictures can play funny tricks on your eyes.
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The hammer tests look like it could be fun. Always fun to let a firing Pistol to test everything.
GetSUP: That looks like the beginning of my Alaska windsurfer--and also the end. About 30 years ago I took a board to Nome as checked luggage that I made into a two piece at Swell City. Stuck pieces of broken mast into the foam as reinforcement and indexing, and then taped everything to make it waterproof. Worked fine for about four days until I decided to jump a little tugboat swell and turned it back into a two piece--went right through the deck into the water with no resistance. A very long swim back in towing my sail and using the nose as a kickboard. Makes me shiver just to think about it. there isn't a suit thick enough for that water.
Malama--one of the reasons people don't tune their fins much is that it's so hard and expensive to do. I really like Larry's design. I ordered my L41 with Proboxes and got futures instead. I'm not thrilled about that, but I LOVE the board.
Here's another one. My friend asked me if I would it fix it for him as he loved that board. Unbelievable.
I did have plenty of broken masts laying around. The lower section of one of my skinnies snapped
in 3 places at Cape Sebastion. Pistol breaks the boards, the Cape breaks the masts, leashes or just takes your entire rig away. Many of those broken mast bits are in wind chimes or hot wire bows now.
I'll stick to the Chinook boxes and my own boxes for the windsurf boards. I always use glass in and over for any kind of finbox.
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The hammer tests look like it could be fun. Always fun to let a firing Pistol to test everything.
GetSUP: That looks like the beginning of my Alaska windsurfer--and also the end. About 30 years ago I took a board to Nome as checked luggage that I made into a two piece at Swell City. Stuck pieces of broken mast into the foam as reinforcement and indexing, and then taped everything to make it waterproof. Worked fine for about four days until I decided to jump a little tugboat swell and turned it back into a two piece--went right through the deck into the water with no resistance. A very long swim back in towing my sail and using the nose as a kickboard. Makes me shiver just to think about it. there isn't a suit thick enough for that water.
Malama--one of the reasons people don't tune their fins much is that it's so hard and expensive to do. I really like Larry's design. I ordered my L41 with Proboxes and got futures instead. I'm not thrilled about that, but I LOVE the board.
You love the board. That is great!!! They are nice shapes and obviously works for you in spite of the faulty fin system placed. If you get a retro fit I suggest getting them flush to the bottom.
Malama, That is not a ridge around the Probox. It's Fiber Glas Sock which acts as a separation from the ProBox and the Eps foam structure creating a support eliminating the box from slipping under the lamination from strong lateral loads applied by big fins and strong surf conditions and keeps the Eps sealed from water entering at any time. I call this a Fiber Glass Housing in which the ProBox sits, like the center long box install.
That is a flush fit you show. I install them and know how they should look. Look at RI's boards. That not flush. it is above the flush futures.
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The prob with red x on sup installs I have to cut off a sleeve on a new box to glue it to the sleeve of red x box that is being installed. It makes a long enough sleeve for the thick foam sometimes on a sup. Pretty much gave up on the red x for sups.
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The hammer tests look like it could be fun. Always fun to let a firing Pistol to test everything.
GetSUP: That looks like the beginning of my Alaska windsurfer--and also the end. About 30 years ago I took a board to Nome as checked luggage that I made into a two piece at Swell City. Stuck pieces of broken mast into the foam as reinforcement and indexing, and then taped everything to make it waterproof. Worked fine for about four days until I decided to jump a little tugboat swell and turned it back into a two piece--went right through the deck into the water with no resistance. A very long swim back in towing my sail and using the nose as a kickboard. Makes me shiver just to think about it. there isn't a suit thick enough for that water.
Malama--one of the reasons people don't tune their fins much is that it's so hard and expensive to do. I really like Larry's design. I ordered my L41 with Proboxes and got futures instead. I'm not thrilled about that, but I LOVE the board.
You love the board. That is great!!! They are nice shapes and obviously works for you in spite of the faulty fin system placed. If you get a retro fit I suggest getting them flush to the bottom.
Malama, I am not sure how much more flush you can get the install.
Tell me these are flush and I will go get my eyes examined this afternoon.
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Seems like we're getting off track here. This is the SHAPE SHACK where I came to help my fellow garage builders.
With that in mind, here is my experience doing my first and second boards with ProBox.
My first attempt
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1252_size880_zpse2e45296.jpg)
The surprise I found when I pulled the jigs off. A little epoxy ran under the jig. I later learned, this is how its done with polyester. With epoxy, you have to place masking tape on the board first. Epoxy eats that 3M77 spray adhesive and loosens the jigs. Oops :D
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1254_size880_zps5187d027.jpg)
It still came out pretty though.
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1289_size880_zps0b4de0ab.jpg)
My second board, with the tape this time ;D
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1282_size880_zps93d88080.jpg)
Perfect and pretty.
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1288_size880_zpsf55e41a5.jpg)
I suspect Larry's got glass fill in the plastic of the boxes. They look, feel, and sound (when you tap on them) a lot like the good old Chinooks, that we all know and love for their toughness and high glass fill content in the plastic. Far tougher than the plain plastic used by the surf industry.
Tip, make sure you've got the right tools for sanding these tough boxes. With the right tool, it's easy. 60 grit and my FlexPad extra firm disk.
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The hammer tests look like it could be fun. Always fun to let a firing Pistol to test everything.
GetSUP: That looks like the beginning of my Alaska windsurfer--and also the end. About 30 years ago I took a board to Nome as checked luggage that I made into a two piece at Swell City. Stuck pieces of broken mast into the foam as reinforcement and indexing, and then taped everything to make it waterproof. Worked fine for about four days until I decided to jump a little tugboat swell and turned it back into a two piece--went right through the deck into the water with no resistance. A very long swim back in towing my sail and using the nose as a kickboard. Makes me shiver just to think about it. there isn't a suit thick enough for that water.
Malama--one of the reasons people don't tune their fins much is that it's so hard and expensive to do. I really like Larry's design. I ordered my L41 with Proboxes and got futures instead. I'm not thrilled about that, but I LOVE the board.
Here's another one. My friend asked me if I would it fix it for him as he loved that board. Unbelievable.
I did have plenty of broken masts laying around. The lower section of one of my skinnies snapped
in 3 places at Cape Sebastion. Pistol breaks the boards, the Cape breaks the masts, leashes or just takes your entire rig away. Many of those broken mast bits are in wind chimes or hot wire bows now.
I'll stick to the Chinook boxes and my own boxes for the windsurf boards. I always use glass in and over for any kind of finbox.
o
It's funny how wind surfers don't keep their value. A 2000 dollar, two year old model sells for $300 dollars. Almost not worth repairing. That same company's sups keep way higher resale. If you are repairing and making windsurfers you got skills for sure. Chinook boxes are near nuke proof.
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The hammer tests look like it could be fun. Always fun to let a firing Pistol to test everything.
GetSUP: That looks like the beginning of my Alaska windsurfer--and also the end. About 30 years ago I took a board to Nome as checked luggage that I made into a two piece at Swell City. Stuck pieces of broken mast into the foam as reinforcement and indexing, and then taped everything to make it waterproof. Worked fine for about four days until I decided to jump a little tugboat swell and turned it back into a two piece--went right through the deck into the water with no resistance. A very long swim back in towing my sail and using the nose as a kickboard. Makes me shiver just to think about it. there isn't a suit thick enough for that water.
Malama--one of the reasons people don't tune their fins much is that it's so hard and expensive to do. I really like Larry's design. I ordered my L41 with Proboxes and got futures instead. I'm not thrilled about that, but I LOVE the board.
You love the board. That is great!!! They are nice shapes and obviously works for you in spite of the faulty fin system placed. If you get a retro fit I suggest getting them flush to the bottom.
Malama, I am not sure how much more flush you can get the install.
Tell me these are flush and I will go get my eyes examined this afternoon.
Malama, These are flush with clear epoxy which creates the dark ring around the Probox. It's not your eyes as much as the pic angle. Mahalo
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Seems like we're getting off track here. This is the SHAPE SHACK where I came to help my fellow garage builders.
With that in mind, here is my experience doing my first and second boards with ProBox.
My first attempt
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1252_size880_zpse2e45296.jpg)
The surprise I found when I pulled the jigs off. A little epoxy ran under the jig. I later learned, this is how its done with polyester. With epoxy, you have to place masking tape on the board first. Epoxy eats that 3M77 spray adhesive and loosens the jigs. Oops :D
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1254_size880_zps5187d027.jpg)
It still came out pretty though.
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1289_size880_zps0b4de0ab.jpg)
My second board, with the tape this time ;D
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1282_size880_zps93d88080.jpg)
Perfect and pretty.
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1288_size880_zpsf55e41a5.jpg)
I suspect Larry's got glass fill in the plastic of the boxes. They look, feel, and sound (when you tap on them) a lot like the good old Chinooks, that we all know and love for their toughness and high glass fill content in the plastic. Far tougher than the plain plastic used by the surf industry.
Tip, make sure you've got the right tools for sanding these tough boxes. With the right tool, it's easy. 60 grit and my FlexPad extra firm disk.
WOW!!!! DW wish I could have a dozen of you spread out here in SO. Cal. to show them how its done. Great info pics my friend.
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Seems like we're getting off track here. This is the SHAPE SHACK where I came to help my fellow garage builders.
With that in mind, here is my experience doing my first and second boards with ProBox.
My first attempt
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1252_size880_zpse2e45296.jpg)
The surprise I found when I pulled the jigs off. A little epoxy ran under the jig. I later learned, this is how its done with polyester. With epoxy, you have to place masking tape on the board first. Epoxy eats that 3M77 spray adhesive and loosens the jigs. Oops :D
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1254_size880_zps5187d027.jpg)
My second board, with the tape this time ;D
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1282_size880_zps93d88080.jpg)
Perfect and pretty.
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/fr_1288_size880_zpsf55e41a5.jpg)
I suspect Larry's got glass fill in the plastic of the boxes. They look, feel, and sound (when you tap on them) a lot like the good old Chinooks, that we all know and love for their toughness and high glass fill content in the plastic. Far tougher than the plain plastic used by the surf industry.
I really think the initial premise of this topic is unhelpful. It's quasi scientific, and that's being nice.
PB are great boxes especially when compared to fcs.
Taping off pre jig gluing is time well spent. You are doing nice work DW. You should now go talk to your accountant or tax person and have them convince you to start a business. It will allow you to grow your tools and shop and supplies with the benefits of your business license. Everyone starts out small. You might as well reap the tax benefits when you need them most.
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Also DW, I free hand router any type boxes down to the point of just needing a light hit with the sander. I have seen boards that get aggressively sanded which causes extreme heat build up and can cause damage to the resin that set your boxes.( can make it soften and stay that way)
Next time you sand one, touch your finger to the box when you lift the pad off. If it is too hot to touch you could be causing a problem. When using a router, touch with your hand or tongue, it will never be too hot.
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Larry, I don't know. I guess I need an eye exam. This looks also the upper left in pic was done over a dry futures install too.
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Next time you sand one, touch your finger to the box
Yep, I did just that because I wanted to see how my NEW extra hard Flexpad was working with my Milwaukee. I was very impressed. No heat at all.
Now, if I had been sanding it with my old random orbital, it would have been smoking hot.
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Also DW, I free hand router any type boxes down to the point of just needing a light hit with the sander.
I pre-grind down the height of Chinook boxes before installing because they are insanely hard. The Probox is not that hard, but it doesn't sand like cheap plastic either. So maybe it's 10% glass filled plastic while Chinook is 40% fill. My wild ass guess ;D
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Larry, I don't know. I guess I need an eye exam. This looks also the upper left in pic was done over a dry futures install too.
Malama, Yes I route right into the dry install as you see here. Once I add my own Fiber Glas Sock it becomes the holding chamber for Probox and I am off and running. If I would dig the Future box out the board would for sure have added weight because of the big foot print left by a Future Box which is 6" long, 2" bigger than a Probox of 4 inches.
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very nice
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very nice
board finished.
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It's funny how wind surfers don't keep their value. A 2000 dollar, two year old model sells for $300 dollars. Almost not worth repairing. That same company's sups keep way higher resale. If you are repairing and making windsurfers you got skills for sure. Chinook boxes are near nuke proof.
[/quote]
Both of those snapped boards were bought used for fairly cheap. They probably weren't even jumped that high when they died. The big air jumper pic is a pro and he's on a practically new board. He also knows how to land it well, but those hard landings all add up, and eventually they will wear out from the constant slamming loads. That first busted board was previously a Maui rental. My friend's board was previously a pro's board and pretty darn light. I bet that's also why he really liked it so much.
I think bench testing is a great way to help figure things out beforehand, but eventually it has to be seen if it will actually fly long term. Extreme conditions, extreme riders, and duration eventually determines and proves what really works and helps to evolve more intuitions.
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We should do destructive tests with SUPs.
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getsupngo,
The "ride it like a rental" sticker might have been a give away on its condition!!!
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Larry, I don't know. I guess I need an eye exam. This looks also the upper left in pic was done over a dry futures install too.
Malama, Yes I route right into the dry install as you see here. Once I add my own Fiber Glas Sock it becomes the holding chamber for Probox and I am off and running. If I would dig the Future box out the board would for sure have added weight because of the big foot print left by a Future Box which is 6" long, 2" bigger than a Probox of 4 inches.
Larry,
IS this new retro set up a cook book formula or individualized to customer specs or board length and width?? looks super clean as usual
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We should do destructive tests with SUPs.
I know several surfers who have chainsaws and would gladly do it. They would probably also like to see them run over by a log truck.
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getsupngo,
The "ride it like a rental" sticker might have been a give away on its condition!!!
Yeah, it still had the rental markings all over it.
They may have got their moneys worth out of the deals but were suddenly without a board and had to scramble for another.
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I keep thinking if DW had done his test with Larry Allison fins he could claim that in one day he knocked out both a Ninja and a Gladiator.
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Larry, I don't know. I guess I need an eye exam. This looks also the upper left in pic was done over a dry futures install too.
Malama, Yes I route right into the dry install as you see here. Once I add my own Fiber Glas Sock it becomes the holding chamber for Probox and I am off and running. If I would dig the Future box out the board would for sure have added weight because of the big foot print left by a Future Box which is 6" long, 2" bigger than a Probox of 4 inches.
Larry,
IS this new retro set up a cook book formula or individualized to customer specs or board length and width?? looks super clean as usual
Malama, There are 2 types of Quad placements. This placement here on this Firewire and JC Hawaii is for bigger surf down the line and the Hawaii Placement on one of Reid's boards above this thread is for more all around looser feel beach breaks.
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Thanks Larry,
Trying to get my head around how far forward the retro fits were placed. Will the aft adjustment get them back to to original placement? I know this is all personal preference, but on the retro fits are you trying to find some virgin foam for the install. The PSH fin placement is a perfect starting point in my experience for sups.
thanks for your help
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Thanks Larry,
Trying to get my head around how far forward the retro fits were placed. Will the aft adjustment get them back to to original placement? I know this is all personal preference, but on the retro fits are you trying to find some virgin foam for the install. The PSH fin placement is a perfect starting point in my experience for sups.
thanks for your help
Yes Malama, This is a good recipe my friend, which is impossible to do using Futures which have a big foot print and aliment in a Quad world becomes guessing at best. This is where adjustment becomes key to best performance in a multi cluster world like a Quad. Mahalo
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Thanks for flipping the picture. I totally understand and I see how it would work with my formula.
I'm sold.
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Update
I just tried the new FCS II fins in a probox.
All you have to do, is take a hacksaw and cut the tab off that extends beyond the front of the fin. Perfect fit.
Plus the tab is much bigger, making it stronger.
You loose some fore and aft adjustment though. But if really needed, you could just cut more of the tab off.
They are selling a lot of fins pairs, in the FCS II system. Good for us.