Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: Dwight (DW) on March 30, 2013, 06:47:36 PM
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http://ncpaddlesurfer.blogspot.com/2013/03/windsurf-progress.html (http://ncpaddlesurfer.blogspot.com/2013/03/windsurf-progress.html)
The video is here. My camera memory card ran out before the vacuum bagging started.
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Thanks for the illustration video! You seem so relaxed while glassing. What is the time period that you have once mixing has begun to in the bag? Keep the videos coming!
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WOW no mask in a closed room with resin ?? You are old school my man !! good Job :)
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Thanks for the illustration video! You seem so relaxed while glassing. What is the time period that you have once mixing has begun to in the bag? Keep the videos coming!
About 45 minutes. 2 layers in the bag.
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WOW no mask in a closed room with resin ?? You are old school my man !! good Job :)
I wear a full face respirator with tyvek hood during sanding. I have a skin sensitivity to epoxy only from sanding dust.
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Nice setup. I look very efficient.
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Can you give us some details on your mix?
Cloth weight and width?
Resin quantity? Brand? Must be slow resin?
You made that look just too easy. If you had seen me you would have been dismayed. I looked like a total clown when I tried my first and only wet out table. I think I will have to try again. I am really trying to get the weight down on my next boards.
Thanks for the video. We all appreciate seeing how to do things the right way.
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Can you give us some details on your mix?
Cloth weight and width?
Resin quantity? Brand? Must be slow resin?
Greenroom resin. Fast hardener. (Not California fast) They make two fast hardeners. The CA fast is for the pros only.
4 oz S (44 wide) Aerialite cloth
I pour 37 grams of resin per foot of cloth. So 9.5 ft of cloth required 350 grams of resin. I don't count harder in my calculations.
Always mix by weight, not volume. So get a scale. Weight the resin, multiply by 0.44 and this is how much hardener to add.
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WOW no mask in a closed room with resin ?? You are old school my man !! good Job :)
I wear a full face respirator with tyvek hood during sanding. I have a skin sensitivity to epoxy only from sanding dust.
Epoxy can seem hard enough to sand but it may not always be fully cured to sand it safely. That's when its really best to cover up. It gets more inert as it fully cures. I tend to let it cure some as it sands better and is less irritating.
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so 37 grams resin/foot = 111 grams per yard + 49 grams hardner = 160 grams per yard divided by 28 (28 grams per oz) = 5.7 oz of resin and hardner for 4 oz cloth. Seems perfect.
I need to find my old notes to see what my quantities were when I tried it. I think that I have the math correct. Please correct me if I am missing something here.
Thanks for posting.
I am surprised that is fast resin.
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WOW no mask in a closed room with resin ?? You are old school my man !! good Job :)
I wear a full face respirator with tyvek hood during sanding. I have a skin sensitivity to epoxy only from sanding dust.
Epoxy can seem hard enough to sand but it may not always be fully cured to sand it safely. That's when its really best to cover up. It gets more inert as it fully cures. I tend to let it cure some as it sands better and is less irritating.
I post cure at 110 degrees for 24 hours. Sands like a dream.
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I figure you're on top of it. I just know of some people that had severe reaction problems, mostly due to sanding uncured epoxy. Cured epoxy doesn't bother me but uncured can. I also like doing the thermal post cure.
Thanks for posting the video and all the great info.
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My turn for a dumb question. So I do my layup at around 70 deg. Then heat my shop to 110 deg? How soon after? I have some heaters that should be able to get it close to that. How do you heat it up?
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Great video there, D-dub... People really appreciate seeing what goes into the building of a surf/sup board.
This is my 50th year in surfing and I never tire of watching this stuff and how each "Master" has their own technique... Thanks for going through the hassle of filming your work... Paddle on, JD
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My turn for a dumb question. So I do my layup at around 70 deg. Then heat my shop to 110 deg? How soon after? I have some heaters that should be able to get it close to that. How do you heat it up?
Layup anywhere in the 70s is ideal.
The post cure takes place in my laundry room with a space heater. When the board is finished, but not sanded. Immediately after hot coat cures.
The local factory has a closet with a heater. The ideal post cure is 120 degrees for 24 hours. My heater trips at 110.
It makes the epoxy actually stronger. It raising the threshold, permanently, of where epoxy weakens from heat. It also makes the board ready to ride and full strength immediately.
The process of selling a board and telling the owner not to ride it for 2 weeks is the old way, and the wrong way. But I hear, some factories still don't post cure and tell their customers exactly that.
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Awesome as usual. One of these days. One criteria for the new house is a two car garage.
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I learned a lot from your video. Thanks for sharing!
Questions please...
1) What is the tube made out of and where do you get it?
2) What kind of plastic sheeting did you use on the table between layers?
3) Do you reuse the tube by wiping it down with acetone after using it, or do you have to throw it away?
4) Do you spackle your blanks before glassing?
5) Would you still use the tube method for laying down the glass even if you don't bag it?
Thanks
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I learned a lot from your video. Thanks for sharing!
Questions please...
1) What is the tube made out of and where do you get it?
2) What kind of plastic sheeting did you use on the table between layers?
3) Do you reuse the tube by wiping it down with acetone after using it, or do you have to throw it away?
4) Do you spackle your blanks before glassing?
5) Would you still use the tube method for laying down the glass even if you don't bag it?
Thanks
1) thin wall PVC sewer pipe.
2) 3mil from Walmart
3) NEVER use acetone with epoxy. I have two rolls. Set one aside. Let epoxy dry on the roll. No harm. Reuse pipe. Lightly sand if pipe gets lumpy. Been using the same pipes for years.
4) I spackle
5) yes
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Is a bagged board stronger than a non-bagged board, or just lighter?
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Another good safe option to clean up uncured epoxy is white vinger. I will soak the scissors after i use it to cut wetted clothe. I also use on hand and skin if it did get on me.  Acetone is to dangerous to use both for your health and fire risk(low flash point).
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Another good safe option to clean up uncured epoxy is white vinger. I will soak the scissors after i use it to cut wetted clothe. I also use on hand and skin if it did get on me.  Acetone is to dangerous to use both for your health and fire risk(low flash point).
I knew the dangers of acetone but was not aware of the benefit of the white vinegar. Thanks for the heads up!
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Vinegar works great.
I wrap some plastic around the roll up pipes when prepping the table plastic.
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Is a bagged board stronger than a non-bagged board, or just lighter?
Stronger
How much is debatable
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Saw a video once, not sure if here or swaylocks, but I have been unable to find it. It showed someone taking a hammer to samples on eps. One vac bag and one hand lay. The vac bag was much tougher. I wish I could find it.
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Saw a video once, not sure if here or swaylocks, but I have been unable to find it. It showed someone taking a hammer to samples on eps. One vac bag and one hand lay. The vac bag was much tougher. I wish I could find it.
It was me.
https://vimeo.com/6783446
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And as a comparison of bagged strength verses non-bagged strength, have you done the same bash test with 3 layers of 6 oz E on a non-bagged skin? Was there much of a difference in damage?
Saw a video once, not sure if here or swaylocks, but I have been unable to find it. It showed someone taking a hammer to samples on eps. One vac bag and one hand lay. The vac bag was much tougher. I wish I could find it.
It was me.
https://vimeo.com/6783446
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DW--thanks for re-posting that video. Do you vac-bag your boards now?
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Do you vac-bag your boards now?
Yes, I bag everything now.
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The above metrics work out to 5.7oz Resin / 4.0oz cloth for a ratio of 1.42X (Resin / Cloth)
I just finished a project using your "Laminating on a Table" method with Carbon. I ended up with 20 grams of Cloth and only 30 grams TOTAL added weight. This worked out to a ratio of 10 / 20 = 0.5X (Resin / Cloth).
I thought I might have botched the repair, and not whetted out the fiber enough. But, the patch was in the middle of formerly snapped carbon fiber paddle. 4 sessions later the patch (paddle) has held.
I since found evidence that this ratio may have been exactly correct for Prepreg.
The following link shows and ideal ratio of 35/65 for Resin to Cloth. Granted this was for Carbon, not Glass Thoughts?
http://fitwerx.com/carbon-fiber-quality-part-2-of-a-3-part-series-on-carbon-fiber-in-the-bike-industry (http://fitwerx.com/carbon-fiber-quality-part-2-of-a-3-part-series-on-carbon-fiber-in-the-bike-industry)
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The above metrics work out to 5.7oz Resin / 4.0oz cloth for a ratio of 1.42X (Resin / Cloth)
That doesn't match my math.
The true weight of my cloth is 3.6 oz. My resin usage is 90% of cloth weight. I used to be at a 1 to 1 ratio, but as my skills with the wetout table improved, I hit 0.9 to 1.
It basically boils down to how low can you go, and still know its fully wetted, no dry spots.
I've tried going lower, but it gets to be too much work and the risk of fabric damage increases.
I'm happy at 0.9 to 1 with a touch of extra resin left on the table.
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How many boards have you made now DW? I've been following your blog pretty much since the start....its on my Google start page...but not sure that's all of them. Your knowledge and methods seem like they go far beyond what the numbers would indicate. Awesome stuff, I want to be like you when I grow up.....and have a garage..... ;D
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The above metrics work out to 5.7oz Resin / 4.0oz cloth for a ratio of 1.42X (Resin / Cloth) -- Originally Quoted from Punasurf
That doesn't match my math.
The true weight of my cloth is 3.6 oz. My resin usage is 90% of cloth weight. I used to be at a 1 to 1 ratio, but as my skills with the wetout table improved, I hit 0.9 to 1.
Just to be painfully clear, when I referred to 'Resin' I was adding the weight of mixed epoxy, e.g. Resin + Hardener. In other words TOTAL Epoxy weight to Total Cloth weight.
My Carbon job resulted in 10 Grams of Epoxy Resin (Resin + Hardener) added to 20 Grams carbon cloth. Seemed to work.
1:1 I therefor assume for Fiberglass laminate would be total weight of Epoxy (Resin + Hardener) to Total Weight of Glass Cloth?
PS: The benefit that I observed with the Carbon was that when Laminating on a Table all these metrics seemed to work themselves out. In other words I started assuming a 1:1 final ratio and mixed up about 30% more Epoxy than Carbon cloth weight, so 1 (Carbon cloth):1.30 (epoxy). In the end the cloth picked up just 50% of the Epoxy by weight. Some epoxy was left in the pot, since the cloth appeared to be fully wetted out, and the remainder on the black plastic after I picked up the saturated cloth.
Ending ratio by weight: 1.0 (Carbon cloth) : 0.5 (Epoxy)
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Commentary from the sidelines: Beasho is measuring outputs - DW is measuring inputs. In Beasho's discussion his inputs 1.3:1 are in excess of those used by DW 0.9:1.
I would presume that the vacuum bagging bleed layer would soak up some resin too. Variation in end resin weights would also come from the cloth type as well as how much vacuum was applied and for how long, and how far gone the resin was before vacuum.
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How many boards have you made now DW?
Lost count. Maybe 30
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And is the risk of fabric damage because you'd have to squeegee the cloth too much?
I've tried going lower, but it gets to be too much work and the risk of fabric damage increases.
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And is the risk of fabric damage because you'd have to squeegee the cloth too much?
Yes. You might reach a point where you're trying to pull your only remaining puddle of resin 6 feet down the table, to reach your only remaining dry spot. At that point things are getting ridiculous and you're asking for trouble.
A little common sense, plus more experience doing it, and it all becomes obvious how much resin is just right.
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Do you use plastic squeegee's or the rubber kind? Isn't it a little harder to wet out S cloth over E?
Thanks
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Do you use plastic squeegee's or the rubber kind? Isn't it a little harder to wet out S cloth over E?
Thanks
I use the tan bondo spreaders. I've heard the yellow ones bleed sometimes. Tried the rubber ones once. Hated those.
My S wets out easier.
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Thanks again. Where do you buy those tan bondo spreaders? Home Depot?
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Thanks again. Where do you buy those tan bondo spreaders? Home Depot?
Walmart is my first stop. When they run out, its Home Depot.
Clean them with orange goop and scrap fiberglass cloth, as your cleaning rag. Clean your scissors the same way.
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DW, can you give us an idea on how much extra it cost to bag your boards? Cost of peal ply, bag, tape, etc. not including the vac pump set up? And where do you buy your supplies to vac seal? Thanks
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You beat me to it because I was going to ask him the same questions. ;) I was also wondering if you have a video showing the bagging process?
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Bagging videos here https://vimeo.com/nelsonfactory (https://vimeo.com/nelsonfactory)
This is the vacuum pump you need. I tried cheaper ones. They were terrible. I upgrade to this one. It's good. http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Excel-5-Continuous-Run-Vacuum-Press-System.html (http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Excel-5-Continuous-Run-Vacuum-Press-System.html)
I like this release ply for faster flip times. It can be pulled after 2 to 3 hours and you're ready to flip. http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=51576&familyName=Airtech+Dahlar+Bleeder+Bagging+Film+125 (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=51576&familyName=Airtech+Dahlar+Bleeder+Bagging+Film+125)
If you can wait overnight and flip, you can use this peel ply. It leaves a nicer surface finish. Econo-Ply J 1.6 oz. X 60 http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Vacuum_Bagging/vacuum_bagging.html (http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Vacuum_Bagging/vacuum_bagging.html)
Once your skills get good and resin usage becomes really low, the breather won't see much resin and you can reuse it. Otherwise breather cost is high. Econoweave 44 Breather 60 http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Vacuum_Bagging/vacuum_bagging.html (http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Vacuum_Bagging/vacuum_bagging.html)
I use 36" tubular bags.
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i used this pump, it a medical vacuum aspirator so they are built to run for a long time. Mine came with a glass bottle which i setup as a liquid/resin separator so resin/water fall into the container before entering the pump. I think i paid $30-40(+ $10 worth of fitting from lowes) for it and have ran it 8+ hr. It have a build in sensor that shut down when the motor gets too hot. It only happen once when i left it outside on a 100+ degree day but once i put it back in the shade it keep vacuuming. Cant beat it for the price
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gomco-Medical-Dental-Vacuum-Pump-Model-1180-/261196325929?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd083a429 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gomco-Medical-Dental-Vacuum-Pump-Model-1180-/261196325929?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd083a429)
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Lots of great information here - thanks!
I've been watching those Nelson Factory videos and its amazing how technical board making is now compared to when my friends and I as teenagers used to make our own surfboards in our parents garages and backyards.
Does anyone know why the shaper uses masking tape along the rail in this video while he's finishing the rails? (Fast forward to about 3:30) Nelson Factory Windsurfing Custom Boards No. 03 on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/3948411)
How much pressure do you need and for how long must the pump operate?
What do you think about this pump? http://www.harborfreight.com/air-vacuum-pump-with-r134a-and-r12-connectors-96677.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/air-vacuum-pump-with-r134a-and-r12-connectors-96677.html) Its only $16 at Harbor Freight. Its not standalone but will suck 4.2 CFM with a compressor set at 90 PSI. Has lots of good reviews too.
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i will get a actual vacuum pump instead of relying on your compressor(it will be really. For me, slowly vacuum out the bag, pull the bag tight the under opposite side of the wet lam. Trying to get the wet lam side as smooth as possible, that will less than the sanding need after the epoxy cure. My vacuum system have a leak somewhere so i just leave it on the whole night and turn it off the next morning. You want to keep the vacuum on until the epoxy set before turning it off.
also i think i pull about 7-10 psi, i have it on my notebook, if you pull too hard on a low density foam, you might crush the sharp rail.
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Does anyone know why the shaper uses masking tape along the rail in this video while he's finishing the rails? (Fast forward to about 3:30)
How much pressure do you need and for how long must the pump operate?
What do you think about this pump?
I think the tape is being used to protect the fragile 1# EPS. The core-cell bottom foam is like a rock compared to the EPS. It would be really hard to shape the rails without isolating each side while doing so.
With 1 lb EPS you can't exceed 10 in hg. Most use between 8 and 10 in hg. (It's not PSI)
With 1.5 lb foam I can go to 15, but usually stay near 10. If you hit the crush pressure, it turns your foam into a wrinkled mess. I crushed a test sample letting the pump go full vacuum.
Venturi vacuum generators are very loud. I've never used a tiny one. I've run a big one at the plant. It will blow your ears out and they consume huge arounds of compressor air. They are poor solutions for vacuum.
It works better with a good pump and enough CFM to make it easy. The one I use is quiet too.
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Shape distortion is something that can happen if you're not careful. Crushing is the really severe distortion. A stringer/stringers, a rocker table or a rocker stick helps to maintain precise rocker as the epoxy sets up. Then there's the issue of twist and unintended bottom contours like some added V and undesired concaves. This can still happen when there's only a single center stringer or with a rocker stick in the bag.
I've found that 1.5 lb. XPS can handle all the vacuum bag pressure my Gast pump can pull.
Gotta keep it very light with the EPS.
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so what you guys are saying is that using vbag we have to have a rocker template in the bag when bagging 1lb eps.
questions:
making 5m board.
I can add a 1mm stringer to my blank, would that be enough ? it's less work/ cost that making template because I have the veneer for the stringer.
I can even add 2 stringers without too much extra effort, because of the way I'm gluing up my blank fron builders eps. overkill?
once deck is laminated in the bag, I don't have to worry about distortion when laminating bottom ?
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I vacuum bag my boards using a bag i have made out of vacuum bag material -- or some folks sell tubes --- tape one end and slide the board in -- if you are bagging on a flat table you are making a lot of work -- my opinion --
It helps to have a second set of hands as after the board is wrapped in the blanket and taped snug -- a helper is there to help slide the board into the tube bag.
First ---Wet out your lam -- I do 2 layers of 6.5 oz free lap stagger the laps with the last one being a little longer (now I use Innegera first and layer of 6.5 over it) use slow resin so the Innegra will wet out --
drape on perferated peel ply -- Important ---There are two different size hole material -- small hole and larger -- so you can pull more or less resin ...I use the large hole--
Now---Wrap in the bleeder breather blanket --- the thickness of the blanket also will determine how much resin you pull out also --thin blanket and the resin will saturate the blanket faster leach through to the vac bag and stop --thicker blanket (almost 1/4 inch what I use) and you will pull more resin --Using a bigger hole perferated peel ply and a thicker blanket you don't have to worry too much about pulling too much pressure -- I pull 11 or so and have no crush spots -- (1.5 EPS) go over 15 with 1.5 and you are asking for trouble ---
But all this is a non issue if the perferated peel ply has bigger holes and the blanket is thick.... I have nice tight no void lams with very little sanding.
Sealing the blank (sand it smooth like ice) is very important if you are going to bag the board --
I spackle and sand --then i mix up a small batch of this slow kick resin ---I use a squeegie to keep the resin from sitting and being absorbed into the blank( put color in if you like) any resin that sits on the top (like in the rail area -- i scrape off with the squeegie (use the squeegie in reverse as a scraper) -- this gives you a seal barrier so a bunch of resin will not get pushed into the board when you bag---
A slick seal job gives you a slick glass job --i find-
Hope this helps --
aloha
willi