Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: tautologies on January 21, 2013, 10:24:32 PM
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hey so I am convinced. i am getting a simsup. I am actually getting a custom one. It looks so awesome and sooo different. Deck is all scooped out, and it is only 7'2'' Twinser with nutty fins. I am soo psyched. hahaha.
Sooo, now for the waiting...man I suck at that.
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Welcome to the weird club!
I hope 2013 will be the year of the SUP weirdos everywhere: do not get stuck in traditional shapes!
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Welcome to the weird club!
I hope 2013 will be the year of the SUP weirdos everywhere: do not get stuck in traditional shapes!
definitely!!!!
I will probably keep my 9'0'' hokua forever, and the 7'6'' hokua...and
I am still going to try to get a buddy to carry the 5'9'' but the sim board just looked too fun.
I'll post pics once it hit land..it is a pretty aggressive form.
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me too Tautologies-as if you couldnt tell from my simsup hyper-ventilating about Boludos board! ;)
prob gonna go with an Infinity Phoenix but with some tweaks for my size-etc..
gonna thin out nose and tail pretty good too-dont want that really fat butt thing goin on.
Not sure about the JET tail that Chill likes-gonna work it all out withy Dave
Most know i get a little kooky with custom paint (spicollisan comes to mind) but most likely gonna keep this pretty simple-i think.....
Post it up when you get it!!
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me too Tautologies-as if you couldnt tell from my simsup hyper-ventilating about Boludos board! ;)
prob gonna go with an Infinity Phoenix but with some tweaks for my size-etc..
gonna thin out nose and tail pretty good too-dont want that really fat butt thing goin on.
Not sure about the JET tail that Chill likes-gonna work it all out withy Dave
Most know i get a little kooky with custom paint (spicollisan comes to mind) but most likely gonna keep this pretty simple-i think.....
Post it up when you get it!!
Nice!!! You know though, it is all about trying something to see if it works..now it is an expensive error to make if you are wrong...but still how bad can it possibly be hehe.
For me it was one of those things when you see it you wanna try it..and then the board was sort available so I jumped on it. I can't wait to get it in house. Obviously I do not know, but I am thinking it will be a great addition to my setup.
If it does not work for me I'll try to attach my foil on it :-) SIMSUP Foil boarding. ;D
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hey so I am convinced. i am getting a simsup.
Me to. I got my new Kings custom Sim SUP yesterday. I am so stoked. I surfed it this morning... I am sold on the design these things work great in the pocket. yeah baby.
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I have been reassured that mine will be ready next week! 7'4" x 28" x 4" full carbon fiber..... ;)
We should have a SIMSup party!
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Awesome guys! surfnpoppy, send some pix and dims. Have fun with it!
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I'm jumping in too. I'm thinking the L41 S2 or 3 custom to my size and with my crappy balance and need for stability in mind. I still need to talk it out and see what dims make sense for me. I'd like to get it down to at least 8-6, thinking about 8-0 though.
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I promise... I didn't email dimensions to L41... I promise!
SL
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I've said this elsewhere, but the large surface area of the Simsups really seems to increase stability dramatically more than the standard dimension spec would imply.
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I just picked up mine.
Ill post pics. It looks nuts. Some killer fins on it too :)
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I'm jumping in too. I'm thinking the L41 S2 or 3 custom to my size and with my crappy balance and need for stability in mind. I still need to talk it out and see what dims make sense for me. I'd like to get it down to at least 8-6, thinking about 8-0 though.
When you talk it out, don't let those Cali boys shape the rails too thin or dome the deck. They have no idea what surfing in typical east coast wind blown seas are like ;) ;D. Their victory at sea conditions, are glassy clean to us ;D ;D ;D
I got cocky and shaped some thin railed Cali style boards. I couldn't even stand on them. Can't even give the board away here.
Back to my standard FLAT deck MEDIUM thick rails. East coast style baby ;D
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Hey DW, why doesn't a domed deck make sense for east coast? Is it only because it raises the center of gravity? I'd like to hear your ideas for an east coast specific simsup.
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Hey DW, why doesn't a domed deck make sense for east coast? Is it only because it raises the center of gravity? I'd like to hear your ideas for an east coast specific simsup.
Flat decks are just more stable than domed, regardless of volume.
I design my decks to be flush with the water, or near flush. Never high and dry.
There really is no need to dome a deck. Due to SUPs being wide, it is no problem to thin rails without doing dome. I've taken my rails all the way down to prone-board-thin without doing steps or dome. I maintain a minimum flat deck width of 16" to 18" (depending on board width) on all my boards at the handle. BTW, if you're standing with feet wider spaced than 18" you're doing that wrong too. Wide feet = unstable. Feel free to dome the tail, but never around the handle.
Until you experience it, it won't make sense. Blane (PSH) has always understood this. The others, Naish, Starboard, are finally "getting it" and doing flat decks.
BTW, its not just the Cali guys who get it wrong for us east coast guys, there are a bunch of shapers in the Cocoa Beach area still doing dome. Shocking to me.
Quite a few people are baffled by the small boards I ride at my weight, height and age. Now you know how I do it.
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I'm jumping in too. I'm thinking the L41 S2 or 3 custom to my size and with my crappy balance and need for stability in mind. I still need to talk it out and see what dims make sense for me. I'd like to get it down to at least 8-6, thinking about 8-0 though.
When you talk it out, don't let those Cali boys shape the rails too thin or dome the deck. They have no idea what surfing in typical east coast wind blown seas are like ;) ;D. Their victory at sea conditions, are glassy clean to us ;D ;D ;D
I got cocky and shaped some thin railed Cali style boards. I couldn't even stand on them. Can't even give the board away here.
Back to my standard FLAT deck MEDIUM thick rails. East coast style baby ;D
Absolutely...my South county 9'er is what I measure stability against. It makes even me look good. I really don't want to give up much stability since it's critical to my enjoyment. I also need to stress how different it is for me. What some folks think is very stable is still tippy to me.
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I promise... I didn't email dimensions to L41... I promise!
SL
Is that on the record! 8)
rainy day here in socal-think ill go visit Dave today....
all you guys ordering new simsups is killing me!....
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I promise... I didn't email dimensions to L41... I promise!
SL
Leper,
Let me know when you want to try out my board. You may be a little on the heavy side for it but this board will still be easy for you to balance on. Actually I'm a bit hesitant to letting you try it out. Maybe if you can draft up a document signed by You and I saying that you agree to give me my board back after you demo it. ;D
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I promise... I didn't email dimensions to L41... I promise!
SL
Is that on the record! 8)
rainy day here in socal-think ill go visit Dave today....
all you guys ordering new simsups is killing me!....
Juan, rainy days are when all the shapers really make the money. Give me a report on how it goes with Master Dave.
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BTW, if you're standing with feet wider spaced than 18" you're doing that wrong too. Wide feet = unstable.
This is so true, but counter-intuitive to some of the other sports people are familiar with where the opposite is true such as snowboarding or skiing. It feels unnatural at first, but the idea is it decreases the leverage on the rails thereby not magnifying the effect of minor lapses of balance. The key is to be loose and "go with the flow", at first it will probably feel twitchy and less stable, but if you just relax and let it happen you'll stay drier!
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...And Kirk got back to me at 5:30 this morning. Talk about service.
Then I was looking at old shape files from Corran... and a cutback that he made me three years ago was basically a (too) low volume simmons inspired board... from the entry rocker, to the deep and wide vee off the tail, to the slight diamond tail... to the wide tail... from the wide nose... de ja vu! (Adam snapped it at well over head Sunset last winter).
Fifteen e-mails back and forth later, Corran is firing up the CAD machine and the planer... we are going to flip the nose just slightly for verticality... but otherwise keep the same entry rocker. Do it at about 98 liters.
So in addition to Kirk, Dave D, and Dave B... we are going to get Corran A's take on the SimSUP design.
Because of the flip tip and my irritating contributions (likely ignored) to the shape, I am going to either call it the TimSUP or the Strandlubber.
SUP design 2013, moving forward by looking back!
Can't wait to try your board Boludo... I will draft something up... but there will be some significant loop holes. :)
Back to work.
SL
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As an East Coast simsup owner I could not agree more! Because at my height/wt and skill level I wanted more than a "clean-conditions bluebird day" kind of board. My Simsup has full (but sharp) rails, a relatively flat deck and super wide n' flat square tail.
I'm jumping in too. I'm thinking the L41 S2 or 3 custom to my size and with my crappy balance and need for stability in mind. I still need to talk it out and see what dims make sense for me. I'd like to get it down to at least 8-6, thinking about 8-0 though.
When you talk it out, don't let those Cali boys shape the rails too thin or dome the deck. They have no idea what surfing in typical east coast wind blown seas are like ;) ;D. Their victory at sea conditions, are glassy clean to us ;D ;D ;D
I got cocky and shaped some thin railed Cali style boards. I couldn't even stand on them. Can't even give the board away here.
Back to my standard FLAT deck MEDIUM thick rails. East coast style baby ;D
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Hey DW, why doesn't a domed deck make sense for east coast? Is it only because it raises the center of gravity? I'd like to hear your ideas for an east coast specific simsup.
Flat decks are just more stable than domed, regardless of volume.
can someone explain to me WHY a flat deck is more stable?
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I'm no board designer or shaper but generally speaking, It's about volume distribution.One aspect is that boards with flatter decks seem to have the volume spread outward more towards the rails. Thicker rails = more side to side stability. Another is that a board having a domed deck will have a higher center of gravity.
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can someone explain to me WHY a flat deck is more stable?
Can't.
That's why so many people don't get it. You have to experience it.
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Disclaimer: I don't know jack shit about board design.
I can offer conjecture:
-Flat surfaces are easier to balance on.
-Flat decks lower the riders' center of gravity.
As others have noted, one only really needs ~20-23" of flat surface dedicated to standing area. This leaves several inches per side which can be dedicated to tapering the flat deck down to the rail. Cardiff's 7'7 SB Pro does exactly this. I, an ultimate layman know-nothing, don't see a downside to this approach.
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I promise... I didn't email dimensions to L41... I promise!
SL
Is that on the record! 8)
rainy day here in socal-think ill go visit Dave today....
all you guys ordering new simsups is killing me!....
No kidding!!! Just picked up my new board from Chelu just last week, ridden it four times, and now want to order one of the S3s. :-\
Guess I've finally figured out one of the drawbacks of reading here......finding to many "I wants", with not enough "I got the cash" to satisfy all of them. :'( :D
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can someone explain to me WHY a flat deck is more stable?
I have flat to concave deck on my kiteboard...and actually I think the hokua has a fairly flat deck in the paddle area...at first a little unusual, but feels easier to handle in a way. I think maybe your feet are calibrated for flat surface, and will maybe therefore provide better balance response between water to board input than a domed deck?
I am guessing here. No science behind it. puuuure speculation.
Funny thing..my simsup has a huge concave on the deck. I am curious how that will work. the board looks crazy and fun.
I gotta find a pad to put on the beautiful bamboo... :-(
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can someone explain to me WHY a flat deck is more stable?
Simple, it's all about weight distribution. A flat deck evenly distributes your weight between both feet evenly and across the bottom of your feet. A domed deck shifts that weight to the outside of your foot, where, if you read previous posts, that weight becomes more unstable. Thing of it as sliding/rolling your ankle to the outside, where do you get the "bite". Which begs the question: Would a concave deck have the opposite effect and makes things more stable?
It also raises another point - Starboard claims the flat deck increases stability at speed as it should, but the downside is that for the same reasons a domed deck is unstable standing, I believe them to be a bit more responsive while surfing. In smaller waves this is probably useful, in larger waves the added stability probably outweighs this though.
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Hey DW, why doesn't a domed deck make sense for east coast? Is it only because it raises the center of gravity? I'd like to hear your ideas for an east coast specific simsup.
Flat decks are just more stable than domed, regardless of volume.
can someone explain to me WHY a flat deck is more stable?
More volume = more stable... (in the traditional sense of course). Add volume and width and its even more stable. Instability comes from a rail diving down, the board sinking and then you loosing balance and falling off. Volume, and volume away from the center line, increases stability.
It takes 8lbs of pressure to sink one gallon of air. Lets assume for this purpose that your board is pure air (no material to make the foam as its close enough for this). If you weigh 200lbs, you need a MINIMUM of 100ltr in your board to have neutral floatation. This is just to float you with the very top of the board right at water level.
Now, stability is not the same as float, but they are related. Stability comes from the ability of the board to "push back" at you when you push down on it. at 100ltr, 50lts is on each side of the stringer. So it takes 100lbs of pressure (weight if you like) to push the right rail into the water. If you're standing centered on the board you're good. As you loose balance (lets say to the right) so you transfer more than 50% of your weight to that rail. Now you have more weight on the rail than the volume is able to push back against, and so it sinks. The more it sinks, the more you loose your balance, and the more weight you transfer onto that already sunk rail, and it sinks more... and more... until you either fall over, OR the "center" of the boards volume passes the 'tilt" point and it flips over (and then you fall).
However, its not that simple. Its not just about how much volume is on each side of the stringer. its also about how FAR it is from the stringer (moment arm), and how much of it is how far from the stringer.
If 70% of my right sides volume is within the first 6" of the board (measured away from the stringer) and only 30% is 15" from the stringer (on a 30" wide board), and I'm standing 10" away from the stringer, then my foot is already outside of the area that has the most foam/floatation. Therefore less pressure (weight) is required to sink the rail.
So... a board that has a lot of rocker, or a lot of outline curve, is going to have less volume out away from the stringer to push back at me than a board with wide ends, low rocker (low rocker engages that volume sooner as its already on the waters surface - rockered boards have a certain amount of the volume lifted out of the water and it only engages after the board starts to lean over). Boards with pinched rails and deck crown are going to have less volume to push back at you.
So... what does this mean?
A 25" wide 9' board that has wide ends and a flat deck with full rails and is 100ltr will be more stable than a 30" wide 9' board with dramatically pulled in ends and pinched rails that has 120ltrs.
But this is overly simplistic... standing height affects stability. For every 1/2" you move up, you need to add on average about 1" per side of width )this is dependent on rocker, width, outline and so on, but its about this) to have the same overall stability, so you get quickly reducing returns on increased volume from increased thickness. Also, as your board gets shorter, so you introduce a new dimension of instability -end to end sinking which compounds the side to side instability. As you get closer to the "critical" volume for your weight (you and board combined) so reduction in length has an exponential affect on overall stability, and thus moving more volume towards the ends of the board becomes paramount to maintaining that stability.
One solution is to stand closer to the stringer. While this puts you in a position of feeling like you're always "slightly wobbly", its also harder for you to put the kind of pressure on the rails that causes them to sink, as your weight is centered. Closer feet, kung fu style, will allow you to have much less instability as you're not pushing out on the rails. Pulled in ends, more rocker, pinched rails are all benefits of a tight standing stance as YOU loose YOUR moment-arm of pressure to push on the rails, and thus the board needs less of that moment-arm to push back.
Wide boards, wide ends, flat decks, full rails, low rocker ALL increase stability if you stand with a wide flat stance. The downside is a massive reduction in board performance. As your stance narrows, so you can quickly reduce volume, and more significantly, reduce how far that volume is located away from the central part of the board, and thus shape the board, with a view of more surfing in mind rather than paddling (stability) in mind.
Make sense?
Corran
Narrow stance lets you have a smaller, narrower more progressive shape overall.
(http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/205736_10151688272764128_1188904895_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/523078_10151688272759128_1624727301_n.jpg)
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Makes great sense and is a damn good explanation. Thanks. As a customer it really pays to be well informed on this tradeoff issue as I strive towards being able to stand on something I can come close to surfing like I did on a prone board.
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Make sense?
Corran
Makes excellent sense. Great explanation.....wish I had this info a month or so ago, when I was sitting, design my new board with Chelu.
While I'm still VERY happy with the board, the above write up explains a couple things I've noticed about it, and I may have done a couple things just slightly different. (http://www.baseball-fever.com/images/smilies/nod.gif)
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Not for nothin', but standing parallel on a narrow board is quite difficult compared to "Ninja Style". With my feet in a semi-surf stance, I can lean fore, aft, and then adjust side-to-side by pushing on my toes and heels.
Also, narrower boards feel smaller because they respond quicker to rider inputs while standing around or paddling. Less of the board bucking you off (you reacting to it), and more of it reacting to where you want it to go.
That all being said, the Sims-Sups look deceivingly big. :)
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Great feedback from everyone. I suppose ultimately it's like DW said, it has to be experienced.
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Not for nothin', but standing parallel on a narrow board is quite difficult compared to "Ninja Style". With my feet in a semi-surf stance, I can lean fore, aft, and then adjust side-to-side by pushing on my toes and heels.
Also, narrower boards feel smaller because they respond quicker to rider inputs while standing around or paddling. Less of the board bucking you off (you reacting to it), and more of it reacting to where you want it to go.
That all being said, the Sims-Sups look deceivingly big. :)
I do the ninja groove too. It's pretty much required on the heroine chic Mach 1.
SL
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(http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/395483_428941330508910_884176868_n.jpg)
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Corran's just explained why I'm screwed, tall, heavy, and a wide stance for my crappy balance.... >:(
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I'm with you Stone. Just wondering if I narrow my stance up and go a little more surf stance if that'll work me towards better stability overall and on the next SUP.
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Corran's just explained why I'm screwed, tall, heavy, and a wide stance for my crappy balance.... >:(
Hey at least you have a good excuse...I just have crappy balance :D Oh and heavy...
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I forgot old... ::)
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Bumping this thread. Is everyone going stinger less on these boards. All the L41 Simsups look like they are stringerless. Thinking about jumping on the bandwagon but not sold on stringless. What say you on durability and dents so far
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My L 41 simsup is 2x6 oz bottom, 3x6 oz top w/deck patch stringerless. This was considered a heavier layup. Board weighs under 18 lbs.
I've slammed the rails pretty good and the worst I have gotten was a few small spider cracks from paddle hits which I proactively sand and epoxy over when I see more than one. Never had a ding or major repair.
No noticeable dents anywhere (deck included) after a year.
Not as tough and durable as my Fanatic Allwave or all the Starboards I have owned but pretty good.
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jd,
I've only had my L41 a short time but I've been out many times with it. I can tell you this, the board feels extremely durable. I've had some really bad whacks that made me cringe. I looked over my board and couldn't even find a mark. I have 2 layers top and bottom with one deck patch layer. Extremely pleased with the durability and the board feels pretty stiff. My next one I am going lighter on the glassing and carbon on the rails to compensate for the light glassing, otherwise I would not do the carbon rails.
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The four SIMSUP models look similar in dimensions and general shape. Their web site explains the positives of the models as one goes from 1 to 4 (higher performance, etc.). What are the negatives? In other words, if model 4 is the latest & greatest, why would anyone buy a new #1-3?
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just have a minute to respond but someone else can chime in with better details.
Each version goes a little more progressive from the simmons inspired design. So S1 would be the closest to the simmons design. S4 would be more the progressive style. So the 4 has a tad more curvey outline with a little more tail rocker. I wanted that style of board for my style of riding. One is not better than the other, it's just different options depending on what you like. If I were to have a 2 board L41 quiver, my next would be an S2 at 6'10" x 28 x 4 around 90L. S1 carries a tad more volume than the S2 and so on to S3 and S4.
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Bumping this thread. Is everyone going stinger less on these boards. All the L41 Simsups look like they are stringerless. Thinking about jumping on the bandwagon but not sold on stringless. What say you on durability and dents so far
Pretty sure you can get the L41 SIMSUPs with or without stringers. I think they use basswood.
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The four SIMSUP models look similar in dimensions and general shape. Their web site explains the positives of the models as one goes from 1 to 4 (higher performance, etc.). What are the negatives? In other words, if model 4 is the latest & greatest, why would anyone buy a new #1-3?
In simple terms I think it goes something like this (referring back to the excellent discussion on this thread re stability, volume, width, etc. especially re trade-offs). The S1 is the most stable and least high performance oriented of the series. On the other end, the S4 is the least stable and best performer of the series. Each step along the series adds performance features and slightly decreases stability. So really, there's a SIMSUP model available for every surfer to choose from based upon their physical skills and physical attributes. Add to that a discussion with the shaper who can fine tune the board to meet the surfer's exact needs, wants and abilities.
The overall wide plan shape of the Simmons inspired SIMSUPs assures stability and (this is important) is what allows the boards to be so short and maneuverable but still maintain their stability. Performance on an S1 is increased over conventional, longer SUPs due to the fact that (if nothing else) it's so short! Add in more performance enhancements as found on the S2 and S3 and you still maintain stability (slightly decreased for each board along the series) but performance skyrockets.
Making this personal...I've owned all the SIMSUP models except the S4 which I have surfed and would own but it's too unstable for me based upon my skill level and the fact that I'm 66 years old. The S4 is just too much work to stand on, and it doesn't leave me with enough energy to complete my typical 2-4 hour sessions. In the same way, surfers really need to consider their strengths and weaknesses when talking to the shaper about their new board.