Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: TallDude on December 16, 2012, 09:56:38 PM
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It's been years coming, but it's finally happening. Four years ago I designed this unlimited for myself. I had Hobie build it, and I learned a lot in the process. The finished board was designed for someone over 250#. The more I raced, the more weight I lost. I was soon too light for the board. Hobie had glassed it for durability more than racing, so at 37# it was on the heavy side. Everyone said to just sell it, and make another one. I tryed, but for what people wanted to pay for it, I would end up paying another $1,500. at least for the board I wanted. My board had plenty of foam / volume that could be cut out, and ultimately get the board I want out of it. The bottom was S-Glass, and the deck was carbon. So I decided to reuse the deck, and re-work the bottom and the rails. So here we go.....
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I started the design in AutoCad, then plotted it out full size to make my templates.
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Now off with the deck pad.
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Pad came off easy with that nice multi-tool.
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Next was the mock up.
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Now I sanded through the glass were I intend to lap it. I might add that I found a ton of spackle under the glass. It was almost an 1/8" thick.
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Then I started to peel the glass. Because of all the spackle, the glass peeled relatively easy and clean.
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Once I got all the S-glass off the rails and bottom, I weighed it. 14# of glass!!! on the bottom alone....
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Positioned my template.
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It's time to crack open a beer and start cutting....
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Lets get rid of some width and volume.....
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Rough out line is cut, and I'm feeling the speed......... Bottom is next week, I hope.
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This really look like an interessting project, 26 ' wide sounds good, have you got an idea of the volumen of your re-shape?
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Looks awesome. You're a brave man ;D
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Talldude,your hardcore!
Looks like its going well..great thread.
One thing I learned working production board building(the hard way) is laying the power pad face down(like pic attached to grinder) or on its side will cause the fine thin metal in the pad to bend,its pretty much done after that.
Just tryin to help out :)
Shawn
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I like your reasoning to do this. What length for the remodel?
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Nice, keep posting your progress and it's cool watching this from start to finish !!
Great job, so Far....
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Tall dude
Some crazy stuff,
I Liked seeing the weight after you stripped it makes me think of DW's way of glassing pre wetting out the cloth to save weight.
Are you still drinking beers?
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Can't wait to see the finished product
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Ok, I finally got over the flu, and got some time to do some shaping!!! Here we go. As I approached the shaping, I realized the noise from my planer, router, etc. power tools was going to probably be to loud for night time shaping. Plus I couldn't find my hotwire. So I cut the shape and rocker with hand saws, scaped, filed, and sanded all with non-power tools.
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And of couse the shaping companion! As it sits, with the original carbon deck still in place, it weighs 16#'s. I'm hoping with a micro bubble sealer, one layer 4oz carbon fiber, and an extra strip of carbon fiber the full length of the rails will total another 6 or 7 pounds. 22# to 25# total is the target......
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Great work. This is one heck of a project. I have to admit, when I first saw this, I thought 'why not just get a new blank?" But it looks like the shape worked out great and you saved the cost of a new blank and a carbon deck.
I think the tail needs a Bass label lam'd in the glass.
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Awesome project! Very inspiring. I've got 2-3 foam monsters in the basement...
Keep it up and post pics.
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Ok. So I'm finally making some progress again. I'm ordering the carbon fiber cloth this week. If all goes well, I'll be glassing the following week. I ended up getting a piece of Divinycell foam to reinforce the fin box. The piece was 3/4" thick so I glued two pieces together to make it 1-1/2" thick. I Gorilla glued the rigid foam in. Then I routed out the fin box slot, plumb and lined the fin box, and epoxy'd it in. Next is some detail sanding (which seems to never stop) and spackle. I like using a laser to line everything up, and check my rocker. I wasn't that happy with the nose, so I reshaped it. I like it better now. I can see the end in sight.
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Good God man, that's one heck of a project.... (http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/images/smilies/jaw-dropping.gif)
I must say I'm quite impressed TD!!
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Ok so I'm back at it. Finished shaping it. I spackled it, and sealed it with micro balloons. I know it's basically double sealing it, but after talking to Mark Johnson of Hobie ( another neighbor of mine. I love Capo Beach.) he said they learned early on that an extra 6 oz. or so is well worth it. The spackle and very thin epoxy w/ micro balloons, added 1 pound. I'm at 17 pounds as it sits. We start glassing tomorrow.
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Very cool. I have a thoroughly trashed F18 with an internal carbon box that I'm thinking of peeling and reshaping. I'd like it a little narrower and a little rounder in the rails. Once I finish painting Dianes section of the warehouse that might be project one.
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Nice job! Can't wait for the final result.
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Pomobill can you elaborate on the internal carbon box...does it hove a hollow box at its core wrapped with EPS?
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Yup. It was a direction Mark tried some time ago but didn't follow up on. Semi-cusom hollow.
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Thanks for the info PonoBill...as soon as I read carbon box my mind went straight to hollow box center...makes so much sense...might not make as much sense of the production builders working out of a mold, but for back yard builders wanting to make a one off...it holds a lot of possibilities....heck the money you could save by using 2"X4'X8' sheets of foam over the box/core as apposed to buying a 14'-20' solid block of foam would go a long way in offsetting the price of the carbon. The box could also give great longitudinal stiffness...
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wow cool thread. I remember seeing the original on craigs list forever. I always thought it was a cool looking board.
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Today was a lot of work. The top is done, minus the hot coat. I'm getting schooled by the master glasser (an my neighbor) Danny Brawner. The finest glassing instruction one could ask for. Plus he's a super cool guy. I mix, and spread. He stays in front of me telling what and what not to do. Tomorrow we wet table the bottom. I've been able to get my shop a little over 90 degs, and the epoxy is kicking hard once I get the heat on. I felling pretty comfortable the layup process. The carbon fiber is not easy to work with. The weave wants to spread apart, so you have to watch your direct with the squeegee....
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I forgot to add, the board now weighs 20.5 pounds. I used 2- 1/2 quarts of epoxy total. A gain of 3.5 pounds from the sealed blank. We well see how the bottom weighs out.
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Day 4, Bottom has one layer of 5.8 oz carbon fiber and 1 layer of 2 oz glass. The board now weighs 26 pounds. After the wet tabled carbon went on, the board was 24 pounds. I think if I had wet tabled the 2 oz glass layer, I might have saved 6 oz. All that is left is a hot coat. I don't really want to add any more weight, but it needs a hot coat in some areas. The nose and tail will need a little more detail glass work. All the laps with a lot of angles takes more time than we had to work the whole board. As I said, the carbon weave is hard to keep in tact when you are squeegeeing it, let alone just handling it. The carbon fiber edges, once setup in the epoxy, become razor sharp. My hands and finger tips are a bunch of healing wounds. It's almost there. Hot coat tomorrow. I know there is surf, but I'm try not to think about it. I have to get this board done....
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Wow. Just wow. Amazing work! Go the distance!
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Interesting project. Nice outcome by the looks of it. A remodeled board...very cool!
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I'm looking forward (as I know you are) to seeing the final board. Kudos to you and your ambition!
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I sanded and sanded for at least 3 hours. Vacuuming between passes. There were a few bumps that I sanded too far, and had to re-glass those spots. Having the layer of 2 oz. really helps for sanding. You don't want to sand into the carbon fiber, because it ruins it's structural integrity. Today I spent a good amount of time fine tuning the nose, tail, and around the fin box. I used a little 5 min. epoxy gel to fill some small holes, then glassed over it with a piece of 2 oz. For the hot coat, I used additive "F" in the epoxy. It's a wax that allow the epoxy to flow evenly, and make a final sanding layer. I'm not going to do a gloss coat. After I sanded the board is was back to 25 lbs. The hot coat might put another pound on it, we'll see.
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Looks stealth... now tell us how it works. You did a fantastic job of keeping the weight down. That's hard.
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Great project, thanks for sharing.
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Yesterday I masked the transition from the bottom hot coat to the soon to be top hot coat. I ran the high-temp mask right where I wanted the lap to take place. Then put some blue mask a 1/4" in front of the high temp mask to create a sanding edge. I then sanded some of the earlier hot coat off so the new top hot coat will bond. I then pulled the blue mask off and it left a small lap line. Then I hot coated the top and let it cook.
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After baking the hot coat at 92 deg for 18 hrs, I could not resist paddling it before doing the finish sand & paint. So stuck a fin on it and some scrap deck pad and headed to the water. The racks on my new (to me) used Element are closer together than the racks on my old car, so I didn't drive fast.
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Took it to the beach and WOW! this board is knifey fast....... It pierces through the swells like they were air. It's a little tippier at 25" wide, but very stable if you keep your speed up. I'm just totally stoked!!!!!!!! The clouds have parted.....
I'll get it sand/polished by a pro next week, then paint the deck. Working on a graphic now.
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Looks killer fast. Do you have any vents in it? A $25 vent may be well worth it.
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Yes I have a vent. It was actually about the only thing left from the original board. I get the wide flange vents directly from the Hobie warehouse for $10 ea. Super easy to install.
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Man, nice work. That's a serious project.
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Great job.. Looks awesome.
DJ
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Crikey tall dude!
That's a heck of a project. Well executed indeed!
SL
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What an awesome makeover!
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That thing looks like a blowdart! You have the balance of a gymnast too, albeit a really tall one. ;)
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Nice work! My friend has one of those elements. Too bad the roof racks are not adjustable. He bought a t-style rack that fits into the towing receiver so we could safely transport our 17' downwind raceboards.
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Thanks guys for your interest and kind remarks.
I'm waiting for my buddy to finish sand it. He sands for Lost, Basham, etc. He's busy non-stop. I just have to flash the $$ cash, and lead him to my board ::) I know he'll make it look golden.
The roof rack is my next project. I'd like to modify the factory rack so it extends closer to he back of the car. I might just bolt a custom low-profile rack to the factory rack. I thought about making it wider to mount 2 boards side by side, but that would create more uplift force on the rack. I might just stack the boards with foam spacers. The hitch w/ the T-bar is a good approach too.
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I used additive "F" in the epoxy. It's a wax that allow the epoxy to flow evenly, and make a final sanding layer.
Minor correction. The wax thing is exclusive to polyester resin. Additive F is Xylene, no wax. It helps make RR sand better.
If you ever get a chance to try Greenroom resin. Do it. No additive F required. A more idiot proof resin. Less yellowing, less blush, etc.
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DW..I have used RR resin for decades...but never with additive F...I have used the solvent Xylene before for other purposes and it really nasty stuff (headache in a can)...I haven't ever had a reason to try and see what Xylene does to EPS but I wouldn't think it would've pretty... So clue me in on how EPS reacts to RR epoxy with additive "F"? Will it melt the foam if it makes any direct contact? Never had issues with sanding RR epoxy...and it has always flowed out well for me without additives.
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DW..I have used RR resin for decades...but never with additive F...I have used the solvent Xylene before for other purposes and it really nasty stuff (headache in a can)...I haven't ever had a reason to try and see what Xylene does to EPS but I wouldn't think it would've pretty... So clue me in on how EPS reacts to RR epoxy with additive "F"? Will it melt the foam if it makes any direct contact? Never had issues with sanding RR epoxy...and it has always flowed out well for me without additives.
I haven't used additive F either. But I did find the tech sheet for it somewhere on the RR web site awhile back, and found out it was 90 something percent Xylene.
I post cure, so mine sand like a dream. I think most people don't post cure.
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Yes, the RR web site MSDA sheet on Additive "F" says its 85% Xylene.
Also says...
--------------- HEALTH HAZARD DATA --------------------
Health hazards: Vapor is irritating to nose and throat. Prolonged exposure may cause pulmonary edema. Skin contact causes local defatting of the skin which will cause irritation and chaffing. Long term exposure may cause CNS disturbance and damage to liver and kidneys.
Signs and symtoms of exposure: CNS disturbence, dizziness, headache, stupor, coma and death.
Medical conditions generally aggrivated by exposure: Impaired kidney and liver function . Preexsisting eye, skin and resperitory conditions may be aggravated.
Ahhh....Yea...I think I'll stick to the post cure as well...sounds like a case of "If it ain't broke don't fix it".
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From our friends at wikipedia
Xylene is used as a solvent. In this application, the mixture of isomers is often referred to as xylenes or xylol. Solvent xylene often contains a small percentage of ethylbenzene. Like the individual isomers, the mixture is colorless, sweet-smelling, and highly flammable. Areas of application include printing, rubber, and leather industries. It is a common component of ink, rubber, adhesive,[9] and leather industries. In thinning paints and varnishes, it can be substituted for toluene where slower drying is desired, and thus is used by conservators of art objects in solubility testing.[10] Similarly it is a cleaning agent, e.g., for steel, silicon wafers, and integrated circuits. In dentistry, xylene can be used to dissolve gutta percha, a material used for endodontics (root canal treatments). In the petroleum industry, xylene is also a frequent component of paraffin solvents; used when the tubing becomes clogged with paraffin wax.
I've used xylenes based thinners in furniture refinishing because it removes built up wax, just like our friends in the petrochemical industry do. It's a component of gasoline and many other commonly used hydrocarbon liquids. It's one of a few targeted pollutants frowned upon by the AQMD so it's usage in California is near the bottom of a long steep decline. Cheers. :)
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From what i remember the additive F have wax in them, that is why in the winter time i have to slightly warm it up with my hand and shake it to dissolve the wax. I remember using it on EPS and have no problem, since you are using a very small percentage. By the time you finish mixing, majority of the xylene will evaporate leaving the wax(surfacing agent) in the epoxy. Without using xylene to dissolve the wax, you get solid wax which can't be mix with epoxy. You can also make your own additive F base on this:
http://www.swaylocks.com/node/1024373 (http://www.swaylocks.com/node/1024373)
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Ucycle...Thanks for the info & link...I would never thought of putting wax in epoxy...No issue with paper loading up with straight RR...would think the wax might load up the paper a little....
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We sanded today. My shop is a total mess. We had the dueling sanders going, and I'm happy with the sanding. I think I added a little to much of the additive 'F' when I hot coated the bottom, because you can see it even after the sanding. I mixed the first batch perfect, but we ran a little short and had to make a small batch. I mixed a smaller batch, but additive 'F' had become slightly gelled. It seems like it mixed in, but my ratio was probably off. The additive 'F' has a very short shelf life (3 to 4 days). More than likely the xylene evaporating, and leaving just the wax.
There are a few small spots where I sanded into the carbon fabric, so I'll have to do some touching up.
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Looking good.
Have you considered using a waterbased clear topcoat?
It would really show off the carbon nice. I've had great luck with the clear from ResinX and also General Finishes. They both have UV inhibitors and greatly slow down the yellowing of the resin. Not that yellowing matters over black carbon, but it helps if you ever do a clear lam.
The added weight is next to nothing, and you can buff it to a mirror finish.
Also...
If your additive F is going solid, warm it up in a small cup of hot water. I think I recall that it goes solid at 70*.
...or just get some GreenRoom. ;D
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Looking good.
Have you considered using a waterbased clear topcoat?
It would really show off the carbon nice. I've had great luck with the clear from ResinX and also General Finishes. They both have UV inhibitors and greatly slow down the yellowing of the resin. Not that yellowing matters over black carbon, but it helps if you ever do a clear lam.
The added weight is next to nothing, and you can buff it to a mirror finish.
Also...
If your additive F is going solid, warm it up in a small cup of hot water. I think I recall that it goes solid at 70*.
...or just get some GreenRoom. ;D
Hey DurhamSUP,
My buddy tried gloss floor and tile sealer by Behr. It's making his bamboo boards look great. I'm using the satin sealer. Somebody on Swayloks tipped us onto it. It's the secret sauce they sell to surfboard builders.
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Yeah the Behr satin is great for sealing a sanded finish. Sprays really nice, too.
I just could never get the acrylic to polish as nice as the urethane. The acrylic was a little soft and didn't like to be buffed much. The urethane wet sands and polishes like a car finish.
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I went to Lowes and they have the Dupont brand marble and concrete sealers. They are acrylic based. In the paint section they have just typical clear satin polyurethane for wood and wood floors. Is the Behr a wood floor type of polyurethane or a concrete & tile sealer?
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The Behr sealer is only at HD.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/BEHR-Premium-1-gal-Low-Lustre-Sealer-98601/202263929#.UcNCdzteaSo (http://www.homedepot.com/p/BEHR-Premium-1-gal-Low-Lustre-Sealer-98601/202263929#.UcNCdzteaSo)
The gloss is the "wet look" type and the satin is low luster.
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Would you recommend the satin or gloss for the carbon bottom? When I put water on it, the 3D imagery from the carbon fabric is awesome. I think the bottom is smooth enough to take a gloss.
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Would you recommend the satin or gloss for the carbon bottom? When I put water on it, the 3D imagery from the carbon fabric is awesome. I think the bottom is smooth enough to take a gloss.
Gloss to make it pretty.
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Full gloss would look great or leave the bottom sanded with gloss top.
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If it was my board, I would go for the urethane. Lowes or HD carries junk urethane. I wouldn't use it on anything that sees the water.
You are not too far from SDA craft. They have one of the best UV stable water based clears I have seen.
General finish's High Performance Urethane is a close second. It's better if you add the crosslinker, but it works just fine out of the can. You can find GF products at woodworking stores like Rockler.
I usually spray 3 light coats over 320 grit. You can do a light sand between coats 2 and 3 with some 500 grit if you have some dust. Let it sit over night and give it a polish the next day.
Yeah, it's a little involved, but the results are great if you want to show off the carbon.
Here's an example of the the polished SDA urethane with a good reflection of the pine trees in background.
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I have a Westmarine nearby. They carry http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=1231197&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50218&subdeptNum=50262&classNum=50263#.UcOi-_n2beY (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=1231197&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50218&subdeptNum=50262&classNum=50263#.UcOi-_n2beY)
Looks like a quality product.
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I am pretty sure that stuff has an amber hue to it.
I've never worked with solvent based urethane on boards, so I'm not sure how it will work. I've use them on wood in the past, and they dry slow and take a long time to cure enough to polish, so I question how well it would work.
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I found a source for the GP HP urethene, but it' a two hour round trip to get it. I'll see if someone will ship within a few days.
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Well it's paint time. I had some grandiose ideas of patterns and colors I was going to do, then the time reality sank in. This painting, priming, sanding, just goes on and on. It's never going to be perfect, but I'm trying. Part of me say "just mix a little more bondo", and the other part says "you're just going to beat it up, every little blemish does not have to be touched up!" I mean come on, I just want to paddle the frick'n thing! So I'm going to do a white pin stripe with a light metallic blue across most of it. It's all automotive paint, and I'm spraying it.
Oh ya, It's got to be done in two days. I got a race on Saturday........
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Well.... I did it! From drawing board to the race, and all steps between.. Completed it just in time for the race I wanted if for. What a long road, but what an education it has been. Thanks to all you Zoners who took an interest in my build project. I think I can safely say, "I'm done!" the board is exactly what I wanted, and performs amazing. If any of you see me out paddling, I'd be more than happy to let you try it, and hear your feedback.
Final spec: 17'-9" x 25.5" and 26 pounds with fin and deck pad. Very stiff, low profile, and fast............ It was a winner the first hour it was on the water! ;D
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Good work dude!
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Thanks' SSG. How's the back?
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Thanks' SSG. How's the back?
Hit the Dr today and got xrays.
The stiff only gave me Alleve in the mean time.
His prognosis... "You'll be in pain for 10 days and return to normal in 30 days." Thanks?
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Tall dude the board looks killer, 26 lbs? So where did you save the most weight?
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I believe the true weight savings came from a combination of using a wet table on the carbon, using just one layer of 5.8 oz Plain Weave carbon-fiber, and one layer on 2 oz. as a sanding coat. Most glassers use the Twill Weave carbon-fiber which looks better in the finish because it holds together like glass. You can squeegee it in any direction and the weave holds together evenly. The Plain Weave is courser, has better structural properties, but leaves pits between the Weave. The 2 oz sort of capped the little pits in the courser Plain Weave. The problem with the Twill Weave is you tend to get too much flex because of the tight, flatter weave (more decorative less structural), so you need another layer. Another layer of epoxy will easily add a few pounds. You can't sand through it either, so you have to glass over it or put a thicker hot coat on. With the 2 oz. glass I can sand as much as I need to without through it into the CF. On top of all that, I pretty much sanded the entire hot coat off. Lots of sanding the pounds off. I think I lost a few pounds in the process as well.
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I'm thinking unidirectional for the same reason. Can't see why I need a weave at all.
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I think you're right Pono. Most of the structural properties are needed length wise, and the Unidirectional is less cost than an equal amount of the Twill Weave. On an unlimited you really need two layers of Twill which gets really costly. I don't mind seeing foam between the gaps in the Plain Weave. I would imagine that Unidirectional would have the similar gaps as well. I guess if you didn't want to see the gaps, you could just paint the foam black?
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Here is a good link that explains some of the differences between Carbon Fiber weaves and weights. There is a lot of good info on this site.
http://www.sollercomposites.com/fabricchoice.html (http://www.sollercomposites.com/fabricchoice.html)
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Pono, I know you don't need that link, it was just for those who were wondering about all the weave stuff. ::)
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Are you kidding? I learn new stuff every day, nice link.
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Are you kidding? I learn new stuff every day, nice link.
So you CAN teach an old dog new tricks! Verified here. ;D