Standup Zone Forum
General => Random => Topic started by: stoneaxe on November 01, 2012, 07:46:14 PM
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Given the obviously very polarizing nature of the campaign and the back and forth of the presidential thread I thought I'd try to seek some common ground....not sure if this will work but maybe we can all add our thoughts to this and see if maybe we will find we aren't so far apart as it seems.
Before you post please respect the idea behind this. No arguments about your idea, no put downs of the ideas of others. I'm not looking to define how you would get to your idea or whether you think the Dems or Repubs plans have a better chance of getting us there. Obviously some ideas or wishes will show us to be to the left or the right in fact I'd like to see us post our bias and where we think we are politically as part of the 1st post. I'm just kind of wondering what we want from our government and what we don't want them doing as well.
This may be dumb but I have a crushing headache and am getting tired of the acrimony...my own included...starting to be displayed in the Presidential Politics thread.
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I think of myself as a centrist with a lean to the right. I'm independent politically and have never voted the party line. Fiscally conservative, socially accepting with some definite limitations. I believe strongly in individual responsibility.
Some of these are platitudes.... :P Things we may all agree on as a goal but disagree on the best methods to get there.
Create an environment that gives my children better opportunity
Provide for a strong defense.
Provide the infrastructure that we all depend on, roads, bridges, ports, etc..
An education rooted in the fundamentals of learning in a safe and secure atmosphere for every kid
Sorry some pretty basic stuff here...my head is exploding and I gotta go close my eyes. I'll add some meat tomorrow.
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To remove the PFD requirement! ;D
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Get the heck out of the way. Perfect example is this storm. In order to help everyone recover quicker Obama "cut the red tap" so everything would be more efficient. Why don't they do that every day?
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Start by telling the truth
Defend the constitution (honor the oath they took) maybe even read it !
Put America first, not themselves
Defend the borders
Ensure a safe food supply
Pass fair business laws
Spend no more than they take in (balanced budget)
Review why we have troops in 135 counties around the world. I'm sure a large % of them could come home.
Stop social engineering, leave that to the private sector
One arguing point: With all the money this country waist, we should be able to provide medical and dental for all kids up to 18. After that adults should be responsible for them selves.
Basic starting points
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boy this could be a long list. my immediate utopia...
Do:
provide free or damn near free healthcare and higher education to every American as both should be viewed as a human right, tax all citizens the same % of income, make adoption an easy and cheap process, give our troops sufficient financial-education-mental health-vocational supports, legalize drugs across the board, secure America as the leader in education-healthcare-industry & innovation but most of all general happiness
Don't:
invade other countries unprovoked and become a terrorist nation yourself, make laws based on religious dogma, depend on rich people to spend their money so middle class and poor folk can get some, kill people for killing someone else as that just makes you a killer ???, continue to allow America to be known for guns-greed and ego
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Only what the Constitution says and no more.
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Simple answer: "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity"
I'm far less concerned about the direction of the federal government than I am the recent history and current direction of my local and state government. The corruption, waste and interference at the local level directly impacts every aspect of my life and child's future. Everything from the environment, education, development is being traded like a commodity by my locally elected representative. Because one party has been in control for going on 20 years, these bastards feel they can get away with anything to the point that the FBI had to get involved.
Sure, the 8 years of GWB and 6 years of a Republican controlled Congress took the country down the wrong road, IMHO; but, at least there was the check of a minority party in the Senate. The same check controlled Obama and the Democrats. The only checks at the state and local level are bank drafts, sweet deals and free meals.
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Respect each other and work together in good faith.
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Things we may all agree on as a goal but disagree on the best methods to get there.
I think that is pretty spot on.
Ask not what your government can do, but ask what you can do for your government.
(or something like that)
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Only what the Constitution says and no more.
Amen.
The problem with free health care and free education is that nothing is free. Roads aren't free, military isn't free, and locking up criminals isn't free. You pay for everything via taxes. Socialism is a great idea until you run out of other peoples money ...and then you're Greece.
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Only what the Constitution says and no more.
Amen.
The problem with free health care and free education is that nothing is free. Roads aren't free, military isn't free, and locking up criminals isn't free. You pay for everything via taxes. Socialism is a great idea until you run out of other peoples money ...and then you're Greece.
The benefits of an educated workforce help the entire community (positive externality), so there's a good arguement for why society should pay for everyone's education. It makes economic sense.
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I fully agree that there is a good argument for it Menlo, but I would probably be on the other side of that argument, or taking the view that it is an issue best handled at the state level.
I'm very invested in this argument by the way. I've offered to help pay for the education of both children. My 24 year old son, would have wasted my money as fast as he was allowed to were it not for certain requirements I put there to insure it wouldn't be wasted. He ended after one failed semester and now supports himself just fine without the college education. My daughter is 2.5 years into her BA and seems to be benefitting from the education, although that won't be certain until she's got the degree and the value is apparent. I'll be $50k worth of chips into the game by the end.
Many kids benefit more from the effort it takes to get there than the actual college experience itself. A walk through UCSB's Isla Vista after the Halloween festivities would be all the evidence I'd need to prove that point... (something I did last weekend). Giving things away for free skews your perspective of the cost of the given item.
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The fundamental problem with "free" is that becomes the value of the good or service, and then it gets wasted profligately. The wasting can't continue, so someone gets put in charge as the gatekeeper. And suddenly it's not really free. The quality declines until it's worth pretty much what you pay for it. We've had free K-12 education in this country for a very long time. I consider it babysitting on a grand scale. A few minutes of man-in-the-street questions would pretty much support that opinion.
You can get a tremendous education for free on the internet. Kahn academy, college classes from Harvard, MIT, Standford, you name it. You can learn anything you want, you just won't have a piece of paper.
I'd have to think long and hard to answer this question. We have to start from where we are, not where we'd like to be. I'd start with some very straightforward goals--reduce the deficit would be #1.
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A walk through UCSB's Isla Vista after the Halloween festivities would be all the evidence I'd need to prove that point... (something I did last weekend). Giving things away for free skews your perspective of the cost of the given item.
I'm sorry no one told you that parents should never go through IV right after Halloween.. But it is University California Surfing Branch after all... ;D
Haven't been there since the 80's for Halloween but figure it should still be a wild time. Though it looks like the kids aren't falling off the cliffs like they used to.
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I think of myself as a centrist with a lean to the right.
oh stoneman, stop. That made me laugh so hard, chocolate milk squirted out my nose and got all over my Keith Olberman poster and Arianna Huffington mousepad. Gotta clean up now. :D :D
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;D LOL....awesome Spook glad I could help. I hope there are no other unexplained stains on the mousepad....or the poster for that matter.... ;)
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OK...even though I have shit I should be doing I promised more meat....here's where I stand on a few issues and what I believe is the most important.
I'd like to see our military removed from any country where the government no longer wants us there. Any true friends that still want American bases on their land...OK. I don't think we need as many bases as we have and a concentration of forces in friendly countries would be easier to support, provide economic benefit to our friends, and help reduce some of the resentment (maybe).
If we are going to have a consulate or embassy in a country where there is danger in being there. There needs to be security and either we are sure that the police or military of that country will uphold the law or we make sure of an ability to respond as soon as we know whats happening. (recent lessons learned)
I'd like to see real work done on the reduction of nuclear weapons with the end game being the total elimination. I have zero faith this can ever be done though so I at least would want to see the number shrunk dramatically.
I'm not sure what to say about Iran other than I can't imagine that bag of nuts with nukes.
I believe in a women's right to choose to have an abortion up to the point where I think it begins to bump up against the child's right to live. We have a separation of church and state, I think science should define when life begins. (another argument starts) A major effort should be made to simplify the adoption process and help expectant mothers that don't want the child choose that route. I'd even go to the level of effort to say that prospective adoptee parents and the government pay the expenses of the expectant mother. Contraceptives are easily available and should continue to be so. This whole thing is so far down on my list however that I can't see it. I only mention it because its so contentious.
I am not a strict Constitutionalist. I believe it's a truly amazing document that has stood the test of time far beyond anything like it in world history. But it WAS written by all guys, some with slaves, 240 years ago. There are things they could not possibly foresee.
I'd like to see quality education and real guidance given to kids, I'd like to see discipline brought back into the schools. School should be structured to meet with the reality of two working parents or a single Mom or Dad. At least 8 hours a day. Quality teachers who advance only on merit. An amazing teacher should be making 6 figures....the simply good, a little less.....the poor ones should find a new profession. This is too friggin important to leave up to them.
I could see free education through 2 years of higher education. Whether that be a college or a trade shool but only if we make the changes to early education and start teaching kids about individual responsibility and get them on the right path. I have to admit I was actually the recipient of exactly such a program in the 70's....I actually not only had all my classes and books covered I got a check for $300 each semester. I'm ashamed to say it was a complete failure. I spent my time shooting pool in the student union making some extra money. If we can improve basic education to truly prepare kids though I'd be all for it.
Give me energy independance. Do whatever it takes to make it happen as fast as possible. Get our economy and the rest of the world functional again. Then focus on the real development of a long term mix of sustainable solutions that helps reduce our carbon footprint.
I think government employee unions are bad period. There are enough regulations in place protecting government workers rights and voting people in that will give you a raise will always get corrupted.
I do believe in the death penalty. If someone ever killed one of my children. I would not only believe in the death penalty...I'd believe in cruel and unusual punishment at my own hands. I believe in it only in cases where there is no possible question of doubt.
This is the most important thing for me. I'd like to see a near balanced budget amendment to the constitution. I think there are times when you need to borrow....but you shouldn't be able to borrow, and borrow, and borrow, and borrow......I'd need many, many more borrows to get anywhere near the shitstorm of debt we are in today.
Bill said something important. we have to start from where we are...not where we want to be. The deficit is key to everything else.
Felonius Munk says it best.
Felonious Munk Presents: Stop It B! OBAMA PAY YOUR &*%$#% BILLS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRmZ9zH-mYM#ws)
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I'm sorry no one told you that parents should never go through IV right after Halloween.. But it is University California Surfing Branch after all... ;D
Haven't been there since the 80's for Halloween but figure it should still be a wild time. Though it looks like the kids aren't falling off the cliffs like they used to.
I don't have any spawn at UCSB, but my brother graduated in the early 90's I spent the night one halloween, hunkered down in his rental house like it was Beirut. ;D
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I'm sorry no one told you that parents should never go through IV right after Halloween.. But it is University California Surfing Branch after all... ;D
Haven't been there since the 80's for Halloween but figure it should still be a wild time. Though it looks like the kids aren't falling off the cliffs like they used to.
I don't have any spawn at UCSB, but my brother graduated in the early 90's I spent the night one halloween, hunkered down in his rental house like it was Beirut. ;D
Funny how I can tell I've made the transition to "being old". The telling indicator is that while I once viewed the chance to come to IV and drink beer as worthy as a road trip from the Bay Area, I now shake my head at how much energy goes into making sure children of privilege don't kill themselves doing something stupid.
Back to the thread, I really appreciate that the tone here deals with issues of the larger good vs. individual interests. I've become so wearied at the individualistic view of politics--people vote based on what the individual implications might be for their paychecks, healthcare, tax bill, employment, etc. Not sure which came first, but the candidates place most of their rhetoric in these terms--almost to the point of "If you vote for me, I'll get you a job." That kind of thinking is very short-sighted--I'll vote for what benefits me and my own--and just kicks some pretty big cans down the road.
So I guess my answer speaks more generally to what I don't want our government to do. There's no need for it to make a specific personal promise to me. I consider myself a capable person and the world won't end or turn all rosy whether one candidate or the other gets elected. That doesn't mean I don't need gov't, but I'm most concerned that it be thinking of long-term good, sustainability and viability. That has implications for how we approach the budget deficit, energy, overseas commitments, education and benefit/assistance programs.
John Adams wrote to his son-in-law “How few aim at the good of the whole, without aiming too much at the prosperity of parts.” The more I think about it, the more impressed I am at what the framers of our Constitution did in being able to work through deep division and work toward long-term collective good. I feel like too much of what government tries to do these days is make as many "parts" happy instead of putting forth an agenda that truly aims at the good of the whole for decades and centuries ahead.
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Stop social engineering, leave that to the private sector
What does this mean?
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Legalization of marijuana on a federal level or a complete hands off approach and let the states decide.
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...including hemp. Yes, one day someone WILL make a SUP with it!
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John Adams wrote to his son-in-law “How few aim at the good of the whole, without aiming too much at the prosperity of parts.” The more I think about it, the more impressed I am at what the framers of our Constitution did in being able to work through deep division and work toward long-term collective good. I feel like too much of what government tries to do these days is make as many "parts" happy instead of putting forth an agenda that truly aims at the good of the whole for decades and centuries ahead.
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John Adams had to cool down some rough-short-term-thinking hot heads that were on his side in order to shape things the way he did. Most regular people back then weren't nerdy thinkers. From what I gather, pretty much hand to mouth in those days for most.
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Legalization of marijuana on a federal level or a complete hands off approach and let the states decide.
I live in California. I leased property to 4 medical marijuana shops. Very shady operation. Same guys who run these run strip clubs and other sin businesses. Long story short most of them flaked out and the other got raided by the feds. Oh...and if your scared of inorganic food I would not touch the stuff. I'm surprised it does not glow in the dark from what they put into it to make it grow fast.
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I'm a weird blend of reactionary, libertarian and socialist.
Middle east: pretty much isolationist. Keep a NATO contingent in turkey, materially support israel.
People are not people. We don't understand these guys. I'm still not sure why a group of Saudis would decide flying a plane into a skyscraper is a good idea. Pretty sure it had nothing to do with Saudam or the Taliban. Probably more likely related to perceived domestic injustice and support of the royal family. Oil would go up. That's not all bad, gotta have a fairly high crude cost to make alternate energy development economically viable.
Financial oversite: IMO the great recession was caused directly by lack of financial oversite during theBush years. Yeah, I think we will grow faster during a boom, but the fall is harder during a bust. I also think that corporations are not people and multinational companies are not American businesses.
I'd like to see a consumption tax and eliminate federal withholding, except social security. I doubt I'll ever see a dime of my social security, but believe a minimum safety net for life long workers is a good idea.
Id like to see single payor health care. I don't relish the idea of working in that system, but you cannot control cost unless you control access. The system is broke and the projected rate ofgrowth is mindboggling. We can't do everything for everybody.
Free education: I think you guys are dissing this a bit. If you know how to game the system, you can get a stellar free grade school and high school education and relatively low cost post-secondary education at the CCs and state campuses. I do not believe everyone deserves a free ivy league education, and really doubt the relative value of that education, unless maybe you have presidential aspirations.
The problem with free primary and secondary education is that it is based on county tax and very spotty. My state uses a state wide doe funded by state tax. All public schools are lousy. That's why we have a boatload of independent schools.