Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: Takeo on July 30, 2012, 11:20:44 AM
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Heard the rumor last week, here's the article. Looks like SIC boards will soon be available world wide, question is, how will this affect quality and price?
http://www.supthemag.com/features/industry-news/industry-news-flow-sports-aquires-sic/?fb_ref=.UBYjxhzCIOg.send&fb_source=message (http://www.supthemag.com/features/industry-news/industry-news-flow-sports-aquires-sic/?fb_ref=.UBYjxhzCIOg.send&fb_source=message)
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If you're here in Hawaii, I don't think much will change.
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:)
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That's pretty cool, I know Mark was struggling with how to get distribution to areas other than Hawaii, sounds like a great solution.
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Flow is a respected name in snowboard equipment, so there is reason to think they won't screw it up with a profit before product mentality, but personality conflicts are harder to predict and just as deadly. So here is to a long friendly and profitable relationship for both parties
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I imagine Mark will still be shaping his boards on Maui, and if the new owners/partners try to screw with him too much he will start another company, and keep shaping boards.
Sent from my BlackBerry 9670 using Tapatalk
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A common problem when entrepreneurs get bought out but intend to stay with the company. The owners get to do what they want, not what you want. When I sold a chunk of my agency I kept a majority interest, but even still I felt compelled to find a "professional CEO" who proceeded to flush years of work down the drain. After I fired him I gradually turned control over to an insider, who now runs the company much better than I ever did.
It will be more good luck than good management if Mark stays on and stays happy, but it's possible. I really hoe he does. If the new folks are smart enough, they'll establish an R&D budget and turn Mark loose to innovate, and take all the day-to-day management and marketing away from him, which will be a very good thing because he sucks at it, and he knows it.
What probably won't happen is that Mark will go off and do the same stuff he's been doing. The easiest way for me to make money would be to start another marketing agency--but I'd rather be horsewhipped. Too much like starting all over, only this time you know how much of a pain in the ass all the steps are.
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Hopefully it works out better for Mark than for Leo Fender. When Fender was bought out, the parent company (CBS?) implemented cost cutting measures and put out some really crappy products under the Fender label in the 70s, before the Fender brand was resurrected and they started making decent products again.
Leo finally started making guitars again under a new label (ASAT I believe), but never got the following he probably deserved. A true genius in musical instruments, not so much as a business man.
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G&L, ASAT is a model, Tele like if I recall correctly.
CBS did actually build some great new products, the Rivera era amps, Super Champ, Champ II. Princeton II and a few others are fantastic amps, but they are different then the classic Fenders, so get much less respect then they deserve.
Designing and building amps for electric stringed instruments is a small part of my income.
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I've got a G&L Legacy (their version of a Strat). LOVE it! I wish I had money to collect classic tube amps. They sure have become pricey.
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Well I'm pretty interested in how this develops as the only chance I have had to actually see any SIC boards was an F14 in NC two years ago and one of the 12'6 x series earlier this year. I love doing downwind runs and have always wanted to check out an SIC. That said, it does cool me off a little that it would likely be a production SIC and would that be the same and all that...but maybe that's being uneccesarily snobby. A SIC is a SIC is a SIC....I hope.
And from what I know of Flow (very little other than liking my bindings) this seems like a neat partnership. I hope for the best and am interested in the models and prices we see here in the States.
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Production SIC's are not to be sniffed at. In some ways they are as good as the locally molded ones. I really like my Chinese F16
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Pakistan's Chinese F16.
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Still... they're flown by Pakis.
What PBill wrote is very true. The vacuum procedure is stronger in those autoclave facilities they have in Asia. For instance the bag used in making my Bullet here on Maui only used one atmosphere and the Asians use four in their process.
It comes out so hard, that the drum like effect is created whenever not going downwind... but very durable.
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Headmount, I'm sure that the term you meant to use was "Pakistanis". The term you used has the same status in many countries as the "N word". Place the N word in the sentence instead of the term you used, and imagine how offensive it might seem to some people. Of course, you didn't make the kindest comment in the world even if you had used an approved term, but at least it wouldn't be completely incendiary. However, I know that awareness of these matters is perhaps not as widespread in the USA as elsewhere so I'm sure that you meant no offence.
I'm happy to bring you this public information broadcast. Normal service will now be resumed...
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Hey Headmount, the extra strength and hardness is not a function of the pressure involved, but of the super slow setting resins that really require heat to set. As a general rule, the slower the resin, the stronger it is. The pressure is about making sure that any trapped air does not expand much with the heat, and most important, prevents outgassing of the resin at such elevated temperatures
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High pressure autoclave parts also LOOK a lot more precise. Prehaps the contour of the mold is followed more tightly. But there's a clear difference. We're looking at having some paddle parts made in an autoclave that goes to 120#. The parts look very slick, I'm just not sure we'll be able to get the price where it needs to be.
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Celeste... Thanks. When I pick up an OC-1 and feel how light but bullet proof they are for their size, I'm blown away. Are there autoclave machines in the US?
Area10...Thanks for the update. I was never aware that it was the N equivalent because I've heard much worse. Tho probably not wise to make my feelings public (tho our Presidents and Secretary of States have used that word), I can't plead innocence. That pic of the jet and what I've seen, was just too much to resist.
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Celeste... would kevlar do well in a combo with carbon with this autoclave process? It seems like with the right combo you could approach the strength of steel.
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There's lots of autoclaves in the US, there's a few here in Hood River.
Autoclave means different things in different businesses though. In medicine it's a cabinet for sterilizing instruments and other stuff than can stand heat. The name really applied to vessels that are filled with saturated steam at high pressure (saturated being the term for steam that is at it's vapor pressure and temperature as opposed to superheated steam which is at a higher temperature than it's corresponding pressure. A pressure cooker is a simple autoclave.
For some reason the composite industry adopted the same term for a pressurized chamber filled with heated air. Confusing, but then when have engineers cared about that.
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Headmount, I think you mean big autoclaves, most Dr, offices and nail salons have small autoclaves. The only fatal accident to ever happen in a FDA lab was from improper use of an autoclave.
The really big autoclaves are a US innovation, when McLearan first started using all carbon tubs with the MP4, the only place with an autoclave big enough to do it was Lockheed in Ga.. These days they are everywhere. Just look at a list of subcontractors for the 787 Dreamliner. China, Italy, just all over
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HM, to be really blown away by how something can be so light, pick up LPB's V10. Mine weighed 24 pounds with footpedals, rudder, everything. At over 21' long that was pretty light, and yet unbelievably strong. Whichever factory is building the Epic boats has the process down.
Celeste, I built a clone Marshall 50W with Metroamp parts (and a huge dose of assistance from the forum). What a blast to build that stuff. I wish I had more time, I wanted to build a Fender Bassman amp, but never could justify the time to do so.
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Sorry, I forgot about the carbon/Kevlar question.
You usually add Kevlar to the mix when you need more flex without loss of strength, a less catastrophic failure mode (carbon has a tendency to shatter into shrapnel when badly overloaded) or you need abrasion resistance. If you need those properties Kevlar is great,
1p2p (looks like a Russian tube designation). I don't really do clones, to many great ones out there by to many great builders, I don't feel I have anything to add to the genera. I was 10 when dad gave me my first lesson in tube electronics, and audio electronics is what got me to buckle down and take school seriously, rather then slacking by on my learning disability. These days, I look for young artists that are searching for the sound in their head rather then chasing someone else's. Giving someone the voice to express themselves the way they want to is one of the great joys of my life.
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Headmount, I'm sure that the term you meant to use was "Pakistanis". The term you used has the same status in many countries as the "N word". Place the N word in the sentence instead of the term you used, and imagine how offensive it might seem to some people. Of course, you didn't make the kindest comment in the world even if you had used an approved term, but at least it wouldn't be completely incendiary. However, I know that awareness of these matters is perhaps not as widespread in the USA as elsewhere so I'm sure that you meant no offence.
I'm happy to bring you this public information broadcast. Normal service will now be resumed...
Thank you for bringing this up, Americans seem to have a thing for making up nick names. I am from Gascanistan, and it really burns me up to be called a Gassy. After all I went through to get here and emigration. I was a mail order bride, and the cheap so and so would only pay for 3rd class postage, I mean, do I look like junk mail? Still it was all worth it, I just get a little home sick during the head lice rutting season, something about the roar of a bull head lice that really warms the heart
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THAT was hilarious. My kind of sense of humor. May I call you the 'canny'?
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Since 'Gassy' is clearly offensive.
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Ah, Celeste..I thought that sounded familiar:
http://www.ax84.com/bbs/dm.php?thread=287856 (http://www.ax84.com/bbs/dm.php?thread=287856)
The comment to your post in that thread about Borat is insightful.
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Ah, Celeste..I thought that sounded familiar:
http://www.ax84.com/bbs/dm.php?thread=287856 (http://www.ax84.com/bbs/dm.php?thread=287856)
The comment to your post in that thread about Borat is insightful.
Sorry it was not new material, but it was mostly a new audience.
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Celeste, I thought what was particularly interesting was your original motivation for creating this "character", and the similarities with the aim of Borat. Borat of course, is not poking fun at Kazakhstan at all, but is actually making fun of the ignorant and mean-minded people who fall for his stereotypes. You were doing a similar thing.
Pakistan is a very interesting country. It is the 6th most populous country in the world (out of something like 240 independent countries and territories), with about 180 million people, accounting for about 2.6% of the total world population. For comparison, the USA is the third most populous, with about 4.5%. Both of these of course are way behind China and India, which account for 19% and 17% of the total world population respectively. Nevertheless, one can see that Pakistan is a large country, and geographically it covers an area about the same as the UK and France added together. It is also a strikingly young population - over 100 million of its inhabitants are under the age of 30, and in the 20 years from 1990 to 2009 it increased its population by well over 50%. In many ways one can argue that these countries represent the future in world politics - the indigenous growth of USA and Europe has largely stopped. It would be nice to see the older countries (quite literally "older" since our populations are getting older) reach out to the younger ones rather than fall back on lazy stereotyping and so foster misunderstanding and hatred.
Borat of course caused a lot of controversy and the purpose of the film was widely misunderstood. It was a great risk that Baron-Cohen took.
Unfortunately, some of the USA politicians are not particularly inclined to serve their country folk well in respect of fostering understanding about foreign countries. At the moment in Europe we have some chap over here called Mitt Romney, who has graced us with his presence for some reason best known to himself. He came to London, site of the current Olympic Games and promptly announced that London was unfit to hold the Olympics. How charming of him. This gave the Mayor of London the opportunity to tell him in a very British way to sling his hook, and off Romney went with his tail between his legs, spouting apologies and retractions. The Major of London is widely regarded as a buffoon (indeed, it seems to be largely the secret of his success), so to make yourself look like an even bigger buffoon is quite a trick. Then Romney popped off to Israel to apparently tell them that the USA will be quite happy for them to nuke anyone they feels threatens them. I have no idea whether his position is actually that of the American people, but expressing it in the way he has done runs a huge risk of exacerbating what is of course a hugely delicate position in the Middle East - about which he seems to know very little. So, overall, unfortunately, his behaviour will reinforce the equally lazy stereotypes that some people have about people from the USA, and allow trouble-makers in these foreign countries to legitimise the use of the politics of fear - to the detriment of us all, including the USA who, just as we in Europe do, needs to keep trading routes open with these rapidly developing nations.
Right, that's got that out of my system. Back to SUP: I got my new Coreban Dart recently (full carbon), and its FAB, and well suited to conditions in the UK. I hope SIC also decide to try to develop DW boards more attuned to conditions outside those just found in Hawaii. Naish seem to be going down the flat water or elite-ocean paddlers only route with their latest super-narrow boards. The new SIC shapes (if that is what they are) spotted recently under the feet of Connor and DK might just be the thing... maybe...
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Mark Raaphorst actually built the first displacement SUP I ever saw--it was a canoe-bow F18 custom designed for California conditions. Mark has a good understanding or what works in flatwater. Up until now Mark has pretty much built the boards that people want from him, which is open ocean, big swell, downwinding boards. None better. Easy thing to see. Go to any really serious downwind race and at least half the field of the elite racers will be on a SIC.
What we'll see from now on is anyone's guess. I'd love to see Mark's take on a serious pure flatwater unlimited board. Hopefully he'd take a big step away from downwind boards and rethink what is necessary.
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Evan posted this vid a little while ago. Looks like you'll see some shortboards.
S.I.C. 9'4" SUP Stand Up Paddle Surfboard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc5gXxcFyMg&feature=youtu.be#ws)
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Area,
but sic already has downwind boards. Numerous versions suitable for all types of downwind conditions. There are different versions of the F series, and the bullet line up. More and more companies are starting to produce unlimited class boards
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Right, that's got that out of my system. Back to SUP: I got my new Coreban Dart recently (full carbon), and its FAB, and well suited to conditions in the UK. I hope SIC also decide to try to develop DW boards more attuned to conditions outside those just found in Hawaii. Naish seem to be going down the flat water or elite-ocean paddlers only route with their latest super-narrow boards. The new SIC shapes (if that is what they are) spotted recently under the feet of Connor and DK might just be the thing... maybe...
Our options for presidency seem pretty restricted at the moment. It kind of feels like we are under the control of the political machine, having to choose the lesser of two weevils. Moving on...
SIC has a tremendous advantage of having some of the best downwind conditions in its back yard for a proving ground. Something like having Nürburgring just around the corner to test your latest sports car. But Marks' more recent boards, especially the one ridden by Dave Kalama in M2O, appear to have less rocker than some of the previous designs. I do not believe this is by accident; there is no question that less rocker is faster, so long as you don't boof, or poof, or whatever you want to call it.
I imagine that as the sport progresses, designs will come out that can handle pretty much any conditions you put them in and come out shining. My thinking is that SUP designs will start to look more like the surf ski designs.
I think we all would agree that a planing nose sucks when you gotta paddle upwind. If you have a design that can cut through chop rather than bounce over it, you can move the board a lot faster.
The Epic V10, and the designs which it inspired, appears to me to be a displacement design with features that allow it to handle downwind conditions well. I've discussed this at length on the de facto surf ski thread on this board. My thought is that racing SUP boards could also benefit from the bow designs seen on the present surf skis, which blend displacement and planing features.
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Actually I think both OC and surfski designs are a dead end for SUP. Seated paddler, different stroke length, and much lower center of gravity vs. standing paddler that moves in all directions, long stroke highly varied, high center of gravity. What pertinent factor is similar?
I do, however, appreciate the Aubrey/Maturin reference. Lesser of two Weevils indeed. A glass of wine with you...
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Sure there are differences, but I would say there are enough similarities in what you are trying to do to incorporate what works from those designs. Because of the standing position, SUP designs are more limited in how narrow the boards can realistically be. But as we can see from Connor's paddling, radically raising and lowering the center of gravity pays great dividends in bump riding (if you can bend that low).
I see Syzmanski's designs incorporating some of the blended displacement idea. My suspicion is that is that is a fertile ground for board evolution.
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My point is that duplicating a surfski design will not yield an optimal SUP design, they have very different requirements. For example I can picture a SUP with a very long nose that bears little weight but serves only to increase the waterline length. Penetrating bows, planing stern. All kinds of crazy stuff that would be out of place and flat out wouldn't work in a surfski or OC. I think OC's Surfskis, and Sculling boats all have designs that are optimized for what they do and are very well developed. But they don't have a tremendous amount of similarity to a longboard--which is also highly developed. It's very early in the development of high performance SUPs. I suspect what ultimately emerges is not going to look the way we think it will.
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Mark Raaphorst actually built the first displacement SUP I ever saw--it was a canoe-bow F18 custom designed for California conditions. Mark has a good understanding or what works in flatwater. Up until now Mark has pretty much built the boards that people want from him, which is open ocean, big swell, downwinding boards. None better. Easy thing to see. Go to any really serious downwind race and at least half the field of the elite racers will be on a SIC.
What we'll see from now on is anyone's guess. I'd love to see Mark's take on a serious pure flatwater unlimited board. Hopefully he'd take a big step away from downwind boards and rethink what is necessary.
Don't know if you (or anyone else here saw this) but when dooing my usual drooling on the SIC site a few months ago, I found this under the "used boards" tab, and was very intrigued: 15' Custom Hybrid. A few e-mail and phone calls later, and I had the full scoop from Karen.
15' x 28" Custom Shaped - styrofoam - full carbon - wood deck sandwich. Weight = 25 lbs.
"The concept behind the Hybrid board is to have it be good on downwinders, with less drag in the flats, due to its displacement qualities in the front section of the board. The board is shaped for a lighter person with good balance. The board is best suited for smaller chop for going upwind as well as downwind. It has a double concave under your feet, soft rails for side chop forgiveness and less drag in non planing conditions".
The board is in transit finally, but I won't get it until September sometime (barge to Seattle, then another barge to up here). I love my 14' Glide, but do lots of upwind and crosswind paddling, and this seems like it might really be good for around here. I've read many posts lately about the usefullness (uselessness?) of a rudder board in non-Hawaii conditions, but we'll just have to wait and see.
I was trying to wait until it arrives before I posted up, but this seems like a good thread to inject into, as it is relevant to the discussion ;).
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Very cool, I'm pretty sure I saw that board at the shop. Interesting concept. IMHO rudders are great anywhere there's wind.
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Yeah, I'm pretty psyched to try it out. It will get here around the time the winds will be back up, (Gale, Storm force and beyond). Will post up more pics and video after I get some time on it.
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I like Mark's double concave design. His boards are typically very stable, that one looks like it would be quite stable as well. That board should go very well in small bumps and chop.