Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: JonathanC on July 15, 2011, 02:04:22 AM
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Put my new Starboard Ace 14' x 25" into the water yesterday in sloppy onshore seas, it was blowing about 10 to 12 knots and cold...thought I might fall in but was pleasantly surprised with the stability of the board and blown away by the tiny lumpy little runners it could catch. Amazingly stable for a 25" board and DRY FEET!! The standing area is well and truly above water level with all my 148lbs on board.
Very keen to get it out into stronger downwind conditions and see how it goes, seems to be plenty of rocker to allow it to surf if you step back and its actually surprisingly manoeuvrable despite that chisel tail.
Without doubt, the fastest light wind downwind board I've ever been on, slightly "technical" but not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. Of course as far as I'm concerned, anything over 10' is a 'down wind board' just becomes a matter of how well they go, don't give a toss about what they were actually designed for.... :)
I did put the video up in another topic but thought this beauty deserved a topic of its own.
Ace 14' x 25" First Outing (http://vimeo.com/26427387)
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Hi Johnathan. Thanks for the review. That board looks like it has a lot more rocker than I expected which should be great for your purposes. I have "The New" 12'6x25" now and a Coast Runner on the way, but I have been considering a 14x25 or 14x27 ACE for non downwind races. I'm 205 today and really a bit too heavy to race on the 12'6"x25 NEW like I am doing but I am managing it okay. I have also done well on the NEW for a few calmer downwind sessions, but I am not that stable when I go across the grain. The Coast Runner should be ideal for our downwind conditions and for non-downwind but rough race conditions. So, do you think the ACE is much faster than the Cost Runner in calmer non-downwind race conditions? Would you recommend the 25" or 27" x14 ACE for someone 205 pounds? Thanks.
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Jonathon, I was wondering - do you feel that your foot movement is limited by the dropped deck? Could you really step back and turn it like a surfboard?
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Hi Johnathan. Thanks for the review. That board looks like it has a lot more rocker than I expected which should be great for your purposes. I have "The New" 12'6x25" now and a Coast Runner on the way, but I have been considering a 14x25 or 14x27 ACE for non downwind races. I'm 205 today and really a bit too heavy to race on the 12'6"x25 NEW like I am doing but I am managing it okay. I have also done well on the NEW for a few calmer downwind sessions, but I am not that stable when I go across the grain. The Coast Runner should be ideal for our downwind conditions and for non-downwind but rough race conditions. So, do you think the ACE is much faster than the Cost Runner in calmer non-downwind race conditions? Would you recommend the 25" or 27" x14 ACE for someone 205 pounds? Thanks.
Well I've never paddled a Coast Runner so I'm guessing here! But I would be very confident in saying that the Ace would be faster than the Coast Runner in calmer non downwind race conditions, and I believe the 25" would be fine in those conditions for someone 205. I'll get DJ into it and see how he goes, he is 6'4 and about 205. I tried to stand on one foot yesterday, not in the middle of the board but in the footwell, it rolls over alarmingly but doesn't tip me out!!
PT Woody has his own little GPS test he does with all race boards, he paddles flat out for a minute from a standing start and checks the distance he has covered, it was 170 meters on the Ace and I'm pretty sure he said he can't really beat 150 on his New boards or the K15, huge difference.
I'm sure the Coast Runner will be an awesome board, I'm slightly perverse and like doing down winders on race boards, I'm light and short and have OK balance and enjoy the challenge - so please take that into account. I actually think the K15 is an amazing downwind board but requires this technique of weighting the opposite rail almost in anticipation of it over-turning or starting to broach, people look at me a little strange when I start enthusing about stuff like that......
Hey 1paddle2paddle, it's still early days for me getting used to the Ace, but if you look at the third or fourth photo you can see that the sunken deck has been continued for a long way back on the Ace. So unlike the New where your back foot had to deal with a sloping ramp, there is actually smooth clear space behind the centre hump between the footwells. At one point in the video I do actually get my back foot into that space and it felt fine. The board is actually surprisingly maneuverable on the wave, it does do the 'reverse steer' thing a little so that when you are in the footwells pressure on the right foot will turn it left and visa versa. But that is the case with most race boards, except the 14 Race (how did they do that!!).
I need to get it onto longer bigger swells to really be answer your question though, hopefully this weekend!
I'm really not a 'race' kinda guy, if I really push my shoulder hurts so I just don't do it, down wind and touring and surfing is where it's at for me, but so far the Ace is a blast!
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Jonathan, I took the 23" New out late in the day to see if I could get anywhere near that 170m in 60sec. The conditions had changed a little, more wind and current going the other way, but I didn't come close. This 14' x 25" Ace is a very fast board. It feels slower than the K15 due to the way it splashes water under the nose but the GPS doesn't lie.
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Jonathan, thanks for the reply. I would be interested to see footage of that board in some bigger bumps. I will keep posted for further reviews.
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Jonathan, I took the 23" New out late in the day to see if I could get anywhere near that 170m in 60sec. The conditions had changed a little, more wind and current going the other way, but I didn't come close. This 14' x 25" Ace is a very fast board. It feels slower than the K15 due to the way it splashes water under the nose but the GPS doesn't lie.
PT, I'd like to see how the 23" NEW compares in similar conditions as the Ace. I find that a bit more wind can make a significant difference in my average speeds. I would've thought that over such a small distance there would've been not much difference between the 2 boards.
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Jonathan, thanks for the video and pics. The flatter deck behind the footwells is a welcome change from the NEW. The high sloping deck behind the footwells on the NEW makes it hard to step back into surf stance for me. The video does seem to show the board is great on mild downwinders.
A few questions for you:
- What does your Ace weigh (assuming it's the AST version)?
- Are the nose and tail of the Ace the same thickness as on the NEW?
- What's that black thing on the inside right side of your board?
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Jonathan, thanks for the video and pics. The flatter deck behind the footwells is a welcome change from the NEW. The high sloping deck behind the footwells on the NEW makes it hard to step back into surf stance for me. The video does seem to show the board is great on mild downwinders.
A few questions for you:
- What does your Ace weigh (assuming it's the AST version)?
- Are the nose and tail of the Ace the same thickness as on the NEW?
- What's that black thing on the inside right side of your board?
Hi Argosi, the black thing is a bit of thick kicker pad deck grip, a handle! Tried to weigh it but the bathroom scales couldn't cope, it is heavy I guess 16kg? I'm not sure about the nose and tail but at some stage I'll do a comparison with PT Woody's New.
I just got back from a 20+k flat water paddle, last 8 upwind, it went really well and stability was fine despite wind chop and boat wakes, love it!
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Hi JC, great to hear you are having fun on the new starboard. The new shapes are very interesting. Starboard is obviously doing a lot of r and d to push the sport forward. Glad to see it.
If you are still sponsored by Starboard, you should consider including it in your signature. (IMHO).
I'm sponsored by Starboard so may be biased but I certainly try to be totally objective. :D
I know you personally and don't doubt your objectivity. Nor DJ's, even though it appears (to me) that he is endlessly shilling Naish and Kailoa. :) Your reviews and videos are great and we all enjoy them.
As far as I know, Naish and Starboard are the big dogs in the market. It seems a shame that they can crush the competition with economies of scale and marketing - and then get free advertising here to boot.
Perhaps it doesn't matter one bit in the grand scheme of things. But I've always been one to pull for the underdog. Big corporations are notorious for F-ing things up here in the US, so I'm jaded.
Starboard certainly isn't in the same league with the corporations that run the world, but...
Jimmy Lewis, FooteMaui, Coreban, etc., I don't see much free advertising on the zone. And their stuff looks good.
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Good point LPB :) to be honest I hadn't even thought of the signature thing - done!
Always feel like a bit of a fraud in the sponsorship department, 52 yo who just happens to love SUP, ambassador kinda feels more like it! I do pay for my boards but get a good discount. I've always liked the Starboard brand right from the very early windsurfing days when Svein was a one man band in Thailand, fearless innovation.
I'm always very conscious of trying to be as honest and unbiased as I possibly can be when it comes to reviewing any board, of any brand. Must admit I'm addicted to trying new boards, trying to work out the thinking of the designer, the compromises inherent in any design.
Funny thing about the little picture/video essays DJ, PT Woody and I do, can't work out why no one else does it, seems that the good people who look at the forum are hungry for photos and information on new gear, I know I am. Why don't the big manufacturers spend more time and effort doing what the three of us do in our own pretty simple way, show more detail than you get in a couple of photos in a brochure.
I know I would welcome photos and videos from anyone, sponsored or not on any new gear, come on guys, make the effort.
Thanks for your comments L.
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Looking through the posts and categories I realize that a post like this, board specific may be better in the Marketplace section. Will do that in future, admin, please move it over if that is more appropriate.
Posted here in downwind and race category without thinking, it's my favourite :)
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Why don't the big manufacturers spend more time and effort doing what the three of us do in our own pretty simple way, show more detail than you get in a couple of photos in a brochure.
Indeed, videos would add a lot to their online catalogs.
Trusted forum members pass the smell test and may post unhindered. If a manufacturer tries to start a forum catalogue it's a feeding frenzy. Thong pics are effective. The view count may go up, but the brain is mush. :)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/risley47/release-the-hounds.jpg)
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Thanks for the input Johnathan and others!
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I am super glad the three of you do the posting that you do! I agree, all brands should do reviews or product info with real world footage. Starboard should be happy that you represent them so well!
I know you guys will be a little biased but the three of you seem honest in opinions of other manufacturers products. Thanks for including your brand signature, it speaks volumes of your honesty.
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Not sure if I should include any reference to Starboard in a signature as Jonathan has admirably done as we have distinctly different arrangements. His arrangement is with the Starboard distributor directly whereas I have a secondary relationship through a local retailer. I think that makes me a team rider for the store rather than Starboard. Which is to say, I've never been Photoshopped into a catalogue. ;D
(Oops, there goes any chance of a sponsorship) :'(
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Hey Jonathan - really liked the video. How does it compare to the Open Ocean ?
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Hey Bing,
Thanks for the video comment!
Very different boards but in many ways similar. The nose of the Ace is very like the Open Ocean and behaves in a very similar way when it pearls, it has a lot of volume so tends not to go under but if it does it comes up quickly and doesn't really nose dive at all - both boards will slow a little if they do pearl, very different to the K15 or the Naish Glide 17 that tend to pierce and not slow down.
Both the Ace and the Open Ocean are much faster if you walk the board and just keep the nose touching or slightly above the surface. The Ace has less nose rocker of course and I'm yet to try it in real downwind conditions - I'm sure it will take a delicate touch! If you can keep that nose just in contact they seem to 'vacuum' onto the wave and link runners like you wouldn't believe.
Stability is a huge difference between the boards, the Ace has an initial tippiness like a full on displacement board, but it does have a heap of secondary stability, just takes a little trust to know that its not going to tip you out. The Open Ocean is very stable, feels like its 30" wide, not 28", but in rough downwind conditions thats a real plus.
The deep footwells of the Ace felt a little claustrophobic at first, strange feeling to be so locked in but actually fine when you get used to it, getting back into surfing stance I found I was doing funny little shuffles but I'm certain that will get smoother when I'm more used to it. Its winter here and the air and water are both about 50 degrees, kinda makes stepping around a little tentative. There is actually some room for your back foot so it should be fine on bigger waves. I did a big paddle (15 miles) on the river today and didn't even notice my feet were relatively locked in.
The Ace is certainly significantly faster on flat water than the OO and it's going to take many more paddles to work out the wind and water state at which the stability and surfiness of the OO takes over.
As far as 'fun' goes, I'm loving the feel of the Ace but its certainly not as relaxing and cruisy as the OO. Depends what you are after I guess. The thing that really grabs me about these boards is the complexity and subtlety, they aren't simple one trick ponies.
I'll report back as I get more time on the Ace :)
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Would be fun to see a chart with numerous brands results on the one minute/distance covered test.
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So if I may ask you Johnathan, now that you own both the ACE and the OO when do you see yourself using one or the other? Conditions? Goals? Etc? I have the CR on order and am interested in replacing my 12'6 NEW with an 14'ACE but I'm not sure if I really need the ACE once I have the CR.
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Hey Paddledaddy,
I think the OO and the Ace are far enough apart that I can justify both ;D
The OO is so relaxing and cruisy and fun it will certainly be my 'go to' downwind board and the Ace will certainly be my 'go to' flat water board.
Probably most of the downwinders we do in Melbourne the CR would be the ideal board.
If you have both flat water and downwind conditions I'd go for both but certainly if I could only have one it would be the Coast Runner. Once it warms up a little I can see myself using the Ace for more demanding downwinders just for the challenge...
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Jonathan, I expect to lend you the 23" New for downwinders when the weather warms up. Surely a bay crossing on a 12'6" board is the next challenge.
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Thanks for the input Johnathan and others. Has DJ jumped on the ACE yet? I would like to see what he thinks of 25" wide at 205 pounds.
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Thanks for the input Johnathan and others. Has DJ jumped on the ACE yet? I would like to see what he thinks of 25" wide at 205 pounds.
No..not yet.. Yesterday we did a down-winder together in about 20+ knots and I was on my 17 and Jonathan was on his new 14' Ace.. So many times he would wait for me to catch up only to be gone again within a few minutes.. Being a quicker paddler and lighter may have something to do with it but I think the board had the most to do with it.. He was flying on that 25" wide board.. I'm sure I would find it pretty tippy.. We both got some GoPro vid that we haven't checked yet.. We did get one nice runner together.
DJ
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I've taken my 12'6" long, 23.5" wide NEW on 15mph downwinders and it's the fastest downwind board I've tried. You feel like you can catch almost any bump as long as you have the energy to paddle for it. It does feel much less secure than most boards though.
The 14' long 25" wide Ace should be quite a bit more stable than my board.
Seems like a lot of the low rocker boards are very fast in downwind conditions. The downside is that they're more technical to trim on a bump.
Jonathan, looking forward to your report. I'd be interested in your view on the tradeoff between speed and comfort.
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Here is the video from the 20 knot downwinder I did with DJ and Bruce, sorry it's so long, just couldn't help myself....
As for the title of the video, well actually that's exactly how it felt, It's Not Fair ;D
It's Not Fair (http://vimeo.com/27048692)
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You, the Ace, and those conditions seem like a perfect match! Curious to see how the Ace will go with someone heavier in the open ocean, that might help me decide whether to get one or not. Keep the videos coming!
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You sure looked fast on the Ace. Seems like you were catching what you wanted and staying on the bumps quite a while.
Apart from being blazing fast, how was the board for stability, trimming, and steering?
It sure looked like fun.
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You sure looked fast on the Ace. Seems like you were catching what you wanted and staying on the bumps quite a while.
Apart from being blazing fast, how was the board for stability, trimming, and steering?
It sure looked like fun.
It was fun!
Catching waves felt almost effortless in the conditions of that run, DJ and I were trying to line up and catch a wave together, a couple of times I actually had to back paddle to avoid catching them before we were ready!
The Ace has this incredible secondary stability, at one point in the video I'm showing DJ that I can lift up one foot while standing in the 'trough' with the other foot, I'll look for it later. And that seems to be the key, while its narrow it is stable - at least with my weight and its a matter of not fighting the feeling of initial tippyness and trusting that it will not go right over. Don't know if you can see the horizon moving all over the place but it certainly is a bit rolly-polly but actually not an issue. I haven't fallen off yet and I must have put in at least 10 hours on it.
I was also pleasantly surprised with the ability to trim and steer, it doesn't have any tendency to round up and broach across the wave like the K15 does, the nose shape is very similar to the Open Ocean and is very forgiving running across the wave face.
As far as steering goes it certainly isn't in the same league as the Open Ocean but once you are back a little it does steer quite well and responds to foot pressure like a normal surf board - that is, left hand foot pressure equals left hand turn. Certainly no issue turning to trim across the face of the wave.
You may be able to see in the video I was mucking around with different ways to move on the board, quite often doing little two legged hops back and forward and sometimes shuffling one foot in front of the other. I was certainly moving pretty constantly and now I've spent a bit more time on the board didn't have that claustrophobic "my feet are in a trench" feeling. It actually felt quite natural stepping back into surfing stance. At one stage I found myself with both feet right back in the end of the 'tub' jammed side by side! That wasn't ideal for stability...just a matter of getting used to it though. Seems to be plenty of rocker, but that may all go wrong once the waves get steeper.
One interesting observation from the downwinder, heading out to the start and also coming in through the marina we cop the wind side on, I expected the nose to get pushed downwind but it doesn't. Probably because the nose rocker is low and the nose is so rounded (maybe it's getting lift like a wing ;)), that was always a huge issue with the K15, very difficult to paddle across the wind.
Sounds crazy but there is the big flat sided tail of the board and a lot of wind catching area behind the fin, that must help keep it straight when paddling across the wind. It is actually one of the easiest boards to paddle across the wind and maintain, or even gain, ground that I have tried.
Sorry for the raving, I'm still in the infatuation phase of the relationship....keep thinking what it would be like in carbon :o
Hopefully someone heavier than I am can get onto the 27" wide version, I'd imagine that would be great too.
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Damn that looks like fun
...and I thought my 12"6' was good at catching bumps >:(
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Did DJ ever try this board on a downwind? WHat would be the upper weight limit for it (assuming average balance of the rider) in moderate downwind conditions?
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Did DJ ever try this board on a downwind? WHat would be the upper weight limit for it (assuming average balance of the rider) in moderate downwind conditions?
No.. Not yet.. Maybe when the water warms up.. ;D .. We are heading into our Summer soon.
I'm sure I'd be fine on it in flat water but on a DW'er I'm sure I'd find it pretty tippy at my weight.
We have a couple of DW days coming up later this week so I might have a go then.
DJ
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I'm sure I'd be fine on it in flat water but on a DW'er I'm sure I'd find it pretty tippy at my weight.
We have a couple of DW days coming up later this week so I might have a go then.
DJ
I bet you guys are looking forward to some warmer conditions...
I remember seeing a picture with feet submerged on a board - was that the Jonathan's ACE?
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I remember seeing a picture with feet submerged on a board - was that the Jonathan's ACE?
That was me on Paul's 23" wide 'New'.. (proto.. ex EJ board)
DJ
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...thought I might fall in but was pleasantly surprised with the stability of the board and blown away by the tiny lumpy little runners it could catch. Amazingly stable for a 25" board and DRY FEET!...
Without doubt, the fastest light wind downwind board I've ever been on...
Well, JC, after studying your videos, reading all about it and looking at pictures over and over again, I feel this will be my next sup.I strongly favor prone paddleboard inspired designs in sup, so I currently paddle a LahuiKai Surftech Mitcho 14. I have no issues with the LK stability at all. I am 160 lbs at 6ft tall.
The stability concerns me with the ACE 25".
I paddle in mixed conditions, no more than 1 meter swells on 15knot downwinders, lots of flatwater too.
I've demo'ed Javelin, Bark Dominator.
How would you compare the Ace's stability against these two? Other Zoner's comments welcome!
No Starbies here to demo...
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Hi Balance-fit:
I am 200 pounds and own the ACE 12'6"x25". Actually mine is "the New" but it's the same board as the ACE. Anyway, these boards are more stable than you would expect because you are standing so low in the sunken foot wells. It is less stable than the Bark production boards but more stable than a Javeline. These boards are a lot of fun because they tend to ride over chop instead of getting smacked around by it. They also cheat the wind surprisingly well. I think all the rounded edges allow the wind to wrap around without pushing any large flat sides like you find on many other boards. Enjoy. By the way I have the 12'6"x25" New for sale on the west coast of Florida. If anyone is interested.
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.......these boards are more stable than you would expect because you are standing so low in the sunken foot wells....These boards are a lot of fun because they tend to ride over chop instead of getting smacked around by it. They also cheat the wind surprisingly well.
Thanks for your reply paddledaddy !
The sunken footwells are one of the reasons i like the ACE. It makes a lot of sense to lower the paddler's stance, increasing stability, and allowing one to use a narrower beam. Two ways of improving speed.
The feeling of riding over chop as you describe it, is another of the reasons i prefer concave bottoms over piercing-bow designs for mixed waters and downwinds too.
My current sup, the LK 14, has the double concave bottom and it floats over chop as it were not there. As i have seen, the ACE has a concave bottom under the standing area too. Not being perturbed by chop really helps stability too!
I had the opportunity of paddling two very popular 12'6" with piercing noses and v'd bottoms, and, even though they went very well dead against the wind, any side chop or gust caused an inmediate change in course that was quite tiring to correct over and over again. Not mentioning going upwind with a beam wind in anything over 1 foot chop. Horrible.
This doesn't happen with the double concave bottom i ride now and i hope the ACE performs similarly in this respect, which is a secondary concern.
My biggest worry is the stability in crosschop and your comments really helped to attenuate the worry !
Thanks and be well,
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Just came home from a paddle on the Ace, paddled with a buddy in open ocean conditions with lots of backwash from rocks and islands, 4' ocean swell running and very disturbed water state from days of wind, still blowing 10 to 15 knots. VERY trying conditions stability wise, and you know what, I did exactly the same paddle yesterday on the Ace in slightly smaller but similar conditions.
Well today I did fall off twice over a 5 mile paddle, yesterday stayed dry, but the way that board pierces through all that slop and catches runners on the way home is truly remarkable. I have a Race 14 x 28 Open Ocean which surely would have been the 'sensible' option for these conditions but there is just something about that 14 x 25 Ace that keeps on making me take it out in the worst conditions! The nose stays low and allows the board to catch a swell and stay on it even when it seems like the swell has been swamped in cross chop.
Trouble is this board spoils you, I find now getting onto anything else is a let-down, I'll only take out the Open Ocean if its absolutely wild, in fact I was really close to selling the OO because I'm just not using it. Quite a contrast because 6 months ago I couldn't believe how good the OO was and how much improved from the model before, of course it's still fantastic and very stable....just something about the Ace
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........open ocean conditions with lots of backwash from rocks and islands, 4' ocean swell running and very disturbed water state from days of wind, still blowing 10 to 15 knots. VERY trying conditions stability wise....but the way that board pierces through all that slop and catches runners........there is just something about that 14 x 25 Ace that keeps on making me take it out in the worst conditions! The nose stays low and allows the board to catch a swell and stay on it even when it seems like the swell has been swamped in cross chop.
Trouble is this board spoils you......just something about the Ace.......
Hi JC ! Glad to hear you had a blast !!
Those conditions you describe are quite similar to the worst case scenario i would dare to face ! I choose my downwind days to be smaller, organized, but with similar winds. It's very encouraging to know you faced such seas and only fell off twice. Any gps readings for that run?
Seems the ACE is very well rounded in it's capabilities and this draws me closer to buying one. The fact you're choosing it instead of the OO speaks highly of it. My current sup, LK14, is very stable at almost 28" wide, possibly similar in stability to the OO. I love it's prone paddle board inspired design, similar in some respect to the ACE.
Handling cross chop is something i appreciate very much. I suspect that the nose and concave bottom of this board has a lot to do with it.
Did the cockpit ever swamped?
Many thanks for the info, be well !
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Counting the days until my 14' x 25" Ace arrives. Come on big cargo ship, move your arse.
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Counting the days until my 14' x 25" Ace arrives. Come on big cargo ship, move your arse.
Ohhhh......I should be in this ritual soon....PT, please share the stoke when it arrives !
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Hi balance_fit, the cockpit never really goes close to swamping, there are four drain holes now and to be honest I had to scratch my head and think about water around my feet. Just don't actually remember any water in the cockpit at all, I'm sure it comes in but must drain straight out. I'm light, about 150 so I guess its floating quite high in the water.
Was thinking this morning as I was paddling that I'd love to try the 27" Ace, the conditions I was in were really pretty testing and it would be nice to have some more stability to really relax and put the power down, just cant get my head around the fact that the 27" has 89 litres more volume than the 25" version. For crying out loud, my 7'4" POD is only 110 litres total!
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...the cockpit never really goes close to swamping...
... the 27" has 89 litres more volume than the 25" version....
Hi JonathanC
I weigh only 10 lbs more, and swamping shouldn't be an issue with my weight. Seems the 4 drainholes do the job pretty fine !
It'll be interesting to read your review on the 27". Even though it should be more stable because of width, the extra volume could float your weight higher, so that the center of gravity of the paddler/sup combo may be higher than in the 25". This could make it less stable than intended. Maybe crosswind could also affect it more....just musing...
I had a Mitcho 12'6" for several months as tryout. I loved it except for the initial tipiness, which was just too much in choppy seas. If the 25" ACE has slightly better initial stability than the Mitcho 12'6", I'm game !
Thanks for your review, be well
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Did the cockpit ever swamped?
Many thanks for the info, be well !
Aloha BF,
Even at 185 pounds the cockpit does not swamp. Of course I cannot take the board out in heavy conditions and expect to stay upright, so I haven't tested it in really rough conditions, but it takes less water than the surf ski and because the bottom of the footwells are still above the water line, and doesn't have the drainage issue of trying to create a vacuum to drain the water.
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I have a prototype 12'6" New that has only 2 drain holes as well as a production New from the first year and it has 4 holes but in different positions to the current boards. Having also paddled Jonathan's 14', I can tell you, Szymansky has improved the drainage with each iteration of the board. The prototype always has an inch or so of water and I did get swamped once after being hit by a big wave. But the latest boards are much better and as Jonathan says, if there's a tiny amount of water at your feet, you don't even notice.
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Hi 1paddle2paddle and PT Woody
From Jonathan's pictures at the beginning of the thread it seems the drains sit a couple inches above the sharp edge of the ACE's bottom, when looking at the side rail. From the inside of the cockpit the drains look flush with the footwells. I can guesstimate that when underway, the footwells are a good inch above water and the drains another inch above.
When paddling, with the natural side to side dipping of the rails, and chop, the drains got to be submerged many times. Water doesn't backflow into the footwells !! ...after watching Jonathan's videos, the footwells look dry.
I remember my surfski and oc1 days. With a single footwell, my V10 would take several seconds to drain through the single drain...bummer ! The oc1 had twin bulleted drains, one for each footwell. Those things sucked water like a pump ! The ACE's drains do the job very well, it seems.
I look forward to your reviews on this excellent board !
I appreciate it very much, may all be well
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I actually don't know how well the drains work on the ACE. It seems to be an entirely different situation than a surfski where the boat has to create a vacuum to draw the water out of the bottom of the footwell since that area is below the waterline.
I guess a test would be to take the ACE out through small waves and let a wave come over the boat and fill the sunken deck with water, and see how long it takes to drain, and whether the board needs to be moving forward to drain (or if that even helps).
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This test will surely dispell any remaining fears regarding drainage of the cockpit. Watching the videos laid to rest most of my concerns in this aspect.
I am quite close to the point of deciding it's going to be my next sup. The stability concerns still assault me, but I'm almost convinced that for under 1 meter seas downwind, 15 knot of wind and, mixed chop up to 1 foot, this is the board.
Waiting for PT Woody's reviews !
May all be well
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Hey BF,
If you can demo one, obviously do that before pulling the trigger. I never paddled an ACE 14' x 25" before purchase, but I paddled a 12'6 x 27" version. It took me one good flatwater session on that 12'6 to realize it was a special shape, but I wanted to go even more extreme so went for the longer and narrower board. I'm probably on the heavy side of what works on that board, but in flat water it just flies and I like how it "tests" my balance even inside the marina in fairly flat water (chop normally 6" or less). But my wife really enjoys it, so for lighter riders it must be very comfortable.
I have taken it on one downwind run, and the conditions were close to the max of what I could handle on it (and would be no problem on a dedicated downwind board). Before you purchase an ACE for downwind, you should realize that you cannot step back and turn the ACE like you can do on other boards; stepping back merely sinks the tail more and does not pull the nose up. So what ends up happening is that you catch the bump and then try to use the paddle to "body english" the board, but you don't have a ton of control and mostly go where the board wants to go (straight ahead).
Aloha,
Scott
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I got to tell you all how grateful i am for you reviews, comments, pictures and recommendations. It is through this info that i can make an informed decision since...there are no starbies here to demo!
I currently paddle a 14 x 27 3/4 " LK and it's very comfy in my usual conditions....even so, it's not an ACE. My sup is also pintail, although not as narrow, it's maneuverability on the runs is quite limited too. I tend to prefer prone paddle board inspired designs such as my LK and SB. I prefer concave bottom, pintails and broad bows on my boards. I feel they perform better in our mixed waters.
At 160 lb, i might be feeling similar on the ACE to those +/- 15 lbs. Videos have been a great resource to see how the board performs in similar conditions to the ones i face. Head and stern mounted shots are excellent resources !
But, none substitute demo'ing....
Thanks guys !
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I actually don't know how well the drains work on the ACE. It seems to be an entirely different situation than a surfski where the boat has to create a vacuum to draw the water out of the bottom of the footwell since that area is below the waterline.
I guess a test would be to take the ACE out through small waves and let a wave come over the boat and fill the sunken deck with water, and see how long it takes to drain, and whether the board needs to be moving forward to drain (or if that even helps).
They work quite well as long as your moving. I managed to get them full to the brim when its wild, as long as you stay moving they drain quickly. Ohh and don't kneel it seems to screw up the drains
You can get swamped on downwinders though especially cross chop from behind. That really sucks cause the board just stops
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Hey BF,
If you can demo one, obviously do that before pulling the trigger. I never paddled an ACE 14' x 25" before purchase, but I paddled a 12'6 x 27" version. It took me one good flatwater session on that 12'6 to realize it was a special shape, but I wanted to go even more extreme so went for the longer and narrower board. I'm probably on the heavy side of what works on that board, but in flat water it just flies and I like how it "tests" my balance even inside the marina in fairly flat water (chop normally 6" or less). But my wife really enjoys it, so for lighter riders it must be very comfortable.
I have taken it on one downwind run, and the conditions were close to the max of what I could handle on it (and would be no problem on a dedicated downwind board). Before you purchase an ACE for downwind, you should realize that you cannot step back and turn the ACE like you can do on other boards; stepping back merely sinks the tail more and does not pull the nose up. So what ends up happening is that you catch the bump and then try to use the paddle to "body english" the board, but you don't have a ton of control and mostly go where the board wants to go (straight ahead).
Aloha,
Scott
And once you get too side on to the wave your in >:( (or at least I am)
Still a great board though
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Hey BF,
If you can demo one, obviously do that before pulling the trigger.... So what ends up happening is that you catch the bump and then try to use the paddle to "body english" the board, but you don't have a ton of control and mostly go where the board wants to go (straight ahead).
And once you get too side on to the wave your in >:( (or at least I am)
Still a great board though
Mmm...interesting remarks about the ACE's handling. I currently paddle a LK 14 and have experienced similar behavior, i suspect, because of a similar outline (concave bottom, high rails, pintail), on runners and beam waves.
On the LK 14 i maneuver in between runs by countersteering in midstance when not planing and can still maneuver a bit with same side foot pressure after stepping back when on bigger runs. Side swells i try to handle by keeping a relaxed stance, or swim...
I feel the ACE handles similarly as per your comments.
What i feel is very attractive about the ACE is it's reported speed, ease of catching small bumps as seen on vids, plus how the bow handles close together windswell downwinds.
These are exactly my conditions here !
Again, thanks to all and be well !
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You can get swamped on downwinders though especially cross chop from behind. That really sucks cause the board just stops
Hi Kaihoe
Sorry for missing your comments ! When and if you get swamped under these conditions, how long does it take for the water to drain so that you can resume paddling?
I suspect this happens under 20knot plus winds, true?
My appreciation for your comments, be well
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Aloha BF,
To test the drains on the ACE, I paddled through a small wave which broke over the bow and dumped a bunch of water in the cockpit(?) - whatever you call the sunken area on the ACE. I could definitely notice the extra weight, and there was probably 2" of water at the deepest point. It drained the majority of the water within 10 seconds with me paddling forward, and wasn't an issue for me after that.
Since you are familiar with surf skis, I can say that getting "swamped" in the ACE is not as significant as getting swamped in the Fenn XT, where the boat could take about 5 gallons of water in one wave and just totally bog.
Scott
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Aloha BF,
To test the drains on the ACE, I paddled through a small wave which broke over the bow and dumped a bunch of water in the cockpit(?) - whatever you call the sunken area on the ACE. I could definitely notice the extra weight, and there was probably 2" of water at the deepest point. It drained the majority of the water within 10 seconds with me paddling forward, and wasn't an issue for me after that.
Since you are familiar with surf skis, I can say that getting "swamped" in the ACE is not as significant as getting swamped in the Fenn XT, where the boat could take about 5 gallons of water in one wave and just totally bog.
Scott
Hi Scott
I see that the swamping issue is no more. 10 seconds of paddling to clear the .... cockpit ... isn't a serious concern. Besides, i don't go against waves that often ! Mly biggest worries were from side swell or rear waves coming in. Now i rest assured.
I got truly swamped by waves both on the XT, the V10 and the OC1. The feeling was exactlly as you describe, sunk and bog-ed. I'm very glad to know that the ACE is way less prone to 'swamping' than the skis.
I thank you very much for taking the time to go test and report your findings. I went today and talked to the owner of our local sup shop. He is going to bring a container with several starboard shapes, among which, ... guess what, is an ACE 14 x 25" ! I'll be able to demo !
I truly look forward to this demo and will keep you all updated, you've all been very helpful in schooling me !
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Aloha BF,
One thing I failed to mention is that side winds with some bump is a challenge (for me at least) on that board. I was paddling today in some slop and I had forgotten how much it can roll when getting bumps from 90 degrees. Definitely challenging my balance.
Scott
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So is this board faster in in flat water compared to regular displacement boards, choppy waters, or both?
From a starboard rider I heard its designed for a little rougher kinda california westcoast waters that are choppy with some swell.
But it sounds like once chops appears its hard to balance on it and the fact that the nose just rolls over the swell instead of penetrates it really goes out the window when you are in the water.
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Mitchell,
I believe the board is mostly designed as a flat water board. I think the best way to describe the feel of it in flat water is "efficient" - like it does not require as much effort to keep it gliding, and it does not feel like it is "pushing" water. This attribute sticks with the board from plate glass through small chop (up to 6" or perhaps more). Once the water gets "sporty" (as I saw someone else on this board describe water with some texture to it, and this will vary according to rider weight and skill), balancing on the board becomes an issue and once that occurs, the board probably loses the advantage it has over more stable boards.
While its clearly not designed as a "downwind" board, it can be used as such in light wind conditions (again, depending on rider weight and skill), and it can really be fun in small wave downwind conditions.
Scott
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I have the older version of the Ace, which was called the NEW.
I'd say the 25" Ace is a great downwind board in light to moderate conditions - assuming you have decent balance and weigh somewhere around 175lbs or less. By light to moderate, I mean up to about 20 mph (25mph if you have better than average balance). My board goes downwind in those conditions better than any other I've tried.
Although it was originally designed as a race board, I don't think it's as fast in flat water as some other dedicated displacement style race boards. My 25.5" wide custom Bark is faster, for example.
If I want to get around a race course handling multiple directions (upwind, downwind, side wind) in flat water to light chop, the Bark is faster than my Starboard. If I want to have fun catching small downwind runners, I'll take the Starboard. The Starboard is not as good going upwind as a displacement board with a piercing nose like the Bark, but for me, it's worth working a bit harder going upwind with the Starboard to have a lot more fun going downwind after turning around.
The Ace will feel more tippy initially because of its rounded bottom, but it's actually pretty good when it comes to secondary stability. You can rock it sideways quite a bit without falling off once you get used to it. It'll take you several sessions in choppy water to get used to the initial tippyness, but once you do, it should feel pretty stable. I'm guessing that the rounded bottom helps me"feel" the downwind runners better and react faster than a more squared off rail design like the Bark.
In really flat water, I prefer something that doesn't push as much water in the nose as the Ace. The Ace has a round nose that does push more water than boards with piercing noses. A different Starboard like the Ace Pro would be faster in flat water. However, I don't think the Ace Pro would be nearly as much fun as the Ace when the wind picks up to 13-25mph.
The Ace does have a pin tail which makes the water release at the tail much smoother than most boards. The Ace Pro has both a piercing nose and a pin tail - a no compromise design for flat water speed, but more tippy as a result.
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Argosi
Very complete review ! Thank you very much.
I usually paddle in no stronger than 15 - 20 knot downwinds and, believe me, going upwind over 10 knots is truly a workout, in any board !
I race some times, although it's not my main purpose in sup. I do love to have as fast a board as i can balance in, for workouts in mixed water with chop, say, 1 foot, and sometimes up to 3 foot ocean swell. That's it.
I do value a downwinder better than a flatwater capability on a sup. Even so, i still prefer sleek race shapes for our small downwinders, instead of going for a dedicated downwind sup.
Regarding stability, i had a Lahui Kai 12'6" Mitcho for awhile, which regarded as a quite a tippy board, and was ok with it unless i was in 3+ foot ocean swells with wind. Under those conditions, it was more energy devoted to balancing than for paddling.
I don't look at the ACE Pro, because, i also paddle downwinders and mixed waters. I feel the Pro's bow would bury under in downwind conditions.
I'm looking at a 2011 ACE. Does someone in the forum have information or pictures regarding the difference between this and the 2012 model?
As always, i'm very grateful to you all, i owe you quite a good chunk of info and videos/pictures once i get my new ACE.
May all be well
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I would also like to get some opinions about the difference between 2011 and 2012 models of the ace.
Does anyone know if the 14'x25" ace used in the Ausie test was a 2011 or a 2012?
Also, is the 25" version actually faster than the 27" for someone around 200 pounds. I had a 12'6"x26 New and I just wasn't very fast on it. I loved the way the board felt but I think I sank too much board in the water.
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In one of the threads related to the ACE it's mentioned that the 2012 has increased bow rocker ... but, can't remember where it was posted. Will search.
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I would also like to get some opinions about the difference between 2011 and 2012 models of the ace.
Does anyone know if the 14'x25" ace used in the Ausie test was a 2011 or a 2012?
Also, is the 25" version actually faster than the 27" for someone around 200 pounds. I had a 12'6"x26 New and I just wasn't very fast on it. I loved the way the board felt but I think I sank too much board in the water.
Pretty sure they were 2012 model boards in the test.. and I asked that question (about what's changed) and was told that very little if anything has changed between the 2011 and 2012 model Aces.. and the 25" Ace is faster than the 27" Ace even for someone around 200 lbs.. but it is also slightly more tippy.
DJ
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Very subtle changes between 2011 and 2012, slight change in the tucked rail position under the board. Really not enough to worry about if you can get a deal on the 2011. The one tested was the 2012.
The speed difference is surprisingly small between the two boards and at 200lbs I think you would need to be more experienced/skilled to really notice a big speed difference. Any feeling of the wobbles or balance checks very quickly erode any speed advantage a narrower board provides.
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We did a 2 hour race in choppy and windy conditions just last weekend. Camo had a choice of the 28" or the 25" Ace boards and he decided the wide boy was the way to go. I had the choice between the 25" Ace and a Coast Runner. I decided my only chance to beat Camo was to outgun him with a skinnier board so I took the 25" Ace. Unfortunately I ended up in the drink about 5 times and Camo stayed dry. He also had me beaten comprehensively for board speed. That wide Ace is still a very fast board in the right hands. Going back on our test results, I didn't publish this at the time but I used a Garmin GPS to record top end speed on every board and the 28" Ace was surprisingly the quickest board of the lot for me and by a considerable margin.
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I didn't publish this at the time but I used a Garmin GPS to record top end speed on every board and the 28" Ace was surprisingly the quickest board of the lot for me and by a considerable margin.
Wow.. even quicker than the Jav and the Bark?
DJ
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Easily quicker than the Jav and the Bark. The only thing that came close was a 12'6" Fanatic, believe it or not. Of course, with just one rider, the stats are prone to error based on environmental changes that can't be equalised across a broad test. Originally the big basketball player was also recording speeds but his Garmin failed. I have my figures written down somewhere, I'll have to dig them out.
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We did a 2 hour race in choppy and windy conditions just last weekend. Camo had a choice of the 28" or the 25" Ace boards and he decided the wide boy was the way to go. I had the choice between the 25" Ace and a Coast Runner. I decided my only chance to beat Camo was to outgun him with a skinnier board so I took the 25" Ace. Unfortunately I ended up in the drink about 5 times and Camo stayed dry. He also had me beaten comprehensively for board speed. That wide Ace is still a very fast board in the right hands. Going back on our test results, I didn't publish this at the time but I used a Garmin GPS to record top end speed on every board and the 28" Ace was surprisingly the quickest board of the lot for me and by a considerable margin.
PT do you mean the 27" Ace or the 28" Ace Pro?
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Sorry, I meant the 27" Ace - that's the one Camo won the race on and also the one that I found to be fastest top end speed at our 14' board tests.
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PT - was the 14 x 27" ACE was fastest of all the 14' boards for you? Even beat out the 25" ACE?
Was the 27" ACE fastest overall for everyone?
I had been thinking that for our downwinders the 27" ACE might be faster than the 25" ACE for me since I would spend more time paddling and less time swimming.
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PT, have you performed any gps speed comparison between Coast Runner and ACE 14' x 25", in any conditions..top speed, average, flat, down / upwind, etc?
Very interesting the fact that the 27" can allow the paddler to record a faster top end speed to a light paddler, even if wider. Would the extra volume have something to do with it?
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IMO.. This 'one off' gps top speed during the test is not to be taken too seriously.
During the test the conditions started to change with a strong at times gusty tail wind down to the turn and head wind heading back.. Getting a strong tail wind gust on the way down and then getting a lull in the wind heading back would give you a great time overall and if the gust was strong enough you could almost catch a ripple and almost surf it (more like getting a push from behind) for a second or two like getting a little runner and it would only need to be a few seconds to record a high gps speed.. I had the opposite happen when I paddled the Jav.. I had calm conditions on the way down to the turn point and just as I turned got hit with a gust so strong for a few seconds I struggled to maintain my possition let alone move forward into the wind.. This killed my overall time.
The 27" wide Ace was not consistently the fatest board with all paddlers.. It just happened to be or PT.. Maybe the extra width gave him the ability to get more power down who knows.. But you can't read too much into one persons gps results.. But still I'd be interested to see them.. ;D
DJ
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The reasons DJ provides are the reasons I didn't publish those results. If the other paddler with a GPS was able to provide his speeds, we would have had some sort of mildly valid data but as it stands, it was just a curiosity. For the record, I achieved one of the best overall times on the wide Ace and I totally expected to blitz on the skinny Ace but only set a modest time on that board. Again, the later conditions and possibly fatigue had an impact on the comparative times.
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I do not have a lot of confidence in the numbers the Garmin spits out. I have junked my 305 and bought a Locosys GT-31 GPS. It's the GPS used by most of the Windsurfers, Kiters etc for speed records. I trust the numbers I'm seeing and find it a better tool for measuring our "speedy" SUP's.
I use to watch the speed numbers on the Garmin's screen bounce all over the place as I paddled. Average speeds and distance would be about right but I gave up on looking at max speeds over let's say a 20 second period and it never looked right.
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I am actually quite surprised with how accurate the numbers I get from my Garmin seem to be. I'm like ultra-nerd because I typically have TWO Garmins on me when I train - the 305 on my wrist, and an old Foretrex 201 which i have "mounted" with pipe tape to the front of my board, and which is set to display only speed. I use the 201 like a speedometer to give me speed readings in real time while I'm paddling.
The numbers which are recorded by the two GPS units are uncannily similar. If I get a spike in my number its more likely that I caught an odd boat wake or a wave which allowed the speed to increase for a brief period, as invariably both units record the same spike. I've never had a situation when I got some ridiculous reading on one but not the other.
Getting back to the topic of the ACE 27", I agree that the conditions of a particular run may have had more to do with a particular top speed, especially if that speed were just a brief uptick. As DJ noted, getting a blast of wind in the face can do murder to a particular sprint, but a nice gust from behind can give you a great run.
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I bought the 2011 14x25" Ace AST that JC used to own and am amazed at this board. We do a 4.3km (3.66mile) flat water course with three turns around a lake, once a week with staggered starts that have us all finish about the same time. I'm 51 and keep setting PB times on this board, whilst hard to turn its also initially tippy but just gets more stable the faster it goes. My average speed is 9.05 km/hr or 5.6mph on the course.
I use a Speedpuck GPS to measure speed and this board just cruises along at the 9-10 km/hr.
Downwinders are a blast in up to 15kts for me, the board just accelerates into runners and just sits there. For rougher conditions id probably be better off with a carbon Ace 27", but have a daughters wedding coming up so no upgrades for now I'm also paddling the Ke Nalu blades which I love.
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Any more updates from the Ace owners? Any more videos? Anybody know the weights of the boards?
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14 x 25" AST weighs in at 35.5 pounds per my cheapo scale.
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14 x 25" AST weighs in at 35.5 pounds per my cheapo scale.
Is that with the fin or bare?
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14' x 25" carbon Ace without fin weighed 31.6 pounds on my scale (a nice digital scale meant for body weight - I weighed myself holding the Ace and then without the Ace and subtracted the numbers).
The listed spec weights are 29.66lbs for carbon and 32.65lbs for AST.
So the carbon board I weighed was about a 2lbs heaver than spec.
If the AST was 35.5lbs (assuming without fin) as measured by 1paddle2paddle, then it's about 3.9lbs heavier than carbon. Not sure if it's worth the big price premium for carbon. Probably doesn't make much difference at all on the water but a bigger difference when carrying the board or loading it on your car.
Both the carbon and AST boards are pretty damn heavy for such a fast board!
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So I finally got to try out a 14' x 25' Ace (carbon) a month ago. Only had it out in about 10mph of wind for 20 minutes but it lived up to my high expectations. It caught bumps better than any board I've tried, which is just a little better than my 12'6" x 23.5" Starboard NEW, my previous champ for bump catching.
It also stayed on the bumps better than any board I've tried - significantly better than my NEW. This made for less effort while paddling compared with my NEW. It's also more stable than my NEW. Didn't have time for a GPS test though.
A fast friend of mine did test out the carbon Ace with GPS and compared it with his carbon 14' Bark (which is a Dominator or very similar to a Dominator) over a sprint distance. The Ace averaged 7.5mph and his Bark averaged 6.8mph. That's a huge speed advantage the Ace had over his Bark! He was impressed but said he would never be able to get used to the footwells on the Ace. He prefers flat deck boards. And that was his first and only time on the Ace.
Unfortunately the carbon Ace isn't mine. An AST Ace was supposed to be coming along with the carbon Ace but it wasn't part of the shipment. I'm still waiting for my AST Ace.
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^^ I have a 14'x27" in Epoxy from last season - brand new - cheap.
You know my email! ;D
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^^ I have a 14'x27" in Epoxy from last season - brand new - cheap.
You know my email! ;D
Thanks but I really want the 25" wide version. The 27" one is great for heavier guys though.
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The 27" one is great for heavier guys though.
Funny you should say that...
I spent a couple of hours this morning trying out the 14x27 ACE carbon, I'm about 6'2 and hovering around 125kg, and a bit balance-challenged. I have to say at my size I wasn't expecting to have a good time on a 27" board but I was very pleasantly surprised at how tractable this craft is, once my brain relaxed into the initial rolliness of it. Conditions were light chop crossed up with some ship wake up to about a foot in places, and about 5-6kn headwind on the outbound leg. I found it really great upwind and straight into the chop, super-easy to catch and sit on a small runner with the swell and breeze directly behind but in side swell the wheels fell off a bit for me. It felt quick when it was working for me and when I was fresh but after the first hour the initial rolliness in the side chop had taken a bit more out of my legs than I'd realised (admittedly I've been pedalling more than paddling in recent weeks training for a hilly charity ride, and today was supposed to be a rest day, that will have contributed to the early leg fade).With a little bit of fatigue kicking in, the last 5km of my run home in fairly constant side swell were somewhat hard work. I took 4-5 involuntary swims, the thing truly is a PITA to climb back into but easy enough to get up and moving once there. I also tend to vary my stance a lot on my other, more conventional boards and I found the footwells narrow and a bit restrictive.
Pro: feels quick, lots more stable than expected, great straight upwind & down. and in flatter water.
Con: A bit of a handful in side swell/chop IMO. PITA to climb into after a fall. Footwells a bit restrictive.
Would I buy one? Maybe, if I were 20kg lighter, it sure goes quick when it's working right but overall I think the strengths of this board might be wasted on me. For a big bloke up to 105-110kg with a moderate degree of skill and fitness I'd say it's still well worth a look.
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Upwinder, I'd agree with your comments. Great summary with the Pros and Cons.
It does take a few sessions to get used to the board since it rolls sideways more easily than most boards.
Despite the cons, I love the Ace for the way it picks up and stays on bumps going downwind. The 25" wide version is also the fastest 14' board in flat water that I know of, however the narrow version is not be suitable for bigger guys.
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Regarding cons, I was able to tame the ACE's manners in side swell by using a fin with larger area than the stock one, specifically at the tip. Also, standing with my toes flush with the rear drain, using a higher cadence with a shortened paddle shaft, keeping momentum and paddling bare foot all helped.
Seems one needs to relax, keep paddling, and let the board dance underneath. Trying to counter weight the rolling of the board is futile.
I concur totally with Argosi in the fact that this board is, once the leg's are trained, faster against all others I've paddled in the 14 ft range.
Enjoy !
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I removed the fin, leash, and even those two handles and the board still weighed 35.5 pounds! My scale probably is not accurate enough to pick up the difference.
But I realized when I purchased the AST that it would be kind of heavy, and it does not bother me. But Starboard has to work on getting its carbon boards lighter. 30 pounds for a board retailing for $3000 is a bit much, especially with Bill Foote making 14 boards well under 20 pounds.
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Regarding cons, I was able to tame the ACE's manners in side swell by using a fin with larger area than the stock one, specifically at the tip.
Can you (or anyone) recommend a specific fin for the 14' x25" that might help with side swells...?
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Regarding cons, I was able to tame the ACE's manners in side swell by using a fin with larger area than the stock one, specifically at the tip.
Can you (or anyone) recommend a specific fin for the 14' x25" that might help with side swells...?
I just got my 14x25 last week so take my advice for what it's worth. First day out it was choppy and we had to paddled into headwind, about 10-15 mph. The ocean was very disorganized and I found myself using my paddle as a crutch to prevent falling in, I had the stock fin. The following day, conditions were a bit more calm, but similar. Replaced the stock fin with a Gladiator Hybrid, this improved tracking and seemed to slow down the tippyness.
As you know, swells from back or front is not much of a problem as swells from the side. The wind also tends to catch the high rails and start turning it, I think the Gladiator Hybrid helps the board stay on track compared to the stock fin. Perhaps the Gladiator Elite would be an even better option, I've yet to try that fin.
My board is carbon and weighs in around 31 lbs. At first I was a bit disappointed with the weight for such a pricey board, but after being on the board in choppy and open ocean conditions, I'm glad the board has some weight. Too light a board and the Ace would be corky. I'm guessing the weight helps the board keep momentum. The Ace is excellent downwind and upwind, catching the smallest of bumps and gliding over the most disturbed chop!
On flatwater, the board is plenty stable! In disorganized swells and open ocean Hawaiian swells, the tippyness can be a challenge but I'm finding with each voyage, the tippyness lessens.
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I just picked up my Gladiator hybrid fin from the post office ( thanks Casey), will be testing it in a Ace 14X25"carbon tomorrow.
I will see how my 240lbs goes in chop.
Maybe i will be buying the 27"
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I just picked up my Gladiator hybrid fin from the post office ( thanks Casey), will be testing it in a Ace 14X25"carbon tomorrow.
I will see how my 240lbs goes in chop.
Maybe i will be buying the 27"
240 lb on the 14'x25", wow! I'm 166, on my first day, I questioned whether I made the wrong decision by getting the 25 wide, but I didn't fall, and the more time I spent on the board, the better it got! Not sure if I'm ready for the downwind like Jonathan or Argosi, but with each trip, the tippiness goes away.
I'm curious what others are using for fins. The board feels really fast with ths stock fin, but in chop and wind, it just doesn't track well. The Gladiator Hybrid seems to stable things out, but I'm not sure if it affects overall speed. Course if it reduces balance checks or falling in, overall speed will be improved.
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Maybe i didn't convert that right :D
I'm about 218lb.
It's only a demo board so i will see how i go,
Trying to find a board that i can race in flat water and my 121lb wife can do light down winders on.
I will go back to my 29" board when downwinding ;D
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Here's a link to a page with lots of info on the Ace, including photos and a video: http://kayaksport.phanfare.com/5729757 (http://kayaksport.phanfare.com/5729757)
I've included the text here as well:
The Fastest 14' Board Around
Don't forget to view the photos, video, and slide show after the commentary below.
The Starboard Ace 14' x 25" has proven itself as likely the fastest SUP board in flatwater, small chop, and mild to moderate downwind conditions. The top speed performance in such varied conditions is unparalleled among SUP boards.
The board has an advantage over other race boards in upwind or downwind conditions. The rounded nose floats over upwind chop rather than piercing through it like many other race boards. Unexpectedly, this nose design has proven to result in faster upwind speed than piercing noses. This advantage is most easily seen when paddling the Ace side by side with other race boards going upwind - we haven't come across a faster upwind board.
When going downwind, it'll be obvious to the experienced downwind paddler that the Ace catches even the smallest bumps better than pretty much any other board. Side by side testing makes this apparent as well.
The amazing thing is that this board is also one of the fastest boards in flatwater conditions. We've never before seen a board that excels in such varied conditions.
Suggested weights for riders of average skill in different conditions:
Flat water: 185lbs or less
Small chop: 175lbs or less
Downwind: 165lbs or less (in mild to moderate conditions)
Riders with better than average skills can be heavier while novice paddlers should be lighter than the suggested weights.
This board will feel tippy when you first paddle it as the rounded rails cause it to roll side to side more easily. However, secondary stability is excellent which means you can tip it sideways a lot without falling in (with experience). The high sides and rounded rails are design factors that make the Ace so responsive and slippery in downwind and upwind conditions. So you need to be willing to spend some time on the board to get the most out of it. The rewards in fun and speed are definitely worth the effort. Some people actually find the learning process fun!
See the following links for more information on this board:
Comprehensive 14' board speed test where the Ace was the clear winner among 14 other race boards:
http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/RPS-SUP-Vic-ultimate-14-board-test-results/ (http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/RPS-SUP-Vic-ultimate-14-board-test-results/)
Seven pages of comments, photos, and videos from an open SUP forum discussing this board:
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=12489.0 (http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=12489.0)
Starboard's web site:
http://www.star-board-sup.com/2012/product/?q=ace-14-0-25 (http://www.star-board-sup.com/2012/product/?q=ace-14-0-25)
Email with summary results from the speed test of 14' boards:
Hi Mike and David,
Here's a link to a recent test done on 14 SUP boards, each one 14' long: http://www.supvic.com/the-rps-supvic-ultimate-14-board-test/ (http://www.supvic.com/the-rps-supvic-ultimate-14-board-test/) This is probably the best and most comprehensive speed test of SUP boards ever done.
They had 14 paddlers paddle each one of the 14 boards over a flat water 300m course with a 180 degree turn halfway. However 5 of the paddlers didn't test all 14 boards so their results were not included.
The winner of the test was the Starboard Ace 14' x 25", by a clear margin. It was interesting to see that this board was the fastest in flat water, which I didn't expect. I know that this board is also great in mild to moderate downwind conditions.
Here's a summary of the results:
So the accumulative total (each paddler's time on the board added together) for each board ranked by best time:
1. 19:06 - Starboard Ace 25
2. 19:36 (equal) - DC14 & NSP
4. 19:42 - Naish Javelin
5. 19:48 - Fanatic Fly Race Flat
6. 19:50 - Surftech Bark Dominator
7. 19:51 - Starboard Ace Pro
8. 19:52 - Starboard Ace 27
9. 20:10 - Surftech JM Paddleboards
10. 20:26 - Naish Glide
11. 20:34 - Fanatic Fly Race Open
12. 20:40 - Starboard Pierce Touring
13. 20:45 - Sunny King
14: 21:00 - Starboard Open Ocean AST
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Is there a consensus on what is the "best" fin for this board? I'm still using the stock fin and wondering if there is something which increases stability but does not slow the board.
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anyone know rider weights for the 27" for flat water small chop and downwind
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One of our crew just got the 27" - I think he's just over 100 kegs or about 225lb. He hasn't brought it out on a downwind run yet because he mangled his knee in a skiing accident. But I think he will have it running nicely this southern Summer.
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I have a couple Carbon 14'X25" Aces for sale.
Demo'd
Half Price.
Ralph
Sup-position
Huntington Beach, California, USA
(714) 899-3020
www.Sup-position.com (http://www.Sup-position.com)
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Been spending more time on the Ace and tippiness is not as pronounced as the first week of paddling, but it's still there. The challenge and progress is quite fun!
The comments and articles about this board is all spot on. In flatwater, the board is really stable at my 166 lb weight and it glides with little effort. Does not feel like 31 lbs of board on the water. As chop and wind picks up, the board just eats it all up, especially the bigger chop and wind! Keep the motor running and the Ace will just pound through the tough stuff all the while making progress while others will be burrying their noses. Going with swells the Ace grabs everything! Even boat wakes in a calm bay are rideable! In open ocean, where the swells become more disorganized, the Ace is a bit more challenging. Especially if the speed is not up such as between glides or into the swells or when swell and wind is coming from the side. The more I'm on the board, the more I realize that the Ace can probably do it all, it's the paddler whose holding back it's potential.
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Is there a consensus on what is the "best" fin for this board? I'm still using the stock fin and wondering if there is something which increases stability but does not slow the board.
I asked a few folks about a good fin choice for the 14x25" Ace. Larry recommended the Elite Gladiator. I told him i mostly in flat water and 190lbs of weight at 6'4". I ask a couple of others what they use on there Ace and got 1 Curtis fins Ell grass race, and 1 Future Fins - Triangle Cutaway lg. They said those larger fins made a big difference in stability.
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I just got my Ace Yesterday, used, but new to me. :)
Looking at It I see it is not like the others. Not sure why.
(keep in mind i have never seen another Ace in person)
1. The drain holes are far apart, little over 24" apart.
2. It has a flat bottom. (Literature says it should be concave)
3. The tail has a little bevel to it. See Photo
4. The cockpit looks bigger than the photos ive seen but this may be photo angles. the nose is 4'3"long, the cockpit is 8'3" long (top to top) then the tail 18".
5. The signature.
No biggy, Im just curious as to why mine might be different. I was just hoping someone could shed some light on the differences.
I would like to no what difference the flat bottom might make or if others also have flat bottoms?
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Hi Fishman
I have the 2011 Ace 14' x 25" and it looks different in the cockpit (drains close together) and no bevel on the tail.
Not sure about the concave though. Have you placed a strait edge perpendicular to the bottom of your Ace? On my board, the concave is subtle, it won't jump to the eye.
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Hi Fishman
I have the 2011 Ace 14' x 25" and it looks different in the cockpit (drains close together) and no bevel on the tail.
Not sure about the concave though. Have you placed a strait edge perpendicular to the bottom of your Ace? On my board, the concave is subtle, it won't jump to the eye.
Yeah, i rolled and sled a 48" floresent light bulb from one end to the other. No concave anywhere. Almost perfectly flat. Just slightest bow outward/convex.
It does not have any handles ether. ???
Here's another photo of the cockpit.
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Some pictures of my Ace's cockpit for the purpose of comparison. And of the bottom to show where the concave is (although won't show in the picture) inside the black lines, where the Starboard logo and measurements are located.
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Thanks B & Fit.
Huh, You know, the board doesn't say Ace anywhere.
I don't think mine is a Ace after all. The signature says "Elite Racing Design". I'm puzzled, I bought it as a 2011 Ace. It looks like a standard production board AST, it even says made in Thailand. :-\
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Fishman, I think you have something like a custom board, or perhaps a very limited run version, it is definitely not a production ACE. Maybe they only made a few of those in Thailand?
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It looks to me like it's a 'New' more than an 'Ace'.
DJ
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I got a 2012 model, looks like Balance Fit's board. I saw pics of team riders with a board like yours with the leash plug on the slope. Flat bottom...25" wide? Weight? No handle inserts huh? Must be limited run or custom.
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Yeah, I does look a bit like the new.
14" x 25".,35 lbs.
The no handle kind of sucks because some finger issues.
It looks like the trem ELITE means it an't normal. :D
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Yeah, I does look a bit like the new.
14" x 25".,35 lbs.
The no handle kind of sucks because some finger issues.
It looks like the trem ELITE means it an't normal. :D
You can stick a piece of firm foam or deck pad just down a bit on the inside/side at the balance point to let your fingers grip aginst it when carrying the board.. It works very well.
DJ
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They didn't make a 14' New. This might be a pre-production 14' Ace with slight changes made before production run. The New was 2010. The Aces came out in the 2011 range.
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Interesting about trying some different fins to see if the stability can be improved in choopy conditions. My last race I put in a futures "Kurt" fin in, hoping that it may do the same thing, imporve the stability. It was only the second time I had an opportunity to paddle the 25 in the ocean, the result was i fell amny times and could not get any power into my stoke at all. I am sure I can improve this with some practice. I also think the larger fin made it worse as quite often I fell catching a runner and the board seemed to track. Larger fins can cause lift so I am going back to the stock fin for a while.
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Scotty, finding the perfect fin for the ACE seems to be something of a conundrum. I also tried a real swept back, large area fin and it absolutely did not improve performance. It did provide some additional stability, but at the expense of noticeably increased drag, and making the board nearly impossible to turn on a runner. All the board wanted to do was run straight downwind; it very difficult to control it.
As the ACE is very difficult to turn compared to flat tailed boards (no matter what fin), I think it is important to have a fin that facilitates turning as much as possible, while adding some stability at the same time.
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Got to paddle the Ace with a Ninja fin this weekend. In flat water, it's pretty good, holds tracking better than the stock fin. I'm not sure if it adds any more stability than the stock fin, but it is definitely not as stable compared to the Gladiator Hybrid. Today, went out in open ocean conditions and faced some mild side winds, and disorganized open ocean swells. Into the wind and swells, while keeping the speed, the Ninja tracks well and had decent secondary stability, but once I slowed down, the tippiness is quite obvious. The light side winds pushed the Ace enough where I was stuck paddling on one side but with some powered strokes, I could turn direction. I would of rather had the Gladiator hybrid in the open ocean because the added stability would equal to more power strokes, less balance checks, and therefore faster paddling. So far, the Gladiator Hybrid downwinds well in small stuff and doesn't seem to affect speed or getting on bumps. Curious how the Gladiator Elite would perform on this board, especially in rough open ocean conditions.
In flat glassy conditions, I wouldn't use the Gladiator Hybrid, might use the stock fin.
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Takeo, thanks for your fin tests on the Ace. Looks like the Gladiator Hybrid is a good match. Let us know how you like the Gladiator Elite Racer if you get a chance to try it out.
Are you faster in flat water with the stock fin over the Gladiator Hybrid - even if you're having to change sides more?
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Takeo, thanks for your fin tests on the Ace. Looks like the Gladiator Hybrid is a good match. Let us know how you like the Gladiator Elite Racer if you get a chance to try it out.
Are you faster in flat water with the stock fin over the Gladiator Hybrid - even if you're having to change sides more?
I haven't had a chance to paddle the stock fin in flat water. I am guessing it would be but I know for sure, when I had the Hybrid on, paddling into moderate chop, it kept me tracking pretty straight but if a strong side wind blew me off course, took a bit to correct. With the Ninja, it's easier to correct, but doesn't track as well in the moderate stuff and was more tippy.
Being a newb to the 25 incher and since I often face less than ideal conditions and want to paddle open ocean, I think the Hybrid is the fin for me...unless the Gladiator Elite is better. I have a Becker Keel but I recall that on my 2012 Glide, I couldn't turn in surf and downwind, but it tracked straight forever, like 20 strokes a side! For a total straight paddle, I might consider it but open ocean paddling is never straight.
One thing I'd like to mention. Found a pin hole leak where the paint is removed on the bottom exposing the carbon. Starboard does that U shape on the bottom for looks, but I think they got over zealous in removing paint and sanded down to the carbon cloth, causing the pin hole leak. It's noticeably softer there too, not sure why they do it except for looks. It also gets really hot in the sun, had thoughts of painting over it for better protection. The brushed carbon gets really hot in Hawaii sun!
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1paddle2paddle, I am glad you found the same result, for a minuite I was womdering what was going on. So far I am convinced the stock fin is the best I have tried and a pretty good match for the ace shape.
Takeo, the brushed carbon has the paint sanded off to reduce overall weight. A fair bit of paint would be required to fully cover a board so there is kilos saved sanding the paint this way, you should try not to leave it in the sun. Be suprised if the pin hole allows water all the way into the styrofoam as there is a pvc skin in between, but if your not sure, dry it out and put some epoxy resin on it. Sure it hasnt taken a knock? Strange if its soft unless it has been soaking up water for a while??? With the layer of hard foam, this is pretty unusual???
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Scotty Mac,
Most of the conditions I face is chop to big open ocean swells, or at least that is what I'm trying to take the board out in. The Gladiator Hyrbid allows me to stay on the board when conditions get like that. I'll give the stock fin a try again after I get more time on the board, perhaps as my balancing gets better, I'll appreciate the stock fin more.
As for the sanded area, I am aware Starboard goes brushed to save weight, I was referring to the area where all the paint is removed, that horseshoe shape on the bottom of the board. Where I had the pinhole leak, I could see that it was sanded to the carbon cloth because there was those white spots where the ridges of the cloth were hit with sanding. I think during production, they were over zealous with the sanding. When I say it was soft, perhaps I should of been more specific. It's not soft as taking on water, just soft enough where I can flex it by pushing firmly with my finger and water would squirt out of the pinhole. I don't think it took on a lot as the board weighs the same. It seems that sanded area is probably the thinnest area on the board. The rails, deck, nose, tail are all very rigid, just that sanded area seems to be the softest.
Not a big concern, but thought I'd mention it for other Carbon Ace owners as a heads up. I put some solarez epoxy on it and it's good to go!
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I've owned the Ace for over 6 months and it continues to live up to it's hype. Took the board out this past Saturday and Sunday. On Saturday, I switched from the Gladiator Hybrid fin, to the Allison Becker Keel fin. The condtions were pretty brutal in the bay with disorganized chop coming from all angles. The Becker fin had great tracking, but stability was less compared to the Gladiator Hybrid. Switched out the fin for a Futures Large Cutaway, the green one and went out on Sunday. Headwind was strong and again, very disorgainized swells with white caps. As the Ace pounded through it, it was obvious that the large Futures fin slowed down the side to side roll. Turning around with the wind and swell, we did a short downwinder, and the Ace was very controllable, catching the smallest of bumps and still able to manuever through the mess. Still need more time in other conditions. As with any big fin, I'm guessing there may be more drag than a smaller fin but in really rough conditions, I'm definitely much faster on the board, doing less balance checks versus struggling with balance with a smaller fin. Cut my Wiki paddle to 8" overhead compared to 10" over, seems to work very well.
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Sharing the Ace Stoke!
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8104/8514447527_3fb604a263.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93701830@N08/8514447527/)
Surf Race 12'6" x 27.5" next to Ace 14'x25"
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8514448075_ecc2ba4275.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93701830@N08/8514447527/)
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/93701830@N08/8514448075/)
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Nice double rainbow shot.
My 2013 14x23.5" Ace should be here soon.
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Nice double rainbow shot.
My 2013 14x23.5" Ace should be here soon.
Thanks Argosi! The 25" is enough challenge for me in open ocean conditions. Please post a review with pics when you get it!
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Nice double rainbow shot.
My 2013 14x23.5" Ace should be here soon.
Thanks Argosi! The 25" is enough challenge for me in open ocean conditions. Please post a review with pics when you get it!
Even though I'm not racing anymore and reluctantly sold my Ace, I've been close to contacting the owner, friend and fellow paddler, for a quick ride. The Ace has no match.
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Another update on the Ace. Went for a paddle on Saturday and the conditions started out flat in the bay. The Ace was fast in the flats, but once outside the bay, there were slow rolling cross swells which slowed me down quite a bit. I was using the Future Large Cutaway but it just didn't feel like enough stability in those side swell conditions. My friends on 12', 14', and 17' Bullets pulled away. When we got back into the bay, a rain squal approached from behind and kicked up the wind. Stability was much better because swells were from behind. Did a short in the bay downwinder and the Ace was just as fast or maybe a bit faster than the Bullets. The Ace was connecting 3 or 4 runners and it was quite a blast although my legs are toast today from the balance issues. Still in search for a fin to slow down the tip a bit in rough open ocean, will probably borrow a Gladiator Elite but for now will put the Gladiator Hybrid back on.
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Still in search for a fin to slow down the tip a bit in rough open ocean, will probably borrow a Gladiator Elite but for now will put the Gladiator Hybrid back on.
Ninja?
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Still in search for a fin to slow down the tip a bit in rough open ocean, will probably borrow a Gladiator Elite but for now will put the Gladiator Hybrid back on.
Ninja?
Thanks Jean for the suggestion but if you read back in the thread, I already tried the Ninja. The Ninja will work in calm conditions on the Ace and probably in rough conditions on other, less tippy boards. In open ocean swells that are disorganized or come from the side, the Ace is too tippy for my 175 lb weight and skill. Maybe I'm spoiled because our SIC boards do so well in the open ocean.
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Did a light wind downwinder on the 2013 Ace 14 x 23.5 last weekend, it was 5 to 20 knots and we had all sorts of mushy 2 or 3 foot swell and some strong sidewinds. Fell off a few times needless to say but what a great board! It had the standard fin in, just plonked right in the middle.
Certainly less stable than the 2012 25" version but not by a crazy amount, pretty sure I would have fallen over during the 10 miles on my own board but maybe not as many times. But its fast and seems to be a little more tolerant of punching into the wave in front. At one stage we were hit with quite strong side on wind but the swells were still running the right direction, focussed on trimming on the swells into the wind and made up a lot of ground. The soft rails on the front half of the board let you point crazy high on the wave and not trip. I didn't really notice the changes to the deck when paddling, but in reality it wasn't the day to be trying fancy footwork!
It feels really light, noticeably lighter than my 2012 25". Looking forward to trying the 2013 14 x 25, guessing that would be a superb all round board. Feel the downwind mojo returning...been stuck in surfing mode the last few months :D
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Did a light wind downwinder on the 2013 Ace 14 x 23.5 last weekend, it was 5 to 20 knots and we had all sorts of mushy 2 or 3 foot swell and some strong sidewinds. Fell off a few times needless to say but what a great board! It had the standard fin in, just plonked right in the middle.
Certainly less stable than the 2012 25" version but not by a crazy amount, pretty sure I would have fallen over during the 10 miles on my own board but maybe not as many times. But its fast and seems to be a little more tolerant of punching into the wave in front. At one stage we were hit with quite strong side on wind but the swells were still running the right direction, focussed on trimming on the swells into the wind and made up a lot of ground. The soft rails on the front half of the board let you point crazy high on the wave and not trip. I didn't really notice the changes to the deck when paddling, but in reality it wasn't the day to be trying fancy footwork!
It feels really light, noticeably lighter than my 2012 25". Looking forward to trying the 2013 14 x 25, guessing that would be a superb all round board. Feel the downwind mojo returning...been stuck in surfing mode the last few months :D
Good to see you back JC! Not sure if I asked you before but what fin are you using on your Ace 14x25? Was it a dolphin shaped fin? What length? I love my Ace in light downwind, flats, small to moderate chop, into the wind, with the wind, but side swells and disorganized swells and chop still throw me in the drink.
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Still in search for a fin to slow down the tip a bit in rough open ocean, will probably borrow a Gladiator Elite but for now will put the Gladiator Hybrid back on.
Ninja?
Thanks Jean for the suggestion but if you read back in the thread, I already tried the Ninja. The Ninja will work in calm conditions on the Ace and probably in rough conditions on other, less tippy boards. In open ocean swells that are disorganized or come from the side, the Ace is too tippy for my 175 lb weight and skill. Maybe I'm spoiled because our SIC boards do so well in the open ocean.
Ah okay :)
I'm definitively not an expert on fins, for some reason I thought that the Ninja was supposed to provide more stability assistance than the Gladiators.
Have you seen this interview with the designer of the Ace talking about the M2M race boards?
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Good to see you back JC! Not sure if I asked you before but what fin are you using on your Ace 14x25? Was it a dolphin shaped fin? What length? I love my Ace in light downwind, flats, small to moderate chop, into the wind, with the wind, but side swells and disorganized swells and chop still throw me in the drink.
Thanks Takeo, almost ashamed to admit that I've just been using the stock fin! I tried the Jeremy Riggs/Larry Allison cut out fin on DJ's old style 14' Glide last week and really enjoyed it so I'm keen to try that and also the new smaller Gladiator on my Ace
Have to agree, that messy swell is tough on the Ace, I'm really curious to try the 2013 Ace 25 now, think it might have the speed and swell catching ability of the 2012 but slightly more stability if the 23.5" version is anything to go by. One of the local guys has one, so with any luck I'll get a chance to try it and report back, the 23.5 was an absolute blast but because racing isn't my focus at all think I prefer the extra stability of the 25.
On the same messy run I tried PT's All Star 14' x 26", very different to the old Race series boards, finer more piercing nose, very stable and really easy to coax onto the messy swells. So stable that I would go the 25 for sure, lovely board, very easy and enjoyable.
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Good to see you back JC! Not sure if I asked you before but what fin are you using on your Ace 14x25? Was it a dolphin shaped fin? What length? I love my Ace in light downwind, flats, small to moderate chop, into the wind, with the wind, but side swells and disorganized swells and chop still throw me in the drink.
Thanks Takeo, almost ashamed to admit that I've just been using the stock fin! I tried the Jeremy Riggs/Larry Allison cut out fin on DJ's old style 14' Glide last week and really enjoyed it so I'm keen to try that and also the new smaller Gladiator on my Ace
Have to agree, that messy swell is tough on the Ace, I'm really curious to try the 2013 Ace 25 now, think it might have the speed and swell catching ability of the 2012 but slightly more stability if the 23.5" version is anything to go by. One of the local guys has one, so with any luck I'll get a chance to try it and report back, the 23.5 was an absolute blast but because racing isn't my focus at all think I prefer the extra stability of the 25.
On the same messy run I tried PT's All Star 14' x 26", very different to the old Race series boards, finer more piercing nose, very stable and really easy to coax onto the messy swells. So stable that I would go the 25 for sure, lovely board, very easy and enjoyable.
Yes, great to see you here again Jonathan! I was wondering if we had lost you to surfski world. Sounds like you've been surfing instead.
Interesting to hear you tried the Ace 14x23.5 and the All Star 14x26 on the same downwind run. I've ordered the Ace 14x23.5 (supposed to be here soon) and I'm likely to also pick up a 14x25 All Star. I've been paddling a borrowed 14x25 Ace (2012 version) for the past little while but have yet to test any of the 2013 boards.
What are your thoughts on how the 14x23.5 Ace compares with the 14x26 All Star in downwind and other conditions? I assumed that the Ace would catch bumps better and glide better than the All Star while the All Star will be more stable and surfable in bigger conditions. It would be nice to hear from someone that's actually tried both boards back to back.
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Good to see you back JC! Not sure if I asked you before but what fin are you using on your Ace 14x25? Was it a dolphin shaped fin? What length? I love my Ace in light downwind, flats, small to moderate chop, into the wind, with the wind, but side swells and disorganized swells and chop still throw me in the drink.
Thanks Takeo, almost ashamed to admit that I've just been using the stock fin! I tried the Jeremy Riggs/Larry Allison cut out fin on DJ's old style 14' Glide last week and really enjoyed it so I'm keen to try that and also the new smaller Gladiator on my Ace
Have to agree, that messy swell is tough on the Ace, I'm really curious to try the 2013 Ace 25 now, think it might have the speed and swell catching ability of the 2012 but slightly more stability if the 23.5" version is anything to go by. One of the local guys has one, so with any luck I'll get a chance to try it and report back, the 23.5 was an absolute blast but because racing isn't my focus at all think I prefer the extra stability of the 25.
On the same messy run I tried PT's All Star 14' x 26", very different to the old Race series boards, finer more piercing nose, very stable and really easy to coax onto the messy swells. So stable that I would go the 25 for sure, lovely board, very easy and enjoyable.
Yes, great to see you here again Jonathan! I was wondering if we had lost you to surfski world. Sounds like you've been surfing instead.
Interesting to hear you tried the Ace 14x23.5 and the All Star 14x26 on the same downwind run. I've ordered the Ace 14x23.5 (supposed to be here soon) and I'm likely to also pick up a 14x25 All Star. I've been paddling a borrowed 14x25 Ace (2012 version) for the past little while but have yet to test any of the 2013 boards.
What are your thoughts on how the 14x23.5 Ace compares with the 14x26 All Star in downwind and other conditions? I assumed that the Ace would catch bumps better and glide better than the All Star while the All Star will be more stable and surfable in bigger conditions. It would be nice to hear from someone that's actually tried both boards back to back.
Thanks Argosi, Ace was definitely faster than the All Star for both PT and me, caught bumps more easily and certainly linked the bumps effortlessly. The conditions weren't big enough for the All Star to really shine, but I did find it more relaxing than the older Race version because it pierced the wave in front rather than slowing down, felt like it had a little less rocker than the model it replaced but very hard to tell. The All Star certainly felt faster than the Race on flat water, I remember the contrast between my Race and my Ace was quite startling with the Race feeling really sluggish on flat water in comparison. Of course the jump from 28 to 26" width would have made a difference there too. The thing that surprised me was how stable the All Star 26" felt, not really much less stable than the 28", again subjective because it's been a while since I paddled the 28".
So jumping from one to the other, stability or lack of, immediately noticeable when you got onto the narrow Ace, as I mentioned earlier the conditions were very messy.
The All Star caught the messy swell easily but just missed out on that almost magic ability of the Ace to link and catch waves that are hardly visible and seem to keep gliding through all sorts of side on interference and chop. It was a funny day for those two boards, too rough for the 23.5" Ace and too flat for the 26" All Star! Can't help thinking that either the 25" All Star or 25" Ace would have been better, Ace probably faster, All Star probably a little bit more fun. And in some ways that sums up the different characters of these two boards. If I was to sell the 2012 Ace and replace it I would really struggle to pick one over the other.
The Race 28" was outstanding in really big conditions, stable fast and secure, would love to try the All Star in comparable conditions. Hopefully PT can use the All Star tomorrow and report in, we have 35 to 40knot winds forecast - I can't make it unfortunately :(
I think it would be fantastic in the really big stuff.
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Good to see you back JC! Not sure if I asked you before but what fin are you using on your Ace 14x25? Was it a dolphin shaped fin? What length? I love my Ace in light downwind, flats, small to moderate chop, into the wind, with the wind, but side swells and disorganized swells and chop still throw me in the drink.
Thanks Takeo, almost ashamed to admit that I've just been using the stock fin! I tried the Jeremy Riggs/Larry Allison cut out fin on DJ's old style 14' Glide last week and really enjoyed it so I'm keen to try that and also the new smaller Gladiator on my Ace
Have to agree, that messy swell is tough on the Ace, I'm really curious to try the 2013 Ace 25 now, think it might have the speed and swell catching ability of the 2012 but slightly more stability if the 23.5" version is anything to go by. One of the local guys has one, so with any luck I'll get a chance to try it and report back, the 23.5 was an absolute blast but because racing isn't my focus at all think I prefer the extra stability of the 25.
On the same messy run I tried PT's All Star 14' x 26", very different to the old Race series boards, finer more piercing nose, very stable and really easy to coax onto the messy swells. So stable that I would go the 25 for sure, lovely board, very easy and enjoyable.
I'm glad to hear even you feel the Ace is challenging in the messy stuff! I fell a couple times this weekend and was very disappointed in myself. But once I hit the downwind, the Ace just took off and I was all smiles till shore! It's definitely a challenging board, not stable like the SIC boards which downwind really well, even is smaller stuff. I know the stock fin is too little stability for my size, skill, and water conditions. I"ll gladly give up some speed for stability. I hate getting back on that board, it's like a tippy kayak in rough water.
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Well I took the Kool Aid..bought a 2012 14x25 brushed carbon Ace. My thoughts so far on it.. Fricken love it! It makes our Pacific Northwest close frequency swells way more fun. The way it links runners is amazing. The beach we normally paddle is a very shallow area and we have to paddle upwind then down and keep repeating. The Ace actually makes the upwind enjoyable. Easily the most efficient upwind chop board I have tried. Once pointed downwind the speed is addicting. We have smaller swells so I can see why big conditions like Hawaii would be scary!
Flat conditions I am still trying to figure out. Feel like my 14x25 Ace Pro is quicker. Looking for fin and feet placement advise for flat water? I weigh 185lbs and tried being all the way forward, felt like it was pushing water big time. In fact did a local race and had people comment the wake I created was surf able lol. Currently using a Ninja fin on it.
Looking to hear what everyone runs as a flat water fin as well as foot placement for trim.
Thanks,
Corey
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Takeo,
I've just come back to this thread.
I gave up on the 25" for a while due to stability in the big stuff and went up to the 27", much more stable but way too much volume even for me (95kg) and it looses a lot of glide.
I've moved back to a 2012 25" and I'm running a 10" Naish surf fin, ugly as.. but its has two great qualities
1) Lots of side volume towards the tip of the fin. This gives me good stability and recovery
2) A vertical leading edge which give good turn. The laid back weed style fin don't give you a pivot point and upright fin does.
With this fin in I can let the board rip on the big stuff and mostly stay on. On the smaller waves I can actually get some control out of the rails.
I've been trying to find a fin to match this without the wide cross section but not having much luck
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Corlot, the feeling of pushing water on the Ace compared with something like the Ace Pro and its piercing bow is largely just a perception and something you can ignore. If you have access to a GPS, I think you'll be surprised that the Ace is in fact moving faster than the Ace Pro, even though you are seeing all that wake in front of you. What's happening is the board is simply displacing and releasing the water right there instead of at the tail. As Brian Szymanski, the designer says, a board has to release water somewhere, and the Ace proves that it is not important whether it be at the front or the back. So ignore what you're seeing in front of you. Sure the looking of a sharp bow cut through the water like a hot knife through butter gives you a sense that you are flying, whereas the bull nosed Ace looks like you're ploughing a field, but the truth is something else altogether.
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Thanks PT! I am going to GPS my foot placement this week. I am shocked on how much I enjoy this board. Side chop is still a struggle at this point, but it was with my 25 width Ace Pro as well :D
Been reading the posts that you and the crew have been sharing and it is a wealth of info.
I am sort of obsessed with this board right now. My brother and I took them out in slight wind days and were giggling like school girls.. may be the close to perfect one board quiver.
Ninja fin a good choice for flat and downwind?
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Thanks PT! I am going to GPS my foot placement this week. I am shocked on how much I enjoy this board. Side chop is still a struggle at this point, but it was with my 25 width Ace Pro as well :D
Been reading the posts that you and the crew have been sharing and it is a wealth of info.
I am sort of obsessed with this board right now. My brother and I took them out in slight wind days and were giggling like school girls.. may be the close to perfect one board quiver.
Ninja fin a good choice for flat and downwind?
Glad you're enjoying the Ace. It's my favorite board. Nothing goes downwind in light to moderate conditions like the Ace. As you noticed, it's also one of the best boards for going upwind. It's not as great in sidewind conditions as it can get a bit tippy. Just keep your paddle near the water on your recovery stroke ready to brace if need be.
Most people take some time to get used to the Ace but it looks like you got there right away.
I've had 3 versions of this board - the 2010 New (before they renamed it the Ace), the 2012 Ace, and just picked up my 2013 Ace on Friday. Still haven't got the 2013 board wet yet. I'm looking forward to seeing if the removal of the center hump will make the board easier to surf. I still have a hard time trying to surf the board from the tail on big bumps. I tend to just enjoy the ride from the tail rather than actively turning the board down the face of the wave. More practice I guess.
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I don't think I've ever tried my Ninja fin on the Ace. I only ever used it on a K15.
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Kaihoe,
Thanks for sharing your input on the Naish fin, looks like it would be good for stability. In flat water or into the wind or with directional swell, the Ace isn't too bad, but we get side wind, side chop, or just all out disorganized stuff and the Ace is very challenging in those conditions. When I first got the Ace, I was 165 lbs, I put 10 lbs back on and the balancing issues are more noticeable, plus my other boards are very stable. I'll see if I can find a fin like the Naish one. I don't know if Naish will sell the fin separately.
Corlot,
The Ninja seemed to work okay in flatwater. It's not as stable as the Gladiator Hybrid or the Futures XL, but plenty stable enough for flat water. For downwind, I would say it depends what kind of downwind you have. If your swells are not stacked up and a bit more disorganized where you need stability, the Ninja may not be enough, unless you are very light and stability is not an issue for you on the Ace. The stock fin also works okay for flatwater, but there is more yaw than with the Ninja.
I wonder if the Ace would be a good candidate for twin fins. I still wonder how the twin fin will downwind. People keep saying the twins add stability, wonder if that would be true for the Ace design.
The Ace is such a fun board, but when it's too windy or too rough, it sucks having to paddle on my knees. I'd love to have a bit more stability without having to sacrifice too much speed. When I'm falling, I'm really slow, haha!
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Here's another Ace update. Had my 14x25 carbon for about a year now. I went months without having paddled the Ace, gained some weight, so transitioning back on the Ace was challenging in open ocean conditions. I am borrowing a Gladiator Elite fin from a friend which seems to slow down the tippiness. Took the board out in open ocean and although at times I'll do balance checks and use the paddle as a crutch, no falls so the fin seems to be working. I've tried quite a few fins and this seems to make it the most stable.
With that said, the drawback may be some increased drag, especially when in flat water conditions. I paddle in a bay which at times is flat along a breakwall, but once outside the wall, it can get pretty rough with large ocean swells.
What I love about the Ace is that although it's 30 lbs, it doesn't feel that heavy on the water. With my bigger boards, toward the end of a 6 mile sprint, it's a grind to keep the board moving. With the Ace, I am much less fatigue. Less effort to keep moving equates to quicker lap times and less fatique overall.
The Ace continues to impress me with how well it paddles into the wind, in surface chop, and of course catching swells. When others fail to get on a tiny bump, the Ace picks it up and keeps going, it's pretty amazing. When the wind is blowing and others start slowing down, I can keep going with ease. My friends think it's me, but I know it's the board, it's magic! Falling in love with the Ace again.
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I just jumped on the ACE crazy train a few weeks ago picked up a used carbon 14 X25. What a fun board to paddle. I have taken it on a few down wind runs and still trying to figure that out. The light wind stuff was fun, had it out when it was in the 20s that was fun but a hand full. I am using the stock fin seems ok but very interested in getting a fin that helps in the DW stuff.
Thanks
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I just jumped on the ACE crazy train a few weeks ago picked up a used carbon 14 X25. What a fun board to paddle. I have taken it on a few down wind runs and still trying to figure that out. The light wind stuff was fun, had it out when it was in the 20s that was fun but a hand full. I am using the stock fin seems ok but very interested in getting a fin that helps in the DW stuff.
Thanks
What's your height and weight? I'm around 170 lbs now and the Ace seem manageable. I think a few other members are using the stock fin for downwind. The bigger fins help with stability but probably at the expense of increased drag and less manueverablility.
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Hey
Takeo I'm about 200 lb 5'6, haven't been out on the board lately and pay ed the price for that today, took it on a 4 mile down winder today in 20-25 knots. Well it was fun and lot of work, did some swimming. Kept trying to figure out the best foot placement in catching the bump, on the big drops I would move back to keep the nose up but It seems to get hard to handle if I'm to far back when paddling and the wave rolls under. It is crazy when you get it right and it takes off into the runner it just fly's and lets you link into more waves. I hope more time on the board i get it figured out.
Thanks for all the Info
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Hey
Takeo I'm about 200 lb 5'6, haven't been out on the board lately and pay ed the price for that today, took it on a 4 mile down winder today in 20-25 knots. Well it was fun and lot of work, did some swimming. Kept trying to figure out the best foot placement in catching the bump, on the big drops I would move back to keep the nose up but It seems to get hard to handle if I'm to far back when paddling and the wave rolls under. It is crazy when you get it right and it takes off into the runner it just fly's and lets you link into more waves. I hope more time on the board i get it figured out.
Thanks for all the Info
200 lbs and downwinding with the Ace, good for you! I won't make anymore excuses about gaining weight and the board getting tippy. At 170-175lbs, My toes usually cover the rear drain hole, if there are small swells and I see the nose boofing, I step back a bit further, boofing slows the board down. The couple times I downwinded with the Ace, a big step back was enough to keep the nose from boofing. I surfed the Ace a few times, when that nose plows, you go flying, haha! My friend who paddles with me on his Jaime Mitchell 14' or Starboard 12'6" race said once he sees the Ace tail lift, he knows I'm gone.