Newbie here. Have been trying to learn how to sup surf. Have surfed most of my life. Now in my 50s and with a plate in my neck (fused vertebrates), have neck stiffness after multiple days of prone paddling surfing, decided that stand up is my best long term option to maintain my passion for water sports.
this forum has been a huge wealth of tips. One area that i still struggle with is turning the board around for incoming waves. Sometimes i end up over turning or under turning the board. Either way, i miss the wave. Just wondering if there were any tips or suggestions.
Thanks in advance.
Practice practice practice. On flat water step to the tail stomp, spin, and splash. After a while it will get better. Guys who come from a windsurfing background are amazing to study!
I'll add that your board can be a factor as well. I had a heavily rockered board that, when I would start paddling, would over rotate, beyond where I wanted the board to be. Even though I knew it was likely to happen, it was hard to compensate for (at my novice skill level). So I got rid of the board. 8).
When I switched down to a smaller surf SUP board, my pivot turns were less consistent and i was missing waves. Now I turn earlier and more slowly so I don't fall off but I'm less consistent with my direction to the wave, I found the J stroke has become really important to keeping my tiny 8' surf SUP straight for the oncoming wave.
I recently saw a video about the J stroke in relation to catching waves specifically but I can't find it now. I think it was a group out of Nosara, CR that had put it together. But here is Robert with a good video, he's on flat water, but the technique is there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBURA5HvTOM
Length determines how quickly you can spin around. On my short board I will lineup closer inside. I can wait till the last moment to decide weather I want this one or not. On my shortest board, I'll paddle it around in the lineup with my right foot back in a modified surf stance. All I have to do to turn is shift my weight more to the back foot. This causes the tail to sink. I'll take a strong turning paddle stroke and my board will pivot right in place. Then continue paddling on that side into the wave. My short board has no glide, so these are relatively steep and deep take-offs.
With a 10' to 11' boards, it's a little harder to stick the tail if you haven't practiced it a lot. I still shift my weight back and do the strong turning stroke, but it's not going to pivot in place. The weight back will just float the nose so your board turns like a shorter board arc. The longer boards will glide, so you pick your wave sooner and start turning to catch it while the waves still outside a bit. You may even turn early then start taking some strokes to build up some speed before the wave catches you.
With an even longer board like my 14' touring / race board, the turn is even more drawn out. I can pick a wave way outside to try to catch, which gives me plenty of time to get the board turned around. Because of the length of the board, I can catch it way outside and just keep paddling until I can feel the wave pulling it.
During lulls I'd practice doing pivot turns and figure 8s. Also work on paddling into waves turing either left or right.
Lots of good advice so far for you fatfish! TallDude is spot on regarding technique with various length and style of boards. One thing I will add is that when you are starting out the board will feel like it has a mind of it's own when you turn for a wave - we've all been through it and it's particularly harrowing when it's crowded. You'll learn to control it with your stroke and weight shift over time.
I short boarded my whole life pre-SUP so for me it's more natural to turn late and go with just a couple strokes. Some guys are more comfortable making long paddles from the outside.
As has been mentioned, practice turning whenever you can.
thanks guys, great suggestions. I am on a 8'10 Naish Mana so not too long. Probably not a good one to start off on but like digger i rode and still ride shorter boards (love fishes). I think the weighting advice is what i am doing wrong. I am in a staggered stance but then weight my front foot as i am trying to turn around. I think this is where i am going wrong. Also the video above pointed out a lot of simple things to do (ie paddle angle) that i never thought of.
Will try this out, hopefully later today if i can get out of work reasonable time.
Welcome to the addiction fatfish!
Quote from: fatfish on May 29, 2018, 03:20:36 PM
Will try this out, hopefully later today if i can get out of work reasonable time.
Where do you typically surf? What kind of waves?
I mostly surf around san clemente, Doho, Sano, Trails. soft waves.
Quote from: fatfish on May 29, 2018, 06:11:06 PM
I mostly surf around san clemente, Doho, Sano, Trails. soft waves.
Well that's really cool..hit me up the next time you're heading down to Sano, and I'll meet you there (if I haven't met you already). :)
I think you will get much better advice then from me and the advice already given is spot on particularly just time on the water. I started out new at 50 with no surfing experience and struggled mightly turning into waves particularly with wind. Before I even starting understand anything about fins, I started playing with size and placement and was amazed how little adjustments gave me much greater control turning into a wave. There probably is no science behind it and maybe it was psychological but it helped me. Adding a nubster to my quad and going from a thruster to a 2 + 1 gave me a much greater level of control. Also moving the 1 all the way back and going bigger also really helped. I now actually use my fins to surf and understand how they work (I think), but I initially just adjusted them for control. Once my wave count went up, the micro adjustments with foot placement just fell into place. Now it may be a couple of quick strokes or stepping all the way back on the tail...what ever is needed. One last thought, I always turn into a wave to my right. I just never figured it out to my left.
I also find that turning to take a wave is much easier when the water is not choppy or bumpy. We currently have the typical lumpy and choppy spring conditions here in SoCal, and that make turning around more challenging. Seems like your balance (at least mine) is more vulnerable when you are trying to turn for a wave. That's when most of my falls happen.
Welcome to the club fatfish. All the tips are here above and slowly over time it'll all come together.
That said, if I'm on a low volume board, and lumpy as Zoo says, it still is the last remaining kook move I can suffer from. Probably the trickiest tool in our work box. Especially enjoyable on a cracking and charged day in front of the whole crew on a set wave.
All good tips, I would add that if you time it right, you could pivot off the peak of one of the earlier waves in a set or even on the crest of chop. But until you get to that point of lifting your nose and pivoting off the tail, the smoothest and fastest way to turn is the simple back stroke.
Face the predominant swell direction, pick your wave, in your normal centered stance, back paddle 2-3 strokes on the side that you will eventually be riding the wave. This will not bring you all the way around. As your board spins, switch sides and begin paddling forward into the wave. It helps to bend at the knees in a more athletic stance and use a shorter paddle (if you already haven't done so).
This is my favorite way to turn...
https://youtu.be/uxrpCODi1TM?t=2m24s
Every board turns differently, even those that are supposed to be identical. And when you're trying to go for a wave, your mental processes and capabilities are not at their finest--too much going on. As soon as you paddle out to a spot practice turning. Go out past the lineup and do ten or fifteen practice turns. I do that almost every time, and I've been SUP surfing for more than ten years. Gets the cobwebs out and makes your turn more of an automatic thing than something you need to think about.
And every day is different, even in a spot you've surfed a thousand times. A little change in the swell angle and the position that got you into every wave with two strokes the day before is now leaving you flailing. Figure it out. You need to finish the turn aimed the way you want with your paddle on your strong side.
I like shortboard-style, quick turn late drops, it's stupid, but it pumps the adrenaline and saves energy. And it keeps the kooks who might be considering a drop in guessing. "Oh, shit, he made it, and he's coming down the line like an out of control cement truck." Good reputation to have.
Quote from: PonoBill on May 30, 2018, 09:01:36 AM
I like shortboard-style, quick turn late drops, it's stupid, but it pumps the adrenaline and saves energy. And it keeps the kooks who might be considering a drop in guessing. "Oh, shit, he made it, and he's coming down the line like an out of control cement truck." Good reputation to have.
Late drops on your tip toes are the best ;D
I usually step back onto the tail, fall in the water, and turn the board around by hand before climbing back on. Presto! :o
I don't turn around (180 degrees) to catch a wave. I have my board parallel to the oncoming swell, not facing it. When I see the wave I want coming I take 2 or 3 sweep strokes to time a 90 degree (not 180 like if you were facing out) turn so that I am now in position to take off just as the wave reaches me.
A simple pivot. Push paddle off nose the direction you want to pivot. Switch hands with paddle and pull board
around with reverse strokes from stern. Then switch hands with paddle and complete the turn by pushing off nose.
Feet can stay put.
May not be stylish but better than falling off and getting back on.
Quote from: TallDude on May 30, 2018, 09:07:19 AM
Late drops on your tip toes are the best ;D
Quote from: SCruzSUPr on May 30, 2018, 12:10:33 PM
I usually step back onto the tail, fall in the water, and turn the board around by hand before climbing back on. Presto! :o
props
Switch feet into surf stance, place paddle on the opposite side of the direction you want to go, and when you want to turn for the wave, step your rear foot back to sink the tail some (a la Danny Ching video just not as exaggerated), and start paddling...and away you go!
Also, similar to what addapost does....
Quote from: addapost on May 30, 2018, 01:47:59 PM
I don't turn around (180 degrees) to catch a wave. I have my board parallel to the oncoming swell, not facing it.
...since I'm usually on shorter boards that yaw quickly and I only get two (maybe three) paddle strokes before I've gotta to change sides, I will paddle parallel to the incoming wave, and then at the last minute do the above.
Or depending on the situation, I'll at times even use the wave to turn me into it if conditions are big, and I don't want to be heading straight down the face immediately, but rather start off sideways across it. So I'll time my first strong paddle stroke into the wave from the parallel paddling just as I feel myself start to get lifted by the incoming wave. Not something I'd recommend starting right off doing in big conditions, but you can practice it on smaller ones, and see how that feels as well, and go from there.
Let me know when you're heading to Sano or Doho again, and I'd be more than happen you show you a couple different methods.
Thank everyone for all the suggestions. I am going to try them out. A lot of good ideas to try out and practice.
Quote from: ponobillAnd when you're trying to go for a wave, your mental processes and capabilities are not at their finest--too much going on.
this was funny as this is usually me, too much going on in my head trying to get feet positioned, get the board turned around, get balanced, get paddling then wave passes me by or i fall.
Quote from: SanoSupLet me know when you're heading to Sano or Doho again, and I'd be more than happen you show you a couple different methods.
Appreciate the offer, i will probably be at Baby Beach tomorrow, taking my son to the DP Outrigger practice. will probably bring my board to practice around the harbor. If you see an old asian guy on a yellow naish, come say hi.
Hi FFish
Welcome, and thanks for giving us something to do ;D
I can "pivot turn" but I never do.... I watched a friend do it Sunday, fluid and beautiful.
Mine don't work out as well as his :)
I simply face out to sea.... keeping my face on the shadow side ( lips don't like sun)
in other words, it doesn't matter exactly where I am facing, as long as it is out to sea.
When I see the wave I want, I simply paddle on the left side only (my strong side)
I time my turn to complete right where I want to take off.
Then I give a few hard digs on the left and drop in.
This can be done in a very short space... or a longer one if you need to draw it out.
Going right, I'll switch the paddle after I catch the wave (pic)
I slow or speed my stroke, to be in the right spot for takeoff
Being a surfer, you already understand the timing for takeoff.
I catch almost every wave of my life this way.
It works for me and eliminates the awkward "paddle switch" just as the wave reaches you (and you miss the wave)
Diagram followed by pics from my last session in Thailand on Sunday
Quote from: supthecreek on May 31, 2018, 11:09:40 AM
When I see the wave I want, I simply paddle on the left side only (my strong side)
I time my turn to complete right where I want to take off.
Then I give a few hard digs on the left and drop in.
What is interesting Creek is that I am regular footed too but my right side is way stronger than my left and I can make aggressive drops from the right side but am much less successful when paddling on my left. Have been working on it though...
i am reg footed but paddle switch for lefts and reg for rights--paddle left side for lefts and right side for rights
with lefts as i make drop i switch back to reg stance--sometimes a stay switch for a bit, then switch to reg
dont try this yet tho
one piece of advice--just as you start the drop take another quick couple of strokes as you try to get across the face--works a charm to keep you moving and turns you out onto the face---where a straight drop to a bottom turn might leave you velnerable to closeout
steep acute wave?--those bets are off--gotta drop and get speed off bottom or no go
Just wanted to round out this thread with some tactics that i have implemented.
First off had the pleasure of meeting Sanosup and got some 1:1 coaching in the water. His recommendations and others i received here have markedly made a difference in my turning for the incoming wave but also my level of confidence. For other newbies that may struggle, just wanted to summarize a few things that I did:
- Per SanoSup: Switch feet into surf stance, place paddle on the opposite side of the direction you want to go, and when you want to turn for the wave, step your rear foot back to sink the tail some (a la Danny Ching video just not as exaggerated), and start paddling...and away you go!
- Changed the paddle face angle to pull away from me as opposed towards me. this begins the rotation. The video above explained this.
- Paddle length. I have been wondering why my lower back was always sore. After looking at Creek's pictures noticed that he wasnt hunched over when he was turning or pivoting towards the wave. I extended my paddle 4 or 5 inches and it seemed to help my rotation towards the incoming wave but also my back wasnt sore.
- Feet positioning. Dont put feet close to the rails. Re positioned my feet comfortably around the stringer and that resolved the wobbliness, which was also probably making my back work harder.
Some what seems to be so obvious tactics made a huge difference. Look forward to getting out again, just gotta make time with this work thing.
Quote from: 805StandUp on May 31, 2018, 11:32:54 AM
Quote from: supthecreek on May 31, 2018, 11:09:40 AM
When I see the wave I want, I simply paddle on the left side only (my strong side)
I time my turn to complete right where I want to take off.
Then I give a few hard digs on the left and drop in.
What is interesting Creek is that I am regular footed too but my right side is way stronger than my left and I can make aggressive drops from the right side but am much less successful when paddling on my left. Have been working on it though...
I fail miserably when I try to paddle on my heel-side like Creek does. I almost always paddle on the toe-side. But a goal of mine is to get better on the heel-side. In some setups (wind, wave direction, crowd placement) it would be totally helpful to have that option.
Quote from: SCruzSUPr on May 30, 2018, 12:10:33 PM
I usually step back onto the tail, fall in the water, and turn the board around by hand before climbing back on. Presto! :o
This works every time! You can't say that about all those other fancy techniques.
SA--same prob me--that's why i switch stance when i want to paddle on my weak side--ive gotten it so i will do it on all but biggest waves
and it's fun to catch a left in switch stance (goofy in my case--puts me frontside on a left), stay with it a while, then surprise people by switching back to reg stance (backside) and, hopefully, then ripping a turn or two
try it youll like it--it'll feel weird the first few times, but works nicely after a bit
Quote from: eastbound on June 08, 2018, 10:43:48 AM
SA--same prob me--that's why i switch stance when i want to paddle on my weak side--ive gotten it so i will do it on all but biggest waves
and it's fun to catch a left in switch stance (goofy in my case--puts me frontside on a left), stay with it a while, then surprise people by switching back to reg stance (backside) and, hopefully, then ripping a turn or two
try it youll like it--it'll feel weird the first few times, but works nicely after a bit
Thanks Eastbound
Great Idea! Will try this next time out. I was able to catch a couple of waves paddling on the heal side today when catching a wave breaking left. It set my paddle up on the correct side for back side ride. I like the idea however of starting out
Goofy foot at the same time.
Cheers
Bob
I take off backside or frontside, I prefer frontside because I can see the wave, but if I am already angled toward the backside I go with it.
The only thing I didn't see covered in this thread is learning how to paddle in a straight line from one side only. Learning this helps a lot. I used to always get to where I was just catching a wave, and had to switch hands to stay straight and would drop off the back. Once I learned to paddle straight from one side only that was cured and timing was less of an issue.
This helps a lot if you turn too early, and want to keep your angle. I.e. you are turning by paddling on your toe side, and you have that sweet angle to make the drop for a right hander, but haven't caught the wave. Reach out and make short strokes at like a 30 degree angle (if your board from tail to nose was south to north- paddle at 30 degrees NNE). This angled stroke moves you ahead and keeps you from over turning. I'm pretty sure its called a bow-draw stroke. There are lots of Youtubes about it.
That kind of stroke is easy in surf stance, frontside. Backside it is harder if you are in surf stance.
Regarding paddling straight, there is a Blue Planet Video earlier in this thread that shows exactly what you are describing. I started to do that too and helped tremendously.
Quote from: addapost on May 30, 2018, 01:47:59 PM
I don't turn around (180 degrees) to catch a wave. I have my board parallel to the oncoming swell, not facing it. When I see the wave I want coming I take 2 or 3 sweep strokes to time a 90 degree (not 180 like if you were facing out) turn so that I am now in position to take off just as the wave reaches me.
This is spot on advice. Pivot turns are fun and useful, but not always needed. Especially when it's choppy or you are learning. Another thing I would add is that the full 90 degree turn is not needed. As you paddle stroke three times to catch a wave, the board is going to continue to turn. So really start your wave catch 30 degrees short of the 90.
JP
Quote from: eastbound on June 08, 2018, 10:43:48 AM
SA--same prob me--that's why i switch stance when i want to paddle on my weak side--ive gotten it so i will do it on all but biggest waves
and it's fun to catch a left in switch stance (goofy in my case--puts me frontside on a left), stay with it a while, then surprise people by switching back to reg stance (backside) and, hopefully, then ripping a turn or two
try it youll like it--it'll feel weird the first few times, but works nicely after a bit
I do this same thing about 50% of the time eastie- Especially BC im goofy and in Nj where I am its all rights. If I really have to dig on a paddle i end up flopping stances. Ive blown it a few fimes and even done some solid regular foot bottom turns.
Also, keep in mind that the further away from your board you place your paddle blade, the greater effect on the turn.
To get a good feel for this and the pivot turn, try sitting on the tail of your board. Let the nose come up a few inches and take a wide stroke, you will be spinning effortlessly.
ha jersey!--havent really explored bottom turns goofy (switch side) but sometimes i find myself in the pocket goofy and stay with it for a bit, then switch and do some turns--but i cant get back anywhere near the stomp on switch side--i have good vids of CR, where this can be seen-but havent taken the time to learn how to post--and on those big waves i switch to reg foot immediately as the drop begins--no effing around--two days i was there it was doh and, after very tough paddleouts, it was clear i did not have another in me--surfed carefully as getting caught inside meant session over! massive fun
Found that j-stroke video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWpMbf5tH7s
90 percent of turning is all in your head. Or maybe all of turning is 90 percent in your head. Either way, if you're having trouble turning into a wave, calm down. That's it.
If you weren't in a wave you could do it perfectly. But when your noggin is yelling "the wave is coming the wave is coming, turn, turn!!!" you just can't do it well. Time in the water solves the problem, but only because it chills you out some. If you want to improve quicker, take your time, breathe, do what you need to do. I have more trouble with head high waves than double OH, because I know I need to calm down for bigger stuff, or else.
Adding my occasional .
It's a sublety, but really helps on a pivot:
Sink the tail deep, and use the rebound floatation to drive the board forward
There are alot of good proners who push their short boards backwards and deep, just prior to takeoff....the bouyancy pushback pops them up for a perfect one or two stroke takeoff.
So if you can get a tight pivot tun by sinking the tail....you can time a power paddle stroke to complete rotation just when that tail tail will want to lift up/out.
It means that you have to be willing to sink the tail deep enough that you will fall if you dont power stroke, but per some of the other posts...lake practice is great for that
good tip and i will try, and in fact used to do that very thing back in my prone days
Quote from: outcast on July 31, 2018, 08:31:29 AM
Sink the tail deep, and use the rebound floatation to drive the board forward
There are alot of good proners who push their short boards backwards and deep, just prior to takeoff....the bouyancy pushback pops them up for a perfect one or two stroke takeoff.
So if you can get a tight pivot tun by sinking the tail....you can time a power paddle stroke to complete rotation just when that tail tail will want to lift up/out.
It means that you have to be willing to sink the tail deep enough that you will fall if you dont power stroke, but per some of the other posts...lake practice is great for that
helped a lot!!