Yesterday we had probably the best conditions of the whole year. Not the strongest wind of the year which happened in January, but strong enough, and blue skies, and warm for this time of the year. Made for one epic day downwinding. Several guys did the run (10km / 6.4kms) twice, it was that good. Hope the video below captures the essence of the run and the awesome conditions. It was that windy, that the GoPro Hero 5 did not record any sound..
https://youtu.be/8CPrkRyubbo
Sail Systems 3rd Person Mount + GoPro Hero 5 Black
Great Stuff OS! you sure do get your fair share of fun out there in HK.
Another excellent video. If there is one thing I've definitely learned from watching your videos, after watching you fall and get back on your board, dugout style DW boards are not for me. I know I would prefer a DW board with a flat deck.
As always, thanks for sharing your video.
Quote from: burchas on December 28, 2016, 07:09:10 AM
Great Stuff OS! you sure do get your fair share of fun out there in HK.
Burchas. We have been unusually lucky with conditions recently, especially since it has been warmer than usual. On this particular day, I was supposed to be out of town but due to severe weather at my destination, my flight was postponed for 3 days.. Sometimes clouds do have silver linings. The delay meant I got to do this downwinder with our crew. Having watched the weather charts, Windguru and the local weather forecasts for days beforehand I had thought I was going to miss it.
Quote from: Night Wing on December 28, 2016, 10:04:10 AM
Another excellent video. If there is one thing I've definitely learned from watching your videos, after watching you fall and get back on your board, dugout style DW boards are not for me. I know I would prefer a DW board with a flat deck.
Nightwing. The 3rd person mount does give quite a good view of falling off and getting back on the board. Actually I've found an interesting way to get back into the dugout. If I fall as I did in this one at 3:27 off the left hand side, I grab the center handle with my left hand and this drags the board perpendicular to the wind. Then by hooking my right arm over the downwind side of the board and pulling the board so it is on its side and the upwind rail is under the water, it is rather like waterstarting on a windsurfer. With the wind this strong and the board on its side perpendicular to the wind, the wind on the board almost drags you back onboard.. Or at least the effort is much less.
Quote from: Off-Shore on December 30, 2016, 12:26:45 AM
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I've found an interesting way to get back into the dugout. If I fall as I did in this one at 3:27 off the left hand side, I grab the center handle with my left hand and this drags the board perpendicular to the wind. Then by hooking my right arm over the downwind side of the board and pulling the board so it is on its side and the upwind rail is under the water, it is rather like waterstarting on a windsurfer. With the wind this strong and the board on its side perpendicular to the wind, the wind on the board almost drags you back onboard.. Or at least the effort is much less.
sounds horrible!
I can see the logic in flatwater and wind but with waves... way too random. By the time you're in I imagine the next wave knocking you over. On a windsurfer you're up and away.
I never was never very attracted to these dugouts. Frankly, the more I hear about them the less attracted I get.
Thanks.
Cool video!
Quote from: yugi on December 30, 2016, 03:43:47 AM
Quote from: Off-Shore on December 30, 2016, 12:26:45 AM
...
I've found an interesting way to get back into the dugout. If I fall as I did in this one at 3:27 off the left hand side, I grab the center handle with my left hand and this drags the board perpendicular to the wind. Then by hooking my right arm over the downwind side of the board and pulling the board so it is on its side and the upwind rail is under the water, it is rather like waterstarting on a windsurfer. With the wind this strong and the board on its side perpendicular to the wind, the wind on the board almost drags you back onboard.. Or at least the effort is much less.
sounds horrible!
I can see the logic in flatwater and wind but with waves... way too random. By the time you're in I imagine the next wave knocking you over. On a windsurfer you're up and away.
I never was never very attracted to these dugouts. Frankly, the more I hear about them the less attracted I get.
Thanks.
Dugouts are for going fast and challenging yourself. They aren't for enjoyment. There is a certain thrill from the sense of being on the edge of control that you get with an Ace - you are always slightly at the mercy of this runaway thing. And the sheer consistent average speed and ease of getting into bumps is nice, especially if you are a competitive type. But unless you are truly supremely fit and gifted, you'll miss the sense of control and "surfability" of a rockered planing board, and your chances of dinging yourself or your board, or just getting so knackered that getting in your knees is all you can do, increase about tenfold. Loved most by intensely competitive masochists IMO. Mind you, my Ace is 25" wide and our winds are strong, so maybe the 27" wide one under 28 knots or so would be pretty comfortable. Dunno.
Quote from: Area 10 on December 30, 2016, 06:25:50 AM
Dugouts are for going fast and challenging yourself. They aren't for enjoyment. There is a certain thrill from the sense of being on the edge of control that you get with an Ace - you are always slightly at the mercy of this runaway thing. And the sheer consistent average speed and ease of getting into bumps is nice, especially if you are a competitive type. But unless you are truly supremely fit and gifted, you'll miss the sense of control and "surfability" of a rockered planing board, and your chances of dinging yourself or your board, or just getting so knackered that getting in your knees is all you can do, increase about tenfold. Loved most by intensely competitive masochists IMO. Mind you, my Ace is 25" wide and our winds are strong, so maybe the 27" wide one under 28 knots or so would be pretty comfortable. Dunno.
Area, you have nailed the experience on the ACE here nicely, and it dovetails into what dk78 was saying in the Jimmy Lewis Rail Downwind thread about getting a high overall speed on a downwind run, it is not the speed in the glides that is most important but the speed between them that matters. This is where the Ace excels, but then as the wind increases past 25 knots the board becomes squirley, and you get a feeling on it of being barely in control. To ride this properly at these wind speeds you need as you say to be supremely fit and gifted. The difference with the 27" wide one is that it is stable enough to never feel uncomfortable paddling flat out (between glides). So for me I definitely think sub 25 knot I prefer the 27" wide Ace dugout style, and particularly in the 15-20 knot range. Above 25 knots then the SIC Bullet 14s or F16 or Bullet 17s are what I now realize are more fun and controllable to ride.
I also have the 2016 All Star 14 x 27" but have not yet downwinded this properly (as it lives in the UK), but it feels like it would be more comfortable than the Ace in 25 knot+ winds
Standing back on the Ace rounded tail is a very tippy experience. But if you can do this - that board will go at a very high average speed DW. Not many have that good balance on the scale of Clement or Connor. Since that pretty much defines the limit for that board to the average joe in higher winds and steeper faced waves.
My fat Touring pintail already is hard enough to stand further and further back. But I force myself to do it for buoy turns and cutting down across wave faces. It becomes pretty much a necessity to learn as the balance point DW in steep waves is extremely small if you do not control the sharp displacement nose from pearling and twisting just like in the vid. In that way the Touring is less forgiving vs the big Ace boof. I have found that it is best to slow the board down to the speed of the wave so you surf along vs pearl into the wave ahead. That board was never designed to DW much.
Whereas full on DW ski jump SIC and JL downwind surf nose boards allow you to launch off those same steep waves. For me -> definitely the more rocker the better for steep drops. And this is easiest for me with the M14. But really good video showing exactly what a pearl twist and dump look like for those that do not DW. That was really excellent.
Thanks Eagle. I included those 2 falls and the pearl save to show that I am no master of the dugout beast yet.. ;) I'd be interested to know at 5:40 in the vid if you would hold back or if you would go left or right? I definitely would have made this on my SIC Bullet 14 or F16 as I would have been able to steer the board right. But somehow on the Ace I could not. Maybe I just was not far back enough to footsteer the board as I just went barrelling down the face and right into the back of the wave in front which launched me off the board.
Hi OS - at 5:40 I would have allowed the wave to give me a nice little push and then gunned it full power taking a step back in the process to keep the nose from pearling. Hoping that was enough to get the bottom to unstick and plane.
But with your Ace it is a different animal than my boards so cannot be certain how that board reacts on a wave like that. On my Touring pin it has a fairly wide double concave that unsticks quite easily at speed. So would definitely step back to keep from pearling. Or if the drop was too steep would drag my blade and surf that wave to the right. My guess is that if you stepped back enough you would have kept the nose from diving. Your feet looked stationary. The pin on the Touring does dig in nicely and you can control that board across a wave pretty good. But you must get weight back over the fin. Ok gotta go to a pub dance and party now. Happy New Year OS and all Zoners!!
Just took another look at the screenshots of your vid. At 5:40 and 5:42 would be thinking to move back 6-12". At 5:44 and 5:46 would be back 12-18" depending on the drop. Then would try to weight the tail - hang on and drop down if it still started to pearl. Your Ace pearl does get exaggerated because the birdbath fills up and lowers the COG with the huge weight of the water filling it up.
The Touring pin does not have this problem. The Ace is a very difficult board to ride for the average joe once the drops get big and steep. It has a lot more roll than the average surf nosed board. Today on my M14 - could have even used more rocker -> the waves were so steep. That is why my preference is for surf nosed boards when it gets festive. Less pearling and more control. Excellent vid though for sure. Many DW noobs can learn a lot from that vid.
Eagle, thanks for your tips and screenshots. It is amazing how much the dugout fills up.. I can absolutely see that my legs did not move much and the right thing would be to step back as you say and head right. Something I have done many times on my Bullet but need to summon up the courage to do on the Ace. This is a manoeuver that I practice a lot in the flat and in downbreezer conditions both goofy and regular foot, but have not practiced much on the Ace, and clearly need to. But as you say when things get festive, the surf-nosed boards will be my preference too.
It looked pretty obvious you were going to catch that one, Offshoot.
I have noticed that Olivia Piana (beaten in the Worlds by Penelope Strickland Armstrong on an Ace in the tech race), who usually has always been on an AllStar is now out on her Ace.
Check this recent vid out
https://vimeo.com/193748424#t=40s
Quote from: yugi on January 02, 2017, 05:38:17 AM
It looked pretty obvious you were going to catch that one, Offshoot.
I have noticed that Olivia Piana (beaten in the Worlds by Penelope Strickland Armstrong on an Ace in the tech race), who usually has always been on an AllStar is now out on her Ace.
Check this recent vid out
https://vimeo.com/193748424#t=40s
Yeah, but even someone as expert as Piano still doesn't look 100% relaxed on the Ace, underlining how tricky it is to downwind. As someone who has fallen off the Ace more times than I can remember, I am familiar with the half-crouch-as-if-I'm-about-to-take-a-standing-dump-with-feet-welded-to-the-spot downwind style that the Ace encourages, and usually precedes a bird-bath-boof experience.
I have posted this link to his vid a few times now. And Clement is probs one of the most accomplished on an Ace in breezy DW conditions. His balance and carving off his fin demonstrate a very high skill and comfort level. Notice he always jumps to the waves ahead and guns it full power to get there. No stalling or broaching problems because of his fin. The amount he moves forward and back and left and right is really quite excellent vs Penelope or Olivia.
But it was not that apparent the nose of the Ace was going to pearl that deep and fill up so quick. In the vid - the wave ahead actually looked somewhat flat and perfect to plane over. So vids can be quite deceiving at times. In that instance -> I would have slowed down by dragging my paddle but still gotten back to keep the nose up. The wave ahead was obviously much steeper in real life vs so much squashed down by the high up GoPro perspective. I have pearled the Touring pin once like that in steep waves - and once was plenty enough.
Trying to plane the Touring pin with its low rocker piercing displacement nose is a very risky endeavor vs a surf nose board with plenty of rocker. But planing only occurs in waves that are somewhat steep. So sometimes you have just got to go for it. Haha.
Here is how much nose rocker my M14 has with the SIC 7.0 fin propping up the tail off the snow. Anyone that wants to turn on a DW needs to get a 7.0 fin. It saved me yesterday from a stall and broach because of its small size - yet gave me just enough directional stability. In the breezy side wind yesterday - I was going full power left but the board was mostly wanting to still go right. Not good if it is blowing you away from land. Did get the board to plane a bit so that was worth it. ;D
https://youtu.be/HbdKlEpK4rg
Eagle,
You using an AllStar23. You ASKED for the Rail26. I'm surprised you aren't on one. At least try it. I would venture to suggest that you could have a very sweet quiver with just your Allstar23 and a Rail26.
I realise you pick up boards second hand at good prices but if you sold a few of your current boards you could just buy a Rail26 new. The Bullet will sell at a good price, it's still top of its game (you, however are too light for it). Sell the Dominator and Touring cheap and do some newcomers to the sport a favor.
Honestly a Rail 26 would easily replace your Dominator, Touring, Bullet and M14. Both for grin factor and speed. OK, the M14 is nice to be on in winter coz it's extra stable and it's exxxxtra cold where you ride. So keep that, it's always a good board for DW nOOb friends to start on.
Put it this way. If a clone of yourself, Eagle2, on a Rail26 were to race you across a dozen races of random conditions and routes; I'd say Eagle2 would, overall, have the edge on you with either of Dominator, Touring, Bullet. And be having more fun. The Dominator may have a slight edge on flat, but then you should be on your AS23. The Bullet may have a slight edge jumping up on a plane just slighty earlier in light DW, it does rule for that, but then again you'd be on your AS23. What's the Touring got going for it? A sexy classic fish pintail shape? Guess what, so does the Rail. The Rail26 would beat the M14 in all conditions, but if you have to keep a deep winter safety board keep that one. It's solid and pretty and fun even if it won't win anything.
I'd bet you beers on it if I were closer.
Just me wondering why the guy who got what he asked for with the Rail isn't on one yet. It's not a board for DW nOObs, but if you're riding your AS23 on downwinders you most definitely will be right at home on the Rail26.
You don't need that extra rocker for steep short period downwinds. You adapt pretty quickly to lower rocker which is why all current DW boards are lower rocker. I'd even say its funner and faster. Makes you be correct more of the time. It's that learning which is the fun part. My Rogue is lower than the Rail and I rarely poke it (and I'm not a guy who hangs out on the back of my board. Like Clement and Olivia I'm right back up at the handle in between screamers). I learned that on my M14 V1.
Speaking of poking check DK's vid where (his first ride) he does poke the Rail. I think it's on of the best handling boards if it does poke. Comes right back up and don't slam the brakes like a Bullet V2. It has a very sleek nose and just the right amount of ski jump up at the tip. Next summer he won't be poking it any more.
Think about it. Quiver slimming is very healthy.
Quote from: Eagle on January 02, 2017, 12:43:02 PM
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Anyone that wants to turn on a DW needs to get a 7.0 fin. It saved me yesterday from a stall and broach because of its small size - yet gave me just enough directional stability. In the breezy side wind yesterday - I was going full power left but the board was mostly wanting to still go right. Not good if it is blowing you away from land. Did get the board to plane a bit so that was worth it. ;D
I concur with Eagle on the smaller fin.
A10,
recently you recommended a bigger fin for bigger conditions. What was with that? I'm in Eagles camp.
DK,
You got some fins to fiddle with the Rail26? Let us know what works for you. You are the turn master so I'd love to hear what you think.
Speaking of standing at the handle.
Offshore,
Notice how both Clement and Olivia paddle standing at the handle and move back for the drops and the turns, then come back up to the handle. I don't think you being planted at "the tiller" position is helping you. What did DJ call that again?
I can understand why a SIC F16 and an Ace are pretty forgiving and allow you to stay planted a foot and a 1/2 behind the handle but it clearly isn't the optimal way to get into faces of a wave for some planning action.
Factor in that taking a step back actually scoots your board forward in too.
Quote from: yugi on January 03, 2017, 04:34:51 AM
A10,
recently you recommended a bigger fin for bigger conditions. What was with that? I'm in Eagles camp.
The conditions I downwind in are often quite a bit more extreme and confused than I most often see videos of here. Once you reach a point where you are getting blown into waist-high+ bumps without having to paddle for them, in very confused seas with steep drops, you need some depth in your fin for control, otherwise your rear end will let go: If the bump raises your rear tail sufficiently that the depth of your fin is exceeded then you are a mere passenger who has an uncertain near future. This is why most specialised downwind fins and rudder have depths in excess of 8".
Moreover, a 10" True Ames Squirrel has an area of around 40 sq inches or slightly less. So it is similar in area to the VMG Mako 37 that Beau O'Brian uses for downwind racing (and smaller than their Mako 44 that VMG recommend for rough water stability). The Future California Downwind (9.5" depth) has 43.5. So it is not as if even the biggest Squirrel fin I use is big in terms of area.
I use smaller fins in smaller conditions, and have been a fan of the SIC Weedless 7.0 since even before Eagle :) I have two of them (and two of the 8.3 too) and will use them in smaller conditions - or drop to a smaller size Squirrel or 8 or 9" depending on the sea state and how much surfing, as opposed to gliding, will be required.
Sometimes speed and fun is all about control, not lack of drag.
I understand the deep area will help stabilise roll but would think it also makes the board broach more if heading sidewind and pushed sideways by a wave. Guess I need to try. I'll get a FatBoy 10" sometime.
It's all so personal. I tend to get used to what I have. So I know to get a feel for something you first need to get used to, but by then you're, well, pretty used to it.
What works well on an Ace?
Haha!! yugi - the Rail looks to be a nice board. But with my family and friends all needing a board to ride on -> do not have options to cut back. I need all 5 boards!! Maybe if I were a single Eagle2 that would work. But I have a wife and kids - and they all need boards! Plus friends and relatives when they visit. But really -> the only boards I use are the M14 and AS23. The others are superfluous for me at this point. The Dom and Touring pin are too wide. And the Bullet does not have enough rocker for steep drops. But my weight is ok on that board. Seems to float me about right.
The M14 with the SIC 7.0 actually does turn on a dime and feels kinda like a 12'6. That fin is simply awesome with that board. Actually frees up the bottom and allows the board to unstick because there is less drag. That is my goto DW board. And the AS23 is the board that challenges me in cold water and in breeze up to 15 kts. Yesterday was quite risky on that board - as the breeze was very gusty with lots of reflected cross chop. You must try one. Really works the legs. Stayed dry though -> so that in itself was a reasonable accomplishment.
But yes more rocker is better in steep drops. Much safer and easier to ride in festive conditions. My skill level is crap vs some guys I know. So more stable is always better for me. I have tried all my boards in adverse conditions. The AS23 is the worst -> and the M14 the best. My guess is the 26.5 Rail would be a very straightforward DW board for me to ride though. 26.5 is very wide. Have you tried an AS23 yet? Pics showing the huge design differences btwn these very excellent boards.
Yugi - I'm not talking about stabilising roll - that's something different altogether. I'm talking about what happens when a bump approaches from behind and lifts the tail of your board. You need your weight forward in order to maximise your chances of catching the bump. But this will mean that the tail end of your board will be lifted clear of the water surface as the bump passes under you (in steep short period swell). If your fin has insufficient depth or area towards the tip then you will lose control of the tail at this point and it is likely either that you will lose direction and/or if it coincides with a paddle stroke you can pull yourself round and broach or pearl the board. The beauty of a squirrel cutaway type design is that the area is kept down low in order to enable this control while still maintaining a relatively low overall area and a short base (thereby enhancing manoeuvrability).
The standard Ace fin isn't too bad in it. A Squirrel/Fat Boy gives a bit more stability and control. But a secret to the Ace is using using opposite rail steer so it's a bit different from other boards. It also has the fin placed a bit more forward than many which is another factor to consider, and the pintail is in effect a fin in itself if you use it right. So you don't need as much area as you do with some other boards. It can't really be tamed terribly well by changes of fin: the Ace handling is a kinda law unto itself and you have to ride it a bit differently from other boards.
I see. I have that happen in my early days on a very straight [flatwater] 14'. I haven't had that in years! Yet I am at the handle, sometimes even stomp a foot well forward of the handle if I risk losing the wave but still have a chance to get it. My Rogue has the fin box well forward. Yet I do ride other boards, ;ile Bullets which have the fin far back. I haven't had that in so long. Am I just maintaining speed better? Paddling harder? Hmmm, I wonder why.
Now I'm curious what I'm doing right!
OK, yes, for that you'd want depth.
A10 is correct. He did put me onto the 7.0 when I was looking for a fin better than the 8.3 SIC. I found on my AS23 I could not go 90 cross waves in breeze with the 8.3 without stalling the fin. And he suggested the 7.0 or Fat Boy. Tried one 7.0 and bought another 2 for my other boards I liked it so much. This way my wife also uses the 7.0 on the Dominator. I now have 3-7.0 and 2-8.3 SIC fins. But the weird thing is there are 2 different foil sections. One fatter and one thinner. The fatter one is a touch more forgiving vs the thinner one. Very nuanced though.
I think Clement just uses the OEM Race 23 orange hexcel fin. Same as what came with Touring board. Ok narrow dolphin that works ok. In the pic it is attached to the Dominator to free up the tail. I could feel the drag on a stall though with that fin. The 8.3 and the Race 23 fins were my most used fins at that point. The 7.0 -> I use for everything now.
"You don't need that extra rocker for steep short period downwinds. You adapt pretty quickly to lower rocker which is why all current DW boards are lower rocker. I'd even say its funner and faster. Makes you be correct more of the time."
yugi - you must be joking about this. Just try if you can - riding a flat rocker AS23 vs a M14 in steep short period DW. Anything 15-30 kts would work. And let me know what you think. You do not adapt pretty quickly in festive conditions unless you are Connor or Kai. The AS23 is pretty much all I can handle in 15 kts. 20 kts DW with steep waves is pushing my limits hugely on that board. 15 kts small waves is super fun though. Actually is perfect in that.
I think Yugi is saying this maybe perhaps because of his experience with particular boards. Some boards tend to sit high on the bump and rarely scoot down it unless you go really mental. These kinds of boards (and I'd include maybe the Bark Vapor in this - although it actually achieves quite a good balance between these conditions) don't need the rocker so much. But in really good and big conditions rocker is generally your friend for sure - most brands don't make a full-on planing-style DW board so we don't commonly see many of the top people on them except maybe come M2O when they are paddling custom ULs badged to look like their sponsors' boards. If they did make them then we'd see them more often, and we'd see more extreme conditions tackled in international races. At the moment most big races outside Hawaii are pretty tame.
I'd be interested to see our friends from Cape Town racing in 30+ knots on a Naish Maliko 2017 versus a Naish Glide 2013 (or even 2010). And a SIC Bullet V1 vs. a Bullet V2.
Probs the market for steep short period DW action is pretty small. Sure the lower rocker Bullet is ok - but no way you want that going into Squamish River. Pearl city vs stall on the tail. Whereas the M14 just carries along just fine - much better balanced.
Kinda like your SW23 vs your rockered DW boards. Give me a rockered DW board any day over the new gen flat rockered boards for festive DW conditions.
I paddled the Bullet a lot in all conditions. So I know that board like the back of my hand. All of my boards really. But let me see an average joe rider paddle an AS23 in 20kts short period chop. That would be one very wet rider. Probs crying for mommy. Easy to talk about this on dry land. But I actually have done this in real life. 8)
Try one of the narrow Aces in 25 knots+ and waist-high bumps if you *really* want a challenge. The 23 AS will feel easy! I nearly gave up SUP altogether: there's "a challenge" and then there's "tooth extraction with no anaesthetic". That board has given me the only times in a SUP that I really haven't enjoyed.
But then...in groomed small stuff and 20 knots it is a blast.
Still damned ugly no matter what the conditions though 😀
"Still damned ugly no matter what the conditions though 😀" ;D
Haha! I have cried mommy often enough A10. I am not that much of a masochist. I know my limits. ;)
The AS23 is actually not bad when you get back over the fat tail. It maneuvers quite well even though it has that triple concave. But since I cannot surf the tail like Clement - my skill level on the Ace or even my Touring pin is quite lame. I can just dig in and surf along. And sometimes plane if the waves ahead are small. Not a lot more. Just enough to get me by in about 25-30 kts. Otherwise I find the pin to be too tricky. Not many can do what Clement easily demonstrates. As noted many times - my balance is crap - and that is why I got the AS23. Best board for the average joe to improve their balance by far. Another one is to stand way forward on the Dom deep vee or much better - stand way back on a rounded pin. Stationary with no brace. Then with eyes closed. ;)
. [forgot to add pic]
Quote from: Eagle on January 03, 2017, 01:44:58 PM
"You don’t need that extra rocker for steep short period downwinds. You adapt pretty quickly to lower rocker which is why all current DW boards are lower rocker. I’d even say its funner and faster. Makes you be correct more of the time."
yugi - you must be joking about this. Just try if you can - riding a flat rocker AS23 vs a M14 in steep short period DW. Anything 15-30 kts would work. And let me know what you think. You do not adapt pretty quickly in festive conditions unless you are Connor or Kai. The AS23 is pretty much all I can handle in 15 kts. 20 kts DW with steep waves is pushing my limits hugely on that board. 15 kts small waves is super fun though. Actually is perfect in that.
No doubt the AS23 would kick my ass. But that would be the 23 part, not a lack of rocker.
No doubt huge rocker works in windy big short period swell. It certainly is more foolproof.
What I’m saying is that you can learn to ride something with lower rocker. Foolproof isn’t always best either, learning and performance is major fun. I had an M14, I know it well. I’ve ridden lots of low rocker boards on very festive steep short period downwinds, and not just clean low fetch high wind easy groomed stuff, far the opposite. Very low rocker can work very well. Note it’s not just about rocker. Bear with me.
A Naish Maliko is very low rocker. A x26 in big conditions certainly spanks me. I’ve spent a lot of time getting back on it. It’s tricky because it’s so light and accelerations are so quick that very exact balance and very good sense of what it going to do are necessary. I’m definitely getting a lot better. I don’t like this kind of board for bigger downwiders. It has more to do with its very directional, parallel outline and vertical sidewall rails than low rocker. It’s not very turny, it’s more a move back and pivot kind of board. In strong wind fresh fetch clean conditions like DJ has or the longer fast ocean rollers like Cape Town I can see it working. But, IMO, there are conditions where it just isn’t fun.
Very low rocker can work just fine. I’ve ridden a custom 14’x26 with very low rocker, you’d think it was a mistake. Low volume too. Triming it to keep the nose just a few inches off the water at all times, turning it to keep it’s pointy nose between the waves is a blast. Surprisingly this board excels in very festive steep short nasty stuff. Lack of vertical sidewalls is a godsend in crazy mixed up stuff. I think A10 will understand, on this it is similar to the CGrey you have. Pic below.
A agree, the BulletV2, is less ideal for mentioned conditions. It’s not about it’s low rocker. It’s that it’s more a stable ride than a nimble ride and it’s shoulders are a bit wide. It’s too big and voluminous, for me and I imagine you, to be nimble. Nore is it optimised for that. It’s a board more for bigger riders.
When I switched from M14 to Rogue, which is possibly lower rocker than Bullet V2, I had concerns similar to what you express. I poked a lot more in the beginning. Now I rarely do. I absolutely love that board in very big, short, steep conditions. The Rogue handles short steep perfectly. So easy to keep the nose just where you want it. I love that board.
The Rail26 might be just even better. I think a Rail26 would work nicely in your conditions. The Rail has a little more rocker, right up front at the tip, than a BulletV2 or a Rogue. It is slightly tuned more for exactly your conditions. You’d still need to change your tactics in a wave from an M14. But as mentioned that learning curve is maybe just exactly what is so fun.
Oddly I do have some idea about low rocker pintail shapes. The Touring does all of that and more. But is more of a handful because it has this big heavy piercing displacement nose that easily pearls twists and dumps. A fair bit tubbier though at its max width but narrows very quickly at both ends. Quite a pleasant fast AW shape actually. So can appreciate the differences btwn boards. I have always noted that pearling is not a positive - but a negative. And if you do this -> you need to step back and adjust your fore aft trim. Mandatory. My objective always is to go to the verge of pearling - and just. A very fine line - but this gives max speed down the wave before stepping back to unstick and plane.
The Rail has much more rocker than the AS23. Inches and inches more. In medium conditions the Rail 26.5 looks perfectly fine for a DW board though. To me it looks to be a blend btwn the Bullet V1 and Bullet V2 with a little vee entry - continuous rocker - and a slimmer shape. The Bullet V2 is a bit deceiving though. The wider shoulders are wider above water but not at waterline compared to the M14. The actual measurements were very eye opening. As noted though - the AS23 and Rail 26.5 would probs be perfect around here if I had only 2 boards to choose from. Remember I started to DW on the Dom then Touring then Bullet. So am very used to low rocker boards. I have taken all those boards out in very inclement conditions. AW and DW.
Here are some rocker line Rail 28 pics from viator vs my 28 M14. Would be interesting to see if the 26.5 rocker is less or the same.
"
A Naish Maliko is very low rocker. A x26 in big conditions certainly spanks me. I've spent a lot of time getting back on it. It's tricky because it's so light and accelerations are so quick that very exact balance and very good sense of what it going to do are necessary. I'm definitely getting a lot better. I don't like this kind of board for bigger downwiders. It has more to do with its very directional, parallel outline and vertical sidewall rails than low rocker. It's not very turny, it's more a move back and pivot kind of board. In strong wind fresh fetch clean conditions like DJ has or the longer fast ocean rollers like Cape Town I can see it working. But, IMO, there are conditions where it just isn't fun."
It does look like it has very little rocker but looking at the nose is very deceiving because the whole board has a continuous rocker with a lot towards the rear (not tail).. I'll have to take a pick showing how high the nose sits if you were to stand on the tail on flat ground.. I think this type of rocker is necessary to get max water-line and glide out of as short a board possible.. It does take more skill to make it work compared to your typical DW style board..
I call this shape a 'clubby-board' shape.. and they've been at this a lot longer than us..
Quote from: Eagle on January 03, 2017, 10:40:44 PM
Here are some rocker line Rail 28 pics from viator vs my 28 M14. Would be interesting to see if the 26.5 rocker is less or the same.
less
Quote from: yugi on January 03, 2017, 04:34:51 AM
Quote from: Eagle on January 02, 2017, 12:43:02 PM
...
Anyone that wants to turn on a DW needs to get a 7.0 fin. It saved me yesterday from a stall and broach because of its small size - yet gave me just enough directional stability. In the breezy side wind yesterday - I was going full power left but the board was mostly wanting to still go right. Not good if it is blowing you away from land. Did get the board to plane a bit so that was worth it. ;D
I concur with Eagle on the smaller fin.
A10,
recently you recommended a bigger fin for bigger conditions. What was with that? I'm in Eagles camp.
DK,
You got some fins to fiddle with the Rail26? Let us know what works for you. You are the turn master so I'd love to hear what you think.
For the last 4 years I have been using the Aercor from Larry Allison and Jeremy Riggs. It works great in all conditions, no drag at all and makes the board super loose on the bumps. Everyone who tries it says the best.
Quote from: yugi on January 03, 2017, 11:30:33 PM
Quote from: Eagle on January 03, 2017, 10:40:44 PM
Here are some rocker line Rail 28 pics from viator vs my 28 M14. Would be interesting to see if the 26.5 rocker is less or the same.
less
Are you sure? It's unusual to change the rocker between different width models of the same design. In fact, sometimes even different length boards within a range will maintain the same amount of overall rocker (e.g. the first Naish Glide range).
I haven't seen a Rail 26.5 for a while. But when I did look st one I didn't remember thinking it was particularly low rocker. What I did think at the time was that it was probably too close in overall design concept to my Bullet V1 to justify owning both.
We need someone to actually measure the rocker of the Rail 14x26.5" and 28".
There are advantages and disadvantages to both low rocker and high rocker designs.
ooops, sorry. I missread the question and answered Rail vs M14.
I have not seen the Rail28. Looks exactly the same as the 26. I Imagine it is just scaled up in both volume and width.
Quote from: dk78 on January 04, 2017, 12:11:55 AM
For the last 4 years I have been using the Aercor from Larry Allison and Jeremy Riggs. It works great in all conditions, no drag at all and makes the board super loose on the bumps. Everyone who tries it says the best.
It makes sense in a few ways. I should try it.
If Larry makes any changes to it I'd request a lower angle at the base. We got weeds here in summer.
I'd like to try an Aercor but haven't been able to buy one. I've tried several times but either I've got no reply from Larry or Jeremy Riggs or they have been out of stock.
I'm a bit suspicious about its surfing capabilities though. Many of the runs I do end with beach breaks, so you really needs fin that can surf well, not just downwind. Anyway, I enjoy surfing my DW boards in small stuff. In fact last week I surfed my 16ft x14.5" DW board on a sandbank bombora and the GPS showed a total of 4 miles spent actually wave-riding in a 2.5hr session! You couldn't do that on a 7ft short SUP (well, I couldn't, anyway).
But I'm willing to try an Aervor, if only I could actually get my hands on one. Some US sources seem reluctant to deal with overseas customers.
That's an impressively narrow board, A10!
Haha! Sorry, that should have read 24.5".
I wouldn't want to go any narrower. I tend to find my toes regularly off the deck pad as it is. I'm fairly broad, and 26" wide feels about right to me. My 23" and 25" wide 14ft boards often too have me wishing for more deck area. I hardly ever hit the rail with the paddle on a 26" wide board, so it's not clear to me that for someone my build going narrower brings much advantage.
^ interesting that you choose that long narrow gun to surf with. Now I want to try that one even more.
"It's too big and voluminous, for me and I imagine you, to be nimble. Nore is it optimised for that. It's a board more for bigger riders."
yugi - the volume of the 26.5 Rail is 270L and the Bullet V2 is 269L I never had the feeling the Bullet was meant for really bigger riders. Maybe the F14 though. The V2 is actually quite nimble for me vs the M14. But ever since putting that 7.0 fin on the M14 - that board now has a perfectly nice loose tail. And turns 100% for me. The sticking problem seems to have resolved itself.
Personally though I like the Bullet V2 the way it is. The wider shoulders above water seem to give it more float the times it starts to pearl. So it is narrow at the waterline for speed -> plus has good float when it planes. Quite a nice little nuanced shape that way. I had the impression riders of all sizes really like that board. The V2 and M14 have just the right amount of overlap for my uses actually. To me the Rail 26.5 would simply split that difference. Too bad though that proto never came available to me.
^ interesting. I'd have thought a lot less for the Rail. I wonder where the volume is hidden. Not in the nose, nor the tail, nor the middle. Pick either up or just look at on the water and anyone would tell you the same. Hmmmm.
In-between those 2 is good description of the Rail.
add: nimbler and better upwind. A bit lighter, better in big chop and may be a bit faster on flats. Not as easy as either of the other 2, more for a lighter or skilled rider.
Exactly: would replace the other 2. (and a Dominator and a Starby Touring)
Yep - gone over that. Definitely if single -> the AS23 and Rail 26.5 is very hard to beat. Very hard. But in my situation - will have to make do with my 5 boards. Now what about A10 and all his boards? A10 if you had to choose only 2-14' boards out of your quiver - which 2 would you pick? :o
Quote from: yugi on January 04, 2017, 08:21:01 AM
^ interesting that you choose that long narrow gun to surf with. Now I want to try that one even more.
It's a hoot, and surfs better than many boards I've tried in the 11-14ft range. It is indeed basically just a long thin gun. The thickness and shape of the rails is surf sup not raceboard SUP. In pure flat water it's not fast. But in lively DW conditions and surf it is a total blast and is very user-friendly. It's an interesting concept for an ocean board - the shaper has gone for maximum control, surfability and fun in hell conditions rather than compromising the design by also having to worry about speed in general ocean races and flat water. It's a board for surfers IMO, and when surfers see it they tend to gather round it and go "wow, unreal!". The thickness of it is literally half that of some race boards, and it makes the Bullet, M14 etc look like they have eaten far too many McDonalds. It's very tough too - no paint chipping nonsense, and is no heavier than my 14ft Vapor (maybe lighter?) despite being 16ft long. It's got a nice SIC-(or Blue Planet-) style handle too, which makes it easy to carry in high winds. And it cost me less than a premium-brand 14fter would have, and fantastically less than a production UL (eg. SIC, NSP etc) would have. Hmm...makes you think, doesn't it?
Quote from: yugi on January 04, 2017, 09:07:47 AM
^ interesting. I'd have thought a lot less for the Rail. I wonder where the volume is hidden. Not in the nose, nor the tail, nor the middle. Pick either up or just look at on the water and anyone would tell you the same. Hmmmm.
The Rail is thick in the middle. Thicker than the Bullet V2.
Quote from: Eagle on January 04, 2017, 09:34:01 AM
Yep - gone over that. Definitely if single -> the AS23 and Rail 26.5 is very hard to beat. Very hard. But in my situation - will have to make do with my 5 boards. Now what about A10 and all his boards? A10 if you had to choose only 2-14' boards out of your quiver - which 2 would you pick? :o
Err... well I hope that never happens because I need a minimum of three: flat water/race, mild downwind and big downwind. I'm looking for a new flat water board (my SIC X14 is feeling too wide these days) so I don't know what that would be. Of the 14ft ocean boards, hmm.. maybe I'd keep the Vapor and the Bullet V1. But the Coreban Dart is very useful when things go totally off-the-scale ballistic too.
Right at this moment I'm pretty much paddling the 16x24 all the time in the ocean and the 14x23 Sideswipe in pure flat water. But I'm wondering about getting something like the 2017 Fanatic Strike2 for flat water maybe. Or a Jav 2017. Perhaps a FX14. Or maybe just go custom again because I'm not sure that the brands are making particularly good flat water boards right now. For instance, I'd have a D2 but I'd like a little more volume, and I'd like a FX14 but think it probably has too much volume. And so on...
It's tricky - I'm very lucky to live somewhere where I can be paddling pure flat water glassy protected waters (or rivers) one day and downwinding in head-high ocean bumps or 50 knots the next. And then there's a variety of surf too. There's a reason I have so many boards!
Haha! Variety is the spice of life for sure. ;)
The Rail has the best shape for downwind paddling that I have ever tried. Starting from the nose, it doesn't pearl for any reason, it cuts like a knife the front swell and pops out without losing any speed. Pealing is very usual on downwinders but with this board you just forget about this problem. The narrow nose also works extremely well with side chop and side swell, I have never been so trouble free with side swell as on this board. It goes like a train on the rail! The board has a big volume but it is so well distributed that you cannot feel it and the tail is stable and safe when you jump back on it. I have tried so many boards all these years and I had a lot fun with all of them. But the Rail is a class on its own.
Last but no least, it goes extremely well on flatwater for a downwind board. Without any hard effort I can paddle at almost 9km/h. Honestly, I can't find anything that I don't like about this board.
Note that I have no connection with the company and I paid the board as a normal customer.
I'm looking forward to a 16' x 25 Rail! Are you listening Jimmy?
That would be an ultimate all conditions board. It could rule in DWs and be close to a 14' race board on flats. It could turn too. Look how A10 chooses to use his 16’ x 24.5 for surfing.
Quote from: Area 10 on January 04, 2017, 03:26:40 AM
I'd like to try an Aercor but haven't been able to buy one. I've tried several times but either I've got no reply from Larry or Jeremy Riggs or they have been out of stock.
I'm a bit suspicious about its surfing capabilities though. Many of the runs I do end with beach breaks, so you really needs fin that can surf well, not just downwind. Anyway, I enjoy surfing my DW boards in small stuff. In fact last week I surfed my 16ft x14.5" DW board on a sandbank bombora and the GPS showed a total of 4 miles spent actually wave-riding in a 2.5hr session! You couldn't do that on a 7ft short SUP (well, I couldn't, anyway).
But I'm willing to try an Aervor, if only I could actually get my hands on one. Some US sources seem reluctant to deal with overseas customers.
Hi Area10, Can't speak for Jeremy, but I looked thru my emails here on the forum and don't see any requests from you about anything. Where are you based my friend? Mahalo, Larry
Larry you mentioned to me in your PM - you were getting a carbon Arecor ready to sell. Do you have that fin available now? And would it fit in my AS23 fin slot?
Quote from: Eagle on January 04, 2017, 12:56:26 PM
Larry you mentioned to me in your PM - you were getting a carbon Arecor ready to sell. Do you have that fin available now? And would it fit in my AS23 fin slot?
Eagle, We modified the base of the new Aercor to fit 8" and 10" fin boxes, along with different structure at lower price as you and I talked about. Completion of this will now be mid to late Feb. due the demand and orders of the Allison Probox Race Twins with Ventral are first to come out in Foam/Carbon. Will keep the Zone informed. Mahalo, Larry
Quote from: DavidJohn on January 03, 2017, 10:57:27 PM
"
A Naish Maliko is very low rocker. A x26 in big conditions certainly spanks me. I've spent a lot of time getting back on it. It's tricky because it's so light and accelerations are so quick that very exact balance and very good sense of what it going to do are necessary. I'm definitely getting a lot better. I don't like this kind of board for bigger downwiders. It has more to do with its very directional, parallel outline and vertical sidewall rails than low rocker. It's not very turny, it's more a move back and pivot kind of board. In strong wind fresh fetch clean conditions like DJ has or the longer fast ocean rollers like Cape Town I can see it working. But, IMO, there are conditions where it just isn't fun."
It does look like it has very little rocker but looking at the nose is very deceiving because the whole board has a continuous rocker with a lot towards the rear (not tail).. I'll have to take a pick showing how high the nose sits if you were to stand on the tail on flat ground.. I think this type of rocker is necessary to get max water-line and glide out of as short a board possible.. It does take more skill to make it work compared to your typical DW style board..
I call this shape a 'clubby-board' shape.. and they've been at this a lot longer than us..
Check out Ann's M14 [classic downwind board shape] and my seemingly flat rockered Maliko..
Check the difference at the tail [about 4 1/2''] and check the noses [about 4 1/2''].. Anyone else find that interesting..
(http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy27/djp-3/DJ%202012%20pics/IMG_0641_zpshkcctemr.jpg)
Quote from: ProBox-Larry on January 04, 2017, 03:36:12 PM
Quote from: Eagle on January 04, 2017, 12:56:26 PM
Larry you mentioned to me in your PM - you were getting a carbon Arecor ready to sell. Do you have that fin available now? And would it fit in my AS23 fin slot?
Eagle, We modified the base of the new Aercor to fit 8" and 10" fin boxes, along with different structure at lower price as you and I talked about. Completion of this will now be mid to late Feb. due the demand and orders of the Allison Probox Race Twins with Ventral are first to come out in Foam/Carbon. Will keep the Zone informed. Mahalo, Larry
Graphics look real nice. :)
Quote from: DavidJohn on January 04, 2017, 03:57:19 PM
Quote from: DavidJohn on January 03, 2017, 10:57:27 PM
"
A Naish Maliko is very low rocker. A x26 in big conditions certainly spanks me. I've spent a lot of time getting back on it. It's tricky because it's so light and accelerations are so quick that very exact balance and very good sense of what it going to do are necessary. I'm definitely getting a lot better. I don't like this kind of board for bigger downwiders. It has more to do with its very directional, parallel outline and vertical sidewall rails than low rocker. It's not very turny, it's more a move back and pivot kind of board. In strong wind fresh fetch clean conditions like DJ has or the longer fast ocean rollers like Cape Town I can see it working. But, IMO, there are conditions where it just isn't fun."
It does look like it has very little rocker but looking at the nose is very deceiving because the whole board has a continuous rocker with a lot towards the rear (not tail).. I'll have to take a pick showing how high the nose sits if you were to stand on the tail on flat ground.. I think this type of rocker is necessary to get max water-line and glide out of as short a board possible.. It does take more skill to make it work compared to your typical DW style board..
I call this shape a 'clubby-board' shape.. and they've been at this a lot longer than us..
Check out Ann's M14 [classic downwind board shape] and my seemingly flat rockered Maliko..
Check the difference at the tail [about 4 1/2''] and check the noses [about 4 1/2''].. Anyone else find that interesting..
(http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy27/djp-3/DJ%202012%20pics/IMG_0641_zpshkcctemr.jpg)
if you put the naish on a set of stands and do the string line between two posts and take a few measurements i can compare exactly as i think i have the 14' rocker on shape3d, the tail rockers look a lot more similar than the nose.
Quote from: yugi on January 04, 2017, 11:47:21 AM
I'm looking forward to a 16' x 25 Rail! Are you listening Jimmy?
That would be an ultimate all conditions board. It could rule in DWs and be close to a 14' race board on flats. It could turn too. Look how A10 chooses to use his 16' x 24.5 for surfing.
Im going to do some more 16 when i get home which are kinda like crossed between a m14 and a rail but thined out and thenhopfully this summer will not be so crazy as last so will have to find a way for you to have a go. maybe we can arrange a big euro dw meet up week in france or something, some were like lacanau were you have the mega lakes and a reliable sea breezes plus waves ect camping ect on the door step and good food and beer :)
Quote from: Off-Shore on January 01, 2017, 11:58:01 PM
Eagle, thanks for your tips and screenshots. It is amazing how much the dugout fills up.. I can absolutely see that my legs did not move much and the right thing would be to step back as you say and head right. Something I have done many times on my Bullet but need to summon up the courage to do on the Ace. This is a manoeuver that I practice a lot in the flat and in downbreezer conditions both goofy and regular foot, but have not practiced much on the Ace, and clearly need to. But as you say when things get festive, the surf-nosed boards will be my preference too.
Once you get used to it, it's not too bad stepping back to the tail of the Ace. I find myself moving back and forth from the front of the standing area to the tail all the time - stay forward to catch the bumps then move back to avoid pearling and also slow down to stay on the bump longer. It may be easier to maintain balance if you take 2 foot hops to move back and forth. One advantage with hopping is that you can continue paddling without interruption as you move move back and forth and maintain your speed. Once you get used to that, you can start stepping back. I have crappy surfing skills but with practice can now step back and forth on my Ace on a bump by bump basis. It's also a great workout and fun to boot. By getting back the right amount when on a bump, you'll dramatically reduce the amount of pearling.
Sometimes when I can't get back quickly enough or I catch a big bump that has a good probability of sending me flying, I'll drop down to one knee until I've made the descent down the face. This comes in handy for sure.
The Ace is tricky to surf steer on a bump (I use opposite rail steering more often) - except for very talented riders. When I catch a bump, I just go with the flow to ride it as long as I can and connect as many bumps as I can. If you have the fitness for it, the Ace is amazing in that you can continually connect bumps better than any other board I've tried. I can see how pros maintain such high average speeds on the Ace in not so high winds.
I've had an Ace in my quiver for about 5 years now (The NEW was the name before Starboard came to their senses and renamed it the Ace) so I've had the advantage of more practice on it than most. Funny, I first got one as a flatwater race board, but it's turned out to be my favourite downwind board by far.
Here's a video and photos of my Ace on a downwinder with winds of 27mph gusting to 37mph. The wind was side-offshore, so that made for nicely groomed bumps which is not what we normally get. As usual, the video makes it look smaller than it was. The photos do a better job of showing the conditions. Since it was consistently windy that day, I spent much of the time standing between the tail and half-way up to the front. When the wind gets weaker, I spend more time closer to the front of the standing area.
http://supdownwind.blogspot.ca/2015/11/nov-1-downwinder-jack-darling-to-col.html (http://supdownwind.blogspot.ca/2015/11/nov-1-downwinder-jack-darling-to-col.html)
Stick with the Ace on those downwinders. It'll be worth it as you get more used to the board.
^ Fun video. It's always fun to see different places.
I have a question: there seem to be some larger rolling waves. Are they rolling past you [faster]? Or am I reading that wrong?
Good info here, thought I would share alittle history that was requested by a few of you from some PM's. I will start with 3 of the early on designs with a brief summary of why they were used.
The First is this pointer fin style, upright in shape like this Maui Fin Blade we produced for them in the late 80's. Alot of the companies on Maui liked this Upright design because it pivot turned quickly to keep up engaged with catching the next bump. The draw back was when you hit flats with this Upright Narrow design you would Yaw all over the place and battle to stay on your board.
I never liked the Upright Blade design here in our Southern Calif Waters. So I came up with the Stealth Single fin which Jim Terrell liked back in 2010 when he was riding Barks. Here is a review from Standup Paddle Magazine in 2010 talking about that on my Blog
http://www.allisonsupracefins.com/blogger/post/2659487653875810304
The reason for this design was the reverse rake I create from my Windsurf Slalom design of the 80's to work on Bark Boards. The fin box on Barks were placed so far back on the tail like SIC which came out later with their version fin, like the pic below. Other fins with rake would be great for tracking but hard to maneuver which made this Allison Stealth Design the go to fin.
Another Fin that started out as a unlimited fin for Rob Rojas in 2011 was another version of reverse rake to shed weeds but still turn quickly in the pic below. Now this fin is used for Touring and Yoga Boards called the Paddle Core Fitness fin for that same reason, large bottom end for stability and reverse rake to small tip for easy turning.
The Cutaway seems to be the favorite in downwinding. I don't do anything cutaway in the Sup World, because if mother nature is not pushing you then you are screwed due to lack of surface area at the base. This fin was popular in the 90's when high performance longboards were the rage. The purpose of this type of fin is to maneuver a hard turning board on a wave with power pushing you and sucked in mushy waves. Which I find interesting in the Sup World when a company states this fin is "Great Buoy turning in Racing" My comment is: You Need to be on the board long enough to get to the Buoy to make the turn! Because you loose Stability and lack Drive due to a narrow fin base. For those of you who like this type of fin, Paddle it in flats with no wind, STOP Paddling quickly and watch how fast your board comes to a stop out of a glide and becomes Wobbly.
OK now that I shared alittle history of my journey to present will help explain why I recommend certain fins for Downwind Situations.
Starting with the Ninja which is a Easy riding fin and the favorite of many for almost 10 years in the Sup Community. The Ninja has a good bottom end for lateral hold and power to pull you thru the flats. The leading front edge cuts thru seed weed nicely with the top section flexing small for good release having the feel of a 8 inch high fin glide, this concept only works in a Fiber Glass Structure make up. The Ninja is a popular downwind fin for high volume tails or where the fin box is placed forward further than 15 inches off the tail. You need the long sweep of the Ninja for hold.
Larry - I shouldn't think many people are using cutaway fins like that for downwinding: they work best in a 2+1 setup and all production DW boards that I know of are single fins. Although, I was actually considering ordering a custom DW board with a modified 2+1 setup, but that's another story...
The fins that work surprisingly well for DW in festive conditions are in my opinion those with a narrow base and a bulb at the tip, like the True Ames Squirrel cutaway and the FCS Fat Boy. I'm sure the design could be improved upon for SUP though, so it would be great to see what you and your testers could come up with on that general theme. I'm sure you wouldn't have trouble finding prototype testers on the zone here (including me!).
Nice to see you Area10, Let me finish this run down then I will come back to ask you a few questions. Now coming into more refined boards with fin box placement 8 to 15 inches from the tail this is one of the fastest selling fins for downwind in my line up. It's the Moray which is 8 1/2" in depth, but flexs small for release to give you the glide feel of a 6 1/2" fin. This fin only works well in a Fiber Glass Structure also for proper flexing. The beauty of this fin is it carries you thru the flats good and maneuvers the bump easily with good hold. This fin is a popular riding fin in the Gorge and Northwest coming off white cap peeks, along with good stability for the rider.
For you guys that like riding smaller depth fins my Dolphin JR fin is the popular fin which Infinity riders like. Dave B. runs this fin with Ventral Assist in flats and runs it single on bump riding where he has more power coming from behind pushing the tail. This Fiber Glass Structured fin at 7 1/2" in depth with 47 sq area has good bottom end with a tapered outline for good release which we have been using now.
Carbon Foam lightweight structure, which will be available soon, reacts pretty similar in performance to Fiber Glass which is why I designed this plan shape. Notice in the pic below where I laid the 7" Stealth Terrell from the early days over the JR Dolphin of today the leading front edge has alittle more fuller upright for Quick turning but still sheds weeds along with alittle more surface area in the trailing edge for added stability.
Then we get to the Aercor which guys call the Rudderless Keel. This fin has 2 different foil sections which act differently depending on the angle of attack of water flow. The front section has a 50/50 foil section for fast flow thru water with a 30/70 behind for turning.
When power is pushing you from behind water notices this fin outline and not the hole. When foot steering pressure is applied and you lean to turn now water sees the hole and because there is no resistance the fin reacts small and allows you to turn on a dime. When you come out of the turn and speed is built up the fin locks again going straight.
The trick to understand this fin is: If Mother Nature is pushing you from behind and little Paddle engagement is needed to maintain glide then the Aercor Fin is Magic. If you need to Paddle more to maintain glide then the JR Dolphin or Moray is the fin of choice.
The Unique design of the Aercore Fin is also why it is a good quick responding Wave riding fin compared to others.
"The trick to understand this fin is: If Mother Nature is pushing you from behind and little Paddle engagement is needed to maintain glide then the Aercor Fin is Magic. If you need to Paddle more to maintain glide then the JR Dolphin or Moray is the fin of choice."
It seems the general theme has been stability at the base with release at the tip except for the Aercor. Larry what dimension do you have for the trailing edge for that yellow Stealth? In your earlier pic it looks like 7" and the blue JT 9" - but not all the way to the bottom. The SIC 7.0 is around 7-3/4" measured perpendicular all the way to the bottom as shown. So the area of the 7.0 looks to be less than both the Stealth and JR Dolphin.
The Moray seems to be better for less wind -> and Aercor better for more wind. How does the Fat Boy (squirrel) fin solution play into the DW equation from your perspective?
Now I thought to share a peek at a new design I created at 7 1/2" deep for strong Downwind conditions made in a Fiber Glass Structure only because flex is super important in this outline and only one size. Because going larger in size makes this fin tip prominent and works against you and causes you to work against the fin and the water conditions, not a good situation to deal with.
Quote from: Eagle on January 05, 2017, 04:25:03 PM
"The trick to understand this fin is: If Mother Nature is pushing you from behind and little Paddle engagement is needed to maintain glide then the Aercor Fin is Magic. If you need to Paddle more to maintain glide then the JR Dolphin or Moray is the fin of choice."
It seems the general theme has been stability at the base with release at the tip except for the Aercor. Larry what dimension do you have for the trailing edge for that yellow Stealth? In your earlier pic it looks like 7" and the blue JT 9" - but not all the way to the bottom. The SIC 7.0 is around 7-3/4" measured perpendicular all the way to the bottom as shown. So the area of the 7.0 looks to be less than both the Stealth and JR Dolphin.
The Moray seems to be better for less wind -> and Aercor better for more wind. How does the Fat Boy (squirrel) fin solution play into the DW equation from your perspective?
The Yellow Stealth is 7" depth, My Blue Dolphin JR is 71/2" depth.
Quote from: Eagle on January 05, 2017, 04:25:03 PM
"The trick to understand this fin is: If Mother Nature is pushing you from behind and little Paddle engagement is needed to maintain glide then the Aercor Fin is Magic. If you need to Paddle more to maintain glide then the JR Dolphin or Moray is the fin of choice."
It seems the general theme has been stability at the base with release at the tip except for the Aercor. Larry what dimension do you have for the trailing edge for that yellow Stealth? In your earlier pic it looks like 7" and the blue JT 9" - but not all the way to the bottom. The SIC 7.0 is around 7-3/4" measured perpendicular all the way to the bottom as shown. So the area of the 7.0 looks to be less than both the Stealth and JR Dolphin.
The Moray seems to be better for less wind -> and Aercor better for more wind. How does the Fat Boy (squirrel) fin solution play into the DW equation from your perspective?
Both Fins Fatboy and Squirrel fins are surf related fins that work pretty good in a Fiber Glass Structure for flex. Honeycomb Structure of these fins would suck and act like a anchor.
Both of these fins are noseriding type designs where the board has alot of tail rocker and a smaller base allows you to turn quickly
with the large tip that acts great for hold so your board does not slide down the face of the wave when you step forward on your board to generate speed. Then when you are going into a turn the larger tip will flex slightly depending on how thin the foil is, when coming out of the turn the memory in the fiber glass structure will recoil back causing this type of fin to excelerate or snap out of the turn. I know from riding this style of fin from Harbour.
In a Standup World in mild conditions both these fins would aid in stability but as the conditions got stronger these fins would be ok but the depth would always be a negative to makeup for the narrow base line. So you would loose glide speed over shorter fins with larger baseline (Bottom End). So in answer to your question I would never use these 2 fins when their are better choices at my finger tips.
Quote from: Area 10 on January 05, 2017, 12:38:40 PM
Larry - I shouldn't think many people are using cutaway fins like that for downwinding: they work best in a 2+1 setup and all production DW boards that I know of are single fins. Although, I was actually considering ordering a custom DW board with a modified 2+1 setup, but that's another story...
The fins that work surprisingly well for DW in festive conditions are in my opinion those with a narrow base and a bulb at the tip, like the True Ames Squirrel cutaway and the FCS Fat Boy. I'm sure the design could be improved upon for SUP though, so it would be great to see what you and your testers could come up with on that general theme. I'm sure you wouldn't have trouble finding prototype testers on the zone here (including me!).
Area10, Do you know a guy Bryce Dyer n the UK. I will be sending some Probox Twins his way and can add a Aercore fin to save you some shipping costs. Let me know if you are interested my friend. Send me a PM. Mahalo
Quote from: dk78 on January 04, 2017, 12:11:55 AM
Quote from: yugi on January 03, 2017, 04:34:51 AM
Quote from: Eagle on January 02, 2017, 12:43:02 PM
...
Anyone that wants to turn on a DW needs to get a 7.0 fin. It saved me yesterday from a stall and broach because of its small size - yet gave me just enough directional stability. In the breezy side wind yesterday - I was going full power left but the board was mostly wanting to still go right. Not good if it is blowing you away from land. Did get the board to plane a bit so that was worth it. ;D
I concur with Eagle on the smaller fin.
A10,
recently you recommended a bigger fin for bigger conditions. What was with that? I'm in Eagles camp.
DK,
You got some fins to fiddle with the Rail26? Let us know what works for you. You are the turn master so I'd love to hear what you think.
For the last 4 years I have been using the Aercor from Larry Allison and Jeremy Riggs. It works great in all conditions, no drag at all and makes the board super loose on the bumps. Everyone who tries it says the best.
Thank you DK78 for the support and most importantly I am Happy you are Enjoying the Ride with the Aercor. Mahalo
Quote from: ProBox-Larry on January 05, 2017, 04:30:45 PM
Now I thought to share a peek at a new design I created at 7 1/2" deep for strong Downwind conditions made in a Fiber Glass Structure only because flex is super important in this outline and only one size. Because going larger in size makes this fin tip prominent and works against you and causes you to work against the fin and the water conditions, not a good situation to deal with.
Larry, what do you call this new fin? Some specs maybe? From what I can see it looks like something
I can really work with here on the river. Good base and hold to fight those nasty surface currents.
The Dolphin JR serves me very well in most cases but it has its limits, especially on my 24" board in winter conditions.
What do you think?
Those last few posts were very interesting Larry.....thanks for putting them up. The Moray fin would b great on my M14 I think. I've been using a Futures Californian to date.....it seems a good allrounder but wish it had a little more stability like the big Jimmy L Tracker fin...that's a beast.
I'd rather learn better balance and paddling skills so as not to not to need to rely on the fin and have a board which turns easier. I'll take all the help I can get to eek more turning out of a board and deal with my own stability and tracking. Both quickly learned if you put yourself to task. I always pick my equipment to help me with the hardest part.
Seems to me there's a basic tradeoff.
Larry,
I love click-ins. I'm a bit worried to use one on a DW however, just as an extra safety precaution. On a DW one would be so screwed if one lost a fin. Your thoughts/experience from customers? Are you still making classic versions or is everything click-in?
Any plans for a kind of "safety latch" with the click-ins? (for classic US box) Or something we can add to lock it? Specifically for the Aercor.
I do have/had quite a few fins which can be used for downwind.
Larry Allison
Aercor (for well formed swell and strong wind - difficult to bit that design)
Dolphin Pivot Jr. 47sqi
Dolphin Pivot 56 sqi (would not downwind this guy as it is too big)
Ninja (great fin to downwind a board with a lot of tail rocker)
I plan to use the Pivot and the Aercor this summer (when our inflows are back) with the Blackfish(es) and also put the ventral in the equation out of curiosity.
i.e. using the ventral to gain tracking in between the bumps with an Aercor
Also staying tuned for Larry's new fin design coming in the spring I believe.
VMG Mako 37 and 44
I do like these fins for boards with a pin tail and limited tail rocker (like a Bark Downwinder) or "round" bottoms and fin box far forward(like a fanatic falcon)
The 37 is good for down-winding, the 44 is good for marginal conditions and often feels a little bit big for down-winding
FCS
Connect Dolphin 9" and 10"(following DJ)
Fat Boy 10"(following Area10)
I will use these guys next summer with my Riviera DW. The board has a lot of rocker everywhere:
For me as a beginner, it is always a balance between a small fin that is unobtrusive when things are going and provide a smooth and fast ride and a larger/deeper fin that provide a better hold when things are not going, are more marginal and require more paddling. A 9" dolphin might be a middle of the road fin for the Riviera or the Fat Boy might be a revelation.
Quote from: yugi on January 06, 2017, 02:50:33 AM
I'd rather learn better balance and paddling skills so as not to not to need to rely on the fin and have a board which turns easier. I'll take all the help I can get to eek more turning out of a board and deal with my own stability and tracking. Both quickly learned if you put yourself to task. I always pick my equipment to help me with the hardest part.
Seems to me there's a basic tradeoff.
Larry,
I love click-ins. I'm a bit worried to use one on a DW however, just as an extra safety precaution. On a DW one would be so screwed if one lost a fin. Your thoughts/experience from customers? Are you still making classic versions or is everything click-in?
Any plans for a kind of "safety latch" with the click-ins? (for classic US box) Or something we can add to lock it? Specifically for the Aercor.
Yugi, Glad you asked about a Safety Feature. Yes my Click In Fins come with that option upon request. Came out with this feature almost a year ago. Especially for Inflatable Boards where the Fin Box walls flex because the fin box is on top of the surface this feature is a must. Click here for the video explaining that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV2Ea51bRdw
Interesting comment about working harder to ride a unstable board. Working harder due to stability also means you sacrifice speed, which means in a downwind situation you sacrifice maintaining the glide. I think you can spend energy working harder to improve technique then working harder to stay on top of your board. Just a thought my friend!
I offer screw and plate or Click It for Fiber Glas Fins, special structured fins are Click It only with safety feature option upon request.
a.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhMf_t5LuD0
b.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y455n3naUVY
c.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_mTJ3x4k-k
^ Awesome. Extra peace of mind. I'd seen the solution for Red Paddle.
I assume Aercore is available with this safety pin?
Re. Stability. Yes, of course, within reasonable limits of comfort.
thanks, nice !
Quote from: burchas on January 05, 2017, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: ProBox-Larry on January 05, 2017, 04:30:45 PM
Now I thought to share a peek at a new design I created at 7 1/2" deep for strong Downwind conditions made in a Fiber Glass Structure only because flex is super important in this outline and only one size. Because going larger in size makes this fin tip prominent and works against you and causes you to work against the fin and the water conditions, not a good situation to deal with.
Larry, what do you call this new fin? Some specs maybe? From what I can see it looks like something
I can really work with here on the river. Good base and hold to fight those nasty surface currents.
The Dolphin JR serves me very well in most cases but it has its limits, especially on my 24" board in winter conditions.
What do you think?
Burchas, I call the new fin "Spartan" Here is a review from Joel Yang in the Northwest Testing it out.
November 29, 2016 Review Quote by Joel Yang. ยท
A short while back, I had the chance to chat with Reid @standuppaddlemagazine
About this prototype that uncle @lafins made. From the spy pics to the conversations I was very intrigued.
Lord Viento finally decided to give us a short burst of wind during this eerily tranquil wind drought here and I had the privilege of demoing this prototype with my friend Bernie.
On the left is my all time favorite downwind fin. The Larry Allison GT Moray. It just works right in DW conditions for me. On the right is the new Proto.
The new Proto fin doesn't look faster, nor does it scream high performance. Since I'm a total geargeek, I'll demo everything.
It's amazing how you can look at something and believe you understand it and know what it'll do and you're wrong. I love it when this happens.
The fin handled amazing. There was something very different about the way it made my board handle... I was able to catch mushy bumps and connect them... This included wallbump, and cross chop.... Those of you that know me, know that I'm far from graceful abd have a bit of this bulldozer style so I'm not light on my feet, so having those sprocking cat like ninja skills isn't on my resume. Many times when I typically stall out due to not being at the right sweet spot when I get hit with side mash, I often brace, wait till it passes, then resume. This time round I was very pleasantly surprised... I was able to brace out, counter balance, and keep going.....and keep connecting in mushy conditions.......
Thank you Lord Viento for turning it on so that I could get this little window of falling back in love with downwinding again. Thank you Reid for getting me all fired up on this not so fast looking proto. Thank you uncle Larry for the privilege to constantly demo new fingeekness. Whacky looking fin.....I can't wait till it fires up again so we can go out and have more awesome experiences together.
Quote from: burchas on January 05, 2017, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: ProBox-Larry on January 05, 2017, 04:30:45 PM
Now I thought to share a peek at a new design I created at 7 1/2" deep for strong Downwind conditions made in a Fiber Glass Structure only because flex is super important in this outline and only one size. Because going larger in size makes this fin tip prominent and works against you and causes you to work against the fin and the water conditions, not a good situation to deal with.
Larry, what do you call this new fin? Some specs maybe? From what I can see it looks like something
I can really work with here on the river. Good base and hold to fight those nasty surface currents.
The Dolphin JR serves me very well in most cases but it has its limits, especially on my 24" board in winter conditions.
What do you think?
Burchas, Here is another review by Reid Inouye of Standup Paddle Magazine riding the Allison "Spartan" fin in Hawaiian waters.
Reid is the rider on the smaller board behind Eric on the bigger board.
Reid Inouye comment:
Finally got to take this 12'6" Indigo-SUP.com Tiger out on a quick run. 12'6"x28x6"x24lbs. Combined with this Larry W. Allison fin that arrived just before I headed down to the beach, I have to say, even though the winds dropped to 20-25mph, this set up was hauling ass. Took a full inside line right outside the surf and I got some really good dot connectors with ease. Liked the way this board hopped the little 2' bumps and connections and I was surprised on the feel of the fin. In fact I've never ridden a fin as foiled and clean as this one. No fat bead on the front edge and really thin as compared to most fins on the market today. Thanks again Raul Ruiz, Delfos Almagro at Indigo and fin-legend Larry W. Allison for the insane foiled fin. Keep sending more boards and fins. hahaha.
Below, Is a pic of Reid's board and Spartan Fin used to do the Downwind run in Hawaii the top pic.
Thanks Larry, I'm all over this. Care to share some specs and what's the concept behind the fin?
I really do like my Dolphin JR but I can see where something like the Spartan can come handy.
Quote from: burchas on January 06, 2017, 09:55:40 AM
Thanks Larry, I'm all over this. Care to share some specs and what's the concept behind the fin?
I really do like my Dolphin JR but I can see where something like the Spartan can come handy.
The Spartan concept came in my mind the same way I created the Gladiator Fin in 2011 for the guy in Texas. I was watching TV and seen a commercial about the Movie Spartan and the helmet stuck in my mind. So I took the common size in depth that I know what works and added my rake of choice then started the transformation. The one thing here is this only works in Fiber Glass Structure where twist off flex is KEY to Performance, I learned and confirmed this with my fall out of the Gladiator Brand guy who took the Gladiator Fin concept overseas and changes the Structure from Fiber Glass to Carbon/ Honeycomb.
Quote from: burchas on January 06, 2017, 09:55:40 AM
Thanks Larry, I'm all over this. Care to share some specs and what's the concept behind the fin?
I really do like my Dolphin JR but I can see where something like the Spartan can come handy.
I would love to hear this.
Also when will the fin be available.
The Spartan Fin on the left is a Sup Specific. The Spartan Fin on the right is a Longboard Surf Specific Fin not intended to be used on a Sup Board.
"In a Standup World in mild conditions both these fins would aid in stability but as the conditions got stronger these fins would be ok but the depth would always be a negative to makeup for the narrow base line. So you would loose glide speed over shorter fins with larger baseline (Bottom End). So in answer to your question I would never use these 2 fins when their are better choices at my finger tips."
My experience is that bigger and longer fins generate a lot of drag. Even the SIC 8.3 stalls going across a wave. Bigger fins like the Hybrid stall even more DW. And we have gone over this. So it seems if balance is not an issue - then a fin like the SIC 7.0 or the small version Aercor would perform well. I know firsthand the 7.0 is very hard to stall - and this fin is so far the best and fastest fin I have ever used. The small Aercor does look interesting though for my AS23 Larry. Probs the 7.0 for less wind and small Aercor for more wind. That should cover ok. For me -> speed is crucial to connect bumps. ;)
^ please describe in what situations your fin "stalls" and what is the effect.
Are you spinning out?
Quote from: ProBox-Larry on January 06, 2017, 10:01:57 AM
Quote from: burchas on January 06, 2017, 09:55:40 AM
Thanks Larry, I'm all over this. Care to share some specs and what's the concept behind the fin?
I really do like my Dolphin JR but I can see where something like the Spartan can come handy.
The Spartan concept came in my mind the same way I created the Gladiator Fin in 2011 for the guy in Texas. I was watching TV and seen a commercial about the Movie Spartan and the helmet stuck in my mind. So I took the common size in depth that I know what works and added my rake of choice then started the transformation. The one thing here is this only works in Fiber Glass Structure where twist off flex is KEY to Performance, I learned and confirmed this with my fall out of the Gladiator Brand guy who took the Gladiator Fin concept overseas and changes the Structure from Fiber Glass to Carbon/ Honeycomb.
So you're saying its a derivative of the Gladiator fin? what's the specs though, give some geek stuff please.
Quote from: Eagle on January 06, 2017, 10:32:12 AM
"In a Standup World in mild conditions both these fins would aid in stability but as the conditions got stronger these fins would be ok but the depth would always be a negative to makeup for the narrow base line. So you would loose glide speed over shorter fins with larger baseline (Bottom End). So in answer to your question I would never use these 2 fins when their are better choices at my finger tips."
My experience is that bigger and longer fins generate a lot of drag. Even the SIC 8.3 stalls going across a wave. Bigger fins like the Hybrid stall even more DW. And we have gone over this. So it seems if balance is not an issue - then a fin like the SIC 7.0 or the small version Aercor would perform well. I know firsthand the 7.0 is very hard to stall - and this fin is so far the best and fastest fin I have ever used. The small Aercor does look interesting though for my AS23 Larry. Probs the 7.0 for less wind and small Aercor for more wind. That should cover ok. For me -> speed is crucial to connect bumps. ;)
"My experience is that bigger and longer fins generate a lot of drag" Correct!!!!! Longer fins Key Word Added Drag, but also depends on Structure Make up and release by plan shape, bigger by surface area can be created without drag. As for a Hybrid Fin in Downwind never in my world maybe in the Sup Gladiator World.
Quote from: burchas on January 06, 2017, 10:43:59 AM
Quote from: ProBox-Larry on January 06, 2017, 10:01:57 AM
Quote from: burchas on January 06, 2017, 09:55:40 AM
Thanks Larry, I'm all over this. Care to share some specs and what's the concept behind the fin?
I really do like my Dolphin JR but I can see where something like the Spartan can come handy.
The Spartan concept came in my mind the same way I created the Gladiator Fin in 2011 for the guy in Texas. I was watching TV and seen a commercial about the Movie Spartan and the helmet stuck in my mind. So I took the common size in depth that I know what works and added my rake of choice then started the transformation. The one thing here is this only works in Fiber Glass Structure where twist off flex is KEY to Performance, I learned and confirmed this with my fall out of the Gladiator Brand guy who took the Gladiator Fin concept overseas and changes the Structure from Fiber Glass to Carbon/ Honeycomb.
So you're saying its a derivative of the Gladiator fin? what's the specs though, give some geek stuff please.
No the Spartan fin is not a derivative of the Gladiator Fin. The Gladiator fin is a derivative of the Everpaddle fin I produced in 2010 for Everpaddle. When I was contacted by The Sup Gladiator in 2011 to design a Beginner or Survival Fin to fit his program, I took this fin from Everpaddle and took the Eyes of the Gladiator Helmet added the Gladiator Eye shape on the top 3rd section of the Everpaddle bottom 2 3rd section and Bingo the Elite Gladiator fin was born. Then as requested I reduced the Elite size to multiple sizes down, which is how I became aware of the changes that started occur by the smaller sizes with the larger tip creating the governor feel.
Larry - Haha! Yeah we discussed this before. Do it for a challenge nowadays. Even trickier using the Gladiator Elite. But you will have to send me another PM when you are ready to ship the new small Aercor.
Quote from: Eagle on December 29, 2016, 05:46:25 PM
Hi Larry - stall to me is when the fin starts to cavitate. When on a wave either surfing across a wave on a SUP - or sailing a boat with an overly amount of heel angle - the fin or rudder starts to get bubbles around it. It is a very distinct feeling. On a board I feel the board slow and want to broach (or flip over). When this happens you have a few seconds to correct the problem. What I do is step back and weight the rail that wants to flip over and straighten the board down the wave vs across. This eliminates the stall by re-attaching water flow around the fin - getting rid of the bubbles. The board speeds up - and the wave behind stays behind or flows harmlessly by.
The time a stall and broach most often happens is when you go slower than the speed of the wave. You should always try to be moving forward of the waves and jumping to the waves ahead. You get zero stall and zero broach if you keep the board angled across and down waves properly. With a small fin the wave pushing from behind slips by vs with a big fin it catches and flips you over. Normally I feel a stall when surfing too much across a wave and not down enough. Just power up down the wave and you should be good. ;)
yugi - this was my response when someone asked me. I think you were part of that thread as well. But no spin out though. Easy to correct if you catch it in time. Happens all the time using a big tracking fin like the Hybrid or Elite. Very fun but tricky to handle. Do this all the time so when I use the 7.0 it is easy peasy. ;)
Quote from: burchas on January 06, 2017, 10:43:59 AM
Quote from: ProBox-Larry on January 06, 2017, 10:01:57 AM
Quote from: burchas on January 06, 2017, 09:55:40 AM
Thanks Larry, I'm all over this. Care to share some specs and what's the concept behind the fin?
I really do like my Dolphin JR but I can see where something like the Spartan can come handy.
The Spartan concept came in my mind the same way I created the Gladiator Fin in 2011 for the guy in Texas. I was watching TV and seen a commercial about the Movie Spartan and the helmet stuck in my mind. So I took the common size in depth that I know what works and added my rake of choice then started the transformation. The one thing here is this only works in Fiber Glass Structure where twist off flex is KEY to Performance, I learned and confirmed this with my fall out of the Gladiator Brand guy who took the Gladiator Fin concept overseas and changes the Structure from Fiber Glass to Carbon/ Honeycomb.
So you're saying its a derivative of the Gladiator fin? what's the specs though, give some geek stuff please.
I wanted to answer in 2 different replies to avoid confusion About Gladiator and Spartan Fin.
In looking at the 2 different boards one with the Moray and the other with the Spartan. The Morey is 8 1/2" deep with 39 sq inch surface area. The Spartan is 7 1/2" deep with 50 sq inch surface area. The surfy feel of the Morey isn't always good in powerful downwind situations. The Spartan having a good bottom end (Base of fin) of 7 1/2" will hold lateral power as Joel talks about in his review earlier in this tread. Flex plays a big role to release as Reid talks about in his review which the Spartan has a nice "S" flex in Fiber Glas Structure only! I hope this helps you understand the Spartan Fin better.
Quote from: Luc Benac on January 06, 2017, 10:02:19 AM
Quote from: burchas on January 06, 2017, 09:55:40 AM
Thanks Larry, I'm all over this. Care to share some specs and what's the concept behind the fin?
I really do like my Dolphin JR but I can see where something like the Spartan can come handy.
I would love to hear this.
Also when will the fin be available.
Luc, The Spartan fin will be in final stages going into Production by end of this month. Just want to compare more feed back for proper data and see if I need to do any tweaks. Mahalo
Slight change of fin direction ....on the sort of pulled in tail on my M14 ....does any particular fin work better than others...as opposed to having a a big boxy tail like on my x27 Allstar?
Quote from: coldsup on January 06, 2017, 12:53:02 PM
Slight change of fin direction ....on the sort of pulled in tail on my M14 ....does any particular fin work better than others...as opposed to having a a big boxy tail like on my x27 Allstar?
Good Question coldsup, The JR Dolphin first pick then Spartan. Wider tail needs more surface area fin not by depth, these 2 fins are both 7 1/2" deep. Morey on your M14. You can ride the Morey on your Starboard with existing fin box that is further back than normal at approx. 6 1/2" I believe.
These 3 fins work ok on my M14. a) OEM JL Tracker in glass - slow drawn out turns and has a tendency to stall - speed is slow b) OEM SB Race Ultra in Hexcel - med drawn out turns and has less tendency to stall - speed is med c) OEM SIC 7.0 in carbon - fast immediate turns and has very small tendency to stall - speed is fast
My preference is the 7.0 for fast turns and fast speed on the M14. Stability is a 100% non-issue as stalling for me is more of concern. Often we need to go way left/right as our DW routes are not simple easy straight DW lines. But it all comes down to how fast you want to turn vs how much stability/stall/broach you are willing to compromise. If you slowly transition from a big fin to a small one - and know and feel exactly how that big fin performs - when you switch to a smaller one you can adapt very easily if balance is not an issue. But definitely practice on a big tracker fin so you can feel and correct the stall when it happens. Interestingly I have not used any medium fins in really quite a long while. Probs though the small little Aercor would work in this board as well. Hmmm?
Second pic is the SIC 8.3 carbon vs the Gladiator Hybrid glass tracking fin. These fins work ok DW - but can and do stall. So use with caution. Both are ok as long as you stay ahead of the bump though. The big area at the tip of the Hybrid seems to limit speed potential. ;)
Nice Eagle :)
Thanks Larry and Eagle......I've not actually tried the Starby fin in the M14 as yet....will give it a go.
The Starby fin has a little more rake, base and tip than the Cali....so might be worth a go. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170107/9337960bf0a0866b115e5792acfcfcb2.jpg)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It seems like you have a number of fins coldsup. The Race Ultra to me was a slow med fin. It had quite good hold which correlates to more stall. Was ok - but too slow in turning and too slow for speed.
Sounds if you need stability you will need to either deal with more stall or slower speed. So probs would try the GT Moray. That fin has stability at the base and release at the tip. Send Larry a PM and see what he can arrange for you. He maybe can get it to you for a reasonable price. Cheers mate. :)
BTW. I have no affiliation with Larry or any brand manufacturer or retailer supplier or distributor. I buy my stuff from CL or full price or on sale. I am not sponsored and all my reviews and comments have zero servant master relationships. I kinda like it like that. So I can post what I want.
yugi - have to say that even though the Dom is superfluous -> it is a fantastic board. Just finished a paddle and it performed like a champ. Super stable with the SIC 7.0 with no worries at all falling in. Also tried the paddle wrist connector and that worked ok as well. Not perfect but probs will use it. Temp was 1C and wind about 10 kts with gusts to 15 hiding behind the point. Super beautiful out there. So serene. The deep vee just cuts so clean compared to splashy surf noses. No way a surf nose Rail 26.5 can keep up.
^ I've been on a Dominator a lot. Nice board, I hear you. Good allround. Have done downwinders too. Works actually very well.
Honestly, somewhere between 10-15 knots I think the Rail may begin to get a bit of an edge. If that forecast had actually materialised I'd probably rather have been on a Rail.
It's all good. A downwind board is best in downwinds and is just fine for flats, a Dominator is best for flats and just fine for downwinders. You know what my priorities are and what I'm saying. Funnily, you probably get big wind more regularly than I do.
Nice Stunsail tack bend. Not a lot of people know that knot.
Actually the wind posted was not a forecast - but true windspeed taken just a few miles up the inlet in the pic - at a weather station location. Where I was - the wind dissipates a bit but is still in open water. Great in that you can duck and hide for cover but have only one chance. You gotta paddle at 90 to the wind.
Yeah as a sailor the buntline is a fantastic knot I use all the time - second only to the bowline. Being true to my 2017 resolution - am making it a point to ride all my boards instead of just the AS23. So far so good. My initial plan was to grab the AS23 - but the Dominator wanted to play in the waves today. It actually was great fun - as I could completely relax and enjoy the ride and surroundings vs being on edge on the AS23. ie. probs would not have taken the pics on the AS23.
That GTX drysuit has been the ticket. No more concerns about getting cold and wet if I happened to get dunked. And 100% completely sweat free. Super happy about that - and now have major security with that paddle wrist connector. So all is sorted and good for cold temps. My friend with the Eradicator 25 quad setup saw me as I was starting out - and I think he said I was nuts to go out. Haha. ;D
yugi - here is a better pic of the waves out there. It was not docile conditions. I could only hold position into the wind for about 5 sec before being blown 90. You can see the wind ripples. There was a pretty high chance I could have dropped my cellphone. I had to leave it splashing on the deck as I paddled to get the shot. Awesome phone - as I was playing Pink Floyd the whole time paddling and while taking shots. Haha. :)
Eagle. Great to see some shots of your area. I've downwinded the Dominator as a rental in Long Island and was surprised how good it was.
Man have we had thread creep here, but all good stuff... so here's a shot of the run where this thread started at our 1st rendezvous point. 2 of us got up on the rocks with our boards to look for one paddler who had not turned up... a longer story, but worth a different post.. It turned out all okay but got us scared... And for Burchas, a picture of that SIC dugout for you in the foreground...
Quote from: Off-Shore on January 07, 2017, 09:20:16 PM
Eagle. Great to see some shots of your area. I've downwinded the Dominator as a rental in Long Island and was surprised how good it was.
Man have we had thread creep here, but all good stuff... so here's a shot of the run where this thread started at our 1st rendezvous point. 2 of us got up on the rocks with our boards to look for one paddler who had not turned up... a longer story, but worth a different post.. It turned out all okay but got us scared... And for Burchas, a picture of that SIC dugout for you in the foreground...
Thanks for the teaser off-shore. Knowing you, I'm sure the dessert is coming real soon ;)
Quote from: burchas on January 07, 2017, 10:07:43 PM
Thanks for the teaser off-shore. Knowing you, I'm sure the dessert is coming real soon ;)
Burchas... Ha... you may want to take a look at this....
https://youtu.be/z7zu9djKots
Quote from: Off-Shore on January 08, 2017, 03:44:06 AM
Quote from: burchas on January 07, 2017, 10:07:43 PM
Thanks for the teaser off-shore. Knowing you, I'm sure the dessert is coming real soon ;)
Burchas... Ha... you may want to take a look at this....
https://youtu.be/z7zu9djKots
Yes, saw that one making the rounds for a while. Is it on your list?
BTW, what's the width of the SIC? and how did it feel to you?
The SIC reminds me the pics PBill posted a long time ago
Burchas. I have not yet paddled the SIC dugout but will aim to give it a go when I'm next out with the guy who paddles it. I think it is 24" wide and I imagine it will be a little tricky for me!
If this board is anything like mine, which looks like it is, at 14x24 and sitting 3" closer to the
water, I imagine you'll do fine based on how you rode my board. Keep us posted.