Standup Zone Forum

I am now wearing a Personal Flotation Device all the time; after a recent very bad experience of not wearing one.

Though I wanting to a PFD that is less intrusive when paddling.

I want something that is comfortable, but also reliable when needed.

I was thinking of getting PFD' belt pack that inflates with a CO2 cartridge when the strap is pulled.   

Though I would hate to fall in the water and need to have it inflated and the thing does not work.   So are there models that give some type of indicate that it is working and will inflate when needed????

Also, now that I always wear a safety leash, I am hoping I won't have to totally rely on PED's device much.    So my question is if these belt pack PED's get wet (from me falling off my board), but I don't inflate it, will it be damaged and may not work properly the next time????

And does anyone have recommendations fro just less intrusive life-vest that is good for paddling?

I view belt pack PFDs as mostly useful to keep the river patrol from giving me tickets. The least intrusive useful PFD I've found is the Vaikobi. It's Australian I think, and its rated type 5 which means it's mostly a swim aid. But I think it's pretty good. Doesn't interfere with getting back on the board, gets me to the surface quickly and it's comfortable. I can swim reasonably well with it, though it's a lot slower than without. I find belt packs are like an anchor for swimming and camelbacks aren't much better.

All of the inflatable belt pack PFDs also have a manual inflation tube if for some reason the CO2 doesn't activate. I've actually gone through the exercise of inflating one while in the water both with CO2 and manually. Pretty easy to do. Getting them wet does no damage. Truthfully most of the time I don't even engage the CO2 bottle and have the beltpack pushed around to my back when I have to wear one (same reason Pono gives...I don't want a ticket). With a leash it's less likely you'll ever need it. Pushed around to my back I forget its even there until I try and get in my truck. I have a few of the MTI belt backs and got my granddaughter one of their kids PFDs...great stuff all around. They have a few models that are made SUP specific for more freedom of motion with how we paddle.
https://www.mtiadventurewear.com/products/sup

Very nice folks too...long time sponsor of the CCBC.

O'Neill Gooru vest.  I wear mine in the surf 100% of time under wetsuit

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00QLN1L4O/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472660936&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=gooru+vest

I think it will depend what problem you are trying to solve.  You mention a bad experience, so I assume that's what you want to prevent - whatever it was. 

I have a belt pack for the ticketing reason.  I've never tried inflating it, but from pictures, it looks very cumbersome when inflated, like it would be hard to do anything much except float.  I think it is only useful when all else fails. 

I have a regular PFD that is comfortable and I can do whatever I want with it on, so it is useful if I want reliable flotation in more normal situations.  I use when I'm more worried about falling in, like in cold water. 

Keeping an eye on this product which looks interesting:

http://www.hyde-sportswear.com/pages/home-2

Quote from: PonoBill on August 31, 2016, 08:23:41 AM
I view belt pack PFDs as mostly useful to keep the river patrol from giving me tickets. The least intrusive useful PFD I've found is ...

... is the Restube

Also (and I believe mostly) useful as an awesome "woohoo, see me please" device. Which is useful to have with you.

If you need a jacket type PFD use an impact vest.

We use the Stearns SUP inflatable belt pack PFD...very well made and unobtrusive...$89.95

http://supsports.com/shop/sup-schwag/gear/stearns-belt-pack-pfd/

If the OP had that bad of an experience I don't  know if a belt pack pfd is right for him.  Most belt packs require you to have the wherewithal to pull the lanyard, then put your head in the thing and buckle it up around you.  All while treading water or holding your breath. Or even blowing it up manually if for some reason it fails to inflate.  Dakine has a very slim belt pack pfd out now that inflates like a swimmers torpedo across the front of you, and it's very low profile.  bmeehan, if you go with a belt pack make sure you waste at least one sir cartridge learning how to use it, in water (over you head).  Some of the full on PFDs that surfski ears use, like Vaicobi or Mocke, are low profile and easy to paddle in. 

Is there a pic of the Stearns inflated?

I'm not a fan of the inflatable type of PFDs. I don't want to find out the CO2 cartridge won't inflate the PFD when it is needed. It is a trust issue with me. I'm sort of leaning towards the Vaicobi or Mocke type PFDs since our water temperature in the summer out in the surf zone on the upper Texas coast is anywhere between 85-90 degrees F.

Quote from: SeldomScene on August 31, 2016, 11:05:17 AM
Is there a pic of the Stearns inflated?

I think this is the same model:

(https://www.paddlesurfwarehouse.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/1000x1000/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/t/sterns-sospenders-pfd-fully-inflated-e1425324704479.jpg)

I prefer the Onyx, but they all have limitations.

Quote from: SeldomScene on August 31, 2016, 11:05:17 AM
Is there a pic of the Stearns inflated?

A couple better pics of it inflated...
The waist worn pouch has a nylon enclosure surrounding the flotation bladder that pops open the Velcro as the CO2 canister fills the bladder by pulling the cord...there is also an oral inflation tube...the neck strap is then placed around the back of the head and adjusted...pretty simple and straightforward...

Quote from: SUPsports on August 31, 2016, 03:12:59 PM

A couple better pics of it inflated...
The waist worn pouch has a nylon enclosure surrounding the flotation bladder that pops open the Velcro as the CO2 canister fills the bladder by pulling the cord...there is also an oral inflation tube...the neck strap is then placed around the back of the head and adjusted...pretty simple and straightforward...

I picked up one of these Stearns in the US this summer, and like it a lot due to the smaller size to my MTI one for regular paddling and racing. There is also a small zippered pocket on it that can fit a pack or two of gel which I like.

The one I have used for last 3 years is the MTI Fluid Waist Pack Inflatable PFD Life Vest (see pic below) which is more bulky, but does have the added advantage that the inflated portion also goes around the neck, and so this is my preferred choice when I am 1-2 miles (1.6 - 3.2kms) off shore in the ocean. I can also fit energy bars etc inside the bag easily which you cannot with the Stearns one

I always give the pfd a rinse in fresh water every time I use them. If I did not fall in the water, I just rinse the outside to get rid of sweat etc, as they start to smell after a time. If I've fallen in the water, then I open up the pack, rinse and hang up to dry before re-packing before use. The Stearns one is real easy to do this to, as it is just a roll, whereas the MTI one is a little more complicated to refold up. I also check that the CO2 cylinder is properly connected and the unit is "armed".

I also travel with these and put them in my check-in luggage, with the CO2 canisters connected (i.e. "armed"). So far I have had no issues from airlines. I'd also recommend getting spare cylinders with you in case you use the pfd or it gets inflated by a mistake. It is important to take care about the small "pull cord" that dangles out the back of these. Usually when travelling I tuck the pull cord into the bag so it cannot get caught in anything, and pull it out before I wear it. I once sat down on a slatted wooden dock after paddling and the pull cord T handle managed to lodge itself into the gap between two slats and when I stood up, "WHOOSH", and the pfd was inflated.  ;D

If you are going out in gnarly conditions, then I recommend a full kayaking or surfski type PFD. Fiddling with a pull cord, having to switch the belt around from your back to the front may be just too much in an emergency situation

I had an experience earlier this year where I took a tumble off my board and smacked my ribs on the rail. Very, very painful. I was wearing a waist belt which of course didn't offer any protection at all for my ribs. After recommendations from another Zoner (I think it was Eagle???) I purchased a Kokatat Orbit PFD. It is low profile and not obtrusive at all. I now wear it every time out. Was a great investment!


https://kokatat.com/product/orbit-tour-pfd-lvuobt

Plus 1 on a couple of comments:
With the Sterns, I have forgotten I was wearing it, until I got in my vehicle.
Rinse the outside always.  If it got wet inside, rinse and let dry.

Additionally, I've never heard of anyone getting stopped for wearing the belt pack backwards.  I actually keep the tap inside.  Yeah, I don't have immediate access.  But, I figure it has less chance of accidentally inflating.

Quote from: Quickbeam on August 31, 2016, 05:33:36 PM
I had an experience earlier this year where I took a tumble off my board and smacked my ribs on the rail. Very, very painful. I was wearing a waist belt which of course didn't offer any protection at all for my ribs. After recommendations from another Zoner (I think it was Eagle???) I purchased a Kokatat Orbit PFD. It is low profile and not obtrusive at all. I now wear it every time out. Was a great investment!

https://kokatat.com/product/orbit-tour-pfd-lvuobt

Yeah that Orbit works a charm for a fully approved PFD.  Used it all the time when first learning to ride the AS23.  When I wear that PFD my level of confidence goes way up because if I happen to fall off - there is very little risk of drowning.  The Orbit provides some core warmth and protection from injury as well - as QB rightly notes.

Much higher level of safety than just a waist PFD.  Noticed that the Mustang we use - inflates to go right over your head - unlike some other inflatables.  This should keep your head afloat.  Our harness inflatables remove this donning step.  The TC requirements are different than USCG - and many US PFDs are not TC approved.

The CO2 cartridge does deploy the airbag fine - and it is a good idea to check that the green mark is visible.  We make it so the pull tab just sticks out making it harder to pull by accident.  Did have a small boy pull one dangling - and he was so scared by the big bang - he thought he triggered a bomb!

But always feel super safe and secure wearing a full PFD and proper strong leash in rough conditions.  I have no doubts at all the Orbit will always keep me properly afloat - and not ever floating face down.

Quote from: Off-Shore on August 31, 2016, 05:01:43 PM

If you are going out in gnarly conditions, then I recommend a full kayaking or surfski type PFD. Fiddling with a pull cord, having to switch the belt around from your back to the front may be just too much in an emergency situation

I agree with you Off-Shore, we generally only take PFDs out when we feel the need i.e. we are taking them as a safety devices not just for compliance (generally not an issue here).  That generally means conditions where if the leash broke  you are going to need a buoyancy aid.  The idea of trying to inflate and rely on a belt PFD in this situation is questionable.

Quote from: Quickbeam on August 31, 2016, 05:33:36 PM
I had an experience earlier this year where I took a tumble off my board and smacked my ribs on the rail. Very, very painful. I was wearing a waist belt which of course didn't offer any protection at all for my ribs. After recommendations from another Zoner (I think it was Eagle???) I purchased a Kokatat Orbit PFD. It is low profile and not obtrusive at all. I now wear it every time out. Was a great investment!

https://kokatat.com/product/orbit-tour-pfd-lvuobt

I've been there myself.  In a recent downwind race, running hard against a friend we nasty situation where his board landed on the back of mine and I took a knock to the head.  Totally screwed my balance and I struggle to get the board in through the overhead break.  Its got me thinking that bad stuff can happen out there and really I need a PFD that WILL float me if go into the water feeling less then 100%

Quote from: Kaihoe on August 31, 2016, 07:58:11 PM

I've been there myself.  In a recent downwind race, running hard against a friend we nasty situation where his board landed on the back of mine and I took a knock to the head.  Totally screwed my balance and I struggle to get the board in through the overhead break.  Its got me thinking that bad stuff can happen out there and really I need a PFD that WILL float me if go into the water feeling less then 100%

Yep. If you have ever taken a knock from falling on your own board (I have too) or being hit by other boards in gnarly conditions, having that immediate buoyancy of a proper pfd is good and preferable. 

Have you tried swimming any distance in these pfds? The shortcoming of some of these PFDs is that it is pretty much impossible to do so. So it will keep you afloat for sure, but you aren't going anywhere. Whereas if you are wearing something like an impact vest, you can swim in it, and it also provides some buoyancy. It's a tricky one. Ideally I think, they'd be an impact vest that also had an inflatable component if you chose to deploy it. Is there such a thing? My most likely scenario would be a leash break on a downwinder in eg. 35 knots, with a mile or two to swim to shore. I could probably do that if my life depended on it. But not in a full pfd and wetsuit (I SUP cold waters). I'm not sure of want to be just bobbing in the water waiting for someone to answer my PLB. I think I'd rather activate the PLB and also be slowly making my way shorewards swimming, which doesn't seem possible in some full PFDs. Does anyone have experience of swimming in one in rough seas?

Quote from: Area 10 on August 31, 2016, 09:57:05 PM
Have you tried swimming any distance in these pfds? The shortcoming of some of these PFDs is that it is pretty much impossible to do so. So it will keep you afloat for sure, but you aren't going anywhere. Whereas if you are wearing something like an impact vest, you can swim in it, and it also provides some buoyancy. It's a tricky one. Ideally I think, they'd be an impact vest that also had an inflatable component if you chose to deploy it. Is there such a thing? My most likely scenario would be a leash break on a downwinder in eg. 35 knots, with a mile or two to swim to shore. I could probably do that if my life depended on it. But not in a full pfd and wetsuit (I SUP cold waters). I'm not sure of want to be just bobbing in the water waiting for someone to answer my PLB. I think I'd rather activate the PLB and also be slowly making my way shorewards swimming, which doesn't seem possible in some full PFDs. Does anyone have experience of swimming in one in rough seas?

I agree with all that.  Early on, I used to paddle with an impact vest I'd found, until I realized it didn't qualify as a legal PFD.  I could have swum in it easily--it was basically a vest wetsuit.  It had the added benefit of providing good insulation, which PFDs don't since they're not snug.  So I'd gladly trade the full flotation of a pfd for the vest's swim-friendliness, comfort and insulation. 

That's another argument against PFD regulations. There's a whole realm of possibilities/combinations of garments or devices that would provide flotation or flotation with insulation (and maybe even add hydration) but the legal requirements skew them entirely towards full flotation to the detriment of everything else, including convenience.  One I remember being posted once was a wrist-mounted (I think) inflatable float.  A line kept it connected to you, and you could grab onto it or throw it, and it would be easy to swim with, but since you couldn't wear it, it wasn't a legal PFD.  With less strict PFD regulations, you'd get more responses from people who've swum in impact vests or other alternatives to standard PFDs.

Ironic--PFDs interfere with swimming, the most basic method of rescuing yourself in water.  They also make it more likely you'll need rescuing, because they can create the slowness that makes the difference between catching up to your board if your leash breaks, and watching it get blown away out of reach.

A properly fitted PFD IS snug. If it isn't snug, you're not wearing it right. The offerings from Kokatat, Stohlquist, Astral, and the one that PonoBill referenced are the way to go. 

If you paddle in cold water, without a PFD or wetsuit/drysuit, the statistics are not in your favor if your leash breaks and you are far from shore. (Or even near shore if the water is cold enough and the paddler is unprotected.)

The suggestion that a PFD hinders your swimming speed is most likely true, though I haven't tested it. However, wearing a PFD significantly decreases your risk of drowning if faced with a long swim, especially if the paddler is injured and can't swim after their board. Anyone remember the video DJ posted of his board blowing away?

The new MTI Fluid 2.0 is a lot more streamlined. Unless I'm in gnarly conditions I can't see wearing anything but a beltpack...if it wasn't for the rules I wouldn't even do that. I always wear a good leash.

I love my Restube for racing - it's by far the most compact pfd out there: http://www.restube-usa.com/#!shop/i5tjp

There's also the Quatic inflatable rashguard: http://quaticapparel.com/products/inflatable-rashguard

Most of the devices mentioned are not USCG approved, making them a poor choice for anyone in the USA.  Why bother when there are USCG approved options?

The Sterns seems tiny and I can't believe just a 'Restube like floaty' is actually certified.

My West Marine aka Onyx M16 is smaller and unnoticeable.  I recently got reprimanded for not having a PFD, I had to say "yes I do!".

(http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o567/mootrail/_1_zpswye9bhye.jpg) (http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o567/mootrail/a_zpser7zrasf.jpg)

Can't believe this one got certified either.  Positively tiny on and just a big pillow with a strap on top you toss over your head.

Swimming wise, backstroking is no problem, but I'd just flip the strap off and side stroke my home.

The Stearns...like most of the belt pack PFDs  that we have carried in our store over the years...is USCG approved Type V PFD...with Type III buoyancy at full inflation...this means 22.0#  (100 Newtons) of buoyancy at full inflation...

Most adults only need an extra seven to twelve pounds of buoyancy to keep their heads above water. A PFD can give that "extra lift," and it's made to keep you floating until help comes.

https://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5214/pfdselection.asp

Here is a link to an interesting article about the new rating system that is being adapted...

Like the ISO standard, the new North American standard will use performance levels based on the buoyancy of the device, with Level 50, Level 100, Level 150, and Level 275 designations. Also included will be a Level 70 standard, to account for the millions of old type II and III devices that had 15.5# of buoyancy, or 70 Newtons. So, instead of shopping for a Type I, II, or III, you'll soon be shopping for a Level 50, 70, 100, or 150 life jacket. Oh, and the good news in all of this is that the term "personal flotation device" is also being retired, at least in the U.S. The more common term, lifejacket, will be how the industry and Coast Guard refers to these devices in the future.

https://saf.cruisingclub.org/news/2015/safety-moment-lifejacket-changes-june-3-2015

Quote from: Area 10 on August 31, 2016, 09:57:05 PM
Have you tried swimming any distance in these pfds? The shortcoming of some of these PFDs is that it is pretty much impossible to do so. So it will keep you afloat for sure, but you aren't going anywhere. Whereas if you are wearing something like an impact vest, you can swim in it, and it also provides some buoyancy. It's a tricky one. Ideally I think, they'd be an impact vest that also had an inflatable component if you chose to deploy it. Is there such a thing? My most likely scenario would be a leash break on a downwinder in eg. 35 knots, with a mile or two to swim to shore. I could probably do that if my life depended on it. But not in a full pfd and wetsuit (I SUP cold waters). I'm not sure of want to be just bobbing in the water waiting for
someone to answer my PLB. I think I'd rather activate the PLB and also be slowly making my way shorewards swimming, which doesn't seem possible in some full PFDs. Does anyone have experience of swimming in one in rough seas?

It may be a little slower swimming in a PFD but "impossible" isn't really accurate.  I recall this argument from a past thread.  All you have to do is swim to your board, which should be leashed to you.  In any case, you'd have to swim with your paddle anyway.  So you wouldn't be as fast as you might be, with no pfd and no paddle.  As one who has self rescued in whitewater rivers while kayaking by swimming to shore with a pfd, I know it can be done, and is commonly done, and I don't mean just washing up where the river takes you.  Just a little extra drag with a pfd, but much less work to stay afloat.  Why don't you conduct an experiment, put on a pfd and hop in, see if you are anchored in place.

Seldom, I imagine our SUP conditions are very different. If you read the whole of my post, then you'll see that I was talking about the situation where you have become separated from your board because of eg. leash failure. Leash snaps ate a real possibility in the conditions I go out in.

We might also differ in our definitions of what constitutes "swimming". A couple of days ago I swam about 2.5k in the sea at a respectable cruising pace just to make sure I can. I was OK, but was pretty tired at the end of it. If I had been doing it in typical downwinding conditions it would have been substantially more difficult. But I could probably still make it. But put a typical kayak or sailing pfd on and it would be pretty much impossible unless perhaps you happen to be a professional lifeguard or open-water swimmer.

So, I suggest you try it. Get a pfd on, jump in the sea, and try to swim 1-2 miles. I doubt you'll get further than 500 yds before you decide that it is, to all intents and purposes, "impossible". I know, I've tried. And I was shocked at how handicapped I was.

But of course if there is no chance that you could swim to safety anyway, because your swimming is weak, then pretty much your only option if your board goes AWOL is a pfd. So, yet again, matters of safety depend in situations and people, and it is pretty difficult to come up with a "one size fits all" solution. Mostly it is about balancing the risks. In cold water, you can't just bob about forever and wait for someone to come. Even in a wetsuit, the clock starts ticking the minute you hit the water, so if you can, you'd better start moving in the direction you need to go asap. It might be different in the tropics, and in calm water or suchlike.

I also think that sometimes PFDs give a false sense of security. But that's another story altogether, and I'd never suggest someone doesn't wear one if they think it might be helpful.

I've had several opportunities to try and swim wearing a USCG approved PFD and an impact vest; the impact vest is far easier to swim while wearing.  I generally wear a belt pack PFD but when it's really rough and cold I wear both the belt pack and impact vest.

Quote from: Area 10 on September 01, 2016, 02:39:25 PM
So, I suggest you try it. Get a pfd on, jump in the sea, and try to swim 1-2 miles. I doubt you'll get further than 500 yds before you decide that it is, to all intents and purposes, "impossible". I know, I've tried. And I was shocked at how handicapped I was.

+1  Yes, me too. I glad someone brought this up.  I suspect there are a lot of people who overestimate their ability to swim in open water.  I spent some time this summer swimming in my local cold mountain lake, in all wind conditions.  Swimming in rough seas is hard.  Fortunately for me there I'm never more than .5 mile from any shore (but may be more than a mile from the downwind shore).   

And yes, the other "impossible" thing with SUP (particularly in spring) is dressing for immersion in cold water when the air temperature is warm or hot.  If you aren't cooking when paddling, you'll be freezing if swimming for while. 

Very interesting data from this link noted a few posts up by SUPsports -

https://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5214/pfdselection.asp

* About 423 people drowned in 2006, apparently because they didn't have a PFD that they were willing to wear.
* About 51 people died in accidents where PFDs were used, but only in a few of those cases is there any indication that a higher performing PFD might have prevented the drowning.  In the majority of cases, other contributing factors would have overcome the benefits of any PFD. The factors include: being trapped in an overturned boat, being held under a boulder or log by the strong currents of white water, removing the PFD for some reason (like swimming to shore), becoming hypothermic due to the duration of exposure in cold water, suffering other injuries that led to drowning, etc.

"removing the PFD for some reason (like swimming to shore)" - this seems like a huge risk to take in the cold ocean.  The fundamental problem in these drownings was simply not wearing PFDs.  We always wear a PFD for this reason and use a strong leash as well.  However if we had to choose - a leash would be preferred over a PFD.  Much rather fall in and hop back on my SUP vs fall in - lose my board - and float around with a PFD.  Sounds like ditching the PFD and trying to swim to shore - simply increased the number of drownings.  So maybe double leash up then in adverse conditions.  We carry extra stretch rope as an extra leash - which doubles as an emergency tow rope when we DW.  And specifically added tow plugs on the nose so we can tow bow first.

Very good data as well about swimming in cold water -> it simply speeds up your heat loss.  Basically in cold water you only have a certain amount of time you can survive.  So always best to stay attached to your board at all costs - and get out of the cold water.  In winter we use breathable dry pants socks and top - and full PFD.  Still get pretty hot - but much safer.

Quote from: Beasho on August 31, 2016, 09:31:20 AM
O'Neill Gooru vest.  I wear mine in the surf 100% of time under wetsuit

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00QLN1L4O/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472660936&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=gooru+vest

BUY A GOORU

Quote from: Area 10 on August 31, 2016, 09:57:05 PM
Have you tried swimming any distance in these pfds? The shortcoming of some of these PFDs is that it is pretty much impossible to do so. So it will keep you afloat for sure, but you aren't going anywhere. . . . .

BUY A GOORU

Quote from: Gramps on September 01, 2016, 02:59:23 PM
I've had several opportunities to try and swim wearing a USCG approved PFD and an impact vest; the impact vest is far easier to swim while wearing. . . . .

BUY A GOORU

There are people on this forum that know their stuff.  I don't want to be a d-ck but everyone's opinion is not equal.  Area10 has been around and while we have disagreed HE KNOWS HIS STUFF.  SUPSPORTS and I have disagreed on fins, but HE KNOWS HIS STUFF. 

Having been SUP surfing for 7 years and survived conditions that would have killed a bunch of people, and watched some guys at Mavericks survive absolutely horrific, deadly stuff I have concluded you want to FLOAT.  . . . AT ALL TIMES.  I have chosen to wear the Gooru vest all the times, it is on, it works it doesn't require CO2 and it is NOT coast guard approved.  I have surfed with it over 500 hundred times and when the waves have gone over 20 feet I have added another life jacket on top of it.

I have broken ribs and fallen in the water and thought "Well this is going to suck but at least I will not drown.  When I hit the beach it's really going to hurt . . ."  I have broken leashes and paddled 500 yards.  I do not downwind so I haven't paddled for 2 miles but I imagine it would be possible with the Gooru under my wetsuit.  For $80 to $120 it might just save your life.  Probably not (because those of us reading this will not be the next mom that drowns in Colorado, or dude in the Gorge because we didn't wear a PFD), but the added amount of courage will push your further, make you a better SUP'er and lead to better posts on this forum.  So paddle on.

Have the NRS inflatable and it sucks, fine for flatwater but the velcro comes undone in the surf, and the non-inflated bag hangs like a diaper around your ass.
The guy who designs Astral will put together a prototype, and take it for a swim, tweaking the design to get everything right and balanced on it. Maybe it's just a matter of optimizing your swimming style to work with a good life jacket.
Some type of flotation allows SAR to find your body a lot sooner, saving taxpayers money.

Quote from: Area 10 on September 01, 2016, 02:39:25 PM
Seldom, I imagine our SUP conditions are very different. If you read the whole of my post, then you'll see that I was talking about the situation where you have become separated from your board because of eg. leash failure. Leash snaps ate a real possibility in the conditions I go out in.

We might also differ in our definitions of what constitutes "swimming". A couple of days ago I swam about 2.5k in the sea at a respectable cruising pace just to make sure I can. I was OK, but was pretty tired at the end of it. If I had been doing it in typical downwinding conditions it would have been substantially more difficult. But I could probably still make it. But put a typical kayak or sailing pfd on and it would be pretty much impossible unless perhaps you happen to be a professional lifeguard or open-water swimmer.

So, I suggest you try it. Get a pfd on, jump in the sea, and try to swim 1-2 miles. I doubt you'll get further than 500 yds before you decide that it is, to all intents and purposes, "impossible". I know, I've tried. And I was shocked at how handicapped I was.

But of course if there is no chance that you could swim to safety anyway, because your swimming is weak, then pretty much your only option if your board goes AWOL is a pfd. So, yet again, matters of safety depend in situations and people, and it is pretty difficult to come up with a "one size fits all" solution. Mostly it is about balancing the risks. In cold water, you can't just bob about forever and wait for someone to come. Even in a wetsuit, the clock starts ticking the minute you hit the water, so if you can, you'd better start moving in the direction you need to go asap. It might be different in the tropics, and in calm water or suchlike.

I also think that sometimes PFDs give a false sense of security. But that's another story altogether, and I'd never suggest someone doesn't wear one if they think it might be helpful.

Two key words expose you:  you "imagine" how I paddle, though you know nothing about me. You "think" you can make it.  Hope you do if the time comes.  But the important thing is that you had the right to choose whether or not to wear a pfd. 

I thought this thread was about PFDs, not what works in big surf or downwind conditions most of us well never attempt.  An impact vest is not a PFD.  A lot of USA waterways require a USCG approved PFD.  What's wrong with getting a PFD that works well and is USCG approved?  Did you actually read the OPs story in the Sup Safety category?  And you really think he needs an impact vest???

Yes, he probably does. Getting back on your board with a USCG-approved lifejacket is much more difficult. Beginners have trouble with that to begin with. I make my grandkids use them, but I'd NEVER wear one of those on a SUP. They aren't getting out of my sight anyway. I need to be able to swim, at least try to get the board if the leash breaks, and/or make it to shore in cold water rather than just bobbing and waiting. Standard lifejackets and even those designed for minimum interference don't let you swim. Stick one on and try it. It would take you half the day to get from the middle of the Columbia to the beach, if you ever got there.  I broke my leash on a Maliko run a few years back and Headmount caught my board. He was fifty yards from me at most, and my camelbak dragged so much that it took huge effort to swim to him. I tried a number of kayak vests before I bought the Vaikobi--took them out to the event center and tried to swim. Very slow.

Yes, you can swim in whitewater with a PFD. It's more a matter of channeling the energy the river supplies than anything else, and generally, you need to go a few yards perpendicular to flow--and even that is mostly ferrying. Been there, done that, not the same thing.

I would never recommend such a lifejacket to people. Why do you think people took the lifejacket off to swim to shore. The USCG does a completely incompetent job regulating our sport. The only lifejackets they recognize as being useful are those that passively float you, waiting for rescue. Other countries have recognized PFDs intended for everything from passive floating to swimming. If the CG examined my Vaikobi jacket they'd give me a ticket. How stupid is that? I can have a child's PFD tied uselessly to the nose of my board with the requisite USCG tag and I'm legal, but wearing a PFD that actually allows me to get back on the board, or swim to shore rather than going hypothermic, and I'm not. Screw that.

Gooru is a great choice.

Now if they only made it in mucho extra extra grande.....does the whole world have small chests or something...even their 3xl doesn't fit me.

I cut mine up a bit and added a gore under the arms. Works better anyway. No padding to rub my delicate skin while paddling.  I'm a total believer in wearing an impact vest while surfing, and it's not for impact. It's to get back to the air a little sooner and not worry all the time that my leash might break. I can swim easily in an impact vest. Loch Eggers, who is an absolute waterman, wears one all the time. He said "anything over three feet and I'm wearing this." I don't know what sparked that, but my guess is that it was pretty horrific. I came across him at Upper Kanaha one day, swimming with a camera. No float, no board, just one fin, an easy mile from shore in wicked current and surf. Happy as a clam. If he's wearing float, I'm wearing float.

After my SCA and ICD install I discovered that prone paddling hurt a lot; getting hit with a board was worse and could cause a NASTY shock.

Got a GOORU which solved the impact issue, but did NOT keep my head above water after zappage, and my trusty Stearns needed to have a conscious guy to pull the ripcord.

Sniffed around and found a CG approved PFD Body Glove Float Coat. I only use when racing or on the ocean in winter. It works for me, but I hope there is no one else out there needing that level of security.

However, it will keep your head out of the water if you are momentarily non compos mentos..

OBTW I can swim in it, and can clamber back on in a blizzard in 34 degree water.

If the surf is bigger than three or four feet, and it is warm and sunny,
I wear a triathlon short john.  It is 5mm thick on the front and 3mm on the back -
- so lots of float.  Yup you can swim in it - it is for triathlons!  I think it has as much float
as the impact vest but is less obtrusive.  Although I've never tried on an impact vest.

Before that, I would wear trunks and a 1.5mm wetsuit jacket top but once I was out
in really big surf and I decided it just didn't have enough float.  I didn't want to go with the
restriction of thicker arms - then found the thick triathlon short john would fit the bill -
no paddling restriction of the arms at all with plenty of float.

Now, I'm more comfortable/relaxed in the bigger surf than not having the extra float.
Of course, I'm not surfing Mav's.

Quote from: PonoBill on September 02, 2016, 06:57:14 AM

Gooru is a great choice.

As a swim aid, maybe.  As a PFD, no.  It's again, not USGA approved, which we all need to wear stateside on regulated waterways.

Again, it's not the Maliko, the Gorge, Mavs or the North Atlantic. 

A belt PFD is a last resort device.  It is very easy to swim with and get back on your board.

If you're swimming, then you're not very likely to pull the cord and inflate the device.

Looks like US Lifejacket regulations are changing and the lower levels of float will have use-specific approval. I don't know if Australian level five will equal USCG level five, but we might be able to use CG-approved lifejackets that actually work.

I'm not talking about challenging water for the current stuff, I'm talking about your basic lake. Fall off a board with a full PFD and you'll have a hell of a time getting back on. If you don't have a leash and there's any kind of breeze you probably won't be able to get to it. If you have to swim more than a few hundred yards to self rescue you're gonna have a long afternoon that might not work out well.

I've never tried swimming in a PFD mostly because I've never had to. I don't paddle in some of the crazy conditions others on this forum do although the wind does come up on the lake I mostly paddle on. I always wear a leash and always wear a PFD. You will see in an earlier post that I used to wear a waist belt PFD, but I stopped that after I banged my ribs up. Really don't want to do that again (hurt like hell and took a long time to heal) so I now wear a full, although minimal, PFD. In the winter I'll also wear a farmer john wet suit and a larger PFD. I feel pretty safe with this set up, but just recently decided that at least in the winter time I'll take my phone with me.

As far as not being able to get back on my board with a PFD on, it's never been a problem for me. I just don't find it at all difficult, although I do agree it can be a problem, as I've seen others struggle in this situation.

Quote from: SeldomScene on September 01, 2016, 07:47:09 PM

Quote from: Area 10 on September 01, 2016, 02:39:25 PM
Seldom, I imagine our SUP conditions are very different. If you read the whole of my post, then you'll see that I was talking about the situation where you have become separated from your board because of eg. leash failure. Leash snaps ate a real possibility in the conditions I go out in.

We might also differ in our definitions of what constitutes "swimming". A couple of days ago I swam about 2.5k in the sea at a respectable cruising pace just to make sure I can. I was OK, but was pretty tired at the end of it. If I had been doing it in typical downwinding conditions it would have been substantially more difficult. But I could probably still make it. But put a typical kayak or sailing pfd on and it would be pretty much impossible unless perhaps you happen to be a professional lifeguard or open-water swimmer.

So, I suggest you try it. Get a pfd on, jump in the sea, and try to swim 1-2 miles. I doubt you'll get further than 500 yds before you decide that it is, to all intents and purposes, "impossible". I know, I've tried. And I was shocked at how handicapped I was.

But of course if there is no chance that you could swim to safety anyway, because your swimming is weak, then pretty much your only option if your board goes AWOL is a pfd. So, yet again, matters of safety depend in situations and people, and it is pretty difficult to come up with a "one size fits all" solution. Mostly it is about balancing the risks. In cold water, you can't just bob about forever and wait for someone to come. Even in a wetsuit, the clock starts ticking the minute you hit the water, so if you can, you'd better start moving in the direction you need to go asap. It might be different in the tropics, and in calm water or suchlike.

I also think that sometimes PFDs give a false sense of security. But that's another story altogether, and I'd never suggest someone doesn't wear one if they think it might be helpful.

Two key words expose you:  you "imagine" how I paddle, though you know nothing about me. You "think" you can make it.  Hope you do if the time comes.  But the important thing is that you had the right to choose whether or not to wear a pfd.

"Expose" me? What do you mean? It seems that I've irritated you in some way - but I'm baffled as to how or why.
I say I "think" I could make it because you can never take anything for granted. I know I can swim the distances I need to normally. But it is likely that if I found myself swimming for my life the circumstances wouldn't be normal.
You are right that I know nothing about you or where you SUP. So it would help me if you could tell me, because after this reply I'm still none the wiser. I'm sure I'll understand your viewpoint if you explain the background to it. It seems from the other replies here that my own views aren't minority ones. But no doubt there are many other viewpoints as well, depending on one's personal experiences.

Yes, I'm lucky that I live in a country that largely lets you make your own mind about which safety approach on the water is best for you.

I would DW in a full PFD if I could find one that doesn't hinder you getting back on the board.....but they do IMHO. I have a streamlined one but it still hinders. That Kokodat one looks pretty good but they don't sell them in the UK as they are not approved. Not sure where I would stash my gear either...VHF etc.

My favourite solution is an Oneil Impact vest and a belt PFD turned to the back...and a Camelbak for the goodies.

I don't use anything for surfing...just board and leash...but I don't do Mavericks  ;D

In winter wearing the impact vest will give me a bit more warmth when surfing I suppose...and protection.

Also for me - no problem hopping back on a board with a full PFD - Orbit or others.  But if so - then maybe the impact float or surfski type might be easier and a better solution.  Provided a waist inflatable is added.

According to the water temps and survival time chart for hypothermia - have about an hour before exhaustion or unconsciousness round these parts summer or winter.  And are expected to survive from 1 to 4 hours max.  But most that drown seem to go under in a minute or two without any float or swimming ability based on the news reports.  And swimming in cold water vs warm is completely different.  Many here that swim any distance wear a swim wetsuit even in the summer.

Surf vs DW vs AW seem to require slightly different requirements.  And as long as you recognize the pros and cons and risks of each - you can at least make an informed decision.  Everybody has their own best solution and risk tolerance level - and that is perfectly ok.

Aha! I now understand all the issues about difficulty getting back on a board with a PFD. It's a DW thing. Never had a problem in crazy conditions, but B-I-G doesn't know squat about DW. Boatwakes, Seaplane take-offs, voodoo chop yes! If I couldn't get back on after falling...ROTFLMAO!

There's such a range of conditions people paddle in, let alone other factors--how far from shore, experience, alone or in a group...Yet the pfd that will meet the regulations for someone paddling alone in heavy waves in January in Lake Superior is the same one that you're required to carry paddling 10 feet from shore in 3' deep water on a quiet warm lake in summer in a group at a beach with a lifeguard.

This isn't anti-pfd.  People who give examples of cases where it would be foolish to paddle without wearing a full, non-inflatable pfd are correct.  But when I read those, I think of the contrast between that, and me paddling with my swimming friends, all with leashes, 100' from shore in the warm Willamette--the same place one of us just completed a 12-mile swim.  And apart from me (who swims mile butterfly for fun) she was the worst swimmer among us.

It seems there'd be greater safety created by relaxing pfd regulations, since many conditions/situations don't require the full flotation of the pfds that are currently legal.  I'd rather see someone with something that works well for their situation, and provides some safety, rather than the current situation where people choose to skip the pfd altogether, or just strap it to their board.   I think we'd see companies coming out with a lot more good flotation options if the regulations relaxed so that those could meet the standards, because that would mean a lot more potential customers.  Right now, not many people are going to buy a flotation device that doesn't keep them from getting fined.  The only reason impact vests are available is because they already have a market among surfers, who aren't required to wear pfds.  And I agree, impact vests are a terrible choice for someone who wants to be legal, but can be a great flotation option for others in the right situation.

Quote from: mrbig on September 02, 2016, 12:42:58 PM
Aha! I now understand all the issues about difficulty getting back on a board with a PFD. It's a DW thing. Never had a problem in crazy conditions, but B-I-G doesn't know squat about DW. Boatwakes, Seaplane take-offs, voodoo chop yes! If I couldn't get back on after falling...ROTFLMAO!

Most certainly if one has difficulty getting back on with a full PFD - that is a big problem that should be addressed.  Everyone should be able to get back on their board with a full PFD without too much difficulty.

We have 2 basic options for AW and DW.  Inflatable waist or harness for docile conditions - and full PFD for rough adverse.  Works a charm for our situation.  But a strong leash is always the constant for us in the ocean.

Strapping a PFD to a board and not using a leash often happens.  And is ok sometimes for those that stay within 100m from shore in calm conditions and can swim.

As well using an impact or surfski one is ok - if that is better for that specific person and use.  But saying one system is better than another because it is better for you and others - is very questionable.  Only you know what works best for you - for your specific circumstances.

I can get back on my board with a full PFD on but it's certainly not as easy....I have to really pull up and on...rather than sliding on easy.

Maybe it is the PFD being bulkier than I imagine or maybe my belly needs some loss! Maybe need to try a diff one.

But, Oneil comp vest and the mrk2 MTI waist belt seems pretty good just now...just enough float to make a difference and give protection...and the waist belt if things go really really bad....there's no swimming in that thing.

Quote from: Beasho on September 01, 2016, 05:37:23 PM

Quote from: Beasho on August 31, 2016, 09:31:20 AM
O'Neill Gooru vest.  I wear mine in the surf 100% of time under wetsuit

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00QLN1L4O/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472660936&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=gooru+vest

BUY A GOORU

Quote from: Area 10 on August 31, 2016, 09:57:05 PM
Have you tried swimming any distance in these pfds? The shortcoming of some of these PFDs is that it is pretty much impossible to do so. So it will keep you afloat for sure, but you aren't going anywhere. . . . .

BUY A GOORU

Quote from: Gramps on September 01, 2016, 02:59:23 PM
I've had several opportunities to try and swim wearing a USCG approved PFD and an impact vest; the impact vest is far easier to swim while wearing. . . . .

BUY A GOORU

There are people on this forum that know their stuff.  I don't want to be a d-ck but everyone's opinion is not equal.  Area10 has been around and while we have disagreed HE KNOWS HIS STUFF.  SUPSPORTS and I have disagreed on fins, but HE KNOWS HIS STUFF. 

Having been SUP surfing for 7 years and survived conditions that would have killed a bunch of people, and watched some guys at Mavericks survive absolutely horrific, deadly stuff I have concluded you want to FLOAT.  . . . AT ALL TIMES.  I have chosen to wear the Gooru vest all the times, it is on, it works it doesn't require CO2 and it is NOT coast guard approved.  I have surfed with it over 500 hundred times and when the waves have gone over 20 feet I have added another life jacket on top of it.

I have broken ribs and fallen in the water and thought "Well this is going to suck but at least I will not drown.  When I hit the beach it's really going to hurt . . ."  I have broken leashes and paddled 500 yards.  I do not downwind so I haven't paddled for 2 miles but I imagine it would be possible with the Gooru under my wetsuit.  For $80 to $120 it might just save your life.  Probably not (because those of us reading this will not be the next mom that drowns in Colorado, or dude in the Gorge because we didn't wear a PFD), but the added amount of courage will push your further, make you a better SUP'er and lead to better posts on this forum.  So paddle on.

Yeah I agree, and I use a Gooru too. I went through a few other impact vests before, but the Gooru is the best all-round solution so far for my particułar situations - mainly offshore downwinders in the sea and surf breaks 0.5-1.5 miles offshore.

Would the inflatable vests big wave riders use provide any useful advance on an impact vest/pfd for SUPers in a tricky situation? (At least for those of us who routinely wear wetsuits.) I've never tried one so have no idea what they give you other than getting you to the surface quicker. Can you swim in them?

I'm surprised there hasn't been more creativity with PFD designs. This is a pretty common issue, and the truth is nobody really likes wearing PFDs. Why haven't people come up with some spiffy designs you might want to wear?

A number of manufacturers have come out with SUP specific PFDs.  And the one we like - since it is both USCG and TC approved is the Orbit.  It takes a minimalistic approach with small area - but has a bit of bulk.  Every design has pros and cons.  But many choices actually now for paddlers in the States - but not for Canada.

I think all surfski paddlers must smile when they hear people complaining about how hard it is to remount a SUP with a PFD. A surfski s 17" wide with a round hull and the cockpit rim is about 12" off the water. You have to get up and over, flip onto your back, rotate 90 degrees, and not let the log roll while you are doing it. Add a bulky pfd with a vhf radio in the front pocket and big breaking waves, and it Is obvious that it is a skill that has to be learned and practiced. But once the skill is mastered it is trivial and done without thought even in big seas.

I think practice is the big difference. When you learn to paddle a ski you practice the hell out of remounts on flat water and then in big water too, because your life will depend on it someday. Practice works.

If getting on a SUP with a PFD is hard then the simple solution is to practice with a PFD. 10 remounts from each side every time you paddle will build stength and muscle memory fast.

It's well and good to talk about how great your skills are at remounting your board, surfski, OC1, or whatever, but beginners aren't mastering that black art. If you don't have difficulting getting back on your board with a full PFD, congrats, but watch someone try it  with just a few session under their belt, or with an inflatable--not pretty. Those, by the way, are the bulk of the people dying. 

Probs depends on the person.  But practicing is a good idea then like zach suggests.  Getting in surfski is much harder than just slithering back on a SUP.

I'd guess quite a few SUP drowning victims died long before the 10th time they ever fell in, and many probably died the first time they fell. 


I also bet that quite a few beginners couldn't make it through a session of practicing falling in 10 times and climbing back on their boards.  So that actually isn't just a great idea for practicing, it also might not be a bad screening test--if you can't do ten, you shouldn't paddle in any situation where your safety relies on you getting back up, and if you can't do at least a few, you probably shouldn't be paddling yet, period.

This is an important discussion. I was surprised at how hard it was to get back on my Naish 17fter in 30 knots with a full pfd on, that had a PLB etc stuffed in the front pockets. The safety equipment was making me unsafe! The very definition of irony (take note, Alanis Morissette).

It might be an argument for a waist-belt type pfd - at least in flat water. But has anyone tried getting back on a board wearing one when it is inflated? Does it get in the way like a normal full pfd does?

What I'd really like is an impact vest like the Gooru that has a bladder that you can inflate yourself if you need to to turn it into a full pfd. Best of both worlds, perhaps. Does anyone make such a thing?

I'm an impact vest or Restube kind of guy.

Neither is officially approved but they don't get in the way of action or getting back on board and don't make you look stupid.

I get controlled by law enforcement over a dozen times a year that I'm respecting mandatory pdf laws and both have always been satisfactory. I believe function is more important than certification and I'm glad law enforcement tends to also be pragmatic.

I wear a leash anyway.

Btw, board design is an important factor in these kinds of survival situations. Ask a beginner to get back on (or perhaps it should be in) a Starboard Ace while wearing a typical design full pfd and you will see what I mean.

Yep. All of my boards did not have a recessed cockpit! An ACE on Lake Superior would be interesting..

Quote from: Area 10 on September 05, 2016, 02:22:23 AM
This is an important discussion. I was surprised at how hard it was to get back on my Naish 17fter in 30 knots with a full pfd on, that had a PLB etc stuffed in the front pockets. The safety equipment was making me unsafe! The very definition of irony (take note, Alanis Morissette).

It might be an argument for a waist-belt type pfd - at least in flat water. But has anyone tried getting back on a board wearing one when it is inflated? Does it get in the way like a normal full pfd does?

What I'd really like is an impact vest like the Gooru that has a bladder that you can inflate yourself if you need to to turn it into a full pfd. Best of both worlds, perhaps. Does anyone make such a thing?

Yup, when I stuff the VHF and PLB in the front pockets then I look like the Tin Man and getting back on is harder....I can always do it but it isn't fun.

Quote from: drfierce on August 31, 2016, 10:11:00 AM
Keeping an eye on this product which looks interesting:

http://www.hyde-sportswear.com/pages/home-2

They shipped mine yesterday.   I always wear a PFD on my ski.  I've had a few adventures and did several swims.  Swimming is tough in a PFD.  My plan was to keep it on for short swims and ditch it if I was way outside.  Great to have for unexpected problems, including helping someone else.

The wing man will be much easier to swim in.  I plan on sun fading this one from red to white too.

They updated the kickstarters as they developed the vest.  The Coast Guard testing was brutal.  The bureaucratic hoops were comical.  My heart goes out to anyone that has to navigate those jackasses.

http://vimeo.com/178372217

Quote from: Area 10 on September 05, 2016, 02:22:23 AM
What I'd really like is an impact vest like the Gooru that has a bladder that you can inflate yourself if you need to to turn it into a full pfd. Best of both worlds, perhaps. Does anyone make such a thing?

This would be awesome.
We live on the Delta Waterways, between Sacramento and San Francisco.  Our ski boat is at our dock in the backyard and I ski a set in the slalom course 2-3 times a week.  I have always used non CG approved vests, due to the restriction of movement.  Bought a Gooru a year and a half ago.  The design is so good that I actually have a much better range of movement while skiing over my old Non-CG approved vests.  I do wear CG approved pfd for wakeboarding/wakesurfing.
I have never used my Gooru for SUS.  But I have no doubt that it would not limit or restrict movement at all.
The idea of having a Gooru with an inflatable bladder would be the perfect combination of impact protection and safety. 

Quote from: LaPerouseBay on September 10, 2016, 06:13:19 PM

Quote from: drfierce on August 31, 2016, 10:11:00 AM
Keeping an eye on this product which looks interesting:

http://www.hyde-sportswear.com/pages/home-2

They shipped mine yesterday.   I always wear a PFD on my ski.  I've had a few adventures and did several swims.  Swimming is tough in a PFD.  My plan was to keep it on for short swims and ditch it if I was way outside.  Great to have for unexpected problems, including helping someone else.

The wing man will be much easier to swim in.  I plan on sun fading this one from red to white too.

They updated the kickstarters as they developed the vest.  The Coast Guard testing was brutal.  The bureaucratic hoops were comical.  My heart goes out to anyone that has to navigate those jackasses.

http://vimeo.com/178372217

I pre-ordered a Wingman too. Hopefully it will be here soon.

The wingman is a nice design, but I'd like something that provided some immediate float, some impact protection, and more float on inflation. Until that comes along I might have to look at one of these. I don't care about CG approval. I have nothing but respect for the Coast Guard as an organization, but the PFD stuff is just bureaucratic flim flam.

I signed on to the Kickstarter, and got my Wingman about a month ago.  I like it, low profile, and very comfortable - I don't notice that it is there at all.  But I'm tall and skinny - not sure how it will fit larger people. 

It does share a lot of the pluses and minuses with other inflatables - no immediate flotation, no impact protection.  But a lot easier to use if you do have to inflate it.  Yes, it would be must less drag swimming - until you deploy it, then it's going to be pretty much like any other inflatable. 

Nice pocket in the back for phone/dry case and keys.  Might have to rethink your hydration if you are currently using a backpack bladder.  But it leaves you waist free.

Quote from: CascadeSup on September 11, 2016, 07:30:38 PM
I signed on to the Kickstarter, and got my Wingman about a month ago.  I like it, low profile, and very comfortable - I don't notice that it is there at all.  But I'm tall and skinny - not sure how it will fit larger people. 

It does share a lot of the pluses and minuses with other inflatables - no immediate flotation, no impact protection.  But a lot easier to use if you do have to inflate it.  Yes, it would be must less drag swimming - until you deploy it, then it's going to be pretty much like any other inflatable. 

Nice pocket in the back for phone/dry case and keys.  Might have to rethink your hydration if you are currently using a backpack bladder.  But it leaves you waist free.

Will a bladder from a Camelback fit in the Wingman? I was under the impression that it would. The also had said that you can attach a GoPro or other POV action camera to it as well.

Quote from: iDownwind on September 12, 2016, 03:15:35 AM
Will a bladder from a Camelback fit in the Wingman? I was under the impression that it would. The also had said that you can attach a GoPro or other POV action camera to it as well.

I forgot about that - yes, there is a neoprene sleeve on the inside of the back.  It isn't big - about 10 inches high and 5 inches wide.  I don't have a bladder that size, so I guess I'll have to get one.

The accessory packs shown the kickstarter page are not available yet. 

I don't really see much of an advantage of the Wingman over the current bum bag style PDFs that are now on the market. Only reason for a Wingman is if I was in a surfski or OC.

Quote from: coldsup on September 14, 2016, 02:57:23 PM
I don't really see much of an advantage of the Wingman over the current bum bag style PDFs that are now on the market. Only reason for a Wingman is if I was in a surfski or OC.

It seems the Wingman is closer to the suspender style inflatables than the waist pack.  And certainly most SUP'ers have chosen with the waist pack style.

Maybe it isn't that compelling, but two things come to mind:  I think it would be less drag when swimming - before it is inflated. Second, to deploy a waist pack style requires you to spin it around to the front (since everyone wears them backwards), inflate it, get it over your head, and tie the neck closure.  Maybe that's not a big deal, but I've heard someone say it's not as easy to get over your head in rough water than you might think.  I don't know, I haven't tried.  But with the Wingman all you have to do is pull the handle.   

I think my most likely scenarios for using an inflatable pfd is either after I've lost my board, and I'm exhausted from swimming; or, I'm still conscious, but somehow incapacitated.  In either case, simpler is better.

So I've been wearing the Wingman on downwind runs, and still using the waist pack on flat water.  But I already have both.  If I could have just one, I'd pick the Wingman.  But I suspect most people will be put off by the price and go with the cheaper option of a waist pack. 

Earlier in this thread someone said the ideal would be to have something like an inflatable impact vest.  Initial buoyancy plus a full pfd.  The Wingman isn't inherently buoyant, but you could wear a Wingman over an impact vest.  I know, it would be expensive, and more stuff to deal with.   Tradeoffs.

What is the advantage of wingman over the harnes type inflatables?

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--manual-inflatable-life-jacket-with-harness-yellow--16759755?recordNum=2 (http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--manual-inflatable-life-jacket-with-harness-yellow--16759755?recordNum=2)

Quote from: CascadeSup on September 11, 2016, 07:30:38 PM
I signed on to the Kickstarter, and got my Wingman about a month ago.  I like it, low profile, and very comfortable - I don't notice that it is there at all.  But I'm tall and skinny - not sure how it will fit larger people. 

A month ago?  :o Mine just shipped late last week,wth? 

Quote from: CascadeSup on September 14, 2016, 08:11:49 PM
Maybe it isn't that compelling, but two things come to mind:  I think it would be less drag when swimming - before it is inflated. Second, to deploy a waist pack style requires you to spin it around to the front (since everyone wears them backwards), inflate it, get it over your head, and tie the neck closure. 

It may vary by brand, but the tether between the belt and jacket on mine is long enough to allow the jacket to go on over my head while the waist pack is facing rear. If I felt the situation was bad enough to deploy, I wouldn't waste time turning it to the front.

Quote from: zachhandler on September 14, 2016, 08:14:01 PM
What is the advantage of wingman over the harnes type inflatables?

While not as bulky as traditional PFD, those have a relatively high profile (i.e. will create drag) and the placement of the harness is not optimal for the arm movement of swimmers.

Quote from: SeaMe on September 15, 2016, 07:08:56 AM

A month ago?  :o Mine just shipped late last week,wth? 

I'm guessing he got his earlier because he was higher on the list of backers.  That first shipment was the batch the CG monitored, in Taiwan. 

Ours is probably later due to shipping by boat, due to the CO2 cylinder.  The details are in those updates they sent over the months. 

Very tough startup IMO.  I got mine Friday.  It's a very rugged, well designed, snazzy little unit.  Stitching, materials all look first rate.  They must have done dozens of prototypes.

I say give them a break,  there are hundreds of potential snags. 

I screwed up the unit this morning.  I had watched the vid about a week ago.  I should have watched it again, very carefully, before inspecting the vest.  Before screwing in the cartridge, I was tugging all over and marveling at the design.  I pulled on the cord without the cartridge, to see how the cord drives the pin.  They do it in the video.

But the trick is, that green indicator is a one time (use it and it's busted) item.  It's a plastic safety pin that halts the trigger.  Well, I broke it. 

I made another one to get me by.  Then sent the guys a nice note asking for another.  It was my fault.

The guys should have anticipated EVERYTHING going wrong.  They should have mentioned in the video that the pin he puts in is new - the old one is busted. 

Notice how the comments have been disabled on that video?  Those poor bastards are undoubtedly fielding emails from pissed off customers, accusing him of sleight of hand to outright fraud.  Ever read youtube comments?

Lot's of snags in that business.  I wish them all the best.  It's a very cool vest.  I'm super happy with mine.

All the packaging and literature is first rate.  We've all seen much, much worse.  That damn pin, watch out! 

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/risley47/homer_zpse341814b.gif) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/risley47/media/homer_zpse341814b.gif.html)

Not sure how I got an early one, maybe I was an early backer.  And I think the first batch were all red, did you ask for red or another color?

Bummer about the indicator, LPB.  But good to keep in mind.

Thought I would follow up on the hydration. As I mentioned before, the hydration sleeve isn't all that big - about 10 inches high and 5 inches wide. You can see in the second picture how the back is tapered like an hourglass.

I searched around for reservoirs about that size. These are the two I tried:
The Hydrapac Elite 1L (http://hydrapak.com/shop/reservoirs/elite-reservoir-1l)
The Camelbak Antidote 1.5L (http://shop.camelbak.com/antidote-reservoir-50-oz15l/d/1095_cl_747)

I wanted to try one from Source, but they all seemed too wide. The Widepac 1.5L (https://sourceoutdoor.com/en/source-reservoirs/11-widepac-hydration-system) might work.

I think the max capacity in the Wingman is going to be about 1L, maybe a little more.  I know some (a lot?) of people would like to have more.  It's OK with me, as I don't want that much weight riding up there.  Without the reservoir, the Wingman is so light and balanced that I don't notice that I have it on.  But adding the reservoir, I definitely notice it a lot more, both the weight and pulling back on the shoulders. 

It is hard to judge how the reservoirs will fit from just the product descriptions because the shape of the reservoir changes as it's filled. Both the Hydrapac and the Camelbak reservoirs fit in the sleeve, but in both cases they fit better if the reservoirs are not filled to capacity – about 750ml for the Hydrapac, and 1L for the Camelbak (which is longer).   If you want to maximize capacity, I think the 1.5L Hydrapac Elite may be the best fit, filled to about 1L.  Or maybe the Source Widepac.

The Hydrapac is a lot lighter and less bulky than the Camelbak which has the large circular fill port.  The Hydrapac comes with a nice magnetic clip for the hose.  I do like the bite valve on the Camelbak better, but the Hydrapac value is good, too.

The first picture is the Hydrapac hose going through the shoulder loop (there is a loop on each shoulder), and the magnetic clip.

The second picture is the outside of the back. The CO2 cartridge sits at the top of the back between your shoulder blades (above the black triangle). The space for the reservoir is from the top of the triangle down.

The third picture is the inside of the back panel.  The access to the hydration sleeve is between the two arrows.

The fourth picture is the 1L Hydrapac showing about where it is going to fit.  The Hydrapac is filled to just 750ml.

Picture 5 shows the reservoir inserted.  It doesn't quite reach the bottom.

Picture 6 is a side view, showing the reservoir bulge.
 

Quote from: LaPerouseBay on September 17, 2016, 07:14:42 PM

Quote from: SeaMe on September 15, 2016, 07:08:56 AM

A month ago?  :o Mine just shipped late last week,wth? 

I'm guessing he got his earlier because he was higher on the list of backers. 

I joined the kickstarter very early, but maybe not early enough. Or perhaps it was because I ordered two: 1 black, 1 red. Either way I have them now, and I'm pretty impressed with what I see. I tried one on—comfortable!— but haven't paddled with it yet. The only downside I can see—and it would affect swimmers more—is having to take the jacket out to dry. You don't technically have to do it, but leave it wet and the Wingman will start to smell in short order. It's probably not a big issue for kayakers or SUPers, but swimmers and surfers ought to take note.

Quote from: LaPerouseBay on September 17, 2016, 07:14:42 PM
I screwed up the unit this morning.  I had watched the vid about a week ago.  I should have watched it again, very carefully, before inspecting the vest.  Before screwing in the cartridge, I was tugging all over and marveling at the design.  I pulled on the cord without the cartridge, to see how the cord drives the pin.  They do it in the video.

But the trick is, that green indicator is a one time (use it and it's busted) item.  It's a plastic safety pin that halts the trigger.  Well, I broke it. 

Awww, that's not good. :( The edit in the video was obvious to me, but I thought they had collapsed it for time. I didn't realize that he went and got a new piece. :o They should have given backers at least one replacement automatically.

The green pins seem to be pretty standardized, you might luck out and get a replacement on the spot, at your local marine store.

^ Thanks!   note to self, must remember, google is my friend...

Looks like pins ship with spare cartridges, so I'll be ship shape again. 

Cant wait to test it for real.

The only vid the makers have of an inflation test is a very early proto that fails due to low pressure.

Those guys need marketing help!

Quote from: LaPerouseBay on September 19, 2016, 07:50:57 AM
^ Thanks!   note to self, must remember, google is my friend...

Looks like pins ship with spare cartridges, so I'll be ship shape again. 

Cant wait to test it for real.

The only vid the makers have of an inflation test is a very early proto that fails due to low pressure.

Those guys need marketing help!

I know just the guy. He'll be back in November. Goes by the name Pono Bill

My Wingman is in the mail. Looking to buy some extra CO2 cartridges. They said 23 gm cartridges on the website but I have not had much luck finding these online. What are you guys using, and where are you finding them?

Halkey Roberts 840 series manual inflator.

Here are some pins:

https://www.amazon.com/Green-Indicator-Pins-Inflatable-Jackets/dp/B002O7AIZE

23 gram cartridges, 1/2 inch threaded.

http://www.fisheriessupply.com/leland-ltd-840am-manual-inflatable-pfd-co2-rearmig-kit

SWEET!  Just got work that my Wingman is on the way!

Well, my Hyde Wingman came on Friday afternoon. I anxiously unboxed it and checked it over. Looks like a well built PFD. The triple bursting zipper is pretty easy to inadvertently "rip" open. So i spent some time learning how to repack the life jacket, as well as figuring out the little things that will make the triple burst zipper begin to open. I accidentally opened a section of the zipper a few times while looking it over, so i pretty quickly got the hang of putting it back together.
Yesterday brought us a pretty solid SE wind at around 15mph and steady. Lake Michigan is still 70 degrees by us, so i went out for a little DW with to of the usual crew. We all wore PFD's, me in the Wingman and the other two guys had fanny pack style PFDs. My first fall i immediately noticed how easy it was to get on the board again, with no "resistance" from the Wingman at all. I would normally wear a belt/fanny pack PFD and a Camelback, and the camelback would always hold a lot of water making in heavy for a few minutes. I also would notice this weight when climbing back on the board, so it was very nice to not ever have that extra water weight. Overall i was very happy with how it fits and looks. I think Hyde has a great product. Now, if they could only make the next generation longer, so it covers your back and stomach more, that would be ideal to me. But that's just because i don't have 6 pack abs. I normally wear a rash guard or SPF rated shirt when i paddle, so not too big of a deal really.

The Ufloat  ;) aka depends

https://youtu.be/EkZh3fKbFS4

I really like my Onyx M-16 Belt Pack but haven't yet tested it (really do plan to).

It's mostly for keeping the coast guard from coming over (it's happened).  And it's very small and light.  Plus with a d-ring on it, great place to tie my phones waterproof pouch (having lost of a phone by NOT having done that).

Will

I just wrote a blog post on minimalist PFDs last week which include some of the ones mentioned here including the Hyde, Valkobi and others. http://stokemagazine.blogspot.com/2016/09/paddle-board-tips-for-big-people-low.html
The post was intended for bigger folks just saw 2 larger folks struggle with a vest style pfd as it made their chest bigger, thus their arm length shorter, thus was hard to get on the board.

If you get a waist c02 belt, fire it off before going offshore. Not as easy to put on as one may think.

I wear a vest style pfd (MTI Cascade) most of the time, but I'm in the Pac NW where we have cold water and I play in whitewater, tidal rapids etc so it also helps with body protection from falls, adds additional insulation and I can carry stuff in the pockets.  Check kayak stores if your local SUP shop doesn't have many vest pfds. try before you to get the best fit.