Is there a board made today that is good at flat water paddling/racing and going downwind in legit conditions? Or, are these separate genres, requiring separate designs using specific elements particular to the purpose?
Of course there are boards that will be decent at both but they really are separate genres and there are boards that have specific design elements geared to each condition. Any board can be paddled in any condition, it's just a matter of how much fun you want to have, what type of results you expect and how serious you are about racing or competition. If you are going to be racing recreationally and don't care about being competitive, get a board that favors downwind conditions and still use it to race flat water. This is better than buying a board specifically made for flat water and then trying to take it out in some bumps.
I have a custom 12'6 coming to me that is designed with both elements in mind. Kind of a hybrid design that the shaper and I settled on after many discussions. I know it might not be as fast on flat water as possible but I don't care, I want one board that I can grab for the majority of conditions and be ok with it.
A good racer will just use a race board and develop skills. The new race boards are looking better for downwinds (2015 Naish).
For a pure downwinder board the Rogue Rage is surprisingly good on flat and excels in light chop or upwind. At 27.5" wide it isn't going to win races against 24" wide boards.
I was pleasantly surprised to see Casper say that he finds the new Naish faster in 26" than 24", but it's always difficult to believe what a spancered rider says about his board.
Check out Jimmy Lewis M series, Angulo Shaka, Imagine, SIC.
^^^
Jimmy Lewis M14 and SIC Bullet are pretty good on flats but the Rogue Rage is faster, especially in upwind chop. Rogue Rage is no slouch on downwinds either. It's fast, stable at speed and a joy to turn off the tail. It's almost like a downwind board/race combo. Our little band of downwind freaks have these 3 in our quiver and we use them as our everyday quiver-of-one boards for everyday use (includes plenty of flat and chop).
Dunno Imagine Rocket but it looks like it's got potential to be like the Rogue Rage.
Angulo Shaka is too wide to fit the "racing" bill.
Something like the Naish Javelin LE 14' x26 springs to mind for the nimble and light experienced SUper. I have yet to get my hands (or feet) on one but suspect once I do i won't be letting go [until I get a good deal on the 2015 version].
Edit to add:
The F-One Race 14' in 26" or 28" is a race board with which is born and bred in very legit downwind conditions. Just look at the rocker it has. For some reason in south of France, where F-One is designed, the guys (and gals) tend to just use their race boards for downwinders. South of France Mistral and Tramontane winds produce very serious conditions regularly. I haven't tried one but they are supposed to be good downwinders, and I believe it. Very cool new handle for next year's boards.
Quote from: srfnff on June 25, 2014, 10:07:43 AM
Is there a board made today that is good at flat water paddling/racing and going downwind in legit conditions? Or, are these separate genres, requiring separate designs using specific elements particular to the purpose?
Come on. After what you've seen here do you really think such a thing exists? Answer is no.
You'd have to define good as adequate. I race a SIC Bullet all the time in flatwater conditions in Maui--it's what I've got. Boyum does too. But we're just screwing around and trying to beat the other geezers on downwind boards. Anyone shows up with a serious flatwater board and either talent of youth on their side and we're screwed. Of course I don't think a better board would matter that much, but it's a very handy excuse.
It's fun to see Gregg on his Javelin in any kind of chop or downwind conditions. He still beats us, but he's waterlogged at the end.
Yes a great combo would be a SIC Bullet and a Starboard Sprint :)
Clearly no such board exists. If it did, Kaya would have already bought it and then sold it. (Rinse. Repeat.) ;)
I think such a board does exist. I watched Travis Grant on his NSP DC 12'6"x25" beat Kai Lenny in their heat on the flat water sprint section at the Payette River Games. Kai was on the 2015 Naish Javelin LE that I believe was 23" wide. Slater Trout won the sprint race title on the new Infinity Blackfish. I think the cutting bow boards are on their way out or will be toned down like the Fanatic FW. I do realize that these boards are not as specific to downwind as others are but they appear to be competitive in a very wide range of water conditions.
JillRide45 is selling a beauty right here..
8)
If there is, please don't tell my wife. Might limit my quiver....
The cheaper the board, the more likely it is to be "ideal for all paddlers and all conditions", at least according to the ads. It's the most true with boards that come with a paddle.
I think a confusion is sometimes created by the tendency of eg. Hawaiians to use the term "flat water" to describe non-downwind conditions. They are mainly ocean paddlers so don't really have what Europeans for instance would think of as flat water. And to a certain extent there is also the tendency of true flat water paddlers (eg smaller lakes and rivers) to not distinguish between downwinding in the sea and inland downwinding. In some ways it would be better perhaps to talk about ocean vs. inland boards. Most areas of sea can regularly get conditions that render pure flatwater boards almost unuseable. But most inland downwind conditions can be tackled on a flat water board if you are experienced enough, and a ocean board can feel sluggish.
In short, I think the activity (ie. downwind vs. flat water) usually matters less than the location (ocean, inland).
Quote from: Area 10 on June 27, 2014, 12:43:46 AM
I think a confusion is sometimes created by the tendency of eg. Hawaiians to use the term "flat water" to describe non-downwind conditions. They are mainly ocean paddlers so don't really have what Europeans for instance would think of as flat water. And to a certain extent there is also the tendency of true flat water paddlers (eg smaller lakes and rivers) to not distinguish between downwinding in the sea and inland downwinding. In some ways it would be better perhaps to talk about ocean vs. inland boards. Most areas of sea can regularly get conditions that render pure flatwater boards almost unuseable. But most inland downwind conditions can be tackled on a flat water board if you are experienced enough, and a ocean board can feel sluggish.
In short, I think the activity (ie. downwind vs. flat water) usually matters less than the location (ocean, inland).
I agree. Great video of Josh Ricco in the Pailolo with breaking waves mid channel in April. I mean waves that many would consider reasonable size for SUS. I've shared it on my FB page but it's not a vimeo or you tube. How can I bring it over here?
Quote from: Area 10 on June 27, 2014, 12:43:46 AM
I think a confusion is sometimes created by the tendency of eg. Hawaiians to use the term "flat water" to describe non-downwind conditions. They are mainly ocean paddlers so don't really have what Europeans for instance would think of as flat water. And to a certain extent there is also the tendency of true flat water paddlers (eg smaller lakes and rivers) to not distinguish between downwinding in the sea and inland downwinding. In some ways it would be better perhaps to talk about ocean vs. inland boards. Most areas of sea can regularly get conditions that render pure flatwater boards almost unuseable. But most inland downwind conditions can be tackled on a flat water board if you are experienced enough, and a ocean board can feel sluggish.
In short, I think the activity (ie. downwind vs. flat water) usually matters less than the location (ocean, inland).
I understand and agree with what you're trying to get at, but the generalization is wrong. It's more like windy/wavey places and flat places. There is a phenomenal amount of ocean shoreline which is regularly glass and a huge amount of inland spots with regular thermal strong winds and monster bumps.
For example. Lake Garda could be SUP downwind nirvana. Get this: it honks 30 knots one way down the narrow lake one way early morning, then drops and picks up 30 kn the other way starting around noon. Do a dawn patrol DW one way, have a nice brunch and then DW back the other way and spend the rest of the afternoon windsurfing and kiting in crazy conditions. How cool is that?
Anyway. It's nice to see peeps winning flat water races on boards with full planing hull with hard rails that behave in DW conditions. And like I said, some sweet DW boards are getting acceptably fast on glass and excel in chop.
I don't think it exists either. Design requirements for optimization for racing flatwater kill a board for DW and vice versa. You can certainly get closer to an all-around board for DW and flatwater racing than you can for SUS and racing but if you're serious about either DW or racing then the compromises would be too much. That said I've raced my DW board frequently, but I'm not serious about racing.
Hey Yugi,
have you already done DW runs on the Lago, btw Torbole and Malcesine or vice versa?
Quote from: headmount on June 27, 2014, 01:37:33 AM
I agree. Great video of Josh Ricco in the Pailolo with breaking waves mid channel in April. I mean waves that many would consider reasonable size for SUS. I've shared it on my FB page but it's not a vimeo or you tube. How can I bring it over here?
headmount, is this the video you are talking about?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152416762044518&set=vb.263798299517&type=2&theater
Quote from: kayadogg on June 27, 2014, 07:52:07 AM
Quote from: headmount on June 27, 2014, 01:37:33 AM
I agree. Great video of Josh Ricco in the Pailolo with breaking waves mid channel in April. I mean waves that many would consider reasonable size for SUS. I've shared it on my FB page but it's not a vimeo or you tube. How can I bring it over here?
headmount, is this the video you are talking about?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152416762044518&set=vb.263798299517&type=2&theater
Kayadog, Yes that's the vid but one part with an overhead wave breaking behind him is missing. Though I think this clip you linked to clearly shows what the difference is as Area 10 pointed out between ocean paddling and anything else.
I wish there truly was a do-it-all flat/downwind board design but I don't think so. In my opinion, the paddlers that can make a flatwater board work in open ocean downwind conditions are doing it despite the boards, not because of them. They overcome the instability and tendency to punch into waves and are able to use the boards' design characteristics to their advantage. But they do that only as a result of being highly skilled and able to stand on those boards when the rest of us regular mortals would be mostly swimming.
Last summer in the Gorge, a number of the best racers, mostly young kids under 20, but a few older guys as well, started to use race boards instead of downwind boards for the 9 mile Viento run. People figured out how to make them work and found out that they would actually surf pretty well and potentially link bumps better than dedicated downwind boards.
That was because they accelerated better and in a lot of cases, had a pretty good weight advantage over the d/w boards. You could often climb the back of a swell, punch through with your displacement-canoe-style-nose and catch the downhill on the other side if you were on a race board. That just wasn't going to happen on a downwind board. Remember, if you're racing for 8 or 9 miles and you get only a few seconds of advantage per mile, by the end, you can build a significant gap. A couple more glides per mile can really make a really big difference, even if you fall once or twice and sacrifice a little time with a get-off.
Conditions in the Gorge are unique. I've tried to make the Javelin work in the ocean in Maui, on light or what they call 'flat' (hahaha) days here, and like PB mentioned above, I finish pretty waterlogged. I'd maybe consider trying the Javelin on a normal or even lighter downwind day here but I'd expect it to be a handful. In anything like a channel or even a good Maliko day, forget about it!
Josh, the guy in HM's video, is one of the few guys that can make a flatwater board work pretty well in the conditions that are more typical in the open ocean. But he is off the chart on the skill level. He's young and he is really, really good. I think he's one of the top paddlers around. He told me he's going to the Gorge race in August and I'm thinking he's going to kill it there. I got to watch him for about 3 minutes at the top of the Maliko run on his racy 14' before he was gone. Pretty amazing paddler!
True open ocean downwind conditions are unique and require specific design characteristics in boards that are truly made to take advantage of those conditions. Dedicated downwind boards provide the paddler/rider with the right combination of surfability, stability, directional control and speed to make downwinding an amazingly fun experience.
Wait, I can fix this: NO.
The answer is NO.
Quote from: PonoBill on June 27, 2014, 09:38:13 PM
Wait, I can fix this: NO.
The answer is NO.
Sheesh. You mean I went to all that trouble to learn to ride the Javelin downwind, then write all that ^^^^^ shiessss down and it's that simple?! No? Why didn't you say so earlier?
I dunno, PB, we're all gonna drown anyway. At least the men are gonna drown. You're grumpy since you had your arm in a sling.
Isn't that what the SIC Bullet V2 is intent on doing?
Provide excellent performance on various ocean like conditions by tweaking the design of the original SIC Bullet.
"By moving the nose rocker forward the "entry" shifted forward as well; this keeps the board from "pushing" water at low speed and in calm water. The outline's wide point has been shifted forward. This gives a rider enough balance to power up and catch bumps. "
Or is that the $2,799 question?
Not that I have the means to check this out anyway.
Quote from: lbenac on June 27, 2014, 10:29:30 PM
Isn't that what the SIC Bullet V2 is intent on doing?
Provide excellent performance on various ocean like conditions by tweaking the design of the original SIC Bullet.
"By moving the nose rocker forward the "entry" shifted forward as well; this keeps the board from "pushing" water at low speed and in calm water. The outline's wide point has been shifted forward. This gives a rider enough balance to power up and catch bumps. "
Or is that the $2,799 question?
Not that I have the means to check this out anyway.
I really wouln't agree with that. I'm assuming your asking about the 14' V2. The bullet is downwind board, 90% of SIC's line up is geared for downwind. Even with the reduced rocker, it's not meant to rip in flat water.
Is there a board that can do both... I honestly dont think so, well not a board that any average person can just jump on and rip downwind, and flatwater in the same day.
Put Kai, Conner, or any other Elite guy on a board and they'll make it work. Or like the video that was mentioned, it's really paddler skill that can make it seem like the board works for anything. But for the normals... I dotn think so. I'm sure there are a few boards that come close. And the only one that I can personally think of are Naish Jav LE's. They're obviously fast in the flat water, and in Hawaii there are lots of guys ripping downwinders on these boards.
the better paddler is able to make his/her board work in any type of conditions, although having the right board does make life a little easier.
It sucks having to own multiple boards for different conditions... better to move to Hawaii and just do downwinders :P
^^^ True. The elite racers on narrow boards are going to DW their boards in any case just so that they are truly at ease on them in all conditions, while a mere mortal's wide downwind board will be inherently slower for flatwater. I think it's the width which will remain the essence while the shapes begin to converge.
I think it's cool that the designs of race boards are appearing with planing hulls that'll behave downwind. DWers on displacement shapes can be done but that shape wants to just plow straight, or worse reverse steer, whereas a planing hull with rocker is a million times more fun.. and predictable. We also see flat water race boards now with the nose out of the water (sprinkler effect) and a bit of tail rocker.
A pure DW board will always have more rocker but those too are tending to flatter for longer planing even if slightly more technical. A few of this forum's most prolific posting downwind aficionados (a couple of the Maliko gang, the SA naish guys, DJ in Aus) are moving to these boards I see.
So as the shapes are tending towards one another the real 2 "genres" are narrow for race and wider for riding the gnarl (or floating the gnarly rider). There is a way to close that gender gap though: get better at it! That's exactly what I'm working on. I'm fine on a 27" but happy with my 28" wide as a tame learning platform. I do see a 26" wide board quiver-of-one DW board that goes well in flat water and chop in my future.
Our local elite racer comes on downwinders on his (own) custom 12'6 x 24" (and flys). As he's a shaper I was offering him to try some of the different shapes in our downwind quiver. He finally admitted that he really wasn't comfortable paddling on something wide. I've heard that before from guys that have progressed to narrower boards so I want to try it.
As mentioned earlier I'm excited to hear Casper Steinfath is saying he prefers the 26" 2015 Naish Javelin for racing, and he's no heavyweight. That's news! I think maybe these guys are now planing their race boards. They sure are in the sprints. 26" may be looking like a happy medium. I know I could do it and if racers on the world circuit are doing it then the gap is closed.
Pure downwind boards are already good enough [fun] on flatwater. Case in point: I'm in Switzerland on a lake and we're a growing group on downwind 14's as a SUP quiver-of-one. Might seem crazy to have DW boards inland but a good day of virgin powder skiing in the morning followed by a downwinder in the afternoon is double fun (I got a bunch of those this spring). OK, we're not racing... well... I should say that differently: we are not doing "the races", instead we now race each other every time we got a downwinder going. So in the end we actually are racing more! It's been said downwinds are the best practice and that is so true. A sleek 14' DW board is really good enough to cruise around with on flats with guys on 12'6 race boards, we just get to work a bit harder. The lake gets choppy often enough anyway to make the trade-off worth it and there are plenty of big passenger ships throwing up a wake good enough to glide with a 14' DW board whereas a 12'6 flat water race isn't a great shape to pick these up.
So I think the answer to the OP's question is: boards are coming that you can do both, but it's still a choice of either up-your-game if you want to race (narrow), or pick the more comfortable wide one for easier downwinds at the cost of some flatwater speed.
Yugi, your answer makes total sense to me. At some point I am hoping to have the money to replace my SB Touring 14x30 with a Jimmy Lewis M-14 (2014) or a Bullet 14 V2 - 14x27.5.
It would still be plenty of board for me and should be great on anything but really flat water which I very rarely paddle.
Cheers,
Luc
Keep in mind that it's not just flat water performance. The two boards you mentioned do okay in flat water, really good downwind and side chop. It's up wind that they do really bad.
Quote from: Chilly on July 01, 2014, 05:49:14 AM
Keep in mind that it's not just flat water performance. The two boards you mentioned do okay in flat water, really good downwind and side chop. It's up wind that they do really bad.
Chilly - how does the Bullet 12 go upwind? It's quite a different shape in the nose from the Bullet 14v1 and M14, with less rocker (?) I think, so does it fare better?
Quote from: Area 10 on July 02, 2014, 10:05:49 AM
Quote from: Chilly on July 01, 2014, 05:49:14 AM
Keep in mind that it's not just flat water performance. The two boards you mentioned do okay in flat water, really good downwind and side chop. It's up wind that they do really bad.
Chilly - how does the Bullet 12 go upwind? It's quite a different shape in the nose from the Bullet 14v1 and M14, with less rocker (?) I think, so does it fare better?
Area 10 - Compared to a displacement nose it's significantly slower when facing a headwind, but compared to a Bullet 14
V1 or M14 it's a big improvement (I have paddled both). The Bullet 12 accelerates with any little bump and rolls nicely with side chop. In flat-water it's almost as fast as a displacement race board.
Gary, I posted a detailed response to you on TalkSurf.com (http://forum.talksurf.com/t/combo-board-for-flat-water-racing-downwind/300/2?u=justin) that compares the SIC X-12 and the SIC Bullet 17. The editor is sure better on TalkSurf for writing a review!!!
BTW, TalkSurf.com is giving away two free entries to the July 20th Maliko Maui Paddleboard race, to be raffled off to two users, so it's worth signing up. You've got until Tuesday, July 8 to be entered, and if you're not Maui, you can transfer your entry. Details here (http://forum.talksurf.com/t/prizes-2-race-entries-for-the-july-20th-2014-maui-paddleboard-race/319/2?u=justin).
I made this go-pro video for the TalkSurf.com article that really shows the two boards in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Ceg9Dy430
One board not mentioned here is the Fanatic which goes unreal in DW and can hold it's own in any flatwater race!!
https://vimeo.com/87432214
I got to paddle the Fanatic Flatwater 14' x 26.5 in choppy and flat conditions this weekend. I don't understand why Fanatic calls it a pure flatwater board. I found it to be a very good all-around race board, IMO more so than the Falcon HRS. Just by adjusting your feet a few inches turns it from a flatwater to an ocean board. It was fast, easy to turn, and stable in the chop. It won't do as good as the HRS in a downwind, but a lot better than a pure flatwater board. I would add it to my short list of all-around race boards, the AllStar and Javelin.
Quote from: Chilly on July 01, 2014, 05:49:14 AM
Keep in mind that it's not just flat water performance. The two boards you mentioned do okay in flat water, really good downwind and side chop. It's up wind that they do really bad.
That is a very good point. Are you talking strictly about the original Bullet and M-14 design or has that been improved a lot with the new designs which are "flater"?
We do not have much downwind here other that the return from where you have paddled upwind to :-)
Cheers,
Luc
Quote from: lbenac on July 07, 2014, 09:31:40 AM
Quote from: Chilly on July 01, 2014, 05:49:14 AM
Keep in mind that it's not just flat water performance. The two boards you mentioned do okay in flat water, really good downwind and side chop. It's up wind that they do really bad.
That is a very good point. Are you talking strictly about the original Bullet and M-14 design or has that been improved a lot with the new designs which are "flater"?
We do not have much downwind here other that the return from where you have paddled upwind to :-)
Cheers,
Luc
I really can't comment on the Bullet 14 V2 because I haven't paddled one yet. The new V2 design looks similar to the Bullet 12 which is a big improvement in upwind performance to the Bullet 14 V1, but still you can't compare it to a displacement nose shape with a flatter rocker. Of course I'm generalizing and like everything in this sport you have to compromise on what you want to give up.
I'm also wondering about the newer generation of DW boards that have a flatter rocker with more volume up front and a streamlined nose. It's been mentioned on this thread about DW boards that perform poorly up wind, but boards such as the Dart and newer SIC offerings look like they would do better than older models with more rocker, less volume and the more surf shape nose. I know how nose slap feels and it has to be less efficient than cutting through and even boofing through oncoming waves, but do the new shapes still slap up and over waves or are they cutting through somewhat?
^ The underside of the nose of the Rogue Rage is very slightly domed as opposed to pure flat (or even concave) of other downwind boards and doesn't have huge rocker. In chop and especially upwind it is noticeably better. It doesn't cut the wave like a displacement hull but it slaps a lot less and plows right through. The thing is it is very very good downwind too, feels just like a true planing hull. It really is a good downwind board with a bit of race built in.
Upwind I find it is so much more about the paddler than the board that it hardly matters. I used to tag along a decent group of paddlers on race boards with my surfboard. Upwind in a good breeze was the conditions where I was most even with the others. Flats at a good speed was where I was left behind - once the speed was over the top end of my board.
It's true that for a DW board with big rocker like a Bullet V1 or Jimmy Lewis M14 there is a certain size wind chop that just slaps the hull under the nose and you feel it is slowing the board down. One can limit it a bit by standing further forward than normal.
There's a good discussion on this thread that adds to the dialogue.
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,24418.0.html
The only combo that I can really see is: Downwind / Touring with gear as I can imagine myself riding a 17' board DW one day and tour 20-35 miles the next day on flat water, or any other body of water.
As far as racing, I would have to compare the original question with surfskis:
They kinda work, but not really.
When we get to either extremes, they definitely do not work for us: huge downwind conditions, in my experience, need more rocker, YET rocker will slow you down on a totally flat body of water.
Photo is right, there's a fundamental limitation in rocker design. You can get away with no rocker and go downwind--Cove does it with his Javellin, but I'd hardly call that "good". More like a dog singing. It's not that it's good, it's that fido sings at all.
So am I screwed if I do my first downwinder on a 12'6 custom Bark in Malibu? Or is Malibu "flatwater" relatively speaking?
You'll be fine in Malibu.
I'm waiting for DJ to get his new 2015 Naish Javelin, looking forward to the review. When DJ the DW video king sells his new downwind board to buy a race board, I'm interested.
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,24434.0.html
DJ, you got it yet?
Quote from: yugi on July 24, 2014, 03:00:34 AM
DJ, you got it yet?
No not yet.. but I'm hoping I'll have it in about a week.. Aug 4 is the current official release date..