Having a bit of a challenge learning to stand in lake waves. I know I need to put time in but I can't conceive standing on the board in the lake waves.
Unlike nice rolling ocean waves ( which I am sure is still very challenging to learn) , the Great Lake waves are disorganized , break everywhere and come at you every couple seconds .
I have seen a few videos from the Huron guys , at first glance no big deal until I tried ... now a big deal and very impressive .
Time on the water, keep center of gravity low, bend the knees and lean slightly forward , use my paddle for leverage , don't get discouraged, keep at it .. anything else ?
Any special tips for these kind of waves ?
I want to say that my experience on the ocean is similar to your Great Lake waves. Rarely have I seen nice rolling waves on a glassy bump free surface. Most of the time in So. Cal thare are several swells going of different sizes and from varying directions. The water surface mostly has constant pitch and roll and at times it can be a challenge just to stand. You must concentrate on the approaching set of waves and make a decision within a second or two as to either paddling over into position or to make a quick 180 turn to catch a wave. It is mostly disorganized and challenging just to pick the right wave.
You do however already have the answer in your post. #1 Time on the water #2 don't get discouraged.
A wide wave board will help out greatly.
Other than that, I've tried different foot positions, slighly narrower, slightly forward, slighly back, staggered etc. This could help you find your optimal center of gravity and at the same time give you a genuine reason to fall a bit.
Once I'm up and standing, I try not to look too much at my feet and board, I try to slow down my reaction to every little bump and allow the board to move under me. Hope this helps but it sounds like you are already well on your way.
i'm probably the Huron surfer you're referring too.
the best suggestion i can give is just straight ol' practice. when i first started SUPing on the lakes, i'd go out for 'flat paddles' in really crappy windy chop. if you live on the great lakes you know how gnarly the chop can get here. not only is it an incredible workout in these conditions, it builds up your balance and comfort level in the shlt conditions pretty quick. so the next time there's waves and you're a bit out the back waiting for the sets to come, you're already comfortable with those conditions.
as far as riding the actual waves themselves, it's not a whole lot different honestly then onshore ocean waves. there's less power in the waves, but other then that it's like any other typical onshore beachbreak. any of my gulf of mexico friends from FL or Texas reading this knows what im talking about!
really practice on moving your feet up and down the board, further forward when paddling for a wave, then back once you feel you've caught it.
and yes a wider board will help, i'd never go under 29" wide for the lakes.
good luck man and post some sessions in the forum once you get some good ones in! try coming on down to kincardine on the next good north blow (which unfortunately won't be for a couple months since summer is here)
cheers
You've gotten great advice and encouragement and started out with the answer yourself. Keep after it.
I'll echo staying at 29 or above. 30 has worked well for me. I've also had better luck with boards 10' or longer. I learned on an 11'2 Starboard Blend and have tried a few boards, mostly shorter. I think my next will be a 10'10" pintail custom from Great Lakes shaper Matt Campbell of BlkBox Surf. He built a sweet 9'4 for a guy a bit smaller than me and that guy rips, though, so time on the water helps of course. That board is 30 7/8" wide.
The other thing I'd say is to avoid paddling on your knees. Once you decide you are going to stand up and paddle out, even over big breakers it just becomes the mindset. For me, that is linked to my perception of doability. Keep going out in all conditions.
Thanks for advice and encouragement.
My board is 30 by 10'6' laird/pearson arrow and I weight 155lbs . Getting a fair amount of flatwater practice .Starting to question if I should have purchased more of distance board but need to remember my real dream was to take advantage of the lake waves
I did resort to paddling on my knees on Sunday ... will put an immediate stop to that . Guessing the few times I did go out in the waves they were probably not the best learning conditions but I am listening to your 'paddle in all conditions' tip.
I think that is a great board to learn to surf on the lakes.
A Naish Glide 14 would be an excellent compliment, much better on flatter days, a great fitness board and, of course, an awesome downwinder board. On the eastern shore of Lake Michigan I get many more downwinder distance paddles than I do surf days.
I was out that sunday not far from Sauble actually. Pretty standard wind swell with the wind still blowing onshore. You'll still be able to get rides in waves half or a third that size, so get out there and practice.. and don't worry about spending time on your knees or sitting.. as long as it gets you out in position to ride waves. Takes a summer or two to get comfortable, and you'll never master it.. you'll just want a smaller board as soon as you get too comfortable on that one.
I might be up near 6th Ave on a NW, probably on my orange/white oxbow. See you out there.
a final piece of motivation for you..
Perfect Morning (http://vimeo.com/25426797)
Quote from: gr8laker on June 23, 2011, 06:21:03 AM
a final piece of motivation for you..
Perfect Morning (http://vimeo.com/25426797)
looks like such a nice day out there.
too bad you missed it up here last wednesday man. was a good time and the water is really warming up.
bobtany - I was in the same boat as you, I purchased a 10'6 Laird Pearson Arrow this summer to use up at my lake house near South Haven, Michigan. Learning on the Great Lakes can be a real challenge, especially trying to surf the chaotic waves it produces. Nevertheless, after practicing all summer (since June) I can stand up easily on the board on the choppiest days. (I'm 6'2, 180lbs) being tall did NOT help my cause out there at first. As your equilibrium adjusts, taking your board out on the choppiest/waviest days won't be intimidating.
Catching waves took a few days of practice too, but when you do the board gets some great speed and control (particularly with the quad-fin setup). After getting my ass kicked, when I took my board out on the first wavy day (didn't catch a single wave), I started to practice switching my footing from the traditional "SUP stance" to the "surfer stance" and learning how to (re)balance myself, essentially using only the surfer stance while paddling. It was awkward at first, but I knew that getting used to that feeling would help in the waves. I did this for a few days on flat water, choppy water, semi-wavy water until I got the hang of it. As I expected, catching waves after that came pretty easily
One tip that I can offer you is to switch to the surfer stance a few seconds BEFORE you catch the wave (as it's coming toward you) and paddle hard as feel yourself get sucked in, and then propelled forward as the wave breaks. It's a cheap and easy way catch those waves. I think a lot of people are taught to let the wave catch you first (standing in your traditional SUP stance), and then switch to the surfer stance as you gain speed; I have found this technique awkward and difficult to achieve, though it may be more practical in the ideal peeling-wave ocean setting. Unfortunately, Lake Michigan waves aren't as generous. Also the nose on the 10'6 pearson arrow seems to submerge pretty fast if you try to surf that way. Make sure to keep your back foot pretty far back on that tail when you catch those waves.
Would love to hear a progress report from you, we had some great waves this past Sunday, I was out surfing them for 6 hours, my legs are jello right now.
I have never surfed lakes, but here in the mediterranean, we often surf waves that I think can compare: waves from a very short fetch with a short period (4s).
As other said, go wide. Narrow boards will not "capture" enough power from the gutless waves, and you want the stability in chop.
Then, work on your paddling technique and speed. Short period waves means they travel slowly and with some technique you will be able to paddle at the same speed as the wave, making takeoffs easier.
eldorado trick of the surfing stance is a good one. You may want to actually use the technique for ShortSUPs detailed at: http://www.gongsup.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1623 (http://www.gongsup.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1623) to give you more balance and faster "entry" in the waves.
Once you can catch lake waves easily, I would advise trying short and wide SUPs. Slow waves are still catchable easily by short boards (which can be tricky on fast oceanic swells due to their lack of paddling speed), but are very fun once on the wave as they fit better in the limited space of the short period waves.
Nothing can replace a lot of practice. Unfortunately, you don't get that much surf in the great lakes. It's all about getting out there when you can. A bit of a bigger board will help. I've seen guys here on 11' 6" Naish catch little six inch waves. Not the best, but you still get some stoke. ;D
Eldorado ? I was sidelined due to lower back injury , just getting back into it despite the back problem ( seems to help ). My balance is improving in smaller waves do to time on the water like everybody suggested . Things just start to click .
I weight about 155lbs but feel like I don't have another power . Just did my first short 30 minute race and was normally paddling about 4.5 mph in flat water .
How big are the waves your surfing ? I have been practicing the surf stance a lot while paddling but not sure if I am standing too far fwd or back once I start paddling hard to catch the waves , my assumption was to stand further back . When your in the surf stance paddling hard just before the surge , how far is you front foot from the carrying handle ?
Try not to stand too far back. That may be some of your problem. I find, especially on the bigger boards, That if I stand too far back, the board wants to try and pull out of the wave before I can catch it. What lake are you surfing on?
bobtany - sorry to hear about your back, but glad you're getting back in the water.
The waves I got this past Sunday were about 3-5 feet high, it was right after a storm had cleared, a good day to surf as there wasn't a strong rip tide and the wind was blowing pretty straight east (towards the shore).
I typically stand with my front foot just a few inches behind the carrying handle and my back foot probably 1.5-2 feet from the tail of the board. I couldn't tell you exactly but if I get another surf day I'll try to get someone to take pictures/video. Remember though I'm 6'2-6'3 so my legs are long and have a wider-than normal stretch.
I wouldn't obsess too much over the exact position of where your feet should be. Just be aware, and take advantage of, how your body weight leans towards the front or back. Leaning slightly forward while paddling hard before you're about to catch a wave can increase your chances of catching it, and then putting more weight on the back foot as you ride the wave will prevent the nose of submerging and inhibiting your speed.
When you're practicing the surf stance on normal, non-wavy water, your body will tell you what feels right and your feet will start adjusting. When you're in flat water, you should essentially be able to stand still and balance comfortably in the surf stance, with little (if any) support from the paddle. That should be your foundation of how you surf-stand on the board. Remember it's pretty easy to "pop a wheelie" on that board with its pin-shaped tail so you'll probably know when you're standing too far back!
We surf Puget Sound waves in Seattle. Some are disorganized, some are super clean and quite good, etc. I use different boards depending on the conditions. Longer for downwinders and small days (or small waves/boats), and shorter for big steep waves which for us can get up to 6' faces. A friend long boarded one last week.
A few videos on my youtube page. Boards are both the Bark 14 Exped and Laird 12-1: http://www.youtube.com/user/tugwakesurfer?feature=mhee (http://www.youtube.com/user/tugwakesurfer?feature=mhee)
Thanks guys
I 'try' and surf at Sauble Beach , Canadian side of Lake Huron.
From your input, I am guessing that I may be standing too far back when trying to paddle hard to catch the wave . The waves I am trying are either too big to learn and just not strong enough to compensate for my poor technique
This is starting to shape up like my fly fishing experience to learn patience ... tried for a year and caught nothing ...
I know it is my technique and impatience SO logically I applied money to the problem and purchased a 14ft Bark expedition last nigth. May no be able to surf but should get a bit of a glide
Somebody said my board would probably surf/glide better if I took it out of the board bag ...
sauble was sick yesterday, did you get out during the clean up around noon? there was a drowning later in the afternoon.. put a shadow on the day to say the least
Be there when the sun comes up. So simple, yet often overlooked important point.
Sleepyheads surf wind blown misery.
DW... amen to that. Here on Maui the mountain wind convects downhill and offshore all night until the land heats up bringing the wind machine into full gear. Tuning into your local convection cycles will tune you into the time to go.
I just bought my first SUP and was out on Lake Ontario Saturday in flat conditions. Sunday I wanted to go out but it was windy so I figured I should buy a leash first. By the time all was done it was 5pm and too late for me to get out. On my way home I decided to stop by Ashbridges anyway to see how the water looked. The waves were perfect to try to learn on. 2-3 footers that were tailor made for a SUP. I didn't have my board with me (and needed to be home in about 20 minutes) so I missed out. Being such a newb I probably would have bailed alot but I have surfed before so I really regretted it. There were a few surfers out at Ashbridges who caught a few decent waves too.
Looking forward to getting out there in the fall and hopefully catching a few waves.
Just a quick update ,basically was giving up on surfing and been using the Bark expedition exclusively doing long paddles when I am not kite surfing. For kicks I pulled out my Laird and gave surfing one more try .. glad I did. Caught a dozen waves . Figured out I was standing way too far back going into the waves also wasting my time trying to catch them way far out before they break . Standing a little forward and catching them at the right time did the trick
Still a long ways to go but this has renewed my enthusiasm and given me some hope.
Thanks again for all the tips and support
bobtany,
I went out yesterday...well tried to go out is a better way of putting it. I was at ashbridges bay and was surprised to see 3-4 foot waves! Having done some surfing before and lots of body surfing I expected to be able to get out quite easily...was I ever humbled. I tried paddling out on my knees as there was no way I was ready to stand up in that kind of surf and chop. Took a while but I did get out once but could not get my balance enough to stand (to be honest i didn't even try!). I got one great ride in...on my knees...all the way to the beach which was fun. Tried to get out two more times but only managed to get out part way through the breakers. It was fun anyway. Looks like the surf will still be kicking up tonight so I'm going to try again.
It was pretty sloppy but there were quite a few surfers out and at least two other sup guys. One was catching a few waves. I watched him for a while after i gave up and was relieved to see that he was falling off quite a bit...it made me feel like I shouldn't worry so much about looking bad out there.
abay was a mess yesterday... But I've only SUPd waves there a couple times, so it was good to get a feel for the different breaks. I'll be back out I think late afternoon as the wind dies. I'm on the orange and white oxbow.
Bobtany,
That expedition will be a.decent downwinder board if you get out in the right conditions. I paddle a Glide 14 on downwinders on Lake MI often, sometimes I struggle with whether to surf or do a downwinder, a good problem to have. For me, in the middle of the east shore of Lake MI, either a strong north or strong south wind creates big swells running parrallel to shore. I'll get anywhere from a quarter mile to a full mile offshore and paddle with thebig swell, to a destination sometimes several miles, or ten or more down the shore. You'll learn about where to position yourself on the board and how to use footwork to stay in the wave.
Great Lakes surf is well worth learning to ride. Keep at it as long as you are having fun.
Great Lake swell advice?
Start out small, like 1 foot small. Can get plenty of rides that small.
Couple of times been at Grand Haven past summer, on 1 - 2 foot waves, worked just fine.
Plus an inland lake close by, usually hit that during heavy winds. The lake produces a small sup ridable wave.
Want to thank everybody for their advice again. When I was unable to catch a wave , none of the tips seemed to work or make much sense .... now that I can catch some , it all makes a lot of sense. Start small ( I assumed you needed big waves witch normally came with the big wind because of time of day I went out).
I also saw post some place else talking about getting back on the board and did not have any clue to stand toward the front as I paddled in then move back once the board got going ( this was the single biggest mistake) Basically was way at the back slowing the board down , so figured the waves were never big enough and kept trying in bigger waves that would trash me . Really glad I did not sell my surf oriented SUP and looking forward to the Lake Huron and Erie this fall .
when not surfing - paddling out or across chop, keep your paddle active - having in the water wil make you more stable than out. feather the blade into wind and on your return to the nose with it, keep it low near the surface so if you need to slap the blade face on the surface as a brace, it's already there.
i surf freighter waves and wind waves all the time near Seattle. Puget Sound is essentially a big saltwater lake. it gets big on 30 kt days - confused waves, but there are fun rides if your'e not picky and come from the pov of "those aren't waves" :) depending on the steepness of your waves, if they're good ol' wind waves, you need a longer board. to do a downwinder per se you need length to get speed. wind waves don't have the power of ocean waves (mostly) thus you have to work harder to get them. that said, you'll work less with a longer board as longer is faster. try a 14' Bark Expedition or similar - a race like board with a planning (flat) hull.
if you do have steep waves, be patient in what you choose to ride. such as in the ocean, wait for a nice set - patience - then take a steep set. cheers
By way of an update.
What a difference a few days make. I have had the chance to get out on some decent sized wave days now on Lake Ontario at Ashbridges. Where before I thought "how will I be able to get out through these waves" now I quite easily can paddle out standing through the breakers. Also, I can now stand while the waves pass me as I have the board perpendicular to the waves so that I can see what I want to catch.
I'm still not great at catching the waves, but have had a few great rides all the way into the beach.
Now, large boat wakes are nothing, and some big 4-5 foot messy wind swells are pretty easy to handle.
Next step is catching more of the ones I am trying to paddle for.