Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: Badger on December 02, 2016, 02:05:06 PM
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These were posted over on the Breeze.
https://vimeo.com/188093594
https://vimeo.com/188255088
https://vimeo.com/192227061
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A most interesting and informative set of board building videos. I found it most enjoyable to watch.
Thanks for taking the time to post all three videos.
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https://vimeo.com/192227865
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Really good stuff. Jimmy has his own unique approach. Some very interesting ideas. I wonder why he doesn't just do vacuum bagging though--it's a bit more work and materials, and I've tried the barrier-only approach a few times, especially for small stuff, but I sure like the lower weight and better incorporation of the layers. He probably simply likes his own approach and it certainly works for him. It's not money, that's for sure. Jimmy lives a relatively simple life and I doubt anyone in the world sells a lot more boards.
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Gotta say this was one very generous gesture from Jimmy Lewis. Most people at his level in any given industry would never provide this sort of demonstration/education to plebs. Building boards may not be curing cancer but information like this is gives us - boarders - a better sense of our roots. Great stuff. Badger ..you should put this in General Discussion for wider exposure. It's one of the better recent postings.
Jim
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Fantastic
Great to see how it is done from the best in the biz
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Great video series. I totally appreciate Jimmy spending the time to do this. I learn a little from every glasser I know, but there is always more than one way to do anything. I don't know if poor man's V-bag is the appropriate title. Kinda. .. If he had wet tabled the fabric first, the plastic cover would have less effect. Vacuum bagging creates a bond between layers and sandwich composites that can't be reached by merely sticking plastic to the the wet epoxy at the same atmospheric pressure.
At first the title led me to think he has a technique to creating sandwich composites by some simple means. But instead, IMO he's making up for not wet tabling. Probably saving on some sanding time too. Surf boards and some custom standup surf boards, V-bagging is not common. With longer Sup's especially racing boards V-bagging is a must to keep the strength up, the weight down and get the fabric and composite materials to fit tight into the odd contours of racing boards.
The videos explain the difference between micro balloons and Cabosil, and when to use them. A ton to be learned from these Videos, and Jimmy does a great job explaining them in layman's terms.
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Very insightful especially the rocker line jig he uses. Great way of insuring the board retains the all important rocker when glassed. He may not use a vacuum bag setup as it would require a more elaborate jig to prevent the rocker from changing.
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There should be one or two more on the way. Stay tuned.
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Vacuum bagging in a whole added process that requires special equipment, special ply products and technique. I just got a pump for V-bagging. I'm going to have to get some peal ply and bagging material. Probably crush a bunch pieces of test foam before I get it figured out.
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His website has kind of flourished this year as his kid Marlon has started keeping an eye on it, changing things for the better there it seems......personal service as well.
just a shameless plug for good stuff from a fan
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Mad skills. Cool to see a true expert zoom through a complex project.
Love the downdraft dust collection.
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Jimmy is such a pro and makes it looks so easy. Awesome tips.
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https://vimeo.com/192229115
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Sweet!
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I love the noise those resin encrusted shoes make shuffling across the floor. Mine do the same. They get slippery to walk in with all the resin stuck to the bottom. It's why you shuffle. 😃
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Badger, thanks for the videos. I agree it's very nice of him to show his shop and good practices.
The HD foam tutorial is awesome.
The extra glass nose and tail also make sense.
Does anyone else do the 'loaded' epoxy like he shows on sealing the HD foam and before the normal fill coat? Did he use fumed silica on the foam and glass spheres on the first fill coat?
The guys at Sways talk about 'cheater' fill coats, using a small batch of plain epoxy and a squeegee to affect the surface of the lam (fill pin holes, clean off dust, disturb any other contaminants to equalize surface tensions) before doing a traditional fill coat. My understanding is that the cheater is pressed on hard and mostly pulled off. Once the remains of the cheater coat start to set, the normal wet fill coat is done.
I'd like to try Jimmy's methods sometime.
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Great series...Jimmy Lewis does a really nice job of showing most of the parts of the glassing process... and the care that must be taken.
Gives us a nice appreciation for how much work goes into building the boards that we ride.
The most impressive part for me personally, was his deft touch with the grinder..... so easy to let that thing get away from you when sanding sensitive areas.
I have a very light, multi speed, that protects me from taking too much..... his experience and touch makes it look easy. It's not.
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@Badger
Just reviewed Day 4, 5, and 6 videos and I'm really enjoying how sups are made. Thanks for posting all of these videos.
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Great to see these and the wonderful attention to detail in a super efficient and experienced way. I worked for 2 weeks in a fibreglassing shop in Sydney making small dingys / boats and decorative panels for shopping centres in the 80s and that shuffling around on glass fibre encrusted shoes on a glass fibre encrusted floor brings back memories... this was the only job I have ever been fired from. Even though I'd built my own 8'6" windsurfing wave board before I took the job, I was not cut out for glassing day in and day out... It is a skill which even after 2 weeks I had not even begun to master... and the boss, after seeing a pitifully badly made dingy getting stuck in the mold because I had not prepared it correctly before laying down the gel coat decided enough was enough...and very professionally told me that my services where no longer needed...
Seeing this you can tell Jimmy has a rare talent in (hot mix) bucket-fulls.
So good to see a master at work.
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https://vimeo.com/192979406
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Pretty cool series that shows every one a little more of what goes in to a basic traditional custom board + his plastic rap technique however not a fan at all of people using polyester as a gloss coat on top of epoxy, all the boards i have had to repair with this have had issues with chips, shatters, adhesion and never last well and are a pain to repair, just seams crazy to use poly at the very last step when you have built a nice durable epoxy board.
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The lesson everyone should take away from this....don't order a gloss finish. Now you see all the extra weight you just added.
Most guys today spray paint the gloss on. Also adds weight.
I cab-o-sil my cheaters coats too. It made a massive improvement in the quality of my hot coats. I thought it was my little secret trick. I guess not 😃
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Pretty cool series that shows every one a little more of what goes in to a basic traditional custom board + his plastic rap technique however not a fan at all of people using polyester as a gloss coat on top of epoxy, all the boards i have had to repair with this have had issues with chips, shatters, adhesion and never last well and are a pain to repair, just seams crazy to use poly at the very last step when you have built a nice durable epoxy board.
It just comes down to production cost. A gloss finish on epoxy requires a multi-step sanding (to 2000-3000 grit) and polishing operation that adds significant cost in man hours and supplies to the process. If everyone else in the industry shortcuts this process, and you don't, you will eat the extra costs.
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Caution...master at work...most home builders trying to sand the laminate lap with a stiff 8" pad with 40-60 paper on a 5,000 rpm grinder are heading for disaster. Same with sanding out hot coat with 60 gritt with 8" pad on a 1750-2,500 rpm sander/polisher.
Pay close attention to how he keeps the tool moving quickly and continuously. These aggressive grits can eat into/through the laminate in a heartbeat.
One main thing to take away from this is even a pro like Jimmy spends a considerable amount of time building a board. What he is showing is the accelerated
"Readers digest" version. In today's marketplace a custom board like this is a true bargain considering the time and materials going into it. Where else can you get a hand made piece of art for that kind of money? And you can actually use it for more than a wall decoration.
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Caution...master at work...most home builders trying to sand the laminate lap with a stiff 8" pad with 40-60 paper on a 5,000 rpm grinder are heading for disaster. Same with sanding out hot coat with 60 gritt with 8" pad on a 1750-2,500 rpm sander/polisher.
Pay close attention to how he keeps the tool moving quickly and continuously. These aggressive grits can eat into/through the laminate in a heartbeat.
One main thing to take away from this is even a pro like Jimmy spends a considerable amount of time building a board. What he is showing is the accelerated
"Readers digest" version. In today's marketplace a custom board like this is a true bargain considering the time and materials going into it. Where else can you get a hand made piece of art for that kind of money? And you can actually use it for more than a wall decoration.
+1... I might add that moving the sander fast also keeps from over heating a specific area which will cause delaming. My friend who sands boards for a living, says he always hand sands the rails. He'll go a quick 80 grit then 200 for a sanded finish.
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Pretty cool series that shows every one a little more of what goes in to a basic traditional custom board + his plastic rap technique however not a fan at all of people using polyester as a gloss coat on top of epoxy, all the boards i have had to repair with this have had issues with chips, shatters, adhesion and never last well and are a pain to repair, just seams crazy to use poly at the very last step when you have built a nice durable epoxy board.
It just comes down to production cost. A gloss finish on epoxy requires a multi-step sanding (to 2000-3000 grit) and polishing operation that adds significant cost in man hours and supplies to the process. If everyone else in the industry shortcuts this process, and you don't, you will eat the extra costs.
indeed it does polyester is a breez compared to sand compared to epoxy but that says something about it too! to me doing it all with epoxy you end up with a far higher quality board. I would always sand to 600-800 for a matt Finnish so its not a million miles away to get it to polish. you don't get quite the shine unless you spray a clear coat but i could never bring myself to dump a load of polyester over the top of a nice epoxy board, its something i kinda now associate with a china made board not a custom.
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If anything, Jimmy is making this look *too* easy. Any of us who have attempted doing a decent repair will know how much skill and effort is required for that, never mind building a board from scratch. There are a thousand ways it can all go t*ts up. But is is useful for people to know that this is how boards are built - many newbies just think they are popped out of a mold just as they are and then a deck pad slapped on, stuck in a box and given to the shipping companies. They don't imagine for one minute that each stage is hand done, one at a time, even for "production boards".
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If anything, Jimmy is making this look *too* easy. Any of us who have attempted doing a decent repair will know how much skill and effort is required for that, never mind building a board from scratch. There are a thousand ways it can all go t*ts up. But is is useful for people to know that this is how boards are built - many newbies just think they are popped out of a mold just as they are and then a deck pad slapped on, stuck in a box and given to the shipping companies. They don't imagine for one minute that each stage is hand done, one at a time, even for "production boards".
So right Area 10, the cream of the crop in any discipline always makes the difficult look like child's play.
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Thanks to whoever made the video too. It's hard to shoot and edit a video and we really need them in this sport. Kudos.
Also, yes, don't try a lot of these techniques if you're a first timer. All that sanding he's doing is the pro way. I start at a much higher grit. Longer process but way more room for mistakes. Each board I sneak down a grit but man, he's starting with crazy rough grit! Fast but only for pros.
This and DW's video and all the rest are Godsends for the home builder.
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https://vimeo.com/194402815
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Excellent!
Really like Jimmy's videos.
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All that sanding he's doing is the pro way. I start at a much higher grit. Longer process but way more room for mistakes. Each board I sneak down a grit but man, he's starting with crazy rough grit! Fast but only for pros.
Yeah, my eyes bugged out when he said he started at 40 grit. Especially with that monster grinder.
These videos are awesome. I've been using plastic on my ding repairs for ages, but never thought about using it for a whole board. WAY easier than setting up the whole vac pump/bag.
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The plastic trick is not going to give the same result as a vac bag!
Vac banging is used to consolidate the lamination which improves strength it also is used to remove excess epoxy from a wet layup. The plastic is doing nether of these properly except for perhaps aplying a small amount of surface tension to the top/bottom and on the apex of the rail were the plastic is applying a small amount of pressure.
The plastic trick does however give a nice smooth rail and lap and help fill in some of the weave so perhaps it may mean you can do a slightly thiner hot coat.
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It's curious that Jimmy decided to make a video showing a "cut-the-corners" method rather than the full monty. If he wanted to show how much work and skill goes into making a board then you'd have thought that vac bagging would emphasise that.
Also, wouldn't it be better to decide where the handle goes after you've routed the finbox?
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It's curious that Jimmy decided to make a video showing a "cut-the-corners" method rather than the full monty. If he wanted to show how much work and skill goes into making a board then you'd have thought that vac bagging would emphasise that.
Also, wouldn't it be better to decide where the handle goes after you've routed the finbox?
I can see why he does what he does but after all that effort of doing the plastic (the time consuming bit) you may as well throw it in a bag and consolidate the laminate and have a stronger layup.
it would do and it certainly would have less chance of anything being out but when building boards commercially it all come down to time and how many steps are in the process. If you were to route/install the fin box first then do the handle ect you are looking at probably 2 extra steps which means the board has to be moved from the laminating room back in to the sanding room before going back to the laminating room again so handled aleast twice more so say maybe a 1-2hours more labour and adds any were from maybe 6-24h time to the hole build process so then thats more space that the boards are taking up ect ect Sream lining the build process is probably one of the hardest things about building boards and were the simplest change to construction or problem can add days to a build.
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Intresting that he uses poly on top of epoxy. The pladtic sheeting has no benefit other than less sanding i would imagine. Awesome videos though.
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It's curious that Jimmy decided to make a video showing a "cut-the-corners" method rather than the full monty. If he wanted to show how much work and skill goes into making a board then you'd have thought that vac bagging would emphasise that.
Also, wouldn't it be better to decide where the handle goes after you've routed the finbox?
I can see why he does what he does but after all that effort of doing the plastic (the time consuming bit) you may as well throw it in a bag and consolidate the laminate and have a stronger layup.
it would do and it certainly would have less chance of anything being out but when building boards commercially it all come down to time and how many steps are in the process. If you were to route/install the fin box first then do the handle ect you are looking at probably 2 extra steps which means the board has to be moved from the laminating room back in to the sanding room before going back to the laminating room again so handled aleast twice more so say maybe a 1-2hours more labour and adds any were from maybe 6-24h time to the hole build process so then thats more space that the boards are taking up ect ect Sream lining the build process is probably one of the hardest things about building boards and were the simplest change to construction or problem can add days to a build.
I only meant that wouldn't it be better to route out the fin box and then decide where the handle will go, since when you are routing the box presumably you are removing more material (albeit only a small amount) weight-wise than you will add during the fin box installation. I didn't mean install the box completely and then do the handle - although that would clearly be best I can see that it would be laborious to do that.
It's just SO annoying when the handle is off. I have a Sidewinder with an off-centre handle and it's a constant irritation. Which is a shame because otherwise the build seems very light and durable. So it made me wonder what the process of deciding where to put the handle was.
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That is EXACTLY what Dave Daum and his crew do at Kings. In fact, they put the pad on and balance with fins, determine the correct location, and then rout,and install the handle.
Always in the right location for perfect balance..
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Jimmy does explain that with a full deck-pad he does not include the pad in the balance exercise.
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Looking at this video it doesn't seem any harder to vac bag it properly than to use the "poor mans method".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLTXB5wNfa0
And, regarding my previous comment, definitely start with the 40 grit. I just did my first fin box replacement and even with 50 grit on my random orbit sander it took a long time to get through the 2 layers of glass and down into the blue tape.
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Those Nelson videos are fun to watch, thanks for the reminder!
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Yeah, my main take away from this is how time-consuming a custom board is. So, I'm wondering what's the differential in construction tactics between what he just did and what the factory does? What is lost in translation?
It would also be cool to go through his thought process on the initial design. In any case, great set of videos.
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The factory JL boards are a sandwich construction. So that means EPS foam core with Fiberglas layer on top of that and then PVC foam covered by another layer of carbon or fibreglass depending on if it is a carbon or fibreglass board and then paint. Here is the link http://www.jimmylewis.ca/?page_id=3970 http://www.jimmylewis.ca/?page_id=3970 (http://www.jimmylewis.ca/?page_id=3970)
The factory build is different and more durable construction but most likely much harder for custom construction.
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Yes, these are great videos. I have used this plastic technique before on windsurfers, both with and without a vacuum. If you do a vacuum on this, especially with peel ply and stuff to soak up the excess resin you will end up with a thin laminate which will be much more ding and dent prone. (been there, done that) That could be solved with another layer of glass for a thicker laminate, but perhaps that alters the board's flex properties too much(?)
I think this plastic method does help compress the laminate a bit since he compresses and pulls things, and with no air able to get back in, it could stop the weave from springing apart quite as much as it might with nothing on top of it. It seems to really help wrapping the rails, which is where i have found it works really well, although he not surprisingly does it better than I do. Clearly on a race board, or a board with a sandwich construction this will not give the lightest possible result, but I think it is not simply a case of cutting corners and not doing it right. It makes sense for this type of construction.
One thing I might add it that if you do something like this and end up with a few bubbles that are a long way from the rails, if you are wrinkling things too much and not getting them out cleanly, just use a pin to make a hole to let the air out and press it down cleanly. But, of course,I'm sure Jimmy never has to do that!
Good to see he's using Chinook boxes too. Some boxes and so flimsy.
Peter
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Looking at this video it doesn't seem any harder to vac bag it properly than to use the "poor mans method".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLTXB5wNfa0
And, regarding my previous comment, definitely start with the 40 grit. I just did my first fin box replacement and even with 50 grit on my random orbit sander it took a long time to get through the 2 layers of glass and down into the blue tape.
You do realize that this is Storm, who is probably the world's best glasser, by a big margin. Huge margin. Watching him glass is like watching Yo Yo Ma play cello. Yeah, it looks so fucking easy.
You might as well think you're going to learn to surf by watching Kai Lenny surf. This is the Kai of glassing. I've watched Storm glass in person. Trust me, Nothing to be learned here, move along.
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Do you have a link or know where to get the plastic that JL uses for his PM vacuum bagging?
Thx
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The plastic he uses is just super cheap painter's tarp, the cheapest, super thin crap you buy at home depot. That works best for this. Of course he has mastered this method and it's not easy. this is essentially what I did with peel ply the other day on the top board of GF2. I would have used plastic if I had some handy, but by the time I realized I wanted to wrap the edges all I had handy was peel ply.
Plastic won't reduce the excess resin like peel ply will, and it doesn't give that great "tooth" that makes the next layer adhere so well, but for work like this it's best.
You can tell Jimmy is just super-freaking-human at this because his tinted glass is as consistent as paint. That ain't normal. He cracked me up talking about not wasting epoxy--I've never mixed a batch of epoxy that large in my life. I bet half of that went in the trashcan. Jimmy's shoes are as heinous as they sound--2/3 epoxy and he wears them barefoot. I wouldn't put those on my feet for a free custom board.
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JL did look like he filled it to the top and wasn't to worried about catching the run off! But did mention it was expensive and didn't like to waste it! Great job on the video, so much talent and experience!
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The floor in his shop has little mountain ranges around the base of the glassing stands. Jimmy is unusual in that he does a lot of his own glassing for his custom boards and prototypes--maybe all of it. Most shapers use a glasser to do that.
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Looking at this video it doesn't seem any harder to vac bag it properly than to use the "poor mans method".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLTXB5wNfa0
And, regarding my previous comment, definitely start with the 40 grit. I just did my first fin box replacement and even with 50 grit on my random orbit sander it took a long time to get through the 2 layers of glass and down into the blue tape.
You do realize that this is Storm, who is probably the world's best glasser, by a big margin. Huge margin. Watching him glass is like watching Yo Yo Ma play cello. Yeah, it looks so fucking easy.
You might as well think you're going to learn to surf by watching Kai Lenny surf. This is the Kai of glassing. I've watched Storm glass in person. Trust me, Nothing to be learned here, move along.
That was a very cool video, never saw a board glassed like that before.