Just finished my review of the Cedrus mast. I'm unafilliated with any brand and compared it to my experiences with other masts. Check it out if you're interested!
Evolution Surf Review
Evolution Surf Review
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#1
Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Review: Cedrus Evolution Surf mast for winging in the Gorge.
July 26, 2024, 02:07:12 PM #2
Classifieds / Assorted foils, wings and boards for sale.
February 25, 2024, 02:14:27 PM
Clearing out all of my extras. Let me know if you have questions or need pictures. All my gear is located in the Portland/Columbia River Gorge area. Buyer pays shipping and transaction fees.
Foils:
Cloud IX fs850 - used good condition $500
Cloud IX fs1000 - used excellent condition $525
Cloud IX 66cm high mod carbon mast - Like new $450
I have extra fuses and stabs if you need them too, otherwise I'll just keep them for my other Cloud IX gear.
Wings:
Strike v3 3m - New: flown once for demo. $700
Ocean Rodeo Glide Aluula 3m - Excellent condition. One small canopy poke professionally repaired by airtime. $600
Boards:
Freedom Fusion 4'9"x19.9" 38.1l - New $500
Kalama e3 prone/dw 5'3"x22" 83l - 35 sessions. Refinished $600 with bag.
Foils:
Cloud IX fs850 - used good condition $500
Cloud IX fs1000 - used excellent condition $525
Cloud IX 66cm high mod carbon mast - Like new $450
I have extra fuses and stabs if you need them too, otherwise I'll just keep them for my other Cloud IX gear.
Wings:
Strike v3 3m - New: flown once for demo. $700
Ocean Rodeo Glide Aluula 3m - Excellent condition. One small canopy poke professionally repaired by airtime. $600
Boards:
Freedom Fusion 4'9"x19.9" 38.1l - New $500
Kalama e3 prone/dw 5'3"x22" 83l - 35 sessions. Refinished $600 with bag.
#3
Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / 85l Sunova Carver: Gorge Review
February 21, 2024, 08:23:05 PM
85l Sunova Carver: Gorge Review
*This is a long post.
Disclaimer: I was not paid or asked to write this review. I'm a waterman who enjoys writing, crunching numbers, learning from my data analysis, and sharing knowledge with others. Hopefully you find this write up as useful to your progression as I have to mine.
I've wrapped up my initial thoughts and experiences on the Sunova Carver and am sharing the info for anyone wanting to pull the trigger before the upcoming season.
Pre-review reminder: In my opinion, the most important thing you can to do progress your riding is to learn and identify what kind of rider you are, and want to be. Every foil, wing, and board is going to enhance, or hinder, certain aspects of various rider's styles. Once you know what your style and preferred direction is, equipment data and reviews become much more valuable to you.
Rider skill and style:
I consider myself an intermediate with advanced skills in my stylistic pursuit. After approximately 200 days of wing foiling I still have little to no interest in learning wing tricks or jumping. I prefer fast rail to rail surfing enhanced by my wing or casual/stylish/flowy riding when flagged out riding swell. I learned the basics of DW SUP and further identified that I prefer to foil "down the line" like a surfer on a wave (which is commonly across the wind here), more than I like going straight downwind and surfing back and forth on swell.
Why I bought this board:
I have a very strong preference for riding small wings and foils. I wanted a board that was going to help me ride winds lulling below 10 knots with a wing no larger than my 4.2m and foils smaller than my 1000. At the time of purchase I needed my 1150 in order to ride winds that light. At the extreme high end, I wanted a board that was fast on the water to allow for tiny foils and 2m wings to be used in winds in 40-60 knots. My previous board really needed an 850cm foil underneath, even in the most extreme winds.
Foils and wings used were all Cloud IX fs range unless otherwise noted. I have an 8.5 aspect ratio on all my foils except the fs900 which is 10.1.
The Basics:
Sunova does a good job of giving info on shape, design, dims, goal, intended rider, all of that great stuff on their website. I highly recommend you look there for all of your basic information on this board.
https://sunovasurfboards.com/en/legends/casey/carver
Testing Data:
Board information:
85l Sunova Carver. 5'10"x20" and 4.89kg. No footstrap inserts, vapor construction, both of which are free alterations. (standard construction and footstraps bring expected weight to 6kg).
Note on alterations: Sunova will customize nearly anything you want on their boards for what I consider to be very reasonable prices.
Previously, I came from owning four consecutive Kalama boards:
5'10"x28.875" 123l e3
4'8"x26" 83l e3
8'x21" 111l Barracuda
5'3"x22" 83l e3
I also did quick single ride demos on approximately 10 other boards in the last year ranging from 40-80l.
Rider weight: 99kgs with a soaked winter wetsuit and impact vest on. 82kgs in summer with boardshorts (untested at the lighter weight).
BAR+GF= 4.36
Total time spent in flight on the Carver for this review: 12.5 hours
Wind and water notes: It's cold in the Gorge right now. Water temps are around 39 degrees and air temps are usually in the 40's when I'm riding. Winds have a tendency to be gusty this time of year (20 knot range). I tested a mix of extreme east and mild west winds.
Lightest lulls: 6 knots west wind, east current with my 1000, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 4.2m SLE.
Lightest average wind speed: 10 knots west wind, east current with my 1000, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 4.2m SLE.
Strongest gust: 43 knots east wind, east current with 900, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 2.5m OR Glide A wing.
Strongest average wind speed: 35 knots east wind, east current with 900, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 2.5m OR Glide A wing.
Foils tested: 700, 850, 900, 1000, 1150. All with Catalyst stab. 66cm and 76cm masts were used.
Wings tested: 4.2m and 3.5m Cloud IX plus 3m and 2.5m Ocean Rodeo Glide A.
Foil selection leading up to Carver purchase: Almost 100% use of my 850 for 20 straight sessions leading up to the my first on the Carver.
Foil selection since acquiring the Carver: 850, 700, 700, 700, 700, 1150, 1000, 900, 900, 900 (900 is a new 10.1 AR vs the 8.5 of others and takes off in between the 700 and 850).
Narrative:
Getting new equipment in the middle of the winter is always a little nerve racking. We have extreme winds and painfully cold temps so changing your kit when the weather isn't all fun in the sun can be stressful. However, my first day out I rigged pretty aggressively and had light winds for my first rides. I was delighted to be riding my 850 with a 4.2m wing in 13 knots of west wind with lulls down to 9 knots in swirling storm winds and rain (this normally required my 1150). My second day was just as light, and I was able to ride my 700.
On those first days I immediately I noticed that while the board is undeniably quick on the water, the most impressive thing was its release. There is something about the hull shape that feels incredibly "not sticky." Better than any hull I've personally ridden. In light wind where my last board would occasionally grab and throw me over the nose when trying to pump onto foil, the Carver keeps driving forward and releasing water when I pump (is this because of the "flat to flipped nose" rocker?) Most excitingly, it's snappier in the air than my 5'3"x22" 83l Kalama e3 at 5.23kg. This board LOVES to carve rail to rail, better than any I've ever experienced. I expect this is due to a combination of being .34kg lighter, 2" narrower, and having a more pointed/lower profile nose. Plus, despite being 7" longer in total length, the Carver only shows 2.5" more nose in front of the mast. My mast is positioned just barely in front of center in the box. I could theoretically try to nudge it forward to decrease this even more. All of this adds up to a sporty comparison to my last board. Match all of that with the fact that it activates a smaller foil with the same effort and wind and you can see the performance benefits are piling up.
I continued to click through more sessions on the Carver in various conditions. Light winds to heavy with foils from 700-1150. With each session the Carver had me consistently out on wings that were up to 2 full sizes smaller than others on the water as well as foils as much as 500cm smaller than other riders out with me.
I very quickly found myself gravitating to my two foils with the highest takeoff requirements (700 and 900) and am pleased with the way this board performs when using both of them. The vapor Carver has enough weight that you still feel a natural drive and flow to your riding when turning rail to rail, top to bottom, on swell of all sizes. I really like this. Feeling the board push back and return to my feet with just enough pressure to ensure me it's still along for the ride and ready for the next turn is confidence inspiring. The narrow design of the board keeps all of its weight well balanced underfoot despite plenty of big frontside and backside tip breaches at wind speeds from 10-40 knots. Coming from SUP surfing I'm comfortable moving my feet on the board while in flight and the Carver welcomes this without issue. Touchdowns are practically inconsequential as the shape, length, and weight of the board make it skip off the water.
For the novice to intermediate riders: First off, Sunova recommends this board for intermediate to pro level riders and I think that is accurate. Why? I assume because this board is going to feel tippy if compared to the traditional beginner boards, especially in light winds. If you are considering moving to a narrow board, make sure your water starts are fast. No casual knee starts where you flip your wing into position and hold it in one hand. If your wing is in the air, your hands had better be on the handles.
Also worth noting for beginners: I've always felt like switching feet was easier on a narrow board. First, it's harder to get your feet into the wrong position. Second, the drive and longer weight distribution in front of and behind the foil feels like it buys you an extra second of time while also forcing correct decisions. So, if you are at all nervous about this element I would tell you that I, personally, find foot switches easier on boards like this. I tested the Carver with my 700 and 66cm mast, my twitchiest and least stable kit, and there were no issues on gybes and foot switches.
For intermediate to advanced riders: This board is going to give you the freedom to access the smallest foils and wings in your quiver. Along with that, it has incredible performance in the air that will not slow your foils down. I've found that I prefer having a little bit of board length when performing my most aggressive turns which lends itself well to getting board feedback while you are laid over and quickly going rail to rail.
Above all else the following questions/statements in regard to stability are the most inquired about:
1. "The Carver will be too tippy in choppy waters. You'll never be able to water start it when it's really windy."
Response: I, personally, have not had issues. I was riding 21" and 22" boards before this (130 sessions worth). Yes, this board is tippy if you are slow to get your wing in the air and hands in position. Expect this board to command you to speed up your water starts. Don't be confused thinking this is aimed at light winds. It is a high performance board and what you lose in a handful of water starts is gained back many times over by the use of smaller foils and wings.
2. Do you think this is a good choice as a light wind board?
Answer: It can perform well in light winds. However, this board is at its worst for stability in light wind. If you don't have wind in your sail, you very well might just tip over, I know I have. I would say its ability to slog is poor. If you are an experienced light wind rider this board will give you high end performance in light winds. If you are a novice who is exploring light winds and narrow boards I think you would be best suited with a shortened, downwind board like the Aviator Downwind 22.5. This will give you FAR more stability in ultralight winds, will allow you to use tiny wings and foils, and will allow you to grow into the Carver down the road. If you want a dedicated light wind only board, again, I would consider a small DW board that will give you the performance gains matched with nice slog your way home stability.
Board Driven Accomplishments:
1. I don't think I ever expected to be on foil with my 700 under 10 knots using a normal sized wing board. A full DW board, yes. My 850, yes. However, I have now had multiple sessions where the average wind speed was 12-13 knots with the lulls below 10 knots and the Carver enabled me to use my 700 with 4.2m SLE without a hitch.
2. In extreme winds, I was immediately able to start using my 700 by upgrading to this board (2m wings are incredibly sensitive and you need a fast board to use them if the winds are gusty). My 700, as well as my high aspect 900, both have harder takeoffs but are so efficient moving through the water that without them, winging in 40-55 knots is just miserable. The intricacies of high wind riding are many and deserve an entire write up on their own.
To get the most out of this board:
Plan to buy a smaller foil and use smaller wings. If you are buying this board purely to get easier water starts with your same wing and foil, yes, you will experience that. However, you will be selling this board short. Don't look at it as a casual upgrade. Look at it as a full quiver transition. This board will beg for a high performance foil and will really show you it's full potential when you give it that.
Summary:
The Carver has immediately met my goal of using smaller wings and foils at both the light, and heavy wind levels. It is currently my all time favorite board and the only thing I would consider changing if I was ordering another would be to put some custom graphics on it. I would also be intrigued to try a vapor 6'2"x20" 95l Carver in the future purely for comparison. I'd like to see how its stability and slogging feels. I'd also be interested to see how much faster it feels on the water. I do not see the need for any other board in my personal quiver.
How to order:
Sunova has dealers worldwide so everyone has a way to get ahold of their boards. I wanted some customizations on mine so I reached out to Christian, the owner of Poseidon Paddle and Surf in Santa Monica California. Their website shows them carrying what looks to be the entire lineup of Sunova surfboards, sups, and foilboards which gave me confidence that they would nail my order. The ordering process was smooth despite my requested alterations. My board showed up faster than expected and I have nothing but great things to say about Poseidon as a shop, Christian as the owner, and Sunova as a company.
https://www.poseidonstandup.com/products/sunova-carver-foil-board?_pos=3&_sid=6ce4c76c9&_ss=r
Thank you:
Huge thanks to Sunova for bringing this board into production as well as thanks to Marcus Tardrew for designing it. Big thanks to all my friends and riding buddies who make the coldest winter conditions so much more enjoyable.
Hope to see you on the water,
Bryan Lee
*This is a long post.
Disclaimer: I was not paid or asked to write this review. I'm a waterman who enjoys writing, crunching numbers, learning from my data analysis, and sharing knowledge with others. Hopefully you find this write up as useful to your progression as I have to mine.
I've wrapped up my initial thoughts and experiences on the Sunova Carver and am sharing the info for anyone wanting to pull the trigger before the upcoming season.
Pre-review reminder: In my opinion, the most important thing you can to do progress your riding is to learn and identify what kind of rider you are, and want to be. Every foil, wing, and board is going to enhance, or hinder, certain aspects of various rider's styles. Once you know what your style and preferred direction is, equipment data and reviews become much more valuable to you.
Rider skill and style:
I consider myself an intermediate with advanced skills in my stylistic pursuit. After approximately 200 days of wing foiling I still have little to no interest in learning wing tricks or jumping. I prefer fast rail to rail surfing enhanced by my wing or casual/stylish/flowy riding when flagged out riding swell. I learned the basics of DW SUP and further identified that I prefer to foil "down the line" like a surfer on a wave (which is commonly across the wind here), more than I like going straight downwind and surfing back and forth on swell.
Why I bought this board:
I have a very strong preference for riding small wings and foils. I wanted a board that was going to help me ride winds lulling below 10 knots with a wing no larger than my 4.2m and foils smaller than my 1000. At the time of purchase I needed my 1150 in order to ride winds that light. At the extreme high end, I wanted a board that was fast on the water to allow for tiny foils and 2m wings to be used in winds in 40-60 knots. My previous board really needed an 850cm foil underneath, even in the most extreme winds.
Foils and wings used were all Cloud IX fs range unless otherwise noted. I have an 8.5 aspect ratio on all my foils except the fs900 which is 10.1.
The Basics:
Sunova does a good job of giving info on shape, design, dims, goal, intended rider, all of that great stuff on their website. I highly recommend you look there for all of your basic information on this board.
https://sunovasurfboards.com/en/legends/casey/carver
Testing Data:
Board information:
85l Sunova Carver. 5'10"x20" and 4.89kg. No footstrap inserts, vapor construction, both of which are free alterations. (standard construction and footstraps bring expected weight to 6kg).
Note on alterations: Sunova will customize nearly anything you want on their boards for what I consider to be very reasonable prices.
Previously, I came from owning four consecutive Kalama boards:
5'10"x28.875" 123l e3
4'8"x26" 83l e3
8'x21" 111l Barracuda
5'3"x22" 83l e3
I also did quick single ride demos on approximately 10 other boards in the last year ranging from 40-80l.
Rider weight: 99kgs with a soaked winter wetsuit and impact vest on. 82kgs in summer with boardshorts (untested at the lighter weight).
BAR+GF= 4.36
Total time spent in flight on the Carver for this review: 12.5 hours
Wind and water notes: It's cold in the Gorge right now. Water temps are around 39 degrees and air temps are usually in the 40's when I'm riding. Winds have a tendency to be gusty this time of year (20 knot range). I tested a mix of extreme east and mild west winds.
Lightest lulls: 6 knots west wind, east current with my 1000, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 4.2m SLE.
Lightest average wind speed: 10 knots west wind, east current with my 1000, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 4.2m SLE.
Strongest gust: 43 knots east wind, east current with 900, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 2.5m OR Glide A wing.
Strongest average wind speed: 35 knots east wind, east current with 900, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 2.5m OR Glide A wing.
Foils tested: 700, 850, 900, 1000, 1150. All with Catalyst stab. 66cm and 76cm masts were used.
Wings tested: 4.2m and 3.5m Cloud IX plus 3m and 2.5m Ocean Rodeo Glide A.
Foil selection leading up to Carver purchase: Almost 100% use of my 850 for 20 straight sessions leading up to the my first on the Carver.
Foil selection since acquiring the Carver: 850, 700, 700, 700, 700, 1150, 1000, 900, 900, 900 (900 is a new 10.1 AR vs the 8.5 of others and takes off in between the 700 and 850).
Narrative:
Getting new equipment in the middle of the winter is always a little nerve racking. We have extreme winds and painfully cold temps so changing your kit when the weather isn't all fun in the sun can be stressful. However, my first day out I rigged pretty aggressively and had light winds for my first rides. I was delighted to be riding my 850 with a 4.2m wing in 13 knots of west wind with lulls down to 9 knots in swirling storm winds and rain (this normally required my 1150). My second day was just as light, and I was able to ride my 700.
On those first days I immediately I noticed that while the board is undeniably quick on the water, the most impressive thing was its release. There is something about the hull shape that feels incredibly "not sticky." Better than any hull I've personally ridden. In light wind where my last board would occasionally grab and throw me over the nose when trying to pump onto foil, the Carver keeps driving forward and releasing water when I pump (is this because of the "flat to flipped nose" rocker?) Most excitingly, it's snappier in the air than my 5'3"x22" 83l Kalama e3 at 5.23kg. This board LOVES to carve rail to rail, better than any I've ever experienced. I expect this is due to a combination of being .34kg lighter, 2" narrower, and having a more pointed/lower profile nose. Plus, despite being 7" longer in total length, the Carver only shows 2.5" more nose in front of the mast. My mast is positioned just barely in front of center in the box. I could theoretically try to nudge it forward to decrease this even more. All of this adds up to a sporty comparison to my last board. Match all of that with the fact that it activates a smaller foil with the same effort and wind and you can see the performance benefits are piling up.
I continued to click through more sessions on the Carver in various conditions. Light winds to heavy with foils from 700-1150. With each session the Carver had me consistently out on wings that were up to 2 full sizes smaller than others on the water as well as foils as much as 500cm smaller than other riders out with me.
I very quickly found myself gravitating to my two foils with the highest takeoff requirements (700 and 900) and am pleased with the way this board performs when using both of them. The vapor Carver has enough weight that you still feel a natural drive and flow to your riding when turning rail to rail, top to bottom, on swell of all sizes. I really like this. Feeling the board push back and return to my feet with just enough pressure to ensure me it's still along for the ride and ready for the next turn is confidence inspiring. The narrow design of the board keeps all of its weight well balanced underfoot despite plenty of big frontside and backside tip breaches at wind speeds from 10-40 knots. Coming from SUP surfing I'm comfortable moving my feet on the board while in flight and the Carver welcomes this without issue. Touchdowns are practically inconsequential as the shape, length, and weight of the board make it skip off the water.
For the novice to intermediate riders: First off, Sunova recommends this board for intermediate to pro level riders and I think that is accurate. Why? I assume because this board is going to feel tippy if compared to the traditional beginner boards, especially in light winds. If you are considering moving to a narrow board, make sure your water starts are fast. No casual knee starts where you flip your wing into position and hold it in one hand. If your wing is in the air, your hands had better be on the handles.
Also worth noting for beginners: I've always felt like switching feet was easier on a narrow board. First, it's harder to get your feet into the wrong position. Second, the drive and longer weight distribution in front of and behind the foil feels like it buys you an extra second of time while also forcing correct decisions. So, if you are at all nervous about this element I would tell you that I, personally, find foot switches easier on boards like this. I tested the Carver with my 700 and 66cm mast, my twitchiest and least stable kit, and there were no issues on gybes and foot switches.
For intermediate to advanced riders: This board is going to give you the freedom to access the smallest foils and wings in your quiver. Along with that, it has incredible performance in the air that will not slow your foils down. I've found that I prefer having a little bit of board length when performing my most aggressive turns which lends itself well to getting board feedback while you are laid over and quickly going rail to rail.
Above all else the following questions/statements in regard to stability are the most inquired about:
1. "The Carver will be too tippy in choppy waters. You'll never be able to water start it when it's really windy."
Response: I, personally, have not had issues. I was riding 21" and 22" boards before this (130 sessions worth). Yes, this board is tippy if you are slow to get your wing in the air and hands in position. Expect this board to command you to speed up your water starts. Don't be confused thinking this is aimed at light winds. It is a high performance board and what you lose in a handful of water starts is gained back many times over by the use of smaller foils and wings.
2. Do you think this is a good choice as a light wind board?
Answer: It can perform well in light winds. However, this board is at its worst for stability in light wind. If you don't have wind in your sail, you very well might just tip over, I know I have. I would say its ability to slog is poor. If you are an experienced light wind rider this board will give you high end performance in light winds. If you are a novice who is exploring light winds and narrow boards I think you would be best suited with a shortened, downwind board like the Aviator Downwind 22.5. This will give you FAR more stability in ultralight winds, will allow you to use tiny wings and foils, and will allow you to grow into the Carver down the road. If you want a dedicated light wind only board, again, I would consider a small DW board that will give you the performance gains matched with nice slog your way home stability.
Board Driven Accomplishments:
1. I don't think I ever expected to be on foil with my 700 under 10 knots using a normal sized wing board. A full DW board, yes. My 850, yes. However, I have now had multiple sessions where the average wind speed was 12-13 knots with the lulls below 10 knots and the Carver enabled me to use my 700 with 4.2m SLE without a hitch.
2. In extreme winds, I was immediately able to start using my 700 by upgrading to this board (2m wings are incredibly sensitive and you need a fast board to use them if the winds are gusty). My 700, as well as my high aspect 900, both have harder takeoffs but are so efficient moving through the water that without them, winging in 40-55 knots is just miserable. The intricacies of high wind riding are many and deserve an entire write up on their own.
To get the most out of this board:
Plan to buy a smaller foil and use smaller wings. If you are buying this board purely to get easier water starts with your same wing and foil, yes, you will experience that. However, you will be selling this board short. Don't look at it as a casual upgrade. Look at it as a full quiver transition. This board will beg for a high performance foil and will really show you it's full potential when you give it that.
Summary:
The Carver has immediately met my goal of using smaller wings and foils at both the light, and heavy wind levels. It is currently my all time favorite board and the only thing I would consider changing if I was ordering another would be to put some custom graphics on it. I would also be intrigued to try a vapor 6'2"x20" 95l Carver in the future purely for comparison. I'd like to see how its stability and slogging feels. I'd also be interested to see how much faster it feels on the water. I do not see the need for any other board in my personal quiver.
How to order:
Sunova has dealers worldwide so everyone has a way to get ahold of their boards. I wanted some customizations on mine so I reached out to Christian, the owner of Poseidon Paddle and Surf in Santa Monica California. Their website shows them carrying what looks to be the entire lineup of Sunova surfboards, sups, and foilboards which gave me confidence that they would nail my order. The ordering process was smooth despite my requested alterations. My board showed up faster than expected and I have nothing but great things to say about Poseidon as a shop, Christian as the owner, and Sunova as a company.
https://www.poseidonstandup.com/products/sunova-carver-foil-board?_pos=3&_sid=6ce4c76c9&_ss=r
Thank you:
Huge thanks to Sunova for bringing this board into production as well as thanks to Marcus Tardrew for designing it. Big thanks to all my friends and riding buddies who make the coldest winter conditions so much more enjoyable.
Hope to see you on the water,
Bryan Lee
#4
SUP General / Kalama vs Sunova Speeed?
February 16, 2024, 06:15:19 PM
Wing foiling has been pretty front and center for me over the last year since I live in the gorge but I'm missing the waves a bit and am looking to chase our local beach break again this year.
I've had great success riding my 9'2"x30" 126l Kalama in past years. It's stable in the nasty wind chop and washingmachine ocean conditions that are the norm here. I really like the quad setup on it as well. However, I've had a glimmer or two of more performance oriented longboards in the past and my mind is wandering towards a new ride.
I'd like to go narrower, I demo'd a 28" board (NSP DC Super X) and was stoked on how fast that board got rail to rail in comparison to my Kalama. If I could find another quad, I'd steer towards that as well but quads seem uncommon in the industry. I have zero desire to go longer, but I also don't crave anything like the misery I had on a 8'2" Quatro Carve Pro. I want to score tons of waves, go fast, and I don't mind moving up, down, side to side on the board to optimize my turns and experience.
So... I'm wondering if the Speeed checks these boxes? My weight seems to fluctuate between 90-100kg when fully soaked in winter vs summer gear so I'm thinking the 8'8" 123l would be the easiest transition. Drops 6" of length, 2" of width, but only 3l less than my Kalama (does this mean super thick rails?). I've comfortably paddled down to 108l on a 9'x28" Kalama but worry that the 8'5" x 27.5" 113l Speeed would feel drastically less stable out the back and would sacrifice too much on the catch for my taste, but I'm open to hearing if I'm wrong about that.
Any thoughts, comments, direction folks can give me?
I've had great success riding my 9'2"x30" 126l Kalama in past years. It's stable in the nasty wind chop and washingmachine ocean conditions that are the norm here. I really like the quad setup on it as well. However, I've had a glimmer or two of more performance oriented longboards in the past and my mind is wandering towards a new ride.
I'd like to go narrower, I demo'd a 28" board (NSP DC Super X) and was stoked on how fast that board got rail to rail in comparison to my Kalama. If I could find another quad, I'd steer towards that as well but quads seem uncommon in the industry. I have zero desire to go longer, but I also don't crave anything like the misery I had on a 8'2" Quatro Carve Pro. I want to score tons of waves, go fast, and I don't mind moving up, down, side to side on the board to optimize my turns and experience.
So... I'm wondering if the Speeed checks these boxes? My weight seems to fluctuate between 90-100kg when fully soaked in winter vs summer gear so I'm thinking the 8'8" 123l would be the easiest transition. Drops 6" of length, 2" of width, but only 3l less than my Kalama (does this mean super thick rails?). I've comfortably paddled down to 108l on a 9'x28" Kalama but worry that the 8'5" x 27.5" 113l Speeed would feel drastically less stable out the back and would sacrifice too much on the catch for my taste, but I'm open to hearing if I'm wrong about that.
Any thoughts, comments, direction folks can give me?
#5
Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Sunova Carver Unboxed
January 02, 2024, 04:50:47 PM
Well, the wait for me is over. My new Carver showed up today and I'm absolutely stoked to get it on the water. Packaging looked good and it arrived without damage other than a few cardboard indents to the deck pad that should refresh themselves over time.
I ordered the 5'10" x 20" 85l version that comes with a stock expected weight of 6kg.
I asked for 2 alterations:
1. No footstrap inserts. (I don't jump).
2. Vapor instead of standard construction. (I was nervous about this decision but I watched Berts old layup videos and felt like I was still going to end up with a solid board).
There was no charge for these alterations.
I threw the board onto the scale and it clocked in at 4.85kg or 10.7lbs which is obviously, significantly below the stock weight and is also over a pound lighter than my e3 Kalama 5'3"x22" 83l.
While I haven't ridden it yet, I calculated the landing point for the foil and it looks like it should land almost dead center in the box. This would result in a total of only 4" added in front of my foil instead of the full 7" (in comparison to the e3). This also means that depending on how the board actually balances in the water, I may be able to cheat the foil farther forward to drop the nose length even more.
Last, I was concerned about the vapor construction and have ridden ultralight boards in the past that gave me pause on how long they would last. My first impression on the Sunova Vapor layup is that it is still quite strong and the board feels just as solid as any other production board I've picked up in the past. Just lighter.
Once I can get a few sessions in on this board I'll write up a formal review, but straight out of the box I'm excited!
Thanks to Sunova for making great gear and thanks to Poseidon Standup for processing my order so quickly.
I ordered the 5'10" x 20" 85l version that comes with a stock expected weight of 6kg.
I asked for 2 alterations:
1. No footstrap inserts. (I don't jump).
2. Vapor instead of standard construction. (I was nervous about this decision but I watched Berts old layup videos and felt like I was still going to end up with a solid board).
There was no charge for these alterations.
I threw the board onto the scale and it clocked in at 4.85kg or 10.7lbs which is obviously, significantly below the stock weight and is also over a pound lighter than my e3 Kalama 5'3"x22" 83l.
While I haven't ridden it yet, I calculated the landing point for the foil and it looks like it should land almost dead center in the box. This would result in a total of only 4" added in front of my foil instead of the full 7" (in comparison to the e3). This also means that depending on how the board actually balances in the water, I may be able to cheat the foil farther forward to drop the nose length even more.
Last, I was concerned about the vapor construction and have ridden ultralight boards in the past that gave me pause on how long they would last. My first impression on the Sunova Vapor layup is that it is still quite strong and the board feels just as solid as any other production board I've picked up in the past. Just lighter.
Once I can get a few sessions in on this board I'll write up a formal review, but straight out of the box I'm excited!
Thanks to Sunova for making great gear and thanks to Poseidon Standup for processing my order so quickly.
#6
Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Calculating your BARG Factor.
December 27, 2023, 04:05:47 PM
I've been working on a simple equation to roughly calculate ease of takeoff for boards based on your board aspect ratio (B.A.R.) and your guild factor (G. Factor).
I've collected data from over 100 different riders and kits at this point and have a few notable data points to share, but need to more deeply refine this equation over time.
Here's how it works:
Calculate your board aspect ratio by simply dividing length by width. Add that number to your guild factor which is calculated by taking your boards liters, and dividing them into your weight in kgs.
My board progression as examples:
85kg rider.
Learned for 10 days on an 8'x30" 170l monster.
AR = 3.2
GF = 1.98
Sum = 5.18 (very easy to get on foil, I don't think I ever turned it, no skill yet. Worth noting I was up and foiling on my first day as a self taught rider with a wing. I also caught every wave I paddled for in the ocean even though I didn't know how to foil and just straight lined them back to shore)
First board I owned:
E3 5'10"x29" 123l 15.5lbs
BAR = 2.41
GF = 1.43
Sum = 3.84 (not to shabby to get on foil, crummy in the air)
E3 4'8"x26 83l 12.7lbs
BAR = 2.15
GF = .97
Sum = 3.12 (least favorite board I've ever owned terrible takeoff)
Barracuda 8'x21" 112l 13lbs
BAR = 4.57
GF = 1.3
Sum = 5.87 (easiest board I've ever had to get on foil and was fun in the air)
E3 5'3"x22" 83l 11.5lbs
BAR = 2.86
GF = .97
Sum = 3.83 (fun to ride and quite quick to take off in all but the most extremely light winds)
Custom 6'3"x20" 83l 9lbs
BAR = 3.75
GF = .97
Sum = 4.72 (extremely fast off the water, track boxes were awkwardly placed so I didn't get a good feel for it in the air unfortunately)
Sunova Carver 5'10"x20" 85l (arrives next week, weight tbd)
BAR = 3.5
GF = 1
Sum = 4.5 (unridden, testing begins early 2024)
Things to consider:
With the 100 or so data points I collected from other riders I asked for the sum to be reported and if they felt as though their board was "easy to waterstart." Here's what the results showed.
Competent riders considered a BARG Factor of:
5 and higher to be capable for DW SUP.
3.5 and higher, to be easy to water start.
3.25 and lower, to be hard to water start.
BEGINNERS considered a BARG Factor of:
4.5 and higher to be easier to water start.
Anything below that was considered average/hard.
Conclusions this gives us:
This gives some rough guidelines for buyers who don't have extensive access to gear demos to consider.
This gives rough guidelines to beginners who are picking up their first board and want to consider if it will be easy to learn on, and if, when they progress, it would be considered easy for the average rider to get up on.
This gives us guidance on how easy takeoff will be.
I personally really like that this drives the conversation away from liters, and more towards shape, to define efficiency.
What this doesn't give us:
This does not take foil into consideration.
This doesn't give you a guide to how fun a board will be once in flight.
This doesn't take into consideration the nuanced details of hull design.
This doesn't take windspeed and water currents into consideration.
You can break this equation, for example: an 8'x1' sheet of plywood would have a BAR of 8 but a GF of 0 = BARG Factor of 8 which sounds highly efficient. But, this is yet to be tested and quite possibly not true.
I'll continue to refine this equation to try and take in additional considerations and how each aspect can be weighted and more correctly evaluated. However, while this should not be considered the final word on how to pick your next board, it absolutely is a worthy calculation to take into consideration if you are unsure and want to continue to explore the possibility of other shapes.
I, personally, expect to focus my research on board efficiency in the 4-4.75 range.
I've collected data from over 100 different riders and kits at this point and have a few notable data points to share, but need to more deeply refine this equation over time.
Here's how it works:
Calculate your board aspect ratio by simply dividing length by width. Add that number to your guild factor which is calculated by taking your boards liters, and dividing them into your weight in kgs.
My board progression as examples:
85kg rider.
Learned for 10 days on an 8'x30" 170l monster.
AR = 3.2
GF = 1.98
Sum = 5.18 (very easy to get on foil, I don't think I ever turned it, no skill yet. Worth noting I was up and foiling on my first day as a self taught rider with a wing. I also caught every wave I paddled for in the ocean even though I didn't know how to foil and just straight lined them back to shore)
First board I owned:
E3 5'10"x29" 123l 15.5lbs
BAR = 2.41
GF = 1.43
Sum = 3.84 (not to shabby to get on foil, crummy in the air)
E3 4'8"x26 83l 12.7lbs
BAR = 2.15
GF = .97
Sum = 3.12 (least favorite board I've ever owned terrible takeoff)
Barracuda 8'x21" 112l 13lbs
BAR = 4.57
GF = 1.3
Sum = 5.87 (easiest board I've ever had to get on foil and was fun in the air)
E3 5'3"x22" 83l 11.5lbs
BAR = 2.86
GF = .97
Sum = 3.83 (fun to ride and quite quick to take off in all but the most extremely light winds)
Custom 6'3"x20" 83l 9lbs
BAR = 3.75
GF = .97
Sum = 4.72 (extremely fast off the water, track boxes were awkwardly placed so I didn't get a good feel for it in the air unfortunately)
Sunova Carver 5'10"x20" 85l (arrives next week, weight tbd)
BAR = 3.5
GF = 1
Sum = 4.5 (unridden, testing begins early 2024)
Things to consider:
With the 100 or so data points I collected from other riders I asked for the sum to be reported and if they felt as though their board was "easy to waterstart." Here's what the results showed.
Competent riders considered a BARG Factor of:
5 and higher to be capable for DW SUP.
3.5 and higher, to be easy to water start.
3.25 and lower, to be hard to water start.
BEGINNERS considered a BARG Factor of:
4.5 and higher to be easier to water start.
Anything below that was considered average/hard.
Conclusions this gives us:
This gives some rough guidelines for buyers who don't have extensive access to gear demos to consider.
This gives rough guidelines to beginners who are picking up their first board and want to consider if it will be easy to learn on, and if, when they progress, it would be considered easy for the average rider to get up on.
This gives us guidance on how easy takeoff will be.
I personally really like that this drives the conversation away from liters, and more towards shape, to define efficiency.
What this doesn't give us:
This does not take foil into consideration.
This doesn't give you a guide to how fun a board will be once in flight.
This doesn't take into consideration the nuanced details of hull design.
This doesn't take windspeed and water currents into consideration.
You can break this equation, for example: an 8'x1' sheet of plywood would have a BAR of 8 but a GF of 0 = BARG Factor of 8 which sounds highly efficient. But, this is yet to be tested and quite possibly not true.
I'll continue to refine this equation to try and take in additional considerations and how each aspect can be weighted and more correctly evaluated. However, while this should not be considered the final word on how to pick your next board, it absolutely is a worthy calculation to take into consideration if you are unsure and want to continue to explore the possibility of other shapes.
I, personally, expect to focus my research on board efficiency in the 4-4.75 range.
#7
Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / 400 Hours On Foil: A summer on narrow boards and the search for a perfect surf e
September 02, 2023, 10:29:33 AM
*this is a long post.
Before I dive into this post I want to qualify a few things:
1. I am not claiming to be an expert. I've put in a lot of hours, and I'm sharing my experience. I'm really excited about the progression of our sport and I'm giving back to the community with the data I've acquired. Hopefully you can use this info to have more fun, progress faster, and save money.
2. One of the biggest flaws I see in people looking for new gear is they ask "who makes the best.... fill in the blank (foil, wing, board)?" While I also desire to have the best, this is a flawed question. Look at any post asking that and you'll discover that whatever brand they ride, rep, sell is "second to none!" Instead, I want to encourage people to ask themselves "What is the most important trait in any given piece of gear to me?" or, "What is my preferred style of foiling, and what traits enhance that?" Then, research what makes those traits work so you can qualify peoples answers and hunt for the right gear.
3. Narrow boards should not be restricted to down winding or light wind riding.
In the spirit of #2 I'll tell you what the absolute most important traits to me are:
Board: Fast on the water, surfs well.
Foil: Roll, glide, stall speed.
Wing: Flagging stability, small.
These traits are important to me because all I want to do is surf swell. I'm not here to jump, mow the lawn, downwind, or do fancy wing tricks and maneuvers. Nothing against anyone who does those things, I've tried them too, I'm just here to surf. So, all of my research is aimed at perfecting my experience wing surfing the Columbia River. As such, you may see things from a different perspective than I do. That's cool too, this isn't dogma.
The gear I learned on:
5'10" x 29" 123l Kalama e3 15.5lbs
Kujira 1500 foil.
Progressed to:
4'8" x 26" 83l Kalama e3 13lbs
Kujira 1210 foil.
Rider and gear details for 2023:
85kg rider - I don't have any legendary skills but I think I can do some pretty fun zig zags on the waves.
3rd season winging. First season dedicated to winging.
Foils: Cloud IX Surf Foils 550 square cm-1780 square cm
Wings: Cloud IX 2.8m and 3.5m
Boards:
Kalama Barracuda 8'x21" 111.68l 13.5lbs
Kalama e3 DW/SUP/Prone 5'3"x22" 83l 11.5lbs
Cloud IX Custom 6'3"x20" 83l (on order) 9lbs
Board Takeoff:
The very first thing you will notice with a narrow board is the speed and glide that you can generate while on the water and off of foil. This is undeniable and all you have to do to verify this is to look at downwind paddlers of various disciplines and you'll notice that nobody is out there trying to make their gear wide and short. It doesn't matter if they are on a downwind SUP, SUPfoil, surfski, outrigger canoe, etc. As such, let's just agree that every other sport has gotten that right. So, how does that actually apply to winging? Speed is what you need to get on foil. It doesn't matter if you have a low aspect, high aspect, thin, or thick foil. You need a certain amount of forward speed to get them all activated. A narrow hull is going to cut through the water and generate speed with less effort than is needed with a wider hull. This allows you to consistently use smaller wings to generate the same amount of speed to activate the lift you need with your foil. The next thing to consider is glide. You may or may not notice that when you are trying to get on foil, if you stop pumping your wing and flag out while on the water your board comes to a stop really quickly. With a narrow hull that is not the case. Once you have generated speed, you lose it far less quickly than a wide hull. So, when you are pumping your foil and you are cycling through the period of generating speed, to recovering the wing, you aren't losing the same amount of hull speed during that recovery period. As such, fewer pumps for a shorter duration are necessary to get you up on foil. I have plenty of footage of me slogging with my 4'8" x 26" 83l Kalama e3 and struggling to get up on foil with my kujira 1500 and 4.5m wing in light winds. Yet, my Kalama e3 DW/SUP/Prone 5'3"x22" 83l has gotten me up in winds as light as 12 knots with my Cloud IX fs1150 and 3.5m wing. Same liters. Different shapes. Smaller wing and foil.
Swing Weight:
Ah yes, the question/statement that most jump to "yeah but the swing weight is terrible." We are all used to the idea that longer, wider boards, are not as fun to ride as shorter, wider boards. This is true. My 5'10"x29" e3 was an absolute dump truck to ride while my 4'8"x26" e3 was way more fun in the air. However, in my opinion, the wider boards are relying on the yaw axis far too much to turn. If you look at the way a surfer turns, they don't yaw side to side to initiate turns and move like a car. They roll the board rail to rail to crank turns. That's why you see surfers on narrow boards with their feet in fixed positions, while SUP surfers have to move their feet rail to rail to be able to roll the board through turns. This can be applied to narrow boards vs wide boards in winging. Narrow boards are more capable of initiating a roll as well as moving through it faster. (the foil setup below also matters, to be discussed later). In my experience, a board that rolls well produces a superior surfing experience to a board that doesn't. As such, my original, beginner 5'10"x29" e3 was terrible to swing, but my 8'x21" Barracuda is a blast to ride. It rolls into the turn fast and then relies on the fuse length to crank the turn. Look at the footage of all the badass downwind supfoilers we have in the gorge. They are cranking turns and throwing the tips out on their foils. You don't see anyone doing that with boards of equal volume that are short and wide. Last, is a 96" Barracuda actually 96" of swing weight!? The answer is a simple no. Due to the fact that your foil track boxes sit farther forward I have found that while my 96" Barracuda is 32" longer than my 63" e3, my mast is so far forward on the Barracuda that the nose of the board is actually only sticking out 17" further, not 33". ROUGHLY I'm expecting that the narrow boards that are slightly longer only gain 6" of swing length for every 12" of board length that are added to them.
For what it's worth, after my first time riding my 8'x21" Barracuda with my surf foils, I sold my 4'8"x26" e3 and have never wished I had it back.
"Yeah, but even if you can swing it you'll be clipping the nose on waves and would never be able to tack it unless you had a mast over 90cm."
Well, I had never even tried a tack before someone said this to me and am never one to shy away from a challenge I grabbed the 8' barracuda and my 66cm mast and went out to the river to learn tacks. I got my first toeside tacks after about 10 attempts. So yes, you can tack these boards. What about clipping the nose though? Sure, if you are in the bottom of a small period swell trough you can the nose. However, I typically ride a 66-76cm mast and it didn't take much for me to adapt to this. On larger swell it's a non-issue. When I use my 86cm mast, I don't have an issue either.
Aren't these boards too tippy?
This is what the shop told me when I wanted to buy one. I disagree. Your foil is a massive stabilizer for side to side issues and the length of the board increases stability as well. Plus, when you are on this board it's hard to be in the wrong position. There's 7-9" less of side to side space to incorrectly position yourself on. The instant your wing is in the air these boards rocket forward and stabilize 100%. If you can learn to foil, you can learn to balance on these boards. That being said, some boards have rounded hulls which I personally found to be less stable than boards like the barracuda that have sharper angles on the hull.
Gear Selection:
In my experience the takeoff is far better, and the swing weight is mitigated by the enhanced roll. This leads us to performance gains in other departments. A higher level of speed is generated and maintained by glide when using smaller wings. Most of us would agree, smaller wings are a joy to use. Most people know the feeling of needing a bigger wing to get on foil, but wishing you had a smaller wing once you were in flight. Many resort to using a harness or grunting through the wrist, elbow, and shoulder pain caused by being overpowered. In years past I dealt with all the elbow issues and self PT to try and keep my body fine. I wouldn't even play tug of war with my dog during the summer since my elbows would be too fragile. This year, with more winging than ever before I have had ZERO need for any PT and I still get to play with my dog. Being able to get on foil with the same size wing you need once up is a delight.
The added speed also allows you to activate much smaller foils. As a novice rider who was pushed to "lower your liters!" and "get a shorter board!" I was severely hamstrung with big wings and big foils. Honestly, two years in, I felt like winging sucked. This year in fact I intended to only kite and supfoil but I broke my ribs at the start of the season and had to give up kiting (harness pain). Fortunately I had bought the Barracuda to supfoil on and had no clue how big of an impact it was going to have on me. I had never ridden a foil smaller than the Kujira 1210 when I got it, but within two weeks I was capable of riding the Cloud IX fs700. I think most would argue that is a shocking change in equipment over such a short period of time. Things get even more interesting at this point. If we compare the swing weight experience of a small, high performance board we still see it beat the performance of a Barracuda if both use large foils. However, as soon as the wind reaches 25 knots the Barracudas hull speed allowed me to use foils down to the size of the fs550 with a 2.8m wing this summer. I do not believe we see many foilers in the gorge riding gear that small. I could be wrong, but I just haven't met many using gear of that size. The shocking reduction in foil size also dramatically increases the performance of a board like the Barracuda, further eliminating the "swing weight" argument because the performance of a small foil dramatically speeds up the 8' board.
What happens when you go short and narrow? How does that affect performance?
I'm exploring this right now and am trying to do it as scientifically as possible. My shortboard comparisons:
Kalama e3 wing/sup 4'8"x26" 83l 13lbs
Kalama e3 DW/SUP/Prone 5'3"x22" 83l 11.5lbs
Cloud IX Custom 6'3"x20" 83l 9lbs (projected weight)
You'll notice that I am keeping the liters the exact same across each board. I didn't have a choice in the Kalamas but in the spirit of getting the best possible data and comparisons I decided to have my Cloud IX made in the same liters, but with a longer, narrower shape. (I really dislike the question of "how many liters is your board?" let's talk shape before we grind on liters). Takeoff between the 4'8" and 5'3" e3 is incomparable. The fact that I've ridden my fs700 with a 3.5m wing on my 5'3" e3 is inconceivable to think of when I was struggling with my 1210 and the 4'8" last year. However, how does the 5'3"x22" e3 compare to the 8'x21" Barracuda? This is a bit of an interesting conundrum. When I ride my Barracuda I am able to rip full 180 degree cutbacks with the foil tips breached and the nose going from straight downwind to straight upwind. It's a blast and the thing that stands out to me is that I, personally, have the skill level to PUSH the Barracuda extremely hard. However, what happens when I try to do the same with the e3? Well, interestingly, I can't perform as well. First, I have more time/experience on the Barracuda. I rode that board for three months and I have about one month of experience on the e3 so it's an unfair comparison at the moment. I may get there but here's what I've found. Just like short and wide is more responsive than long and wide, short and narrow is more responsive than long and narrow. More than a few times I have gone to crank turns on the 5'3"x22" e3 and the board has flat out gotten away from me! This never happened on my Barracuda and I don't remember it happening on my 4'8"x26" e3 either. So, what's happening here and why is it remarkable? In my opinion, the faster roll of the narrow board has allowed me to enhance performance with smaller foils. The faster roll of the narrow board is amplifying the effect of the foil below. As such, I have begun to look at the entire foil to board system in a completely different light. Since I bought a complete line of foils, stabilizers, and masts, I am able to mix, match, tune, test, and play with every little detail in my kit and I now look at every single piece of gear and ask myself how it will dampen, or amplify, the performance of the rest of my kit. I don't think of them individually any longer.
Mast length: Shorter masts amplify performance. Longer masts dampen performance.
Stabilizers: Smaller stabilizers amplify performance. Larger stabilizers dampen performance. (I'm wildly interested in stabilizers now that I am trying to figure out how to dampen performance).
Foil: Smaller foils amplify performance. Larger foils dampen performance.
Board: Short and narrow amplifies performance. Long and narrow dampens performance.
These amplification vs dampening characteristics are getting into the realm of extreme details for the average rider so the best way I can simplify it is like this: I mentioned above that I can PUSH the Barracuda as hard as my skill level will allow and it always performed. However, I am trying to KEEP UP with the same kit on the 5'3"x22" e3. Since I cannot PUSH the e3 my performance suffers. I am now becoming highly selective about which mast and stabilizer to match with each foil in order to actually dampen the e3. For this reason, I went LONGER with my custom board. I want to have faster/easier takeoffs with smaller wings in lighter winds (not that the e3 is bad) and I want the slightly longer board to dampen the foils below. However, I made the Cloud IX Custom 20" wide, and it will be significantly lighter than the Kalama boards, so, perhaps, the dampening effect will not be as apparent? Time will tell on that one.
Progression!
I went from being bored with winging to being head over heels in love with it. Why? Because I'm never afraid to fall with a narrow board, the relaunch is so easy that it inspires me to try those turns and tip breaches I never thought were possible. My body never hurts. I can put in 4-6 hours a day without needing therapy since my wing doesn't destroy my body. I don't ever have to fly a wing bigger than 3.5m unless I specifically am testing ultralight capabilities of unique setups. As soon as the wind reaches 20 knots, I can use a 2.8m or smaller wing. Having a smaller wing allows me to use the wing to slash bigger, more powerful turns without getting thrown off balance. Most days I'm trying to see how many tips out frontside/backside turns I can link in a row before I lose it.
Safety: Progression is often unlocked in relation to how safe I feel and when I'm pushing the limits. it's nice to know that the narrow boards paddle back to shore really well. It could be light winds or broken gear in heavy winds, it's much easier to paddle a narrow shape back and it inspires me to go for it.
With my necessity to actually slow the new e3 down, I have room for more progression on an absolute speedster of a board if my body can develop the movement to keep up.
The perfect kit:
For me, the perfect kit is going to be an evolving target. Right now, figuring out the exact board size that unlocks riding a 3.5m wing and my fs850 (personal favorite) in winds down to 15 knots is the goal. I also want to feel like I am in control and able to push my gear, not chase it (I'm close to this now, recent stabilizer testing has been great). I'm dreaming of getting my wing quiver down to 3.5m for 10-19 knots and 2.5m for 20 knots and above. I'm hopeful that the new cutting edge fabrics matched with the narrow hulls will allow this to happen. I also greatly appreciate saving my wing money and putting it into my foils. Wings are more expensive than foils, don't last as long, and I, personally, would much rather ride slightly different sized foils that I can amplify performance on with mast/stabilizer combinations than use a larger wing.
Additional testing needed:
While I am currently testing all of these boards at close to neutral buoyancy I need to collect additional data on how positive, and negative buoyancy impacts takeoff and wing size. Once I have my custom and the feedback from it I will be more capable of evaluating if I should pursue positive, vs negative buoyancy first. My current data is pointing to +5 to +10 L/kg will be nice for shorter/narrow boards in the lightest wind. I think neutral buoyancy will be easy for boards that are closer to 6'. Negative 10 l/kg buoyancy should be easy for moderate winds (20 knots and above) and short/narrow boards.
I also need additional data on how narrow becomes too narrow. I went with 20" on my custom for two reasons. 1. Because it's different than my other two boards (22" e3 and 21" Cuda). 2. Because in scouring the internet for data on something that is very new I came across commentary from James Casey (he's better at foiling than me) who said that he feels a 20" board is more fun to turn than an 18" board. He didn't expand on why, but I am making the assumption that the 18" board over amplifies the roll, and the 20" board dampens it to an enjoyable state. I will admit that I can feel the width difference from 21"-22" and I expect the 20" board will be noticeable as well.
Last, I'm interested in understanding what happens when the board becomes lighter vs heavier. Unfortunately, I think this will be the hardest data to come by since I can't really afford to buy/own a huge quiver of wing boards.
In Closing:
I hope this write up encourages you to start to look at your board, foil, and wing as a complete system instead of individual parts. That's the biggest takeaway for me. Narrow boards, short dw boards, whatever you want to call them, have a lot of benefits and I'm very excited to be exploring them.
Thanks for taking the time to read and contribute!
FAQ:
Since initially sharing this a few additional questions have been asked.
Don't long boards get caught in the wind really badly?
Yes, walking to the water with an 8' board in 40 knots sucks and is dangerous. On the water, I have had zero issues and have heard zero reports of others complaining about this. If you actually do the rough math, there's more surface area for the wind to grab on my 4'8"x26" 83l board than on my 5'3"x22" 83l board.
I think these boards are all hype from the DW industry to sell more product. How can it outperform my 45l sinker?
If you are a hyper advanced rider who can actually fully rip on a tiny board then no, it wont compare. Congrats! You've reached an extreme niche and that's something to be proud of. For everyone else, from beginners, to intermediates, to advanced surfers, to lightwind riders, these boards are awesome and have a lot to offer. You've got to stop comparing an 8' cuda to a sinker. However, a 5'3"x22" narrow board has an insane number of benefits both on the water and on foil that can't be refuted.
Before I dive into this post I want to qualify a few things:
1. I am not claiming to be an expert. I've put in a lot of hours, and I'm sharing my experience. I'm really excited about the progression of our sport and I'm giving back to the community with the data I've acquired. Hopefully you can use this info to have more fun, progress faster, and save money.
2. One of the biggest flaws I see in people looking for new gear is they ask "who makes the best.... fill in the blank (foil, wing, board)?" While I also desire to have the best, this is a flawed question. Look at any post asking that and you'll discover that whatever brand they ride, rep, sell is "second to none!" Instead, I want to encourage people to ask themselves "What is the most important trait in any given piece of gear to me?" or, "What is my preferred style of foiling, and what traits enhance that?" Then, research what makes those traits work so you can qualify peoples answers and hunt for the right gear.
3. Narrow boards should not be restricted to down winding or light wind riding.
In the spirit of #2 I'll tell you what the absolute most important traits to me are:
Board: Fast on the water, surfs well.
Foil: Roll, glide, stall speed.
Wing: Flagging stability, small.
These traits are important to me because all I want to do is surf swell. I'm not here to jump, mow the lawn, downwind, or do fancy wing tricks and maneuvers. Nothing against anyone who does those things, I've tried them too, I'm just here to surf. So, all of my research is aimed at perfecting my experience wing surfing the Columbia River. As such, you may see things from a different perspective than I do. That's cool too, this isn't dogma.
The gear I learned on:
5'10" x 29" 123l Kalama e3 15.5lbs
Kujira 1500 foil.
Progressed to:
4'8" x 26" 83l Kalama e3 13lbs
Kujira 1210 foil.
Rider and gear details for 2023:
85kg rider - I don't have any legendary skills but I think I can do some pretty fun zig zags on the waves.
3rd season winging. First season dedicated to winging.
Foils: Cloud IX Surf Foils 550 square cm-1780 square cm
Wings: Cloud IX 2.8m and 3.5m
Boards:
Kalama Barracuda 8'x21" 111.68l 13.5lbs
Kalama e3 DW/SUP/Prone 5'3"x22" 83l 11.5lbs
Cloud IX Custom 6'3"x20" 83l (on order) 9lbs
Board Takeoff:
The very first thing you will notice with a narrow board is the speed and glide that you can generate while on the water and off of foil. This is undeniable and all you have to do to verify this is to look at downwind paddlers of various disciplines and you'll notice that nobody is out there trying to make their gear wide and short. It doesn't matter if they are on a downwind SUP, SUPfoil, surfski, outrigger canoe, etc. As such, let's just agree that every other sport has gotten that right. So, how does that actually apply to winging? Speed is what you need to get on foil. It doesn't matter if you have a low aspect, high aspect, thin, or thick foil. You need a certain amount of forward speed to get them all activated. A narrow hull is going to cut through the water and generate speed with less effort than is needed with a wider hull. This allows you to consistently use smaller wings to generate the same amount of speed to activate the lift you need with your foil. The next thing to consider is glide. You may or may not notice that when you are trying to get on foil, if you stop pumping your wing and flag out while on the water your board comes to a stop really quickly. With a narrow hull that is not the case. Once you have generated speed, you lose it far less quickly than a wide hull. So, when you are pumping your foil and you are cycling through the period of generating speed, to recovering the wing, you aren't losing the same amount of hull speed during that recovery period. As such, fewer pumps for a shorter duration are necessary to get you up on foil. I have plenty of footage of me slogging with my 4'8" x 26" 83l Kalama e3 and struggling to get up on foil with my kujira 1500 and 4.5m wing in light winds. Yet, my Kalama e3 DW/SUP/Prone 5'3"x22" 83l has gotten me up in winds as light as 12 knots with my Cloud IX fs1150 and 3.5m wing. Same liters. Different shapes. Smaller wing and foil.
Swing Weight:
Ah yes, the question/statement that most jump to "yeah but the swing weight is terrible." We are all used to the idea that longer, wider boards, are not as fun to ride as shorter, wider boards. This is true. My 5'10"x29" e3 was an absolute dump truck to ride while my 4'8"x26" e3 was way more fun in the air. However, in my opinion, the wider boards are relying on the yaw axis far too much to turn. If you look at the way a surfer turns, they don't yaw side to side to initiate turns and move like a car. They roll the board rail to rail to crank turns. That's why you see surfers on narrow boards with their feet in fixed positions, while SUP surfers have to move their feet rail to rail to be able to roll the board through turns. This can be applied to narrow boards vs wide boards in winging. Narrow boards are more capable of initiating a roll as well as moving through it faster. (the foil setup below also matters, to be discussed later). In my experience, a board that rolls well produces a superior surfing experience to a board that doesn't. As such, my original, beginner 5'10"x29" e3 was terrible to swing, but my 8'x21" Barracuda is a blast to ride. It rolls into the turn fast and then relies on the fuse length to crank the turn. Look at the footage of all the badass downwind supfoilers we have in the gorge. They are cranking turns and throwing the tips out on their foils. You don't see anyone doing that with boards of equal volume that are short and wide. Last, is a 96" Barracuda actually 96" of swing weight!? The answer is a simple no. Due to the fact that your foil track boxes sit farther forward I have found that while my 96" Barracuda is 32" longer than my 63" e3, my mast is so far forward on the Barracuda that the nose of the board is actually only sticking out 17" further, not 33". ROUGHLY I'm expecting that the narrow boards that are slightly longer only gain 6" of swing length for every 12" of board length that are added to them.
For what it's worth, after my first time riding my 8'x21" Barracuda with my surf foils, I sold my 4'8"x26" e3 and have never wished I had it back.
"Yeah, but even if you can swing it you'll be clipping the nose on waves and would never be able to tack it unless you had a mast over 90cm."
Well, I had never even tried a tack before someone said this to me and am never one to shy away from a challenge I grabbed the 8' barracuda and my 66cm mast and went out to the river to learn tacks. I got my first toeside tacks after about 10 attempts. So yes, you can tack these boards. What about clipping the nose though? Sure, if you are in the bottom of a small period swell trough you can the nose. However, I typically ride a 66-76cm mast and it didn't take much for me to adapt to this. On larger swell it's a non-issue. When I use my 86cm mast, I don't have an issue either.
Aren't these boards too tippy?
This is what the shop told me when I wanted to buy one. I disagree. Your foil is a massive stabilizer for side to side issues and the length of the board increases stability as well. Plus, when you are on this board it's hard to be in the wrong position. There's 7-9" less of side to side space to incorrectly position yourself on. The instant your wing is in the air these boards rocket forward and stabilize 100%. If you can learn to foil, you can learn to balance on these boards. That being said, some boards have rounded hulls which I personally found to be less stable than boards like the barracuda that have sharper angles on the hull.
Gear Selection:
In my experience the takeoff is far better, and the swing weight is mitigated by the enhanced roll. This leads us to performance gains in other departments. A higher level of speed is generated and maintained by glide when using smaller wings. Most of us would agree, smaller wings are a joy to use. Most people know the feeling of needing a bigger wing to get on foil, but wishing you had a smaller wing once you were in flight. Many resort to using a harness or grunting through the wrist, elbow, and shoulder pain caused by being overpowered. In years past I dealt with all the elbow issues and self PT to try and keep my body fine. I wouldn't even play tug of war with my dog during the summer since my elbows would be too fragile. This year, with more winging than ever before I have had ZERO need for any PT and I still get to play with my dog. Being able to get on foil with the same size wing you need once up is a delight.
The added speed also allows you to activate much smaller foils. As a novice rider who was pushed to "lower your liters!" and "get a shorter board!" I was severely hamstrung with big wings and big foils. Honestly, two years in, I felt like winging sucked. This year in fact I intended to only kite and supfoil but I broke my ribs at the start of the season and had to give up kiting (harness pain). Fortunately I had bought the Barracuda to supfoil on and had no clue how big of an impact it was going to have on me. I had never ridden a foil smaller than the Kujira 1210 when I got it, but within two weeks I was capable of riding the Cloud IX fs700. I think most would argue that is a shocking change in equipment over such a short period of time. Things get even more interesting at this point. If we compare the swing weight experience of a small, high performance board we still see it beat the performance of a Barracuda if both use large foils. However, as soon as the wind reaches 25 knots the Barracudas hull speed allowed me to use foils down to the size of the fs550 with a 2.8m wing this summer. I do not believe we see many foilers in the gorge riding gear that small. I could be wrong, but I just haven't met many using gear of that size. The shocking reduction in foil size also dramatically increases the performance of a board like the Barracuda, further eliminating the "swing weight" argument because the performance of a small foil dramatically speeds up the 8' board.
What happens when you go short and narrow? How does that affect performance?
I'm exploring this right now and am trying to do it as scientifically as possible. My shortboard comparisons:
Kalama e3 wing/sup 4'8"x26" 83l 13lbs
Kalama e3 DW/SUP/Prone 5'3"x22" 83l 11.5lbs
Cloud IX Custom 6'3"x20" 83l 9lbs (projected weight)
You'll notice that I am keeping the liters the exact same across each board. I didn't have a choice in the Kalamas but in the spirit of getting the best possible data and comparisons I decided to have my Cloud IX made in the same liters, but with a longer, narrower shape. (I really dislike the question of "how many liters is your board?" let's talk shape before we grind on liters). Takeoff between the 4'8" and 5'3" e3 is incomparable. The fact that I've ridden my fs700 with a 3.5m wing on my 5'3" e3 is inconceivable to think of when I was struggling with my 1210 and the 4'8" last year. However, how does the 5'3"x22" e3 compare to the 8'x21" Barracuda? This is a bit of an interesting conundrum. When I ride my Barracuda I am able to rip full 180 degree cutbacks with the foil tips breached and the nose going from straight downwind to straight upwind. It's a blast and the thing that stands out to me is that I, personally, have the skill level to PUSH the Barracuda extremely hard. However, what happens when I try to do the same with the e3? Well, interestingly, I can't perform as well. First, I have more time/experience on the Barracuda. I rode that board for three months and I have about one month of experience on the e3 so it's an unfair comparison at the moment. I may get there but here's what I've found. Just like short and wide is more responsive than long and wide, short and narrow is more responsive than long and narrow. More than a few times I have gone to crank turns on the 5'3"x22" e3 and the board has flat out gotten away from me! This never happened on my Barracuda and I don't remember it happening on my 4'8"x26" e3 either. So, what's happening here and why is it remarkable? In my opinion, the faster roll of the narrow board has allowed me to enhance performance with smaller foils. The faster roll of the narrow board is amplifying the effect of the foil below. As such, I have begun to look at the entire foil to board system in a completely different light. Since I bought a complete line of foils, stabilizers, and masts, I am able to mix, match, tune, test, and play with every little detail in my kit and I now look at every single piece of gear and ask myself how it will dampen, or amplify, the performance of the rest of my kit. I don't think of them individually any longer.
Mast length: Shorter masts amplify performance. Longer masts dampen performance.
Stabilizers: Smaller stabilizers amplify performance. Larger stabilizers dampen performance. (I'm wildly interested in stabilizers now that I am trying to figure out how to dampen performance).
Foil: Smaller foils amplify performance. Larger foils dampen performance.
Board: Short and narrow amplifies performance. Long and narrow dampens performance.
These amplification vs dampening characteristics are getting into the realm of extreme details for the average rider so the best way I can simplify it is like this: I mentioned above that I can PUSH the Barracuda as hard as my skill level will allow and it always performed. However, I am trying to KEEP UP with the same kit on the 5'3"x22" e3. Since I cannot PUSH the e3 my performance suffers. I am now becoming highly selective about which mast and stabilizer to match with each foil in order to actually dampen the e3. For this reason, I went LONGER with my custom board. I want to have faster/easier takeoffs with smaller wings in lighter winds (not that the e3 is bad) and I want the slightly longer board to dampen the foils below. However, I made the Cloud IX Custom 20" wide, and it will be significantly lighter than the Kalama boards, so, perhaps, the dampening effect will not be as apparent? Time will tell on that one.
Progression!
I went from being bored with winging to being head over heels in love with it. Why? Because I'm never afraid to fall with a narrow board, the relaunch is so easy that it inspires me to try those turns and tip breaches I never thought were possible. My body never hurts. I can put in 4-6 hours a day without needing therapy since my wing doesn't destroy my body. I don't ever have to fly a wing bigger than 3.5m unless I specifically am testing ultralight capabilities of unique setups. As soon as the wind reaches 20 knots, I can use a 2.8m or smaller wing. Having a smaller wing allows me to use the wing to slash bigger, more powerful turns without getting thrown off balance. Most days I'm trying to see how many tips out frontside/backside turns I can link in a row before I lose it.
Safety: Progression is often unlocked in relation to how safe I feel and when I'm pushing the limits. it's nice to know that the narrow boards paddle back to shore really well. It could be light winds or broken gear in heavy winds, it's much easier to paddle a narrow shape back and it inspires me to go for it.
With my necessity to actually slow the new e3 down, I have room for more progression on an absolute speedster of a board if my body can develop the movement to keep up.
The perfect kit:
For me, the perfect kit is going to be an evolving target. Right now, figuring out the exact board size that unlocks riding a 3.5m wing and my fs850 (personal favorite) in winds down to 15 knots is the goal. I also want to feel like I am in control and able to push my gear, not chase it (I'm close to this now, recent stabilizer testing has been great). I'm dreaming of getting my wing quiver down to 3.5m for 10-19 knots and 2.5m for 20 knots and above. I'm hopeful that the new cutting edge fabrics matched with the narrow hulls will allow this to happen. I also greatly appreciate saving my wing money and putting it into my foils. Wings are more expensive than foils, don't last as long, and I, personally, would much rather ride slightly different sized foils that I can amplify performance on with mast/stabilizer combinations than use a larger wing.
Additional testing needed:
While I am currently testing all of these boards at close to neutral buoyancy I need to collect additional data on how positive, and negative buoyancy impacts takeoff and wing size. Once I have my custom and the feedback from it I will be more capable of evaluating if I should pursue positive, vs negative buoyancy first. My current data is pointing to +5 to +10 L/kg will be nice for shorter/narrow boards in the lightest wind. I think neutral buoyancy will be easy for boards that are closer to 6'. Negative 10 l/kg buoyancy should be easy for moderate winds (20 knots and above) and short/narrow boards.
I also need additional data on how narrow becomes too narrow. I went with 20" on my custom for two reasons. 1. Because it's different than my other two boards (22" e3 and 21" Cuda). 2. Because in scouring the internet for data on something that is very new I came across commentary from James Casey (he's better at foiling than me) who said that he feels a 20" board is more fun to turn than an 18" board. He didn't expand on why, but I am making the assumption that the 18" board over amplifies the roll, and the 20" board dampens it to an enjoyable state. I will admit that I can feel the width difference from 21"-22" and I expect the 20" board will be noticeable as well.
Last, I'm interested in understanding what happens when the board becomes lighter vs heavier. Unfortunately, I think this will be the hardest data to come by since I can't really afford to buy/own a huge quiver of wing boards.
In Closing:
I hope this write up encourages you to start to look at your board, foil, and wing as a complete system instead of individual parts. That's the biggest takeaway for me. Narrow boards, short dw boards, whatever you want to call them, have a lot of benefits and I'm very excited to be exploring them.
Thanks for taking the time to read and contribute!
FAQ:
Since initially sharing this a few additional questions have been asked.
Don't long boards get caught in the wind really badly?
Yes, walking to the water with an 8' board in 40 knots sucks and is dangerous. On the water, I have had zero issues and have heard zero reports of others complaining about this. If you actually do the rough math, there's more surface area for the wind to grab on my 4'8"x26" 83l board than on my 5'3"x22" 83l board.
I think these boards are all hype from the DW industry to sell more product. How can it outperform my 45l sinker?
If you are a hyper advanced rider who can actually fully rip on a tiny board then no, it wont compare. Congrats! You've reached an extreme niche and that's something to be proud of. For everyone else, from beginners, to intermediates, to advanced surfers, to lightwind riders, these boards are awesome and have a lot to offer. You've got to stop comparing an 8' cuda to a sinker. However, a 5'3"x22" narrow board has an insane number of benefits both on the water and on foil that can't be refuted.
#8
Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / The foils I demo'd and why I landed on Cloud IX
August 01, 2023, 02:10:34 PM
This was a bit of a make or break year for me. I was kind of over winging and ready to go back to kiting. Just wasn't enjoying it. Unfortunately, I broke my ribs at the start of the season and couldn't kite, but could still wing, so I doubled down. I started hunting for what I felt like was the best surf foil with the most friendly user experience.
I don't have profound thoughts or in depth reviews on any of these foils. I think that any/every demo is a mere glimpse at what a foil can do. I simply want to share some brief thoughts. I hunted around for demos until I found something that suited me. I did not pay for any of these demos, when I finalized my choice on Cloud IX I paid for them.
Takuma Kujira 1210/1500
This is what I learned on and felt stagnant on. I would argue these are the best priced beginner foils on the market since they are all being dumped for kujira 2 stuff.
Kujira 1440
Big and slow, hard for me to turn.
North, high aspect foils.
I couldn't successfully ride these. The stall speed and takeoff speed was so high that I gave up after a few rides.
Unifoil progression 170 and hyper 250.
Progression 170, slowest stall speed and earliest lift of any foil I've ridden. Slow on foil as well.
Hyper 250, couldn't figure this foil out. Always felt out of control for me.
Lift 150 hax.
This is the most disappointing demo I had. I am fairly certain this is a well loved foil, but it was really poor conditions when I tried it. I'll note that it had nice lift for a high aspect foil but I turned away from it since the roll felt a little sluggish.
Lift, big surf foil, no labels.
Had what felt like zero glide and was extremely hard to get on foil. Rode this for a beginner who was struggling to learn.
Naish, big and old.
Rode this for a beginner who was struggling to learn. It was fine for straightline beginner riding. However, turning was very difficult and it makes sense that a beginner would blow their jibes.
Slingshot Hover Glide Apollo
Rode this for a beginner who was struggling to learn. Quite twitchy in the roll. Made sense that they kept tacoing.
Code Foils 850s
Super fast foil, probably the fastest I had ever ridden. It was surprising how sensitive it was with speed and acceleration. If you are in the energy pocket of the swell, it takes off super fast. If you're not, it slows down quickly. I could not, however, figure out how to pump this foil. Every time I tried to pump it the foil seemed to collapse down.
Foils I still want to try: Axis Spitfire and F-One Sk8
Cloud IX fs series. Rode the full range from 550-1780.
These foils just felt like home to me. Good low end, good glide and speed, most important to me was the carve/surf feeling and these foils rolled better than anything I have ever experienced. I'm a surfer, and this is the first time I ever felt like I was actually surfing on foils. I could say a lot more about these but I'll just leave it at that for now. I've got 65 sessions on mine so far this summer and for the first time ever my wife says I come home happy after winging
I also can't imagine pulling my kites out again. Quite the 180 from the beginning of the season.
If anyone has any questions or wants to expand the conversation on any of these foils feel free to shoot away with questions/comments and I'll try to let you know what I can about these. I am most prepared to answer Takuma and Cloud IX questions, everything else will be a little more shallow of answers.
I don't have profound thoughts or in depth reviews on any of these foils. I think that any/every demo is a mere glimpse at what a foil can do. I simply want to share some brief thoughts. I hunted around for demos until I found something that suited me. I did not pay for any of these demos, when I finalized my choice on Cloud IX I paid for them.
Takuma Kujira 1210/1500
This is what I learned on and felt stagnant on. I would argue these are the best priced beginner foils on the market since they are all being dumped for kujira 2 stuff.
Kujira 1440
Big and slow, hard for me to turn.
North, high aspect foils.
I couldn't successfully ride these. The stall speed and takeoff speed was so high that I gave up after a few rides.
Unifoil progression 170 and hyper 250.
Progression 170, slowest stall speed and earliest lift of any foil I've ridden. Slow on foil as well.
Hyper 250, couldn't figure this foil out. Always felt out of control for me.
Lift 150 hax.
This is the most disappointing demo I had. I am fairly certain this is a well loved foil, but it was really poor conditions when I tried it. I'll note that it had nice lift for a high aspect foil but I turned away from it since the roll felt a little sluggish.
Lift, big surf foil, no labels.
Had what felt like zero glide and was extremely hard to get on foil. Rode this for a beginner who was struggling to learn.
Naish, big and old.
Rode this for a beginner who was struggling to learn. It was fine for straightline beginner riding. However, turning was very difficult and it makes sense that a beginner would blow their jibes.
Slingshot Hover Glide Apollo
Rode this for a beginner who was struggling to learn. Quite twitchy in the roll. Made sense that they kept tacoing.
Code Foils 850s
Super fast foil, probably the fastest I had ever ridden. It was surprising how sensitive it was with speed and acceleration. If you are in the energy pocket of the swell, it takes off super fast. If you're not, it slows down quickly. I could not, however, figure out how to pump this foil. Every time I tried to pump it the foil seemed to collapse down.
Foils I still want to try: Axis Spitfire and F-One Sk8
Cloud IX fs series. Rode the full range from 550-1780.
These foils just felt like home to me. Good low end, good glide and speed, most important to me was the carve/surf feeling and these foils rolled better than anything I have ever experienced. I'm a surfer, and this is the first time I ever felt like I was actually surfing on foils. I could say a lot more about these but I'll just leave it at that for now. I've got 65 sessions on mine so far this summer and for the first time ever my wife says I come home happy after winging
I also can't imagine pulling my kites out again. Quite the 180 from the beginning of the season. If anyone has any questions or wants to expand the conversation on any of these foils feel free to shoot away with questions/comments and I'll try to let you know what I can about these. I am most prepared to answer Takuma and Cloud IX questions, everything else will be a little more shallow of answers.
#9
Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Kalama E3 Wing/prone/dw 5'3" vs 5'9"???
July 24, 2023, 03:25:16 PM
Struggling hard with this decision and hoping to get some input from others. These two boards seem relatively unpopular in the gorge, so I haven't been able to find any first person reviews.
I'm 39, 85kg, probably 150 sessions of winging in the gorge at this point. I'd consider myself an intermediate. I don't jump, have little interest in wing skills, but love to ride swell.
This year I've been winging on my 8' barracuda and it's opened my eyes to how fun winging can be with small wings and small foils. I've found that the Cloud IX FS700 matched with a 2.8 wing tends to be my favorite setup on the 'cuda. This brings the barracuda to life and I can ride this kit as long as the wind is 20 knots, which is almost every day in the gorge. This has been a ton of fun for me, but I'm getting that all too familiar itch to try something different again.
This week I've demo'd a few friends boards:
Armstrong 5'2"x26" 75l with Cloud IX FS1150 76cm mast and 3.5m wing in 20 knots.
Fanatic Sky 5'0"x24" 75l with Cloud IX FS1000 86cm mast and 4.2m wing in 20 knots.
Both of those boards are -10 liters for me at sunrise. Probably -12 to -13 after lunch with an impact vest, helmet, etc. They were both quite doable with the stinkbug start, but in the lulls I had to slog across the river to find a puff. I enjoyed the shortboard feel, but wasn't a fan of the funky deck shapes on either of those boards.
Which brings me to the 5'3" 83l and 5'9" 95l Kalama. 22" and 22.5" wide.
My progression winging has been:
5'10" x 29" 120l kalama
4'8" x 26" 83l kalama
8' x 21" 112l kalama
So... I'm comfortable and partial to these boards.
What I can't decide upon is how the 5'3" would feel as a daily driver? I keep telling myself that if I can ride a 75l that's 24-26" wide then surely I can ride an 83l that's 22" wide and it must be an easier water start, right??? The 95l, I know would be even easier to water start, but I wonder if I would have that little demon in my head saying you should have gone shorter... 5'3" vs 5'9" feels like a significant difference in swing length.
5'3" 83l = -2 to -5 kg to l
5'9" 95l = +7 to +10 kg to l
I don't want to throw away my ability to ride smaller foils/wings, but I don't have any way to evaluate how well these boards will take off. I think if I could ride my FS850 and 3.5m wing in 20 knots I would be most stoked, but I don't know which board to land on to bring that into reality.
Any help/thoughts/comments!?
I'm 39, 85kg, probably 150 sessions of winging in the gorge at this point. I'd consider myself an intermediate. I don't jump, have little interest in wing skills, but love to ride swell.
This year I've been winging on my 8' barracuda and it's opened my eyes to how fun winging can be with small wings and small foils. I've found that the Cloud IX FS700 matched with a 2.8 wing tends to be my favorite setup on the 'cuda. This brings the barracuda to life and I can ride this kit as long as the wind is 20 knots, which is almost every day in the gorge. This has been a ton of fun for me, but I'm getting that all too familiar itch to try something different again.
This week I've demo'd a few friends boards:
Armstrong 5'2"x26" 75l with Cloud IX FS1150 76cm mast and 3.5m wing in 20 knots.
Fanatic Sky 5'0"x24" 75l with Cloud IX FS1000 86cm mast and 4.2m wing in 20 knots.
Both of those boards are -10 liters for me at sunrise. Probably -12 to -13 after lunch with an impact vest, helmet, etc. They were both quite doable with the stinkbug start, but in the lulls I had to slog across the river to find a puff. I enjoyed the shortboard feel, but wasn't a fan of the funky deck shapes on either of those boards.
Which brings me to the 5'3" 83l and 5'9" 95l Kalama. 22" and 22.5" wide.
My progression winging has been:
5'10" x 29" 120l kalama
4'8" x 26" 83l kalama
8' x 21" 112l kalama
So... I'm comfortable and partial to these boards.
What I can't decide upon is how the 5'3" would feel as a daily driver? I keep telling myself that if I can ride a 75l that's 24-26" wide then surely I can ride an 83l that's 22" wide and it must be an easier water start, right??? The 95l, I know would be even easier to water start, but I wonder if I would have that little demon in my head saying you should have gone shorter... 5'3" vs 5'9" feels like a significant difference in swing length.
5'3" 83l = -2 to -5 kg to l
5'9" 95l = +7 to +10 kg to l
I don't want to throw away my ability to ride smaller foils/wings, but I don't have any way to evaluate how well these boards will take off. I think if I could ride my FS850 and 3.5m wing in 20 knots I would be most stoked, but I don't know which board to land on to bring that into reality.
Any help/thoughts/comments!?
#10
Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Narrow vs Wide Boards: Beginners to Advanced
June 18, 2023, 09:35:56 AM
I wanted to start an open conversation about what people are learning to ride on, as well as what you are learning on as you advance.
Some friends of mine came down from the board shop with their new "perfect beginners kit!" and I gave them as much tuning and encouragement as I could, but I was honestly a little dismayed at what the shops are pushing. This "perfect beginners kit!" included a 4.5m duotone unit, an unlabeled, but looked like, Lift 200 Surf foil, and a 32"x6'4" 20lbs+ 140l starboard board (husband and wife, probably weigh 120-160lbs respectively. It was a heroic effort for me to get that beast up on foil! They were thrilled because they could balance on the board, but I just wonder how long it will take for them to be able to get it on to foil?
I've really been directing people towards narrow boards, forget about liters so much, get something that gets you up on foil! There seems to be this obsession with easy to balance on when you aren't moving but that is such a tiny fraction of the experience. The ability to efficiently get up on foil is so much more important than having an easy balance point when you are in the water. The struggle to actually get on foil causes people to not want to crash, and not want to restart, which means they don't take risks learning new tricks/techniques. Plus, length adds a lot of stability and get's you moving/planing fast, which adds to even more stability.
Best example I've seen for a beginner getting up was just recently. A small woman was struggling session after session not getting up onto foil. She switched to the Naish Hover DW board, 22.5"x7' and 105l I think? First session on the board and she's flying across the river.
Beyond beginners: I picked up a Kalama Barracuda this year, 8'0"x21" 112l. I planned to DW SUPfoil on it and took it out winging to get a feel for it. I rode it once, and promptly sold my 5'10" and 4'8" kalama boards. I can now wing with a 2.5m wing anytime winds reach 20 knots and I can ride wildy smaller foils, Cloud IX FS700 instead of Kujira 1210 (that's -500 square cm) in the same wind with my 4.2m wing. Smaller wings and smaller foils are WAY more fun for me.
The big question I always get is "the swing weight must be terrible right?" But the reality is that it's not. My 4'8"83l Kalama E3 weighed the same amount as my 8' 112l Barracuda. The box on my Barracuda is far forward so it doesn't actually have 8' of swing, it's more in the 5-6' range. If you watch downwind sup foil videos, all those people are getting great turns on their longer boards.
So, IMO, unless you want to jump, or are prone foiling, I really think giving longer/narrower boards is worth a shot. I don't think everyone will go to 8', but I think my next pure wing board will be in the 6'6"x18" range. At the very least, let's not shoot them down based on what we think is the only way to enjoy winging!
Some friends of mine came down from the board shop with their new "perfect beginners kit!" and I gave them as much tuning and encouragement as I could, but I was honestly a little dismayed at what the shops are pushing. This "perfect beginners kit!" included a 4.5m duotone unit, an unlabeled, but looked like, Lift 200 Surf foil, and a 32"x6'4" 20lbs+ 140l starboard board (husband and wife, probably weigh 120-160lbs respectively. It was a heroic effort for me to get that beast up on foil! They were thrilled because they could balance on the board, but I just wonder how long it will take for them to be able to get it on to foil?
I've really been directing people towards narrow boards, forget about liters so much, get something that gets you up on foil! There seems to be this obsession with easy to balance on when you aren't moving but that is such a tiny fraction of the experience. The ability to efficiently get up on foil is so much more important than having an easy balance point when you are in the water. The struggle to actually get on foil causes people to not want to crash, and not want to restart, which means they don't take risks learning new tricks/techniques. Plus, length adds a lot of stability and get's you moving/planing fast, which adds to even more stability.
Best example I've seen for a beginner getting up was just recently. A small woman was struggling session after session not getting up onto foil. She switched to the Naish Hover DW board, 22.5"x7' and 105l I think? First session on the board and she's flying across the river.
Beyond beginners: I picked up a Kalama Barracuda this year, 8'0"x21" 112l. I planned to DW SUPfoil on it and took it out winging to get a feel for it. I rode it once, and promptly sold my 5'10" and 4'8" kalama boards. I can now wing with a 2.5m wing anytime winds reach 20 knots and I can ride wildy smaller foils, Cloud IX FS700 instead of Kujira 1210 (that's -500 square cm) in the same wind with my 4.2m wing. Smaller wings and smaller foils are WAY more fun for me.
The big question I always get is "the swing weight must be terrible right?" But the reality is that it's not. My 4'8"83l Kalama E3 weighed the same amount as my 8' 112l Barracuda. The box on my Barracuda is far forward so it doesn't actually have 8' of swing, it's more in the 5-6' range. If you watch downwind sup foil videos, all those people are getting great turns on their longer boards.
So, IMO, unless you want to jump, or are prone foiling, I really think giving longer/narrower boards is worth a shot. I don't think everyone will go to 8', but I think my next pure wing board will be in the 6'6"x18" range. At the very least, let's not shoot them down based on what we think is the only way to enjoy winging!
#11
Foil SUP / Day 1 downwind training, questions and Barracuda impressions.
May 11, 2023, 03:42:28 PM
Day 1 training and questions!
Rider:
190lbs 5'6" avid kiter and sup surfer. Crappy winger. I get 100+ days a year in the water.
Gear:
Kalama Barracuda 8'0" x 21" 112l
Takuma Kujira 1210 75cm mast
Black Project Surge Paddle.
First day out on a downwind board and I spent an hour practicing prone and paddle pop-ups (to my feet, not foil, no swell or wind). I was really comfortable in the calm waters. No balance issues, pop ups all went really well and this board paddles fast! I have to admit, I was mentally prepared for a disaster but that wasn't the case. I know wind/swell are going to change things dramatically, but I'm glad I'm learning on a board that is so user friendly in the calm waters. It definitely encourages me to keep at it.
My questions are:
1. Do you place the foil in relatively the same position as you do with a wing board? Or do you have to find a different sweet spot for it? I also have a 1500 foil which when there is swell, I plan to learn on. This 1210 seemed fine since I wasn't trying to get on foil today.
2. How many sprint strokes does it typically take to get up on foil in the waves or in swell? I was practicing 20 stroke sprints but wasn't sure if I should push longer?
Thanks for any/all advice!
Rider:
190lbs 5'6" avid kiter and sup surfer. Crappy winger. I get 100+ days a year in the water.
Gear:
Kalama Barracuda 8'0" x 21" 112l
Takuma Kujira 1210 75cm mast
Black Project Surge Paddle.
First day out on a downwind board and I spent an hour practicing prone and paddle pop-ups (to my feet, not foil, no swell or wind). I was really comfortable in the calm waters. No balance issues, pop ups all went really well and this board paddles fast! I have to admit, I was mentally prepared for a disaster but that wasn't the case. I know wind/swell are going to change things dramatically, but I'm glad I'm learning on a board that is so user friendly in the calm waters. It definitely encourages me to keep at it.
My questions are:
1. Do you place the foil in relatively the same position as you do with a wing board? Or do you have to find a different sweet spot for it? I also have a 1500 foil which when there is swell, I plan to learn on. This 1210 seemed fine since I wasn't trying to get on foil today.
2. How many sprint strokes does it typically take to get up on foil in the waves or in swell? I was practicing 20 stroke sprints but wasn't sure if I should push longer?
Thanks for any/all advice!
#12
Foil SUP / Kalama x 4
May 10, 2023, 07:57:01 PM
Added my 4th Kalama to the quiver today. Definitely an unexpected gem. Looks like I know what my summer plans are!
#13
Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Slick V1 vs V3 Review
April 30, 2023, 07:06:09 PM
I've been riding the slick 2.5, 3.5, 4.5 with standard boom since 2021 and just picked up a new V3 4.0 with the slim boom. I've got 5 sessions on the new v3 and wanted to do a quick review for anyone considering the upgrade.
Pros for V3:
Upwind and powered riding:
The V3 shines over the originals for sure. The V3 is much more stable at driving upwind and is shockingly stable when overpowered. I rode the 4.0 in everything from 15 to nearly 40 knots! While it's not my first choice when it's pumping heavy wind I will admit that it is surprisingly under control and never created a jerk me off the board kind of feeling. The V1s undoubtedly get over grunty and out of control at high wind speeds.
Luffed riding:
This is essentially the only reason I wing. A few seasons after learning and I still openly tell people I dislike flying the wing, kites are better. However, downwinding and surfing swell with the wing luffed out is the whole reason I learned to wing in the first place and it's essentially all I do when I'm winging. The stability of the V3 over the original is shocking. For the most part I forget about the V3. When I pulled out a smaller V1 today I was disgusted with how it handled luffed out
Cons for V3:
Pumping:
Despite the MOD3 fabric, I find the V3 to generate pretty minimal power when pumped in comparison to the V1 wings. Either there's enough wind to get you up and going, or there's not. The V1's however seemed to generate a lot of power when pumped.
Water Starts:
This is a huge flaw IMO. I do the stinkbug start and I have never experienced a wing where the trailing edge consistently dips into the water. In the Columbia River, where you have current, this causes the current to grab the trailing edge when you are trying to get positioned to pop up from the stinkbug start. Once that trailing edge has been grabbed, the wing stands up and you have to drop it, or get pulled off the board. It's been TERRIBLY frustrating for me and I'm trying to figure out a completely different water start because it's exhausting failing to get up and having to flip your wing over repeatedly. Doesn't matter if its 15 or 30 knots, this is a real problem for me. I took both V1 and V3 out today, V3, consistently a trailing edge catch problem. V1, didn't happen a single time.
Quality control:
My V1 Duotone slicks had to be warrantied as soon as I received them for bad valves. My V3 valve leaks terribly when pumping it up and I've already reached out to the vendor about the issue. Also, the new platinum mini boom sls had the foam grip fail on session 1. The glue failed and the foam peeled back and continues to do so. Duotone offered me a $75 credit to fix it myself, but I opted to have them replace the boom. Waiting on that now.
Overall:
When up and riding it's crystal clear that the V3 is a huge upgrade over the V1. I dislike flying my V1s after just a week on the V3s. However, the water start issue is such a huge pain that I really don't think I could recommend this wing and I doubt I would buy a smaller size unless I could demo it first. I'm hopeful that this issue will not be present in open ocean riding, but for the river, it's undoubtedly a struggle for me. Perhaps another 5-10 sessions and I'll figure out a new water start, but that's not what I expect to have to do when getting a new wing.
Pros for V3:
Upwind and powered riding:
The V3 shines over the originals for sure. The V3 is much more stable at driving upwind and is shockingly stable when overpowered. I rode the 4.0 in everything from 15 to nearly 40 knots! While it's not my first choice when it's pumping heavy wind I will admit that it is surprisingly under control and never created a jerk me off the board kind of feeling. The V1s undoubtedly get over grunty and out of control at high wind speeds.
Luffed riding:
This is essentially the only reason I wing. A few seasons after learning and I still openly tell people I dislike flying the wing, kites are better. However, downwinding and surfing swell with the wing luffed out is the whole reason I learned to wing in the first place and it's essentially all I do when I'm winging. The stability of the V3 over the original is shocking. For the most part I forget about the V3. When I pulled out a smaller V1 today I was disgusted with how it handled luffed out
Cons for V3:
Pumping:
Despite the MOD3 fabric, I find the V3 to generate pretty minimal power when pumped in comparison to the V1 wings. Either there's enough wind to get you up and going, or there's not. The V1's however seemed to generate a lot of power when pumped.
Water Starts:
This is a huge flaw IMO. I do the stinkbug start and I have never experienced a wing where the trailing edge consistently dips into the water. In the Columbia River, where you have current, this causes the current to grab the trailing edge when you are trying to get positioned to pop up from the stinkbug start. Once that trailing edge has been grabbed, the wing stands up and you have to drop it, or get pulled off the board. It's been TERRIBLY frustrating for me and I'm trying to figure out a completely different water start because it's exhausting failing to get up and having to flip your wing over repeatedly. Doesn't matter if its 15 or 30 knots, this is a real problem for me. I took both V1 and V3 out today, V3, consistently a trailing edge catch problem. V1, didn't happen a single time.
Quality control:
My V1 Duotone slicks had to be warrantied as soon as I received them for bad valves. My V3 valve leaks terribly when pumping it up and I've already reached out to the vendor about the issue. Also, the new platinum mini boom sls had the foam grip fail on session 1. The glue failed and the foam peeled back and continues to do so. Duotone offered me a $75 credit to fix it myself, but I opted to have them replace the boom. Waiting on that now.
Overall:
When up and riding it's crystal clear that the V3 is a huge upgrade over the V1. I dislike flying my V1s after just a week on the V3s. However, the water start issue is such a huge pain that I really don't think I could recommend this wing and I doubt I would buy a smaller size unless I could demo it first. I'm hopeful that this issue will not be present in open ocean riding, but for the river, it's undoubtedly a struggle for me. Perhaps another 5-10 sessions and I'll figure out a new water start, but that's not what I expect to have to do when getting a new wing.
#14
Foil SUP / SUP vs hand paddles on barracuda style boards?
April 29, 2023, 07:35:46 PM
Starting to come across a few videos of people advocating for hand paddles over learning to SUP when downwinding the narrow fleet of boards that have gained in popularity. The claims are that it's not that hard to get up, and you eliminate a lot of the balance/struggle of learning to SUP something so narrow. Anyone have first hand experience with both and care to advocate one way or the other?
#15
I've started to see a few a lot of kujira foils on sale and was wondering why... saw today that Kujira II is coming soon. Anyone heard anything beyond the trailer that dropped last week?
#16
General Discussion / Annual Gear Budget?
March 03, 2023, 09:41:28 PM
I've been thinking about this a bit, what's your annual gear budget at? I do a wide variety of activities including:
Kitesurf
Wingfoil
SUP surf
Plus some lazy snowboarding and cycling.
My kite gear is relatively stabilized. I figure I could budget for a replacement kite every year if I was trying to stay on top of it. I'm an advanced kiter though, most days my kite never gets wet so replacing gear isn't a rush here.
Wingfoiling seems particularily poor for finances (haha). The gear just gets a lot more wear and tear and I don't see any way around it. Better skills helps for sure, but I don't see any way around dunking the wing in the ocean several times a session. Caught inside can lead to damaged gear fast.
SUP boards seem to last a long time. Expensive to replace but it feels like once you figure out what you like, then there isn't a need for more unless your fiending for a big quiver. I prefer 1, maybe 2 boards.
5k seems like it would be a pretty cushy gear budget unless you are a replace everything every year kind of rider.
This year I'm at 1k for a new wing. Potential 2k new sup. Nothing needed after that though...
Kitesurf
Wingfoil
SUP surf
Plus some lazy snowboarding and cycling.
My kite gear is relatively stabilized. I figure I could budget for a replacement kite every year if I was trying to stay on top of it. I'm an advanced kiter though, most days my kite never gets wet so replacing gear isn't a rush here.
Wingfoiling seems particularily poor for finances (haha). The gear just gets a lot more wear and tear and I don't see any way around it. Better skills helps for sure, but I don't see any way around dunking the wing in the ocean several times a session. Caught inside can lead to damaged gear fast.
SUP boards seem to last a long time. Expensive to replace but it feels like once you figure out what you like, then there isn't a need for more unless your fiending for a big quiver. I prefer 1, maybe 2 boards.
5k seems like it would be a pretty cushy gear budget unless you are a replace everything every year kind of rider.
This year I'm at 1k for a new wing. Potential 2k new sup. Nothing needed after that though...
#17
SUP General / Board Weight vs Board Liters
February 09, 2023, 11:35:01 AM
I like geeking out on details and since I'm looking at a new board right now my mind got wandering about board weights and how they correspond to volume.
Obviously there are some variables such as board shape that impact this but I figured I'd throw my boards and weights up for comparison.
Kalama 9'2" x 30" 126l 16.8lbs or 2.13oz per liter.
WTB Infinity New Deal 8'6" x 29" 114l 15.4lbs or 2.16 oz per liter.
Quatro Carve Pro 8'2" x 29" 120l 14.8lbs or 1.97oz per liter.
I've long known that quatro was pulling some low weights on their boards vs other brands but was pleasantly surprised to see the Kalama weight per liter staying competitive. I never felt it was a heavy board but was unsure of how it compared in overall weight.
Obviously there are some variables such as board shape that impact this but I figured I'd throw my boards and weights up for comparison.
Kalama 9'2" x 30" 126l 16.8lbs or 2.13oz per liter.
WTB Infinity New Deal 8'6" x 29" 114l 15.4lbs or 2.16 oz per liter.
Quatro Carve Pro 8'2" x 29" 120l 14.8lbs or 1.97oz per liter.
I've long known that quatro was pulling some low weights on their boards vs other brands but was pleasantly surprised to see the Kalama weight per liter staying competitive. I never felt it was a heavy board but was unsure of how it compared in overall weight.
#18
Sessions / Travel blunder, but some great recovery!
February 02, 2023, 07:16:41 AM
Well, I screwed something up that I've never screwed up before. I showed up at the airport with my wife to head out on our two week trip to Mexico and got rejected by the airlines. Turns out that I should have looked at the expiration date on my passport BEFORE you show up at the airport and find out that it expired! Just devastating. I'll also note that we learned that even if you have 6 months left on your passport, they still won't let you fly, so if you haven't been thinking about travel since covid, check your documents!
However... we've had terrible weather in Oregon for a while now. I skip the gorge in the winter but love surfing the coast when the sun pops out. It wasn't 2 weeks in Mexico but we were finally blessed with some phenomenal long period surf in the 4-8' range and sunny days. I went absolutely nuts out there and even had a day where I pulled down 60 chest to head high waves in a three hour session.
I've definitely got to get wife to some warm water for snorkeling, but surf cup is quite full after the last few weeks!
However... we've had terrible weather in Oregon for a while now. I skip the gorge in the winter but love surfing the coast when the sun pops out. It wasn't 2 weeks in Mexico but we were finally blessed with some phenomenal long period surf in the 4-8' range and sunny days. I went absolutely nuts out there and even had a day where I pulled down 60 chest to head high waves in a three hour session.
I've definitely got to get wife to some warm water for snorkeling, but surf cup is quite full after the last few weeks!
#19
SUP General / 8'6" new deal.
February 01, 2023, 03:07:49 PM
Anyone been lucky enough to have tried the new smaller new deals? I'm considering this as the next step coming down from my 9'2" kalama.
#20
Classifieds / Quatro Carve Pro - 8'2" with bag. Portland, OR $1290
February 01, 2023, 10:29:26 AM
No dings/repairs but there is cosmetic wear on the finish. Deck pad has no wear.
Retail $2150
Your price: $1290
Cash and in person sale. Portland, OR.
Retail $2150
Your price: $1290
Cash and in person sale. Portland, OR.
