Author Topic: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?  (Read 1028 times)

Kip

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Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« on: November 27, 2020, 11:57:09 AM »
So I picked up a downwind board because we have lots of wind during the winter up here.
Besides the occasional swim, I feel like I have a good amount of control on my 23” Blackfish @ 274L (maybe partially because I can get back on the tail). However, in similar conditions, my downwind pintail makes me feel like I have less control (it’s 298L). It catches smooth bumps without much effort on my part and it’s so stable that I never go swimming, which is awesome,  but anytime there’s confusion in the water it pushes me around.
The other day it was gusting 30-35 and it pushed me passed the park where I was parked. I ended up on someone’s lawn and ended up having to paddle back up wind. Not really a big deal, but I just didn’t feel I had the same control over the board.
Just wanted to see what you all think as I don’t fully understand volume v.s. rider weight.
I’m 5’8” and 150-160 lbs depending on how much I’m running/drinking.

Cheers!

Luc Benac

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2020, 01:45:46 PM »
It is likely a bit of both with all respect.
I have been downwinding for some years and while I am still a beginner I still have some experience on different boards.
Downwinding a high volume big nose dugout style is a very different proposition than downwinding a low volume close to the water board.
You will get the advantage on speed as you noted but loose on control as you also noted which makes it a lot more technically challenging.
The high volume nose is likely the first factor.
I have a low volume pintail downwind board (Sunova Torpedo) that is easy to control and a low volume feet on teh water board narrow tail (Maliko 2020) that is even maybe easier to handle side and quartering chop and wind.
With experience on a particular board, you will improve your technique and take advantage of the specific. It might take longer and make it more difficult in some cases than if you started a progression in boards.
Naish Maliko 14' x 26" 273L
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
 *Salish 460 & 500, Andaman 500, Viento 520

Badger

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2020, 02:27:12 PM »
I would say it's a width issue. I'm no downwind expert but to me, those widths seem a little narrow for downwind except for the most advanced paddlers.

I was comfortable downwinding on my 28" JL M-14 but it was still challenging at times when conditions got heavy. I wouldn't mind trying a 26.5" JL Rail but that would likely be pushing the limits of my ability.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 02:50:31 PM by Badger »
Jimmy Lewis Super Frank  7'6 X 31"  115L
Sunova Flow  8'10 X 31"  119L
Hypr Gun  10'6 X 28"  148L
Me - 6'0" - 175lbs - 63yo

Kip

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2020, 02:49:04 PM »
I would say it's a width issue. I'm no downwind expert but to me, those widths seem a little narrow for downwind except for maybe the most advanced paddlers.

I was comfortable downwinding on my 28" JL M-14 but it was still challenging at times when conditions got heavy. Personally, I would not want a downwind board narrower than 26" but I'm not a young man anymore.

I’d agree with you, but the thing is I feel I have more control on the 23” flat deck than the 25” dugout - but I did go out to our bay today where the rollers were clean and the 25” dugout was a pleasure to paddle.

I think what Luc said makes sense. A combo of lack of skill in those conditions + high volume nose + pin tail is making it a challenge. Maybe more time ? Guess it’s just too easy for me to blame something law, like volume haha

Luc Benac

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2020, 02:54:19 PM »
For me the sweet spot has always be 26 wide 270ish L. I am 6' 170 lbs.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 02:56:17 PM by Luc Benac »
Naish Maliko 14' x 26" 273L
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
 *Salish 460 & 500, Andaman 500, Viento 520

Badger

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2020, 03:07:21 PM »
Volume is just one of many factors that affect stability. Unless you are shopping for a new board, keep practicing with what you have and continue to develop the skills.
Jimmy Lewis Super Frank  7'6 X 31"  115L
Sunova Flow  8'10 X 31"  119L
Hypr Gun  10'6 X 28"  148L
Me - 6'0" - 175lbs - 63yo

Luc Benac

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2020, 03:36:04 PM »
Volume is just one of many factors that affect stability. Unless you are shopping for a new board, keep practicing with what you have and continue to develop the skills.

Absolutely. The Downtown in 25 wide has a good reputation as a fast downwind board so it is not like you have the wrong tool for the job either....and the Blackfish has always been a great open ocean board.
Naish Maliko 14' x 26" 273L
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
 *Salish 460 & 500, Andaman 500, Viento 520

TallDude

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2020, 04:02:40 PM »
Part of what's going on is the steering technique. It's different on the two boards you have. I've downwinded in 25 mph lake roller swells with a narrow dugout board and separately on a stand-on-top board in the same condition. With the dugout a 19' x 23.5" Richmond (my feet below water line) I had to feet steer it like I'm snow skiing. You want to go right, you put wait on your left foot. It turns away from the weighted side partly because your feet are below the waterline and partly because of the typically rounded hull design on dugout boards. They turns more like a sailboat. The stand-on-top boards (feet above water line) with rocker like your Blackfish, which has boxy rails will turn like a surfboard. You lean right and it turns right. Wider more surfy boards are probably more fun and a little more intuitive to turn. Downwinding deep dugout boards takes practice. Some downwind boards, both dugout and stand on top have rudders which takes a whole other skill set.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 04:07:12 PM by TallDude »
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

Luc Benac

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2020, 04:24:57 PM »
TallDude, pardon my ignorance if I misunderstood, but you are talking when already on the tail of the board rather than rail steering from the middle, correct?
I have always believed and somewhat experienced that from the middle, weighing the opposite rail steer the board in the direction you wanted and when you get on the tail of a flat deck board then it is the opposite (like surfing).
Naish Maliko 14' x 26" 273L
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
 *Salish 460 & 500, Andaman 500, Viento 520

TallDude

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2020, 05:24:36 PM »
That's a good point. I guess I'm just assuming most dugout boards are near impossible to step back in and try to make a turn from the tail. Remember I'm unlimited guy. If I stepped back in my dugout Richmond my back foot would be 4" higher than my front foot and on a slippery, no deck pad surface. It's a cockpit. On a shorter Dugout 'Downtown' you could put your foot back and lean to turn it. Part of that is that it also has more rocker and boxy rails. The rounded rails with flatter rocker is what causes the reverse foot steer. And as you pointed out, if you steer from a more forward position on all most any race board you will experience the reverse foot steering.
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

Kip

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2020, 05:43:57 PM »
What you all are saying makes sense !
Probably shouldn’t just flip it out of frustration.
Definitely feels like a bit more of a learning curve than jumping down to the 21”.
I always appreciate everyone’s insight!

Still a fun board to paddle all around. Guessing once I get bigger balls for bigger runs it’s gonna be a blast.

Luc Benac

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2020, 05:45:30 PM »
What you all are saying makes sense !
Probably shouldn’t just flip it out of frustration.
Definitely feels like a bit more of a learning curve than jumping down to the 21”.
I always appreciate everyone’s insight!

Still a fun board to paddle all around. Guessing once I get bigger balls for bigger runs it’s gonna be a blast.

Just to not fall on the sidewalls :-)
Naish Maliko 14' x 26" 273L
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
 *Salish 460 & 500, Andaman 500, Viento 520

Kip

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Re: Volume issue ? Or skill issue ?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2020, 06:16:50 PM »
What you all are saying makes sense !
Probably shouldn’t just flip it out of frustration.
Definitely feels like a bit more of a learning curve than jumping down to the 21”.
I always appreciate everyone’s insight!

Still a fun board to paddle all around. Guessing once I get bigger balls for bigger runs it’s gonna be a blast.

Just to not fall on the sidewalls :-)

Ooof! Yea. I cracked a rib in fire academy and then tore an intercostal when I first started paddling. Neither of those experiences were enjoyable.
Gonna try and stay away from those sidewalls haha

 


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