Wing specific boards

[Dwight (DW)]

I ask because I had the opportunity to try a friend's board with a beveled tail (relatively long bevel) and it made me think.  The problem was that even though there was substantial area behind the track (wider and longer back there than I am used to) it lacked the stability that its length and width would have seemed to allow.  It wanted to rock or fall back onto that bevel rather than getting support from it.  This was mostly noticeable when on the knees.  In this new sport the board is really not doing all that much.  We need to be able to kneel comfortably and it can make it as easy as possible to get to our feet.  I am wondering if a lot of the bevel is counterproductive for us and if it is just excess that could either be trimmed or if that width (or part of it) could be used better as "full contact, full support" bottom.

You are a wise man. Yes, those extreme tail chops are counter productive.

[supkailua]

Admin, I like what you are saying.

I have tried all the bevels including the rear and the side and the board was not very stable. Then I tried one with no bevels and it was very stable.

I honestly can't tell the difference in early take off. As long as I have enough wind in the wing I can take off easily. If I don't have enough wind neither option will get me in the air.

For me having the volume in the back instead of the extreme tail chop means the swell has more board to push and I am floating higher in the water. I believe this is the same concept as long surf boards vs. short surf boards. The long boards have more volume, you ride higher, and the push from smaller swells is much greater than on a short board. When you take away that volume there is less area to get pushed by the swell.

Once in the air the bevels don't mean a lot for me. In extreme turns I can hit the side of the water and I don't notice a big slow down from the non-beveled rail. It gives my turn a reference point and some bounce back up from the turn. So I find that I really don't ride with the side of my board in the water, and when in the air the bevels mean nothing.

Those extreme tail chops look a lot cooler than a big fat backside on a board. The tail chop gives the board a smaller look in my opinion. However, I prefer the stability and volume even though I look less cool.

One other important thought on tail chops and beveled rails is they are not great for beginners. When you are just starting out stability is really important. I have seen too many people fail to get anywhere because they are using that small board with the fancy beveled bottom they surf foil with to wing foil, and initially the wing is pulling them in different directions so a stable board makes the learning curve easier.

[Dwight (DW)]

You have to get all the design elements working together. A huge tail chop, throws the distribution of volume way off. Everything needs to be in balance. You need to be able to mount the board, stand on the board, get your feet in the right spot to pump and fly, all in control and easy to do. Plus have enough tail chop to make it pump easy. A straight tail does not pump well.

[supkailua]

Dwight, I agree. The ultimate board is as you are describing. If the tail chop takes away the control, then I would prefer the straight tail vs. loss of control. If you have all the control and a tail shape that pumps well then you have it all.

It seems the ultimate boards are the one's you are building. The one that Admin tried and said "it lacked the stability that its length and width would have seemed to allow" is what happened to me too.

[Dwight (DW)]

I have the advantage of being old, so it has to be easy. 

[Admin]

Admin, I like what you are saying.

I have tried all the bevels including the rear and the side and the board was not very stable. Then I tried one with no bevels and it was very stable.

I honestly can't tell the difference in early take off. As long as I have enough wind in the wing I can take off easily. If I don't have enough wind neither option will get me in the air.

That is my feeling exactly.  It seems like these "SUP Foil" bevels are shortening (and narrowing) the primary balance area way more than they should be for a very limited return in ease of take off.  Don't get me wrong, that may be super important for SUP Foil.  Trying to take off using only a paddle and swell power is likely a very different deal.  Maybe ease of takeoff is the primary concern there.  With these wings, though,  we have a relative ton of power in our hands.  On the other side, we have no paddle to brace with.  In fact we are in a pretty wobbly position with the wing overhead when there is little or no wind support.  Board design can help a lot there.  I think we can likely get a lot more stability in the same size board (or the same stability in a significantly smaller board) without sacrificing much. 

[peterp]

[/quote]

That is my feeling exactly.  It seems like these "SUP Foil" bevels are shortening (and narrowing) the primary balance area way more than they should be for a very limited return in ease of take off.  Don't get me wrong, that may be super important for SUP Foil.  Trying to take off using only a paddle and swell power is likely a very different deal.  Maybe ease of takeoff is the primary concern there.  With these wings, though,  we have a relative ton of power in our hands.  On the other side, we have no paddle to brace with.  In fact we are in a pretty wobbly position with the wing overhead when there is little or no wind support.  Board design can help a lot there.  I think we can likely get a lot more stability in the same size board (or the same stability in a significantly smaller board) without sacrificing much.
[/quote]

The Starboard Hyperfoil is shaped with this philosophy - smaller bevels, parallel outline and channels which all aid stationary stability.

[supkailua]

Admin, another good point you bring up regarding SUP Foiling vs. Wing Foiling. Both boards I am using were designed for SUP Foiling, not Wing Foiling.

I believe the bevel in the back was initially designed for SUP Foiling where you take off on a wave, the idea being it allows the wave to push the back of the board without tilting the foil down which would make take off harder. In Wing Foiling we don't need to wait for a wave to lift off, so our needs are different.

SUP Foiling tends to be done in non-windy conditions, so the water is normally not choppy. Most don't go SUP foiling in high winds, but we love Wing Foiling in high winds so the water is very choppy. Again, different needs.

I experienced this first hand when I was learning to Wing Foil. I had a board I could paddle without falling off in light winds. However, on my first attempt with that board with a wing in high winds and choppy water I could not even get off my knees. It was a humbling experience, as many have had trying to learn to wing foil.

I am sure in time more manufacturers will look at the needs of a Wing Foiler only and come out with boards specific to this discipline. They probably will still have the bevel in the back for pumping as Dwight said, but they will also perhaps be more stable in choppy water.

[Admin]

This is a kiteboard but I wonder if an upsized variation on this theme would not be better for me.  It seems like the overall dimensions could be very compact in a design like this and you would move a lot of volume to the rails where it can help a lot with stability. Really boxy rails do get pushed around by chop so a little softening might be needed but it would not likely need to be much.  A lot of the windfoil (windsurf) designs are really flat bottomed, flat broad tailed and boxy railed.  Different set of needs there but some similarities as well.

[Dwight (DW)]

Wow, kiting is so dead.
https://youtu.be/dB46G5PdAy0

[DavidJohn]

Awesome vid.. Those tight 360s are amazing.

[Solent Foiler]

Admin - aren't you describing Gong's Flint? Or are some elements of that which don't fit your criteria?

[Admin]

Admin - aren't you describing Gong's Flint? Or are some elements of that which don't fit your criteria?

The Flint is closer but still gives up 2-3 inches on each rail and 6-8 inches at the tail to bevels.  I am wondering inf we would not do better bringing those numbers near zero, especially as we go shorter.  We would either get back a lot of volume or could trim those dimensions. 

For our sport, board features that effect flying such as water avoidance, tap and go, etc don't really seem to add up to much outside of basic board dimensions.  It seems like those inherited cuts and angles have a much greater negative impact in stability reduction than they do positive effect on flying enhancement.

Ease of launching?  Same thing.  I am on board with what SupKailua wrote above.  If there is enough wind (and it takes very little) you are going to get airborn.  They all launch.  Less weight is definitely nice here and volume is certainly helpful but we have a lot of power coming from these wings and getting up is going to happen.

Personally, I would like to see max planted volume in the smallest reasonable package and I don't think we are there yet. 

[Dwight (DW)]

I’m not sure where the concern with stability is coming from. We have wings in our hands! Stability comes from the wing. Once it’s in your hand, so easy...even when not on foil. You sure don’t care about stability just getting to the knee start position...that’s just technique you learn pretty quick, even in wild sea states.

What does mater, is not getting sucked off foil. A completely flat bottom is a PIA on barely there jibes. One slight touch on the jibe, and 50% energy is sucked from you, and you likely end up back in the water. Same rules as actually SUP foiling. Slight touches ruin your ride, especially with intermediate skills.  All those narrower surfaces that can kiss the water, bottom center panel, and chine panel, really are lower drag when they kiss the surface, so you make way more jibes. We will always kiss the water, even when an expert. The chop size, the wave size, you can’t help but kiss the surface when cranking turns. Not breaching is more important than kissing the surface, so kissing it so often has to be a design consideration.

There is another stability factor in affect. The foil is king. The bottom fights the foil. There are differences in the frequency of wobble and the way the body fights against the bottom and foil.

[Admin]

There are a couple of (top board priority for me) scenarios where board assisted balance is really important.  They are almost opposites.   

The first is when it is super marginal.  This is when you are getting almost no support from the wing and you are often holding it up.  Knee starts are tough or impossible then.  Even knee cruising gets difficult when you are really under.  When the windline is a little offshore it is nice be able to stand start and eek out to it but that is not always a graceful affair.  I did a lot of that this past couple weeks.  The board can help a lot here. 

The second is when it is full on.  Really crazy water that is moving you around a lot, wing is going nuts.  Board stability goes a long way in making these conditions manageable.  At the same time you don't want a mondo board to get that benefit. 

You see a lot of rail to rail , zero bevel, flat tail designs in windfoiling and some now in SUP.  I think that concept could be optimized for the wing as well.  It might not be for everyone but I see a lot of value in that.