Author Topic: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race  (Read 22056 times)

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #240 on: April 16, 2018, 07:31:38 AM »
"the percentage loss of speed is one sixth (0.167%) the percentage increase in mass"

I WILL TOTALLY DISAGREE
Because of the following reasons:
1. Extensive surfski testing has revealed that with my body weight (about 60 kilos) - I find that removing just 5 kilos from a 15 kilos ski increases my average speed an average of 0.9 km/h (that's nearly 1 km an hour difference!!!)

2. Because SUP is so inefficient compared to surfskis, I find that the beginning of each stroke is dedicated to getting my board back to speed, and 2/3 of my remaining stroke is where I get speed. Because of this, a SUPER LIGHT board allows far less effort at the beginning of the stroke, where I am now able to get real power RIGHT AWAY.

3) The 0.167% rule is based on schematics dating back - way back - most likely derived by lazy people who didn't want to actually paddle for 3 or 4 hours while weighted down.

4) Heck, don't take my words for it... just go and make your own data by adding extra weight to your board. Keep in mind that when I add 5 kilos to my board, it's like most of you guys adding 8 to 9 kilos to your board. So go ahead, see real data that pertains to a "real you".

1) The noise in the data of outdoor testing on rough water would create error that could swamp the results. Without a good number of runs and the stated error bars, I think caution is advised. Produce the GPS data and lets review it.

2) This is possible in my mind - you might well be right in principle. I haven't got robust enough data for me to say otherwise.

3) I think that is unfair. That formula was based on research for the context of the length and type of event the craft was used in. I should also add it has been corroborated (or see slight variations). The real question is what you raised in no.2 - would a SUP buck the formula due to its hydrodynamic inefficiency ? I don't know.

4) I've done this. I downloaded the 'rowing in motion' app and checked the acceleration stats of my board. When I lost 6-7kg in weight late last season, my early results revealed an approximate speed increase that was roughly inline with that formula. I also know how powerful the placebo is - I trained for the last 8 weeks with three tennis balls strapped underneath my hull to improve my catch technique. As soon as you take them off you feel like you're flying and you sporadically set PB's until you realise why.

I don't doubt its a great and a fast board but I don't think the success you're describing can be attributed to weight loss. The shape is going to affect this but you can't separate the two. Plus without the data, its all just speculation.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 07:34:55 AM by ukgm »

Eagle

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #241 on: April 16, 2018, 04:05:57 PM »
I don't doubt its a great and a fast board but I don't think the success you're describing can be attributed to weight loss. The shape is going to affect this but you can't separate the two. Plus without the data, its all just speculation.
Pretty much most of the top race boards are of good quality and very fast with the proper pilot.  Weight is a somewhat subjective value as one person can be the exact same weight as another but have a completely different body composition vs another.  As well VO2 and power and strength and endurance and balance and skill etc factor into the speed equation.

A good way to compare is to get simple quick and easy sprint speeds to check vs previous data from other boards.  As well get 5 miles average GPS speeds.  We did this -> and it was clear which boards were fastest after adjusting for conditions and variables.  Of course every paddler is different so results varied from person to person.  A few speed tests online reflect significant paddler variances as well.  BP did some back in 2011.

Actually when tested the 28 XOR vs the 25AS -> the XOR "felt" faster because of zero nose splash but actually was about the same speed.  Would suspect the 23 Nelo to go ok and have ok build quality if anything like the Think hollow.  But 23 vs 21.5 is a significant difference in efficiency for me when compared side to side.  For flat water -> anything around 21.5 feels just so right vs 23.  23 is good for slop and chop for me.

A light board is good to carry and load and unload onto a rack.  As well would say a light board is more preferable vs a heavy board to paddle for me.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #242 on: April 16, 2018, 10:00:13 PM »
Couple of very interesting feedback I would still like to share with you guys. Heck, it may be a waste of time, but perhaps some of you will find the info to follow of interest.

Nelo 23 doesn't glide like a SB Sprint 23.
It glides whisper-quiet and seemingly with the efficiency of my UL 17'6" x 23".

Nelo 23 is very stable. So much so that after just a few feet, I knew I'd be taking this board in Open Water. I'd even take one step further, push the enveloppe, and perhaps hope for a 20" or 21" board for pure flat water pleasure. I mean, 23" for that board is super stable - so stable that I will have to carefully measure its 23".

I wasn't born yesterday, and I know that real measurements are needed. However, because I have been doing this for quite some time now, I am perhaps a little more in tune with "feelings". My main goal was to share immediate feedback after spending just a few long minutes on the board.

UPDATE - to clarify things
I attribute its great glide AND its stability to its rather super unusual shape. It has characteristics I find no where else.

Its weight will, without a single doubt, help me off the line and/or for any needed accelerations. Its weight will be welcomed when board handling, but will be fantastic on those longer trips. Its weight (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with its great glide.

Construction, BTW, above and beyond what was to be expected for some of the first boards. It looks like its been in production for years: flawless, super clean, and SOLID!!!!!

Last, but not least: when you try this board, or when you buy this board, one thing may really shock you: This board has a dug out standing area that IS NOT that deep (they could have dug out another 3 inches without any fear of reaching through). That seems great for heavier paddlers, so that they aren't constantly under water when moving below 6 km/h. For lighter paddlers, I think that you will be shocked: they really could have dug it out further, a lot further, and provide tons of additional stability by having your center of gravity lowered. One solution for heavier paddlers may just be a scupper / manual drain hatch. Either way, who cares... but you will no doubt find its standing area to be a much higher standing area than expected.

Anyway, until I (or any one else) shares hard-earned data....
Starboard Ace - 14' x 25
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Eagle

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #243 on: April 16, 2018, 11:11:15 PM »
This is the XO more pin to pin -> but the deep vee is what makes this SUP so super silent.  Compared to Daryl's surfskis tho it really fattens out at the standing area.  Going to a sunken deck makes complete sense to gain stability.  For me the dropped deck Sprint 21.5 was just a little less stable on flat vs the much higher AS23.  Main diff was going into slop and chop.  The flat Sprint spears whereas the AS rides over with more rocker.

Overall tho the Sprint 21.5 felt good even with the slight splash up front.  A 21 Nelo would probably be better for flat from the sounds of it.  The 23 maybe good for more slop and chop conditions.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #244 on: April 17, 2018, 12:02:58 AM »
With a 14 - no matter what design - you are always going to be banging up against the “hull speed” problem. Probably more than anything else, this is the most common cause of people being disappointed at how little improvement in overall speed they have got when changing board. For this reason, I tend to be suspicious of claims that one 14 is remarkably faster than another.

We’ve also got to factor in the fact that photofr weighs about 25kg or something :) So, the weight issue for him is probably much more important than for a big powerful unit like ukgm. Some of us will be more affected by small changes in weight and form drag than others.

I really do hope that this Nelo is as light, super-stable-yet-narrow, incredibly quick, fantastically durable, and as reasonably-priced as photofr claims. We could all do with a board like that. But I guess that I’ve heard so many claims like that from brands and their reps over the last 11 years that I’ve become a bit cynical. Most design improvements seem to have been trade-offs and incremental improvements, but what I’m hearing here is no trade-offs and game-changing improvement. I hope this is accurate, to restore my faith in human nature.

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #245 on: April 17, 2018, 02:33:47 AM »
Setting the record straight:
The Nelo board is a German design (Lightboard).
The construction of the mold, the craftsmanship, and the construction method is Nelo.

Based on the price of surfskis, this board should be in the 1900 to 2500 euro range. However, since the German company needs to also make money, the current price is in the 3000 euro range instead... but Even then, for a durable such as this construction method, I believe the price is still super fair.

On a different note, Nelo will MOST LIKELY be designing and building their very own boards... in the next few years.
Starboard Ace - 14' x 25
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #246 on: April 17, 2018, 04:08:29 AM »
Setting the record straight:
The Nelo board is a German design (Lightboard).
The construction of the mold, the craftsmanship, and the construction method is Nelo.

Based on the price of surfskis, this board should be in the 1900 to 2500 euro range. However, since the German company needs to also make money, the current price is in the 3000 euro range instead... but Even then, for a durable such as this construction method, I believe the price is still super fair.

On a different note, Nelo will MOST LIKELY be designing and building their very own boards... in the next few years.

As I understand it, an allwater hollow board is due from Lightsignature shortly. That should be interesting. As it stands, once work calms down, I've got access to a Nelo board I can borrow. However, as I said to someone last weekend, designing a fast board isn't really that hard. However, designing one that can operate on a crowded start line or a race racked with draft trains is entirely different.

I personally think the price is too high though. It costs more than an elite level Epic surfski.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 04:10:59 AM by ukgm »

yugi

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #247 on: April 17, 2018, 04:15:50 AM »
3600 Euro is about $4450  GBP 3100

They claim just over 9 kg
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 04:23:47 AM by yugi »

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #248 on: April 17, 2018, 06:08:55 AM »
3600 Euro is about $4450  GBP 3100

They claim just over 9 kg

They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #249 on: April 17, 2018, 09:32:17 AM »
3600 Euro is about $4450  GBP 3100

They claim just over 9 kg

They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.

Yeah that is a risk.  This was the problem with Think to some degree.  Fantastic build quality and fairly light weight -> but high relative cost for an unknown SUP brand.  The Think is heavier than the Nelo as it is built quite robust to handle knocks and dragging onto rocks and sand.  Daryl could have made it lighter at the expense of less durability.  His 5 year old demo is not much worse for wear after substantial abuse from noobs testing and such.  He wanted durability over feather light weight.  And from my perspective -> I would take durability as well vs saving a couple of pounds any day.  It weighs about what a full carbon board weighs.  So not really heavy.  In my mind it feels burly vs carbon.

Possibly when my Dom breaks some time down the road -> will probably contact Daryl and buy his demo from him.  His build quality is that solid.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #250 on: April 17, 2018, 02:10:27 PM »
3600 Euro is about $4450  GBP 3100

They claim just over 9 kg

They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.
It’s not that much more to pay than for a carbon Starboard in the UK. It’s always going to be a tiny market that this kind of board will appeal to. I doubt you’d sell more than 10 to the whole of the UK. But the people who are competitive enough to want one would pay anything if it is perceived as giving a genuine advantage. The problem Nelo have got is that without the marketing BS that some other brands use to flog sometimes iffy boards, they’ll have to rely on word of mouth only. And that will mean that the boards will actually have to work in real world race conditions, not just on a deserted lake. But if it really is as good as photofr is claiming, then word will get around.

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #251 on: April 17, 2018, 03:06:12 PM »
3600 Euro is about $4450  GBP 3100

They claim just over 9 kg

They may well price themselves out of the market in my view. They haven't got the established brand power within the SUP world so to go as high as something like starboard is a huge risk. The SUP market won't have a clue about Nelo's excellent build pedigree.
It’s not that much more to pay than for a carbon Starboard in the UK. It’s always going to be a tiny market that this kind of board will appeal to. I doubt you’d sell more than 10 to the whole of the UK. But the people who are competitive enough to want one would pay anything if it is perceived as giving a genuine advantage. The problem Nelo have got is that without the marketing BS that some other brands use to flog sometimes iffy boards, they’ll have to rely on word of mouth only. And that will mean that the boards will actually have to work in real world race conditions, not just on a deserted lake. But if it really is as good as photofr is claiming, then word will get around.

It's pretty hard when starboard have such a stranglehold on the race board market. I don't think paddlers are that technology savvy or sensitive in the main - they'll paddle anything they can get a deal on I think. However, I do know that this board is going to be pushed heavily at this years inaugural ICF sup worlds. It's particularly handy that Nelo is one of the event sponsors.

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #252 on: April 17, 2018, 05:44:59 PM »
ukgm - I don’t think that your drive to find the best equipment for you is any different from other highly competitive person. A really competitive person would sell their granny for a 0.01% race advantage. It’s an addiction, of sorts.

The reason IMO why Starboards sell is simply that other riders see people winning on them. And Starboard have the best distribution network. So if people see Nelo boards winning then they’ll buy them. It would certainly be nice to see the Starboard stranglehold broken -it’s just getting a bit boring. Maybe if Kai starts winning on SIC that might broaden the horizons a little. Does Nelo sponsor an athlete who is likely to be able to run with the world’s very best? How does this new board draft, buoy turn, surf, downwind, crosswind etc and all those important kinds of things for winning in the top international races?

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #253 on: April 17, 2018, 10:05:57 PM »
Price-wise, I kept asking myself:
Why should I really purchase a Nelo instead of a Starboard?

It came down to about the same amount of money, but with Nelo: I got myself areal built quality, and not a product that falls apart before the end of a single season. My Ace is fantastic on downwind, but durability just isn't there AT ALL - yet, I baby the freekin' thing.

So let me get this straight:
You get a board that is way stiffer and doesn't cost anything more.
You get a board that is built to withstand rail abuse / other abuse.
You get a board that is like 9 kilos instead of one that is 12.5 (that's just huge BTW)
You get a reputable construction from the biggest boat builder in the World - with an excellent track record.

** I expected the Nelo board to be something like 5000 euros - so needless to say, when I figured out that it was about the same price as other top boards, it was a "no-brainer". To each his own though. 
Starboard Ace - 14' x 25
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #254 on: April 17, 2018, 10:32:38 PM »
In the end, yes: a great 14' board that matches MY needs. Keep in mind, boards are just like bikes: you may love Cannondale bikes, and your best buddy may never let go his Scott bike. The golden rule will therefore still apply: try one - and see for yourself if you are a good match for this board.

I went for another paddle with the board yesterday late afternoon. Yes, the glide is still at the Rendez-vous, and it still feels fantastic. Zero regrets so far, but there's something else I'd like to share with you.

The standing area:
As you might know, there are two drain holes on the board. This board will drain very fast, but that's also because your immediate standing area is shaped like an inverted V. It's a bit odd, and will take some "getting used to".

Here's a statement that may very well prove correct:
Current top athletes using this board may have a clear advantage.


Starboard Ace - 14' x 25
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"