Author Topic: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs  (Read 6444 times)

FloridaWindSUP

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Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« on: April 11, 2017, 11:20:01 AM »
Over the weekend I did a sup race that had mostly amateurs, but a couple of pro / expert racers, including Chase Kosterlitz and Larry Cain.

http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2017/04/sup-race-report-sharkbite-challenge.html

It was a 13.5 km race in choppy water on the Gulf of Mexico, 50% upwind, 50% downwind.

Chase averaged 9.61 kph, almost 6 mph, for the entire race. Larry Cain was just over a minute behind Chase. Neither of those guys did any drafting. I got 4th, but was almost 10 minutes behind Chase, with an average speed of 8.61 kph.

It was cool to race with the fast guys to see what kind of speeds are possible on a SUP. Makes me wonder what the breakdown is of all the factors that make the pros so much faster. More strength, more aerobic endurance, more efficient/effective technique, more skill in maintaining speed upwind and multiplying speed downwind, etc. Some of those things are probably lucky endowments of genetics, and some probably come only from long years of super-intense full-time training that's not replicable by a late-starting amateur, but maybe SOME of those factors are things that I could acquire with practice to gain some more speed for myself.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 11:21:42 AM by FloridaWindSUP »
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PonoBill

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2017, 12:16:01 PM »
I'm pretty sure SUPuk could answer that question, in fact I think he did some time ago, but I can't find it.
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kayadogg

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2017, 12:18:54 PM »
This is a great topic. Some of these guys just seem inhuman. I'll never forget when I was living in SoCal and paddling with Performance Paddling 4 days a week, the "regulars" had some pretty serious speed... one night Kelly Margetts is in town and joins us for training that night. The gap he put on the fast "regulars" and then the overall time he beat everyone by was just jaw-dropping. And he's in his 40's.

Another time Giorgio Gomez showed up, only had his surf paddle and proceeded to smoke everyone to the point that it really looked like he had a motor on his board. Even these guys get beat by the top pros at times. Really makes you scratch your head.

I'm a big golf nut too and it's the same way that when you watch them on tv, you're like yeah they're pretty good. But then if you happen to play 18 with a pro or play on a tour course that's setup for them, its such a different story that it's basically in a different language and you can't really comprehend what's happening.


warmuth

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2017, 01:11:10 PM »
  The distance those two put on the rest of the field was nuts. The top guys in the world are all collectively lucky that Larry is 53 and not 25. Congrats on 4th, that's a great result in a race like that. I don't know how in the hell those guys get to a 6mph+ pace over long distances but they didn't start there so guys like us just have to chip away at it.

TallDude

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2017, 02:47:42 PM »
Guys and gals that have strong competitive swimming or outrigger backgrounds have a big advantage. If they are genetically predisposed to kick ass, and possess one or both of the waterman skills I mentioned, they will beat almost anyone. I've raced against the fastest guys since my first race 10 years or so ago. So I knew where I stood, a can see the ground I've made up over the years. I've trained with some very experienced paddlers, and learned how to be a better paddler. I grew up living at the beach, surfing, body surfing, swimming in the ocean, windsurfing, sailing, etc... BUT never had a paddle in my hands till I started to SUP. Every time I paddle, I focus on my stroke. I pay attention to the guide my board has, and don't just stab my paddle down as fast as I can like I used to. It's not how fast you can paddle, it's how efficiently you maintain high speeds. When I started racing, I was a good 40 to 50 minutes behind Rob Rojas and Danny Ching. Now 10 years later, I'm 13 min. behind them in that same 5 mile race.

The funny thing is, I'm not in the shape I was 10 years ago (in my early 40's). I'm 25 lbs heavier, but still beat my times from the prior years. One of our SoCal locals Dale M. who is a past competitive outrigger paddler and in his 60's, beat all the 14' SUP men from the 60+ and 50+ groups. He was 5 min. behind Chase. He's in great shape + he knows how to paddle efficiently. Now if I can just lose that 25 lbs, maybe I can close the gap by a few more minutes? That would be great, and I would be more than happy with that result. I was built to swing an 8 lbs sludge hammer, not a 17 oz paddle. The bottom line is, you'll probably never be as fast as Chase, or Danny, or Kai, or Conner, but you have room for improvement. As do we all.
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Eagle

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2017, 09:00:42 PM »
"More strength, more aerobic endurance, more efficient/effective technique, more skill in maintaining speed upwind and multiplying speed downwind, etc."

Very unfair.  Chase did ok in this short 5 miler as well.  But just think how much faster Kai and Connor are -> compared to Chase and Larry on something longer like the M2O.  Scary.  Very scary.   :o
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Luc Benac

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2017, 06:53:13 AM »
It was a 13.5 km race in choppy water on the Gulf of Mexico, 50% upwind, 50% downwind.
, with an average speed of 8.61 kph.


I would dream to have an average of 8.61 km/h on 13 km. It will take some serious downwind to make that time.
So the gap between people extend a lot more than just the top competitors.......
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PonoBill

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2017, 07:58:30 AM »
Warning: Pedantic and obvious post. But there seems to be genuine confusion about this question.

There's a world of difference in any sport between the weekend warriors, the semi-serious, semi-pro, and the full-on pro. Semi-pros may or may not have genetic and experiential advantages and they train fairly hard, but they do other things--like work, or do other sports, or read a book.

Pros focus on a sport with single-minded discipline, way beyond what a weekend warrior imagines. And still most of them don't reach the pinnacle--the people you see at the top are the 1 percent of the one percent. For every Connor Baxter there are a hundred Chase Kosterlitz's. The guys at the very top are born into it, have genetic advantages (probably because their parents were champion or near-champion level as well), have supportive parents who exposed them to the sport very early, know how to train and do so--unendingly, specifically, scientifically. And still, they don't all make it and have trouble staying on top. Kai, for example, is serious about too many semi-related sports to consistently outscore his competition in SUP.

You can admire the pros, and view their performance level as a goal to aim at, but unless you are willing to train consistently, unendingly, and at that level, then you won't get close. And unless you had the genetic advantages and early exposure and support you won't reach pro level. Most of us have other things we'd like to do--like have an occasional burger and a beer.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 08:02:00 AM by PonoBill »
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warmuth

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2017, 08:18:35 AM »
It was a 13.5 km race in choppy water on the Gulf of Mexico, 50% upwind, 50% downwind.
, with an average speed of 8.61 kph.


I would dream to have an average of 8.61 km/h on 13 km. It will take some serious downwind to make that time.
So the gap between people extend a lot more than just the top competitors.......

  Next time I'm at the same race as Flwindsup I'm going to ask him the same relative questions about why he's so much faster than me hah.

ukgm

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2017, 09:10:28 AM »
It's not just how well an elite or pro athlete trains, it's how well they can recover and then super compensate. People underestimate how much energy a job and family can take away. I get a major hike in power output in my cycling every year I go on annual leave over summer for a month or two.

ukgm

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2017, 09:18:01 AM »
In addition, it's good to have a bit of context on the conditions before people get too worried about the speed. For example, I'm not going to feature against the names given in this thread but at our first major race in the U.K. the other week, the winner held a 10.1kph average that was downriver but into a headwind. I think I was a hairs width under 10kph and that only got me 12th.

Eagle

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2017, 09:43:44 AM »
M40-49 NH 5:58  JR 6:09
M30-39 TG 4:50  SG 5:00
M1-29 CB 5:02  KL 5:07

Have paddled with Norm and he is quick and strong placing second behind Bart in the Yukon endurance race.  In the M2O 2013 he was about an hour behind the top 4.  He told me the top guys are phenomenal and no way could he even stay close.

Mike told me that he could keep up with Travis to the first buoy -> but Travis simply pulled away from there and did not slow down until he finished first.  Makes you realize very quickly how crappy of a paddler you really are.  Remember Larry was an Olympic paddler winning Gold and Silver in 84.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 09:50:49 AM by Eagle »
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FloridaWindSUP

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2017, 10:52:25 AM »
It's not just how well an elite or pro athlete trains, it's how well they can recover and then super compensate. People underestimate how much energy a job and family can take away. I get a major hike in power output in my cycling every year I go on annual leave over summer for a month or two.

I wonder if that's why I often see 50-something year old amateur paddlers outperforming 20-40-something amateur paddlers. They're not stressing about young kids and work as much so they can get more into a healthy training and recovery routine.
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burchas

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Re: Big speed gap between pros and amateurs
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2017, 11:12:28 AM »
I wonder if that's why I often see 50-something year old amateur paddlers outperforming 20-40-something amateur paddlers...

That's called experience... saw some geezers passing me by downwinding, leaving me in the
dust and they didn't even look like they were paddling.

LaPerouseBay put it perfectly:

http://www.davidkalama.com/breath/

http://www.davidkalama.com/dont-rush/

http://www.davidkalama.com/sequencing/

http://www.davidkalama.com/slow-down-to-speed-up/

should probably carve it on my board as a reminder
in progress...

 


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