The fun of unlimited boards

[addapost]

I'm not sure a performance comparison with skis or kayaks is valid, other than storage and transport. SUP boards are subject to ocean and wind conditions in very different ways than boats are. In my experience, it is pretty easy to do anything you want in a sea kayak, upwind, down-wind, cross-wind, big seas, side chop, quartering seas, who cares? It's all easy in a sea kayak. On a SUP? Unless it's downwind, forget it. Apples and oranges
Also, the primary reason I started looking at SUP 8 years ago after over 10 years of high level sea kayaking, was exactly because I was sick of hauling around a 45+ pound, 18 foot fiberglass tube. SUP was so much simpler.

[photofr]

The storage and transport aspect is, sorry, but a somewhat ridiculous aspect. I live in an apartment, and have bene for the last two years, right here in France (yeah, that's part of Europe). I don't even own a car...

With statement like that, clearly France discovered teleportation, No?

We all know that there's always a solution.

For my immediate storage and transport problems, the solution is parking my equipment on a neighbor's land. He lives 30 meters from the ocean.

COST: couple of bottles of wine (super cheap in France) and a cake every few months as a thank you.

[burchas]

The storage and transport aspect is, sorry, but a somewhat ridiculous aspect. I live in an apartment, and have bene for the last two years, right here in France (yeah, that's part of Europe). I don't even own a car...

With statement like that, clearly France discovered teleportation, No?

We all know that there's always a solution.

For my immediate storage and transport problems, the solution is parking my equipment on a neighbor's land. He lives 30 meters from the ocean.

COST: couple of bottles of wine (super cheap in France) and a cake every few months as a thank you.

Yeah,  tried that with my neighbors, they called 911

I believe there is always a solution as well but saying the storage and transportation problem is
absurd? frequently the solution is absurd. Case in point:

For my immediate storage and transport problems, the solution: cut the board in half
COST: $5000 ouch! (This sh*t is super expensive in the US)

Even if there is always a solution, it doesn't mean it's always executable. Sure, If was living alone,
I would just move closer to the water and be done, but when operating in a family unit.. well I'm sure the are people here that can better explain it.

[surf4food]

Wow.  Some interesting response and things I never considered.  I'll admit, I didn't really think about Europe since I don't live there (though I'm aware of it's higher density living situation for most people).  Area 10, you mentioned club houses but none are SUP specific.  So why can't boards be stored in the same clubhouse long with skis, OCs, skulls etc? I would think in 2016 a lot of these paddle clubs would now be including SUP.   

[Area 10]

So, if you don't know why Unlimited boards are safer in Open Ocean, ASK... but saying that a 12'6 board is safer in Open Ocean is completely absurd.

OK, well if that statement is aimed at me, it is not only misrepresenting what I said, but also very blinkered. My point, if you read it properly, was that it is not correct to state that UL ruddered boards are necessarily safer than shorter fixed fin ones. This is not at all the same as saying that shorter boards are safer. To illustrate my point, here is a situation where an UL board is NOT safer than a shorter board, and where a rudder will be just a liability:



Here is another situation where UL boards are (a) not faster, (b) not safer, and (c) a rudder will be worse then a fixed fin:


And here is another situation where an UL board is not faster than a shorter board and in fact the UL board might actually be LESS safe:


And here are the typical conditions I downwind in (the paddler is Steve West of Mistral, not me). A rudder is not going to help you quarter against wind and waves here, and in fact a big ruddered UL board can be a right handful. Frequently the currents and wave action upon the length of the hull are so strong that the rudder just flips about like a crisp packet in a breeze, and you lose control. You are better off with a fixed fin that can give you some control:



Put this together with the fact that the most significant race in the entire SUP calendar worldwide is the BOP/PPG, it is easy to see why UL boards are seen as a niche market to many outside Hawaii.

But I suspect I should be saving my breath. You seem to have made up your mind, and are dismissing the opinions and explanations of many people here who have made reasoned attempts to explain why UL boards might indeed be great in certain situations, but that they can be practically impossible for many people in many situations, and therefore it is no use telling people that they are stupid for not having one, which seems to be the message you are trying to get across. Everyone here agrees, I think, that UL boards have their place, and are great for some people in some situations and some applications. But it seems to be only you that refuses to acknowledge that they aren't the answer to everything. Please try to be a little more understanding of the multiplicity of uses and situations that the entire spectrum of SUP paddlers are dealing with.

[Area 10]

Wow.  Some interesting response and things I never considered.  I'll admit, I didn't really think about Europe since I don't live there (though I'm aware of it's higher density living situation for most people).  Area 10, you mentioned club houses but none ur SUP specific.  So why can't board be stored n the same clubhouse long with skis, OCs, skulls etc? I would think in 2016 a lot of these paddle clubs would now be including SUP.

Yes, this is a critical issue I think, and it's a good question. I suspect that in time SUPers might indeed integrate with other ocean paddler. But most SUPers don't come from a paddling background (instead, windsurf, kitesurf, surfing, sailing, yoga/fitness, thriathletes etc.) and most other paddle sports regard SUPing as a bit of a novelty joke. There are a few lifesaving clubs where boards could be stored perhaps, but the trouble there is that surfers hate us...

So, as with so many things in life, I guess it just comes down to the way people tend to separate themselves into tribes, and the long time it takes to break down those barriers. And, to a certain extent, the failure of SUP as a sport so far to get itself organised, with national and international governing bodies etc. In Europe, SUP is principally marketed mainly to kitesurfers and windsurfers as a thing to do when there is no wind. It doesn't yet fully have its own identity.

[PonoBill]

Photo, what is your maximum speed (at flat calm) on each of the two boards?

AH.... you make a very good point. I may have made a mistake stating that my UL is faster. Please allow me to rectify that by saying:

Without a doubt, my UL is faster on anything more than a 1-mile course - by about 15% !!!

To answer your question:
On a pure sprint, and totally flat water, I can hit a top speed of about 12 kmh on my UL, but about 12.8 on my 14-footer. Granted, it feels a whole lot easier to Sprint and Go on the 14-footer.

I think you answered your own question to some degree. I suspect that your paddle technique changes between these two boards. It's very inefficient to paddle substantially faster than a board is going--the only way you can do so is to increase the amount of slip across the paddle face, which is a lot of wasted energy. There is a proper cadence for every paddler, for every board speed. If you look at the curves of skin friction drag and wave drag, there is a point where wave drag becomes greater than skin friction and starts to increase rapidly. Right around that point is the most efficient place to hold speed. The longer the hull, the higher speed that point occurs.

In a sprint, the smaller hull with lower skin friction will accelerate quickly and the efficiency is not so important. Boards may get pushed past their froude "limit" in a sprint, but even paddlers that aren't as strong can push a smaller board further along the curve. Over longer distances it's hard to hold an inefficient speed.

[photofr]

@ AREA10
A longer board is not necessarily safer, but add a rudder to a longer board and it will be far safer in Open Ocean. I keep saying open ocean paddling for a longer board, and you show us: Rivers, Shore breaks, and/or conditions that misrepresent stand up paddling (and perhaps the entire DW scene in the UK).

Clearly, your 4 images do not represent the majority of SUP users. Heck, most paddler wouldn't even make it on any one of those images with ANY BOARD. I don't think recommending a UL, a 12'6, or a 9-footer would help them.

You are taking things to the extreme, while I am aiming at the majority of SUP users who would benefit from using an Unlimited board with a rudder.

[photofr]

Photo, what is your maximum speed (at flat calm) on each of the two boards?

AH.... you make a very good point. I may have made a mistake stating that my UL is faster. Please allow me to rectify that by saying:

Without a doubt, my UL is faster on anything more than a 1-mile course - by about 15% !!!

To answer your question:
On a pure sprint, and totally flat water, I can hit a top speed of about 12 kmh on my UL, but about 12.8 on my 14-footer. Granted, it feels a whole lot easier to Sprint and Go on the 14-footer.

I think you answered your own question to some degree. I suspect that your paddle technique changes between these two boards. It's very inefficient to paddle substantially faster than a board is going--the only way you can do so is to increase the amount of slip across the paddle face, which is a lot of wasted energy. There is a proper cadence for every paddler, for every board speed. If you look at the curves of skin friction drag and wave drag, there is a point where wave drag becomes greater than skin friction and starts to increase rapidly. Right around that point is the most efficient place to hold speed. The longer the hull, the higher speed that point occurs.

In a sprint, the smaller hull with lower skin friction will accelerate quickly and the efficiency is not so important. Boards may get pushed past their froude "limit" in a sprint, but even paddlers that aren't as strong can push a smaller board further along the curve. Over longer distances it's hard to hold an inefficient speed.

I agree with you in theory, but in practice, I am afraid I do not.

REF.: www.tourfr.com/sup/speed-stats.pdf

Tests conducted with 5 people clearly showed that everyone was faster on the UL board (lighter, heavier, strong and weak paddlers alike).

Personal data (with 1000's of km) has showed me that I am substantially faster on all longer than 1 km distances - using the UL.

So how do you explain that I can paddle without fatigue for 6 hours straight using a UL board, and still average a better speed than 30 minutes on a 12'6 race board ?

[PonoBill]

I thought I just did.

[photofr]

... A small person with a high power to weight ratio won't find an 18' board to be the fastest board for them (unless their power to weight ratio is astronomical). A larger person with a somewhat lower P/W ratio generally can make the 18 board go faster. Might still get toasted by the smaller person on a 14, but it's a better board for them in the right conditions.

PONO:
Unless I am mistaking, you are saying that I (being a feather-weight) should be faster on a 14 footer. Why is all my data showing that I am always faster on my Unlimited board?

With all respect, I am trying to understand what you are saying. Could you clarify?

[comeu]

@photofr
" I can paddle without fatigue for 6 hours straight using a UL board, "

Waow! You start feeling fatigue after how many hours?

"and still average a better speed than 30 minutes on a 12'6 race board ?"

X12 longer effort and more speed!
[emoji75]

[hefwiezen16]

So, as with so many things in life, I guess it just comes down to the way people tend to separate themselves into tribes, and the long time it takes to break down those barriers. And, to a certain extent, the failure of SUP as a sport so far to get itself organised, with national and international governing bodies etc. In Europe, SUP is principally marketed mainly to kitesurfers and windsurfers as a thing to do when there is no wind. It doesn't yet fully have its own identity.


     We who are in the UL crew are simply trying to not be negated for our efforts, and be listed (or not) into the "also-ran" category in the press release,  when in fact, we were the first SUP across the finish line.   For real, this just happened to me. CONSPIRACY THEORY!!!
      Humans as a species will always find a way to hate and separate themselves from one another, be it by race, religion, creed,  color or penis length.  Some call it bonding, cliques or niches.    We are programmed by 100's of thousands of years of evolution to unite and fight.      A wise person, currently #10 in the women's world rankings, told me not long ago that we are too small a sport to spread negativity.  Her talking point is beyond the scope of this discussion, but reigns true.      The decline of UL is driven by many factors, Money is #1, and not just from manufacturers.    In my locale, OC1 is being promoted as the next big thing, primarily by a local market-savvy shop.    After 20 years of sit- down paddling in all forms, I went to stand up 1/2 dozen years ago or so  as a new challenge.   I'm not about to go back; except for kayak surfing, that shit ROCKS!!!!
      I've been in the thick of MTBer VS hikers VS horses  BS for decades.    Do what makes YOU happy, join a club and argue online with people you've never met,  then post your cat videos.

[Area 10]

"Penis length"? I've never heard the separation of men and women into different race classes that way, but I guess that is one way. You might get a tough time as a race scrutineer though

[surf4food]

"Penis length"? I've never heard the separation of men and women into different race classes that way, but I guess that is one way. You might get a tough time as a race scrutineer though

Perhaps Cialis could be a major sponsor at the next PPGs.