Laugh at Trump all you want

[mrbig]

Ignorance and stupidity are very different attributes; I also suspect Reality TV's emotional IQ might limit him to pre-school..

[surf4food]

Well one thing's for sure.   This election cycle is making for some heated polarization and some very entertaining online back and forth.  At least on the Zone everyone for the most part is pretty civil. 

[Admin]

Right, it's a mixture of state/crony capitalism, fascism, socialism and enough free market to keep the tax cattle producing and consuming. I like Bernie cuz he's real and I agree with a lot of what he says but then he goes down that dark road of state socialism which will require more of that evil thing called "government." I wish someone would introduce Bernie to the philosophy of Voluntaryism because all that free stuff he promises (and regulations) requires enforcement backed by violence or the threat of violence.

You mentioned something about "human nature" but human nature is like a liquid in that it takes the shape of whatever vessel it is poured in. My point is that we aren't all the same based on how we were raised, etc.

Human nature, not a human's nature.  In a society, there will always be some, that without law and regulation, will seek unfair personal advantage to the detriment of the whole.

It doesn't require violence to manage common sense regulation, but enforcement, certainly.  In terms of Wall Street and the banks these regulations were put in place with the New Deal and remained there until the Clinton era.

[supsurf-tw]

What's even more fucked? California is going 15 dollar minimum.

Right. Same amount of money spread over fewer people and those people having to work harder to make up for fewer employees. Not sure what was accomplished here.

[Weasels wake]

What's even more fucked? California is going 15 dollar minimum.

Right. Same amount of money spread over fewer people and those people having to work harder to make up for fewer employees. Not sure what was accomplished here.

It will be very interesting, $15 minimum for a state that has two of the largest sanctuary cities in the country (LA & SF), combined with the nations breadbasket of the central valley.  It's not going to be a pretty picture.

[pdxmike]

What's even more fucked? California is going 15 dollar minimum.

Right. Same amount of money spread over fewer people and those people having to work harder to make up for fewer employees. Not sure what was accomplished here.

It will be very interesting, $15 minimum for a state that has two of the largest sanctuary cities in the country (LA & SF), combined with the nations breadbasket of the central valley.  It's not going to be a pretty picture.

I've always viewed minimum wage laws from the standpoint of the employee, ever since I started out by being able to be hired because I was willing to work at a low wage, in order to get some great experience in a position where my lack of experience meant I was almost totally unproductive at the outset.


So to me, the question is, "Should a person willing to work at $14/hr. (or whatever is under the min. proposed wage) be prohibited by law from doing so?"  Minimum wages restrict employees as much as employers.

[Bean]

Good question Mike.  Recent attempts to provide exemptions for seasonal employees and employees of non-profit organizations have been largely shot down.  This of course leaves few options for those willing to work for less, including adding to the underground economy.  Oh the unintended consequences of stupidity...

[SuppaTime]

So to me, the question is, "Should a person willing to work at $14/hr. (or whatever is under the min. proposed wage) be prohibited by law from doing so?"  Minimum wages restrict employees as much as employers.

In a labor market with a large unskilled pool of workers all competing for work, allowing them to bargain down the wage will start a bidding war for lowest wage and the bottom will fall out of the wages being paid. That will effectively obviate the $15 minimum law.

In a labor market with a small pool of workers, employers will be competing with each other to hire from the pool. In that case wages are being driven up since the workers are a scarce resource, and there is no need for a minimum wage law.

So the minimum wage law is only needed in situation #1, but as discussed above the law would be rendered useless if employees had the choice to work for less.

[tautologies]

If you think the Republican race is freaky, wait until Hilary gets indicted.

These creeps protect their own kind. Both Bush's are still free and since her rapist "husband" Bill hasn't been put in a cage then I doubt they will do anything to Hitlery. Hope springs eternal, though.

LOL what are you on?

[pdxmike]

So to me, the question is, "Should a person willing to work at $14/hr. (or whatever is under the min. proposed wage) be prohibited by law from doing so?"  Minimum wages restrict employees as much as employers.

In a labor market with a large unskilled pool of workers all competing for work, allowing them to bargain down the wage will start a bidding war for lowest wage and the bottom will fall out of the wages being paid. That will effectively obviate the $15 minimum law.

In a labor market with a small pool of workers, employers will be competing with each other to hire from the pool. In that case wages are being driven up since the workers are a scarce resource, and there is no need for a minimum wage law.

So the minimum wage law is only needed in situation #1, but as discussed above the law would be rendered useless if employees had the choice to work for less.

Yes, I agree that that's all true, and the fact that it's true is part of my point--the minimum wage prohibits job seekers from offering to work for less, no matter what their circumstances.


The part that is a wild card is unpaid internships.  Well-off kids can bypass minimum wage rules altogether to get experience, by working for nothing.  And if the min. wage is set so high that experienced people are happy to earn it, it's going to get tough for inexperienced people to get experience.  You'll get clear winners, but also clear losers.  And the losers are the entry-level people who don't get hired, but might for less money.

[spookini]

I think the crux of the argument is..  is minimum wage something primarily earned by kids flipping burgers?  Or is it a poor subsitute for a living wage?

I don't have the empirical answer.., but I know the Repubs argue the former, Dems the latter.

The whole "let suppy and demand set the wage" assumes a perfect market, which of course there isn't. 
Walk into Burger King looking for a job, they'd gladly pay you $2/hr if they could.

"Nobody would work for that wage" is similar to Trump's "I use seasonal workers at my Florida resort, b/c no Americans want to work in the heat" -- pure BS!!

[spookini]

Thanks, Google.

[TN_SUP]

I'm all for a livable wage, the same companies that are bitching pay their CEOs $20k an hour.

[Bean]

"Nobody would work for that wage" is similar to Trump's "I use seasonal workers at my Florida resort, b/c no Americans want to work in the heat" -- pure BS!!

Yes, that is total BS, heat has nothing to do with it.  The fact is, the foreign workers are much better received by the Mar a Lago members...

[Weasels wake]

So okay, once you get your first job, fresh out of high school, or even earlier (seasonal work, 18 or younger) you should be able to support yourself, housing, transportation, groceries, and all that, and maybe even some kids.
Sorry, that will never pencil out as fitting into a healthy economy, never.
People have lost themselves over the notion of a "living wage".

If you're older and still working for M.W. well then you'll need to reassess where the hell you are going.  It's like the rest of us are supposed to be responsible for other people's stupid choices?
I'm sorry but reality has to have some consequensis (sp, I know) attached to it, otherwise what's the point?  Nobody learns anything.
The wheel goes round and round, nothing improves, for anybody, due to the inflation that it will bring.