QB V-drive: 91 or 101 for downwinding

[atlanticsup]

I've tried a V-drive and really like the 'bite' of it - it just feels like the right type of paddle to get for downwinding, mainly as it seems to connect with the water so well.

I am mainly using a Starboard Enduro Medium for my downwinding which is only 81in2 though when I compared to the 101 for a short session (and admittedly slightly shorter paddle), I would almost say the 101 felt easier for me than the Enduro which seems counterintuitive (I am 6ft1, 175-180 pounds, mainly use a 14 footer though also have an unlimited which I use 1 out of 5 or 6 DW sessions). I think it is because the V-drive does not 'slip' sideways, and in any case, put side by side does not actually seem more than 5% bigger so it may just be the Starboard sizing as I think my Large (89in2) is pretty much the same size as the V-drive 101.

I also see the guys who are say 5'10 and 160 pounds seem to be saying the 91in2 V-drive is for them.

What is the view on these paddles. I almost feel that I sit between the 91 and 101 (according to QB's generic calcs I would be a 94), though think the 101 is probably the better option for DW conditions (and does not feel to big for me). I tend to paddle high cadence (or I think high cadence) when taking runs, and feel the 101 will allow me slightly better cadence than the enduro, though obviously the 91 even more so.

What is the trend nowadays in this regard (and yes I know I should try but it is not that easy to borrow)

[PonoBill]

Really, those criteria don't have as much to do with paddle size selection as you might think. I've said this main times before, but it was brought home again yesterday when I did a downwinder with Devin Blish, who is half my size (really) and paddles a Molokai, which is the biggest paddle Ke Nalu makes. I was paddling a Konihi 84.

I haven't used a V-drive, but everyone who has says they have a great catch and are very smooth. In general, people say "smooth" to mean that the paddle doesn't wobble or vibrate. You can learn to overcome wobble, but it takes energy, so paddles that are smooth don't use up your energy and make your arms as tired. So you can get away with a bigger blade if you like.

The biggest determinant for downwind is cadence and how you like to get into bumps. If you reach way out and give two or three quick, short strokes, then the smaller blade is fine. If you like to plant the blade and torque yourself into the bump then bigger is the way to go. Devin is a torquer, despite her diminutive size. I'm a dabber, despite my lumbering mass.

[covesurfer]

No, I'm not in a contest with PB to see who can post the most on the same threads. But, I guess we are interested in some of the same topics.

I've paddled the most with Ke Nalu's and also own a V Drive. I still use my Ke Nalu Wiki (the smallest blade size) for surfing and you end up paddling a lot when you surf. Getting back out over breakers is not to be done with a paddle that isn't 100%. I also have downwinded a lot with both the Wiki and the medium sized Ke Nalu blade, the Maliko. I love the Ke Nalus because they have a super positive catch, great swing weight and don't wobble or flutter much at all.

I tried a V-drive last summer and liked it a lot. Then I got one, a 91, which is relatively small. But, it is super powerful. My rave response to the V drive is because it catches like a much larger blade, feels much more powerful than it's square inches would suggest and, it doesn't wobble. The weird blade face shape also seems to help the paddle pop out of the water at the end of the stroke. Because it is, in fact, a relatively small blade, you can really hit a fast cadence with it and that comes in very handy on downwinders when you're chasing and trying to stay in glides. It's all I use for downwinding now. Only downside is that I ended up owning around 7 paddles after 3 or 4 years....

[Area 10]

I have both size V-Drives. The 91 is more flexible in terms of the ways you can use it. PonoBill described the two main methods for getting onto a bump well. I use both methods depending on the conditions and the bigger blade is slightly harder to use in "high cadence mode " than the smaller one is in "dig deep" mode. The smaller blade is also better for upwind or crosswind sections.

I think QB do an even smaller one now. I'd like that for surfing.

Get the oval tapered shaft if you can afford it. It complements the v-drive blade well. I have four of the oval tapered shafts and play around with different blades. Compared to the round shaft it seems to make all the blades work better. But having said that, I know some people don't like the smaller handle of the tapered shaft. Personally, I love it and it has reduced blistering and hand fatigue considerably. Paddle choice is a very personal thing.

[yugi]

What's the overall stiffness difference between the oval and round shaft for the V-drive? I've spent time on the oval one and only a moment with a round one. I thought the round one had the classic kind of flex (constant arch). I heard the round might be stiffer though. Any insight on this?

[Area 10]

What's the overall stiffness difference between the oval and round shaft for the V-drive? I've spent time on the oval one and only a moment with a round one. I thought the round one had the classic kind of flex (constant arch). I heard the round might be stiffer though. Any insight on this?

No doubt that would depend on what stiffness round shaft you'd specified. But in general the oval feels less stiff to me. But if course that's the clever bit about the tapered shaft - it bends more between your hands than it does between your bottom hand and the blade, and the stiffness will depend on how long the shaft is, so smaller people generally get a softer shaft. The oval tapered shaft feels really good, flex wise IMO. A great compromise between being soft enough to be kind to your body, and stiff enough to get the power down. Clever stuff.

[atlanticsup]

Thanks all for the comments. I have no idea if I am a high cadence or low cadence -I feel pretty high cadence on the runs but I suspect I am somewhere in between. Around these parts I think the trend is towards the larger size(and maybe it is as the run's are straight with the strong wind on your back so one can get away with it). I think I will definitely try the 91 si though as this would still be more powerful than my current blade and be more versatile in side winds, or lighter winds.

I am still surprised no-one else has not come to the table with another design  (though I do see a starboard overkdrive coming out) that results in reduced side flutter as I do think there is some merit to the concept, more so in downwinding possibly.

[Area 10]

I am still surprised no-one else has not come to the table with another design  (though I do see a starboard overkdrive coming out) that results in reduced side flutter as I do think there is some merit to the concept, more so in downwinding possibly.

The Starboard Overdrive looks to be a design that is, umm.. "heavily inspired" by the V-Drive. It's been covered on this forum before. I guess that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Shame that Starboard couldn't come up with a new idea of their own though. QB and Ke Nalu do seem to be leading innovation in blade design at the moment, IMO.

"Flutter" has also been discussed a lot here. It is usually more about the paddler than the paddle. Or at least, is an interaction between the paddler and the paddle. Usually it goes away when you become more familiar with a paddle.

I sometimes feel that I would like a V-Drive that is between the 101 and 91 in size. The 91 does slip a little for me. But then again the GPS says I'm faster with the 91 even though I "feel" faster with the 101. I think that some people use blades that are too big for them because bigger blades can give a satisfying feeling of effort. But I'm not sure it always results in faster speeds. I suspect that a smaller blade not only increases cadence, and reduces fatigue, but may also affect your stroke in other more subtle ways. It's heresy to suggest it, I know, but I've even wondered sometimes whether a little slip might be helpful.

When DWing, I think the issue of cadence is much more one of choice than with flat water. So it's more like surfing in that respect. If you surf with a big blade you'll probably want to DW with one too.

[PonoBill]

I know what you mean Area10. the Ke Nalu Konihi 84 feels like it slips a lot for me, and I feel like I'm faster with the 95, but the GPS shows a huge speed advantage to the 84 in flatwater. I keep testing it because I don't believe it, and I keep getting the same result.

For downwind, I think the 95 gets me into more bumps, but my fastest runs have been with the 84, which again, feels like it's not doing much. I think there are too many other factors for that data to be useful, but it's still trending towards the smaller blade. Irritating.

I also note that after a downwind with the 95, or worse yet, a big Molokai, my arms and shoulders are dead, though I feel very satisfied that I did well on the water. With the 84 my times might be better, and my arms and shoulders feel like I didn't do anything.

I know that flutter goes away, but I think it might do so at a cost. I think it contributes to fatigue. I haven't tried this test with a V-Drive, but I suspect it's the same--I stand at the edge of a pool with a Konihi and pull it straight towards me through the water--generating 100 percent slip. Most paddles go wild when you do that. The Konihi pulls straight through the water. It will be interesting to try that with a V-drive. I bet it's similar.

I think the reason other manufacturers aren't doing much in the way of paddle innovation is that customers aren't really demanding it. I don't think many people understand that the right paddle can offer as much of a performance boost as the right board. I think the pros get it though. They're more careful about taking care of their favorite paddle than they are about their boards.

[Off-Shore]

I can't speak for the V-Drive but I do have the SB Enduro 475, 525 and 550 and have experimented with all 3 sizes downwinding. My favourite is the 525 and at 5'11 and 180 this works for me on my F16v3 or Bulet 14v1. The 550 gives me sore shoulders and tires me. I use this mainly for SUS. The 475 was my first paddle and as I got stronger I found too small for everything including downwinding. I do have a QB 91 Trifecta with the oval shaft which I love for cruising and flat water or general racing. For downwinding it does not work for me though. Too much flutter / wobble right after the catch for those big transition moments when you have to paddle hard. It frustrates me compared to the predictable Enduro 525. Maybe the V-Drive is better.

[headmount]

I've tried the 84 and 95 Konihi and while I liked the 84, especially for the low load on the shoulders, psychologically the 95 just feels right when I need a bump.  With it if I go hard, almost any bump falls into my lap. A bump will slip by under me if I take a breather... then Shep and Cove slip away.  Just not in shape enough to keep it going non stop for 10 miles.

[yugi]

I know what you mean Area10. the Ke Nalu Konihi 84 feels like it slips a lot for me, and I feel like I’m faster with the 95, but the GPS shows a huge speed advantage to the 84 in flatwater. I keep testing it because I don’t believe it, and I keep getting the same result.
…

Remind us your routine for speed tests please.

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What is the view on these paddles. I almost feel that I sit between the 91 and 101 (according to QB’s generic calcs I would be a 94),
…

Atlantic,
Why don’t you try a Trifecta 96? Or Konihi 95.

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I do have a QB 91 Trifecta with the oval shaft which I love for cruising and flat water or general racing. For down winding it does not work for me though. Too much flutter / wobble right after the catch for those big transition moments when you have to paddle hard.
…

You mean 96, right?

I was just using a Trifecta the other day on a DW. I feel the exact opposite. Seems supremely unwooblabale to me. I find the Trifecta same as the V-drive in stability, just a bit smoother.  The 96 Trifecta feels smaller than it is coz it’s so smooth and V-drive 91 bigger, due to that strong initial catch. The Trifecta does have a bit more power mid stroke where power is optimal. V-drive catches and jumps out of the water eagerly.

I feel like I could be happy with either. I should speed test the 2 to measure which really works best. Hence my initial question.

[Off-Shore]

...
I do have a QB 91 Trifecta with the oval shaft which I love for cruising and flat water or general racing. For down winding it does not work for me though. Too much flutter / wobble right after the catch for those big transition moments when you have to paddle hard.
...

You mean 96, right?

I was just using a Trifecta the other day on a DW. I feel the exact opposite. Seems supremely unwooblabale to me. I find the Trifecta same as the V-drive in stability, just a bit smoother.  The 96 Trifecta feels smaller than it is coz it's so smooth and V-drive 91 bigger, due to that strong initial catch. The Trifecta does have a bit more power mid stroke where power is optimal. V-drive catches and jumps out of the water eagerly.

I feel like I could be happy with either. I should speed test the 2 to measure which really works best. Hence my initial question.

Yes I mean 96... I'm interested to hear you don't get wobble or flutter with it on a downwind. I only get this when I'm trying to really leverage on the catch part of the stroke in a downwind, usually in lower winds when I'm trying to get onto the glide or link from one bump to another. Frustrates the hell out of me as I never get that with the Endure 525.. For normal paddling or racing, I don't have any issues with the Trifecta. I prefer it for racing.

[yugi]

Racer expert dude who lent me his Trifecta scolded me a few times for pulling before blade fully set. Not allowed! (the telltale is noise). Try make sure that isn't going on. It's more tempting on downwinds than flatwater. I thought I wasn't doing it but I obviously was. (we were downwinding)

[Off-Shore]

Racer expert dude who lent me his Trifecta scolded me a few times for pulling before blade fully set. Not allowed! (the telltale is noise). Try make sure that isn't going on. It's more tempting on downwinds than flatwater. I thought I wasn't doing it but I obviously was. (we were downwinding)

Yugi. That sounds right. In those moments I may be pulling before the set and it is more noticeable on the QB Trifecta than with the SB Enduro