Will it downwind? Yes or No?

[Eagle]

QB - Interestingly when I talked to Norm about the M2O - I asked him about Travis and Connor and Kai - and he said they are all super fast.  So was thinking - ok I am fairly fast compared to my peers.  I can pull away from most the guys I paddle with.  But then Norm can pulł away from me in an instant.  And Travis can pull away from Norm and Mike from SB.  And Connor and Kai can pull away from Travis and Danny in a sprint. 

So I think - ok I am thus very old - am relatively feeble - and have pretty crappy balance - even though I can paddle my AS23 ok and can stay dry.  Because they all can crush the M2O - plus spin their body in a 360 on a windy DW run - and can do backflips and land dry on a board.  It just makes you realize how crappy of a paddler you really are in comparison.  Haha.  Nevertheless that is ok because I am older than them.  This is my excuse and I am sticking to that.   

[PonoBill]

And in the case of Connor and Kai, they've been doing stuff like that since they were babies.

[Eagle]

From this quick ss it looks like the paddle Clement has in his hands is the SB High Aspect in maybe the 550 or 600 he had painted blue.  I have that blade in 500 and it is fantastic for distance.  Fast high cadence and no pain or soreness.  Blackfish basically copied the design and I have their Race paddle as well in 500.  Basically the blade has a really nice catch and flicks nicely.  550 or 600 would work good for a DW - much more HP than the efficient 500.  600 has a lot of low end punch and grunt.

[Area 10]

What on earth is Colas using for a paddle?!?  It looks like one of the old Quickblade shovels that Laird liked. I don't remember the model name--there was the Kanaha--which was a good blade, and that thing, which was horrid.

I think the "Will it downwind" thread needs a lot of variability in judging. Especially since it's likely to eventually include a gutted refrigerator full of empty water bottles and the Nissan we spotted during a Maliko a few years ago. Kind of like the open class for racing--60 to dead isn't as definitive as 20-30. I suggest:

Class A -- board that looks like it should be good
Class B -- board that looks like it might not be good
Class C -- Board that you'd have to be nuts to try
Class D -- something that floats

I'd say the Think is a Class B board, which means if it doesn't toss you off every fifteen feet and it catches more than three bumps, the it's a yes.

This is a clever way of approaching it. But we also need some criteria for the conditions. *Anything* will meet your criteria if the wind is 15 knots and the bumps are ankle high.

I was thinking about this today while inward downbreezing. Wind was variable, around 20 knots. Bumps were only knee-high, but very steep because wind was acting against a strong tidal current. I was on a 16x24.5" fixed fin heavily rockered DW-specific board, and my buddy was on a Naish Glide Mk2. On the bumps we were using every bit of the rocker on our boards, and in the confused waters my friend was saying that he found the Naish hard to steer to follow the bumps. My board has what are essentially surfboard-like rails and so I was able to steer the board much more easily.

Now, if is have taken one of my flat water boards instead could I have downbreezed on it? Yes, of course. I'd have had to stay right back the whole time, and stay high on the bump, and I'd have missed tons of bumps, failed to make connections, pearled several times, been bucked off a couple (probably), and generally been fighting my board the whole way. But I'd have got there in the end, and there might even be a couple of moments when I was making respectable progress.

So, would I then say that the flat water board "downwinds"? Hmm...according to your criteria then it might be a "yes".

But raise the wind to 25knots+, and thigh-to-waist bumps and would you still say it downwinds? I'd probably just be a danger to myself on the same flat water board in those conditions and would definitely say "no".

So I'd say that if an average Joe cannot cope with 25knots and at least knee-high bumps on a board, as indicated by being able to maintain control, ride bumps without pearling more than 10% of the time, and being able to steer the board when in bumps, then a board doesn't really "downwind".  Being able to survive downbreeze conditions isn't the same as being able to actively downwind. Otherwise you might as well say an oak door supported by a couple of jerry cans can downwind.

But I'm certainly looking forward to the video where Offshore downwinds the new 14x25 Red Paddle race board in 25-35 knots and knee-to waist bumps. If he can do that for 5 miles, catch bumps, steer the board on them, and not fall more than 5 times (once a mile) then I'd be delighted to agree that the board downwinds. In fact, if that happens I'd probably place my order for one that same day

[Quickbeam]

QB - Interestingly when I talked to Norm about the M2O - I asked him about Travis and Connor and Kai - and he said they are all super fast.  So was thinking - ok I am fairly fast compared to my peers.  I can pull away from most the guys I paddle with.  But then Norm can pulł away from me in an instant.  And Travis can pull away from Norm and Mike from SB.  And Connor and Kai can pull away from Travis and Danny in a sprint. 

So I think - ok I am thus very old - am relatively feeble - and have pretty crappy balance - even though I can paddle my AS23 ok and can stay dry.  Because they all can crush the M2O - plus spin their body in a 360 on a windy DW run - and can do backflips and land dry on a board.  It just makes you realize how crappy of a paddler you really are in comparison.  Haha.  Nevertheless that is ok because I am older than them.  This is my excuse and I am sticking to that.   

Ha! Ha! That's funny! And yes, is always good to stay humble. In paddling, the skill of other paddlers and the water itself can keep us humble. I always liked the quote "The more I know, the more I know I don't know". I think that might someone apply here as well.   

[burchas]

But I'm certainly looking forward to the video where Offshore downwinds the new 14x25 Red Paddle race board in 25-35 knots and knee-to waist bumps. If he can do that for 5 miles, catch bumps, steer the board on them, and not fall more than 5 times (once a mile) then I'd be delighted to agree that the board downwinds. In fact, if that happens I'd probably place my order for one that same day

A10, I think your criteria speak to the your conditions. When you describe knee-to waist bumps I'm thinking 10-15 knots wind at most, I can't even imagine what a 25-35 knots will look like around here.

I have to work a lot harder to go on these steep bumps as the wind push is not that significant, but do fairly decent job keeping up on the board ( 1 dive every 4 mile or so) and even steer here and there and non of my boards are heavily rockered to say the least.

I can tell you that the Red 14x25 is less prone to pearl compared to my FX and is more responsive on the bumps, I can hit 10mph on an ankle high bumps, could not do it on my FX

The pictures below shows what kind of bumps we can get on 11mph wind at certain parts of the river. That's about Knee-thigh bumps kind of day.

The other one is speed of the Red board on a 12mph wind and ankle high (barely) bumps.

[Area 10]

Yep, I guess that was my point. It's a bold thing to claim that a board "downwinds" since as this thread illustrates nicely, what people call downwinding varies hugely. I certainly wouldn't call 11-12 mph winds downwinding - or even downbreezing - that's a calm flat water paddle to me. So, if you tell me that the board you use is good for downwinding and I go out and buy it, I could end up very disappointed. Just as many people who paddle in what I'd think of as flat water have bought downwind boards and been disappointed in their performance. If all you want to do is paddle in 10-15 mph winds then pretty much anything will do. Lucky you! It can be exhilarating living in a windy place, but sometimes I wouldn't mind if it was a little calmer more often. I don't necessarily want *every* session to be a battle with the elements, and the wind ruins the surf too.

[burchas]

Yep, I guess that was my point. It's a bold thing to claim that a board "downwinds" since as this thread illustrates nicely, what people call downwinding varies hugely. I certainly wouldn't call 11-12 mph winds downwinding - or even down breezing...

I think you're missing the point a little bit here. When off-shore claims a board can downwind, he backs it up with a well edited and all around good video that anyone can judge for them self if that answers their needs for their conditions.

As for conditions, it is very tricky thing to claim anything. I've never seen a video from you with all the relevant  on-screen metrics, showing your conditions so I can't speak to that, but lets put things in perspective by using Hood River, which is considered Downwind Mecca.

The top guys there are scratching the 8mph average for the run,
good experienced guys barely going over 6mph, and that's on a good day. So if I was never there (I was, and I did few runs their on an FX mind you) and I would go with your logic, I would say, "meh, that's a joke, I can do a 8mph average run right here near home and I only need a 15mph wind for it".

Lets take it even further. I was in Maui on a downwind run with Jeremy Riggs. We averaged close to 11mph (56 minutes) for the Maliko run (all the way to the harbor ). That day was 18mph -21mph, If I'm using your logic, that's barely a downbreeze...

As for the boards, If I (an average paddler) could do a downwind run on Hood River on an 14x25 FX (with only 5 dives) I would think it's safe to assume this board will do well in various conditions, I can tell you that the Red 14x25 is faster (and not pearling as much) in clean conditions, so will it downwind? I guess it depends who you ask...

[DavidJohn]

It makes me think if you had a topic about surfing called 'Will it surf' and posting that vid of Kelly Slater surfing a door and claiming.. Yes.. a door can be surfed..

When I think about will a board DW or not it's more about how well it does it.. not if it will or not because just like Kelly Slaters door any board can be downwinded.. 

It's still a fun thread and just not to be taken too seriously..

[burchas]

posting that vid of Kelly Slater surfing a door and claiming.. Yes.. a door can be surfed..

The big difference here is that it is NOT Connor Baxter posting the vids here, It's an average paddler...

[Eagle]

Between the AS Ace Sprint - SB has come up with their own interpretation of how these race boards rate for various performance characteristics.

For DW:
Ace = 10
AS = 9
Sprint = 6

For surf:
AS = 10
Ace = 8
Sprint = 6

From here just pick a board width that is appropriate for your weight skill and balance.  Interestingly both the Ace and Sprint designs only have 2 board widths for the 14.  The AS has a better width spread and is more of an all purpose race board comparatively.  But how the boards compare to other brands is another question.

For us - the SIC and JL brands with surf nose designs are better suited for rough ocean conditions and winds over 25 kts.  But for smaller conditions - the SB models do ok.  My choice for all purpose DW less than 25 kts - pretty much any board will suffice - but over 25 kts go SIC or JL.  The best board for me on any DW run over 15 kts is the JL M-14.  Very stable - fast enough - and can pretty much crush any bumps it encounters to very festive conditions.  For UL - the F16 or Bullet 17.4 are excellent choices.  For under 15 kts - the AS 23 is pretty fun and fast -especially as winds diminish.   

[Area 10]

Burchas - I'm mostly agreeing with you, even though you seem to think I'm not.

But speed isn't really an indication of anything much really. Some of our best courses are where the wind acts against the tide. You can be planing pretty much all the way and not get much over 6.5 mph average.

In fact here's a video that will illustrate the point. It is of a run near us that we use when the wind gets too strong to be safe in open sea. This day was gusting 40 knots. Yet the waters are reasonably enclosed and are very shallow (only about 5 or 6 ft deep in places, even a mile offshore). The bumps aren't big at all - but they were very fun. Average speeds are still only around 6 mph though despite the fact that we were surfing the bumps pretty much all the way, because the tide is mostly against us. The paddler is Charlie Grey, who is soon to be representing GB in Fiji at the ISA Worlds. He makes the conditions look much easier than they were. A few weeks before this, in similar conditions, a friend of mine took a flat water type raceboard. It was painful for him and me, who volunteered to wait for him: my GPS shows that I actually spent more time sitting waiting for him than I did paddling! I was on a Bullet V1. So he got himself a DW board (Naish Glide V2, like the one in the video paddled by the guy in the red top) and now he can keep up.



Btw, I didn't see much planing of the type I see in the video above going on in OS's video of the Red Paddle board. Did I miss something? That's all I am saying. Once I do see that then I'll be convinced that the board does indeed "downwind" (as I think of downwinding even if others think of it as something else).

[burchas]

Burchas - I'm mostly agreeing with you, even though you seem to think I'm not.

Fun Vid A10. I actually agree with you mostly as well. I guess I'm trying to voice our difference in perception based on my experiences.

And you didn't miss anything on OS vid since you can't see him taking off, but I'm siding with him on that claim as I know first hand this board is capable of taking off pretty easily (even with a mediocre downwinder like me at the helm).
He shot this vid quickly as a response to my challenge, and I'm sure we'll see a proper vid from him painting the board in a better light. and if not him, I'll try to do my best as I was the first to claim it

[808sup]

Hmmm...maybe the topic should be "will it downbreeze?"  Amusing to read anyway.

It makes me think if you had a topic about surfing called 'Will it surf' and posting that vid of Kelly Slater surfing a door and claiming.. Yes.. a door can be surfed..

When I think about will a board DW or not it's more about how well it does it.. not if it will or not because just like Kelly Slaters door any board can be downwinded.. 

It's still a fun thread and just not to be taken too seriously..

Agree with this. I also saw a video of a guy who took a 52"flatscreen  tv. Out and "surfed" it. Does this mean all flatscreens are surfable? Or does it mean all furniture is surf-able? I think not.
When I see DJ using an inflatable on his downwinders I will consider one. Until then I'll just read and chuckle to myself.

[PonoBill]

I think you're missing the point a little bit here. When off-shore claims a board can downwind, he backs it up with a well edited and all around good video that anyone can judge for them self if that answers their needs for their conditions.

As for conditions, it is very tricky thing to claim anything. I've never seen a video from you with all the relevant  on-screen metrics, showing your conditions so I can't speak to that, but lets put things in perspective by using Hood River, which is considered Downwind Mecca.

The top guys there are scratching the 8mph average for the run,
good experienced guys barely going over 6mph, and that's on a good day. So if I was never there (I was, and I did few runs their on an FX mind you) and I would go with your logic, I would say, "meh, that's a joke, I can do a 8mph average run right here near home and I only need a 15mph wind for it".

Umm, it's a river, and you run against a 3 to 5 mph current.  well, technically it's a lake (dammed on both ends), but the current remains 3 to 5mph.