What "meaningful action" would suggest to prevent more mass shooting in the US?

[PDLSFR]

@ PaddleAnything you make some good points but you are forgetting the big picture... the guns used in firemarm related crimes and horrific incidents such as Newton where committed with a stolen weapon by an unlicensed person. So your point about Insurance and Licensing is way off the mark since it would only impact individuals that give a s**t about laws and regulations...Criminals Do Not Care or even consider ramifications of their actions...we need to direct all firearm related "stronger gun control" measures on the use of these weapons by CRIMINALS, not impose more burdens on the everyday law abiding citizens and taxpayers.

As mentioned in this thread by many Zoners...Just remember people, take away the guns and nut jobs will find another way to kill people...like knives, dirty bombs, chemical weapons, and let us not forget things you never imagine like Planes?

[SUPflorida]

PaddleAnything  I considered your solution and it's outcome.

1) Create more bureaucracy with its associated costs. Look at the effectiveness and efficiency of any federal program to see how effective and efficient that such a program would operate.  Another tax payer funded program that requires borrowing more money from china. In your mind it may generate more money than it costs... we hear that exaggeration with every new government program....funny how it always cost more than the pie in the sky estimates that Washington feeds us.

2) Create another Cash cow for litigators,  burdening Americans with even move lawsuits. Using the fear of lawsuits to punish people trying to protect themselves... which would have no effect on the wealthy or poor but put another burden on the middle class who have something to lose but not enough resources to insure against, and defend themselves against in a lawsuit in a justified self defense scenario.

3) Send in to bankruptcy more American businesses, end more American jobs in the false hope that this is going to make us safe. Are you aware that Glock is an
Austrian company? So much for the utopian European standards.

So in closing if your plan were to be implemented...the litigators would profit, the bureaucrats would profit, the insurance companies would profit. The wealthy would be unaffected because they could absorb the cost of insurance or hire professional bodyguards. The poor would be unaffected because they would say "sue me" you cant get blood out of a rock. The criminals would laugh and celebrate that they can do more violence with less fear of resistance. The working people of America, the middle class would get screwed again.

The problem that you say you are trying to address with such action goes unresolved. There are still unstable people in the world who's horrific actions can not be predicted or contained. A criminal element that has no regard for any law, either ones on the books or those that could be created.
This action would do nothing but make honest citizens...the productive and hardworking people of this country less safe. To use manipulative laws, litigation, insurance expense and underhanded politics to strip away our second amendment rights is at its core evil.

With all due respect...If there are so many more "civilized" places to live in the world why not move to one of them?...The right to bear arms is a American core freedom. That way everyone could chose how much freedom they are willing to give up in exchange for the "illusion" of safety and security" of which there is no guarantee...anywhere.

[PDLSFR]

Thank You SUPflordia, well said !!!!!!

[Ichabod Spoonbill]

PaddleAnything, that was a good introduction. I'd like to add these things:

1) The Second Amendment grants the right to bear arms, so we're not going to take that away. Guns are a part of American culture, and that's not going away anytime soon. Let's please stop the "slippery slope" conversation about how any regulation of firearms is the first step to their getting banned. Basic limitations to the freedom of speech like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater or libel do not take away that basic right. The same applies to the right to bear arms.

2) The Second Amendment also includes the phrase "well regulated", which means that regulating firearms is also a part of that. Firearms are intrinsically dangerous things, that's one of the points of them, and the government needs to show an interest in regulating them as well as other potentially dangerous things (drugs, alcohol, automobiles, explosives), as well as making sure that these don't fall into the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

Freedom to own firearms comes with the responsibility of making sure society is still safe for everybody. This is not particular to guns. All freedoms come with responsibilities. Let's figure out what's appropriate and what's not.

3) On to specifics, we simply must close the "gun show loophole" where unlicensed sellers can sell firearms without a background check. Criminals and people who should not own guns are getting guns this way. Yes, it's more bureaucracy. but it will keep guns out of the hands of those who could not ordinarily buy one.

4) The American public needs to be better educated about firearms. Organizations like the NRA could spearhead some of this. This needs to be done in a non-political way. Many, many people in this country have an intrinsic fear of firearms, and a little education and exposure could go a long way. It would calm the debate from people who know nothing about them. It might (and probably will) also help prevent some accidents.

5) The laws prohibiting the CDC and ATF to do research into gun violence need to be stricken. We need better information about firearms and how firearms are affecting people. We as a country should not use this science as a weapon to bludgeon anybody, but as a guide to good public policy.

6) As a teacher, I can say that arming teachers and staff in a school is basically a stupid idea. An armed security guard is okay. We actually discussed this at a recent faculty meeting. The problem is that in a time when schools are slicing away programs because of budget cuts, the extra salary is difficult to justify. As a teacher I am not going to carry a sidearm. I'm there for my kids, which means I need to focus my energies on them 100%. I would never be able to do that while carrying a gun in a holster. It's too distracting. I don't even dress in a way that would conceal it, and if it wasn't concealed, the weapon would be incredibly distracting to the students. Besides, guns + kids in an open environment isn't a good combination.

That said, we need some ways to keep schools safer. That might include guards, but there needs to be other ideas too. Schools are big places and a guard cannot be everywhere. As well, a guard will not prevent all shootings. (There was an armed guard at Columbine.)


I know people will have objections to these. Please then suggest better ideas instead of just objections. Otherwise it's a waste of time. If you don't like bureaucracy or litigation, fine: suggest a better answer that moves the conversation forward. If you don't like my ideas, show me a better one.

I've basically been staying out of this conversation because very little is being accomplished. The same arguments are going back and forth, and it's accomplishing nothing. In order to come up with answers both sides need to bend, adjust, and compromise, not dig in. What's going on here is a microcosm for the country -- lots of points to be made on both sides but no real solutions. We need to be better than that. The families of twenty children who deserve that.

[JeanG]

As a teacher, I can say that arming teachers and staff in a school is basically a stupid idea. An armed security guard is okay. We actually discussed this at a recent faculty meeting. The problem is that in a time when schools are slicing away programs because of budget cuts, the extra salary is difficult to justify. As a teacher I am not going to carry a sidearm. I'm there for my kids, which means I need to focus my energies on them 100%. I would never be able to do that while carrying a gun in a holster. It's too distracting. I don't even dress in a way that would conceal it, and if it wasn't concealed, the weapon would be incredibly distracting to the students.

Have you ever worn an ankle holster? It is 100% invisible to everyone else, and you wouldn't notice wearing it in any way.

Even when wearing skinny jeans, an ankle holster is completely invisible.

In my opinion, school staff who have weapons should be unknown even to other staff (except the Principal). This avoids stigma and distraction.

A firearm should never be visible in a school unless worn by an uniformed officer. It should always be concealed completely.

[JeanG]

I know people will have objections to these. Please then suggest better ideas instead of just objections. Otherwise it's a waste of time. If you don't like bureaucracy or litigation, fine: suggest a better answer that moves the conversation forward. If you don't like my ideas, show me a better one.

What is ironic is that the much maligned NRA is one of the few organizations to promote a policy which would have an immediate dramatic impact to make all schools in the US safer.

English teacher Kevin Leatherbarrow holds a license to carry a concealed weapon and doesn't see anything wrong with arming teachers in the aftermath of the deadly Connecticut school shooting.

Gun-rights advocates in Utah agree and are offering up six hours of training Thursday in handling concealed weapons for 200 Utah teachers in the latest effort to arm teachers to confront school assailants.

In Ohio, a firearms group said it was launching a test program in tactical firearms training for 24 teachers. The Arizona attorney general is proposing a change to state law to allow an educator in each school to carry a gun.

The NRA's recommended policy will make schools safer every single time that such action occurs.

[Ichabod Spoonbill]

I think we can do better than that.

[JeanG]

I think we can do better than that.

Close gun show loophole? I'm in favor of this. But it won't protect anyone.

More firearm education? I'm in favor of this. But it won't protect anyone.

CDC & ATF research? Won't protect anyone.

Allowing teachers to carry concealed weapons at school? Obviously will protect a lot of people.

[Ichabod Spoonbill]

JeanG, that's not going to work with most people, especially teachers.

Can we come up with solutions that don't require more guns?

[H2Oman]

Can we come up with solutions that don't require more guns?

Yes, but gun fanatics won't go for it.

There is no "solution", but there's room for improvements.

[TN_SUP]

I would not send my child to a school where the teachers had guns. There will be accidental shootings. Thank goodness for private schools that won't follow the armed teacher madness.

[JeanG]

Can we come up with solutions that don't require more guns?

Yes, but gun fanatics won't go for it.

Such as?

[tstansbury]

So you would not send your kids to the private school the Obama girls go to because of the armed gaurds

[Ichabod Spoonbill]

JeanG, I'm not trying to argue with you. I think we just need to get beyond the stalemate to real solutions. Nothing I suggested will "solve" the problem -- I know that -- but we need to respond in a way so we reduce the chances of this happening.

I'm not trying to make gun owners into scapegoats or bad guys, but since we are a nation where people own guns, we need to come up with answers to the horrible violence that we're seeing with guns. Do you have any ideas?

[Weasels wake]

I wouldn't burden teachers with training and arming them, they didn't sign up for that.
As I wouldn't burden commercial pilots with the same thing for the same reason.  But we have air marshals, non-uniformed air marshals, with a concealed weapon, it works.
Use the airlines (in air) as a model.
Put non-uniformed security in schools, just knowing there might be one there somewhere, will make a school shooter think twice.  
Kind of a school marshal if you will, their schedules can be irregular, and the personal can be rotated among the schools, nothing predictable, nothing scary.