My message to Mr Naish.

[DavidJohn]

Sounds like a job for your local shaper.

...there are no local shapers (to me) that are capable.. or even interested in making a board for me this size.. Most shaping rooms can't fit a board this big..

I suppose the discussion would almost be moot if SIC boards were readily available here...but DC's done several shapes in the 15-16-17' range, either special customs for big boys or normal sizers wanting open water boards...maybe get in his ear?

Yes.. If DC was nearby I'd be knocking on his door.. Shame he's so far away.. btw I've heard that Dale is no longer doing custom orders.

DJ

[Area 10]

DJ, you have hit the nail on the head. Especially when it comes to downwinding.

If I met Mr Naish I would like to ask him what the tidal range is on Maui.
Being a superlative watersportsman, he would no doubt know that it is something like 2 or 3 feet (e.g. Maui). In other words, next to nothing.

Then I would ask him what the tidal range in the UK is. He'd probably know that too, because he has been here. It is hugely larger than in Hawaii. There are parts of the UK which have a tidal range of almost 30ft. (The world's largest tidal range reputedly is in Eastern Canada and is not far off 40 feet.) It is not uncommon in the UK, as with many other places in Europe for there to be up to a mile or so of exposed beach at low tide, which disappears entirely at high tide.  In many places in the world the only way that would happen was if there was a tsunami on the way...

So in other words, there is a huge amount of water moving around on a daily basis. Local tidal currents where I live can be up to 6 or 7 knots on Springs.

Very much linked to this is the near-shore depth of the water in many places like in Europe. It is MUCH shallower than in some places (like Hawaii of course).

We also get a fair bit of wind compared with some places in the world.  Where I live, we rarely get over 50 knots, but winds in the 20-30 knot range are very common indeed, almost daily during some parts of the year. Other UK spots are far windier.

Then there are the local geographic features. The place where SUP is most popular in the UK is probably the South coast. This coastline is a body of water which substantially consists of a channel of about 20-30 miles wide between the UK and France. It is one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world. The tide pretty much rushes in at one end, and out the other, and the prevailing winds work against the incoming tide for much of the coastline. Local features cause a huge number of rebounds and refractions, and there are several tidal gates along the coast.

OK, so what does this mean?

Well, you've got huge tidal flows rushing in or out over shallow shelves, and in downwind conditions these are being affected by strong winds. There are also lots of local refraction and rebound effects churning things up even more. This can create very exciting downwind conditions. But what it tends NOT to do is create long period regular swells. They tend to be short period, peaky, and all over the place, going left, right, sometimes both at the same time, and often you can feel the currents tugging on your fin just beneath the surface.

So what is the right board for downwinding in these conditions for most people? Is it a pencil that is 27.5" or less wide. No. Is it something with a small, easily deflected rudder and a large surface area (especially in the nose) for windage as you get bounced this way and that by the bumps? Err...what do you think?

It is a great shame, because the three biggest SUP players by far in the UK are Starboard, Naish and Surftech. But none of them makes a planing nose downwind/open ocean board that is over 28" wide (Surftech, the largest surfboard manufacturer in the world doesn't really even have ONE downwind-oriented board). 28" is really the absolute minimum unless you are sponsored rider level - less is simply too tippy in these conditions for the vast majority of people. Really, most people will need an open ocean board that is AT LEAST 29" wide at 14 feet (and probably better to be 30"), and stable with it, to be happy and safe. The new boards by Coreban (Dart) and Walk on Water (GSR) (and PSH) are therefore very welcome. It seems daft that the bigger players are the very ones who are currently the weakest at providing the boards that would appeal most to the broadest range of people.

Oh, and whilst I'm at it, Mr Naish, can we please have a flat water version of the Naish 17 Glide? DON'T make it any narrower. I repeat: DO NOT MAKE IT NARROWER.  Just pretty much reduce the rocker, tinker with the nose just a little, give it a fixed fin option, and a more weed-friendly rudder (ESSENTIAL), and that will do just fine. Why should Starboard have the only production unlimited flat water race board?

Oh yeah, and bring back something like the old Glide 12, like balance_fit says. I recently got a secondhand carbon one. Windsurfable, and a lovely pocket downwinder for beginners who can't, or don't want to, handle a big board.  Very light. Lots of fun, even surfs OK for what it is – much more adaptable and useable than any of the current 12-6 Naishes...and 29.75" wide...

To illustrate my point, who can resist this video of DJ windsurfing his Naish Glide 12 way back in 2010:



Back in the days when SUP boards were for having fun... I miss those days...

[bts]

What production board comes closest to what you are preposing?

I might enjoy downwinding more with a more stable ride, but I'm not really interested enough to drop 2.5-3k on a used f16 v2 to find out.

Tried the JL 14, thought it was OK but not great when things got sloppy.  Someday maybe the PSH 14 will be available around here for a test ride...but not today.

[DavidJohn]

DJ, you have hit the nail on the head. Especially when it comes to downwinding.

If I met Mr Naish I would like to ask him what the tidal range is on Maui.
Being a superlative watersportsman, he would no doubt know that it is something like 2 or 3 feet (e.g. Maui). In other words, next to nothing.

Then I would ask him what the tidal range in the UK is. He'd probably know that too, because he has been here. It is hugely larger than in Hawaii. There are parts of the UK which have a tidal range of almost 30ft. (The world's largest tidal range reputedly is in Eastern Canada and is not far off 40 feet.) It is not uncommon in the UK, as with many other places in Europe for there to be up to a mile or so of exposed beach at low tide, which disappears entirely at high tide.  In many places in the world the only way that would happen was if there was a tsunami on the way...

So in other words, there is a huge amount of water moving around on a daily basis. Local tidal currents where I live can be up to 6 or 7 knots on Springs.

Very much linked to this is the near-shore depth of the water in many places like in Europe. It is MUCH shallower than in some places (like Hawaii of course).

We also get a fair bit of wind compared with some places in the world.  Where I live, we rarely get over 50 knots, but winds in the 20-30 knot range are very common indeed, almost daily during some parts of the year. Other UK spots are far windier.

Then there are the local geographic features. The place where SUP is most popular in the UK is probably the South coast. This coastline is a body of water which substantially consists of a channel of about 20-30 miles wide between the UK and France. It is one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world. The tide pretty much rushes in at one end, and out the other, and the prevailing winds work against the incoming tide for much of the coastline. Local features cause a huge number of rebounds and refractions, and there are several tidal gates along the coast.

OK, so what does this mean?

Well, you've got huge tidal flows rushing in or out over shallow shelves, and in downwind conditions these are being affected by strong winds. There are also lots of local refraction and rebound effects churning things up even more. This can create very exciting downwind conditions. But what it tends NOT to do is create long period regular swells. They tend to be short period, peaky, and all over the place, going left, right, sometimes both at the same time, and often you can feel the currents tugging on your fin just beneath the surface.

So what is the right board for downwinding in these conditions for most people? Is it a pencil that is 27.5" or less wide. No. Is it something with a small, easily deflected rudder and a large surface area (especially in the nose) for windage as you get bounced this way and that by the bumps? Err...what do you think?

It is a great shame, because the three biggest SUP players by far in the UK are Starboard, Naish and Surftech. But none of them makes a planing nose downwind/open ocean board that is over 28" wide (Surftech, the largest surfboard manufacturer in the world doesn't really even have ONE downwind-oriented board). 28" is really the absolute minimum unless you are sponsored rider level - less is simply too tippy in these conditions for the vast majority of people. Really, most people will need an open ocean board that is AT LEAST 29" wide at 14 feet (and probably better to be 30"), and stable with it, to be happy and safe. The new boards by Coreban (Dart) and Walk on Water (GSR) (and PSH) are therefore very welcome. It seems daft that the bigger players are the very ones who are currently the weakest at providing the boards that would appeal most to the broadest range of people.

Oh, and whilst I'm at it, Mr Naish, can we please have a flat water version of the Naish 17 Glide? DON'T make it any narrower. I repeat: DO NOT MAKE IT NARROWER.  Just pretty much reduce the rocker, tinker with the nose just a little, give it a fixed fin option, and a more weed-friendly rudder (ESSENTIAL), and that will do just fine. Why should Starboard have the only production unlimited flat water race board?

Oh yeah, and bring back something like the old Glide 12, like balance_fit says. I recently got a secondhand carbon one. Windsurfable, and a lovely pocket downwinder for beginners who can't, or don't want to, handle a big board.  Very light. Lots of fun, even surfs OK for what it is – much more adaptable and useable than any of the current 12-6 Naishes...and 29.75" wide...

To illustrate my point, who can resist this video of DJ windsurfing his Naish Glide 12 way back in 2010:



Back in the days when SUP boards were for having fun... I miss those days...

Thanks.. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks this.. I talked to the Aussie Naish guys the other day (before this post) and said that what we really need is a bigger 14' Glide and he said 'bigger?" like I was the odd one out and every one else is saying smaller.. Just because wave boards are getting smaller and smaller (and harder the balance on) that doesn't mean it's the same for DW and race boards.. It's funny how when I talked with Robby Naish a few years ago he said even back then that the sport will be 80% flat water and 20% surf and that they should not be focusing so much on the surfing boards and more on the flat water and DW/race boards and yet they continue to make more and more wave boards to fill every gap in board sizes yet they leave us with a huge gap between the 14' Glide and the 17' Javelin.. Just because these racing classes have been forced apon us.. even if we don't race.. If they forced board sizes on the surfing world there'd be an uproar.. Anyway back then when I was talking to Robby he told me that coming soon was a 17' DW board and a 18' flat water race board.. Not just on the drawing board but coming soon.. Looks like they caned it.. He told me about the 10' Mana way before it came out and was very open about all the new stuff.. I asked about keeping this to myself and he insisted no.. Tell anyone.. and was very open about it and yet you talk to dealers and any new stuff is all hush hush even if they know.. Anyway.. Thanks for posting my 12' Glide vid.. I'm planing to do another soon on maybe the new 10'6".5 and 10'10" Nalu.. Both windsurf'able .. It's a shame they dropped the 12' Glide.. That would have been a good one to have as a windsurfsup.. and they could have even put foot strap holes in it.. Oh well.

DJ

[DavidJohn]

What production board comes closest to what you are preposing?

I might enjoy downwinding more with a more stable ride, but I'm not really interested enough to drop 2.5-3k on a used f16 v2 to find out.

That's my point.. There's nothing.. It's either 14' or open class.. Nothing in between.. and I agree.. The new F16 v2's are very expensive for the average guy.

Mark Raaphorst (SIC) must be all smiles now because the big brands don't really give him any competition.. Except for the 14' class.

DJ

[Area 10]

bts - Downwinding on a board that is not suited to you or the conditions can be one of the most dispririting and frustrating experiences you will ever have, especially if you are accompanied by people who ARE on the right board! You will want to set fire to your board and scream in frustration. But if you do the same run on a stable and forgiving board it is a sublime experience - I think its the best you can get on a SUP.

The JL M-14 is great for most people in small or moderate downwind conditions. In big choppy conditions it is very fast, but you have to be on your game, and I wouldn't take a beginner out on it in those conditions (e.g. over 25 knots and waist-high+ bumps). It's a DW board for those who already have a bit of DW experience and are looking to milk as much pace as they can, or for people who are starting out but restricting themselves to fairly modest conditions.

The best all-round DW board that I have tried, and will cope with just about anything, is the Angulo Shaka. That is the board I put people on who I am taking out to experience DW for the first time, and its the one I wish I was on when we get out there and find it is hell choppy.

The obvious downside to the Angulo is its weight. It is something like 37lbs (AST, there is also a slightly lighter more expensive production version). This aids the stability, but it is a beast to carry and load, and in small or moderate conditions the weight can make it harder to accelarate onto the more marginal bumps. But this is actually a fairly minor criticism: it is a hugely forgiving board, and one that is under-rated in my opinion. It is surprisingly fast, even in the flat. It has no hard edges anywhere so tends to slip through the water. It even surfs well for such a large board. It makes a good expedition/fishing board too.

Ed Angulo makes custom versions that are about half the weight....I'm thinking a 15ft x 29" version would be a weapon for most people in most conditions, and not so long that it would be difficult to control. But, anyway...back to production models: for the moment, the Angulo is just about the ONLY super-stable DW production model of which I know that has been available for some time, so is tried and trusted. No-one has a bad word to say about it. The new Walk on Water and Coreban 14s seem to have a similar concept - the WoW looks in the photos a bit like a fat version of the M-14. But neither are available in the UK right now - there are supply issues. The Angulo is easily available in Europe from Germany, and the M-14 is easily available from France. If you live in Europe, PM me if you want contact details for retailers. I have no connection to them, I'm just a happy customer.

I think that Naish should make a wider version of the old 14 Glide, but with reduced nose rocker, and maybe slightly reconsidered rails. Starboard should make a (much) wider and updated version of the Point (I don't want a big volume nose like their current designs that go boof!). Surftech need to get their act together - it's ridiculous that they don't have a planing nose 14fter (or larger) given the huge range of other SUPS they have, some of which are specialist to the point of obscurity. I understand that there is a rush to produce toys for the inland paddlers because this is a huge market. But we ocean types are still here and the inland boards are generally no good for what we like to do.

DJ - keep saying what you are saying mate - you are definitely NOT alone.

[bts]

Thanks for the offer Area10, but I'm on the other half of the globe.

Ironic that you can find an Angulo Maui downwind board in Europe, but I can't find one on Oahu

[South3rnSUP]

12-6 PSH Ocean Hull Paddler. Achieves these requirements for me...

[upwinder]

DJ, you have hit the nail on the head. Especially when it comes to downwinding.

... in downwind conditions these are being affected by strong winds. There are also lots of local refraction and rebound effects churning things up even more. This can create very exciting downwind conditions. But what it tends NOT to do is create long period regular swells. They tend to be short period, peaky, and all over the place, going left, right, sometimes both at the same time, and often you can feel the currents tugging on your fin just beneath the surface.

Sounds like our local waters here in Melb.

I don't mind sounding like a fanboy, my Walk-on-Water GSR 14  at 14' x 29" x 6", 298 Litres, has been a game changer for me (tall, fat, balance -challenged with no surfing background). Tried a few 14 footers and even have a 17' Glide that I put a big, fixed fin into. The WoW turned DW for me from a long learning curve that I was gritting my teeth and persisting with to FUN, so sweet to be in control of my board rather than the other way around.

Here's a link for those not familiar:
http://breeze.weatherwise.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/Walk-on-Water-14-126-Down-winders/?SearchTerms=walk,on,water

Not saying it's the ne plus ultra but it illustrates the point about a bloody good formula...decent but not excessive nose rocker to fit in short-period swell, most of the volume through the middle, generous single-through-to-double-concave-to-vee underneath for stability and easy planing and chined rails for good manners in erratic side slop. I haven't put the clock on it yet in flat water but it sure doesn't feel like a slug in the flat either, especially if I step forward and stick the nose in a bit.

I keep hearing paddle gurus saying "it ain't fast if you can't stand on it" or "it ain't fast if you're in the water" or words to that effect, so why aren't they making boards that the other 99% of us can stand on?

[PonoBill]

Very interesting comments. DJ's comments about Robbie's openness compared to his company's secrecy ring very true--The boss often doesn't worry much about secrecy. My employee's would have little heart attacks when I talked to reporters or gave talks at ad industry events because I'd give away the "secrets" of our newest stuff. I never cared that much about competitors copying us--I considered that good stimulation for forcing us to innovate. "If they're copying us they'll always be behind". But employees don't have the latitude of the boss, and get in trouble if they reveal things they aren't authorized to--so they worry more, with good reason.

It's early days in the hull shapes of flatwater boards, and right now everyone is marching in the same direction. If they go too far in the skinny raceboard direction dictated by a set of flawed and arbitrary size limits, they'll kill the growth of the sport, just as ultra-performance windsurfing gear killed windsurfing. It all became too difficult, too specialized, and too expensive.

We all have some idea of what a entry level downwind/flatwater board should be. A 12'6" Starboard would be fine, but your friends will always be disappearing over the horizon, and that gets old fast. A longer board is more stable at narrower widths if it has some rocker and the right rail and nose shape. A 14 is really not a big enough jump to be worth the cost and effort unless the design is all out race. Add enough rocker and soft rails to make it behave in chop and swell and 14' turns into 12' just like the old 14' Glide. 16' is kind of a magic length if the rocker is right. Fits into swells, goes fast, and with something like the F16 V2 width, rail and hull shape it turns somewhat from the rails as well as the tail.

Rudders are awesome in many conditions but a PIA in others. So you want an easily removed (and optional cost) rudder and a fin box behind it. If I were designing it, the rudder tube would pass through the front of the fin box. 99% of the time the rudder is pointing straight. If it's close enough to the finbox when you hit something and bend the soft stainless shaft the fin trailing edge will drop into the finbox instead of punching through the bottom of the board.

The fin lets you tune the board. Bodacious big for stability when you need it, smaller when you don't. Weedless or not, raked to help with kick turns or not. I had to smile when someone said that a fin couldn't add stability. Clearly they never tried a big fin on a tippy board. The monster fin Jimmy put on the original JL 11er was the secret to it's success with beginners.

I suspect we'll get the boards we ask for--eventually. My trend charts show that most of the growth in SUP is flatwater. I'd guess it's at least 80 percent now. Flatwater leads straight to downwinding, not to surfing.

[Area 10]

Yep, PB, fins can make a huge difference to stability in chop. The one that came with the Jimmy Lewis 11 fter was still small compared with the JL No. 4 fin, which is a 13.5" monster, sadly not being made any more. Nothing I've found beats that, and it is great for really messy conditions. The new Futures Triangle Cutaway in large also adds some stability, although the rake doesn't seem to suit as many of my boards for DW - after all I think it is meant more for distance tracking. Really, for very choppy, heavy conditions on a fairly narrow but long board, most people are much happier and faster with a fin of at least 60 sq inches in area. That's really HUGE, and is much bigger than most on sale at the moment... even the new Futures Laird 9" (about 50 sq ins I think) can seem pretty small in the conditions we often DW in, although I find it excellent in smaller or more organised, long period, stuff.

I listen to the reps saying things like "when you are experienced, you can use a smaller fin", holding up something of about 30 sq ins in area or something and smile to myself. Well, you can, maybe in Hawaii, where swells are quite organised. But round here with a small fin you are going to spend a lot of time with your tail slithering around out of control unless your surname is e.g. Lenny or Baxter. And that means you will be holding your friends on more stable and secure board/fin combinations up.

I sometimes wonder if many of the reps that give advice on these matters actually ever go out in proper DW conditions (i.e. not just "flat water paddling with the wind on your back"), because some things they say just don't accord with what I or my friends find out for ourselves. An interesting case in point are those the long dagger-like fins that are sold as "downwind" fins. Has anyone ever found any board/condition combination where one of those was the best choice they could find? The manufacturers need to give up that myth and start working on things that actually work for us downwind. SUPs are not windsurfers.

Sorry, I went off on another rant there. Exorcising some demons...I need to get out and do a DW run to clear my head!

[Muskoka SUP]

Talk about good timing for a thread.....kindof.....

I just sold my Coast Runner to a friend...and now I have to decide on which board is to replace it.  As much as I'd like a Coreban Dart 14, or even better, a WoW Gsr 14, sadly they aren't available here in Canada. (Yet?).  I have to choose between a Naish Glide 14 (2012) and a J.L. M-14.

Area10,  your praise of the M-14 is driving me in the direction of Rogue Wave (Jimmy Lewis distributor here ) down the road for a test paddle.  It has to be pretty amazing, because it's about $600 more than an AST Glide!.  Hopefully, even though the wind doesn't blow around here until the fall, there will be lots of chop.  That's what I like about the CR, it's ability to handle cross chop and waves from every direction.  What I don't like is it's well documented tendency to "boof" when it pokes....I still think it might be a user issue, as in I'm too heavy....   It might be a better downwinder for a lighter paddler.  

Again, I wish I had more board choices....like some 15 or 16 foot boards.....

Thanks for all the really timely discussion everyone.  

David S.

[balance_fit]

A bit of meditation on this thread yields some thoughts in need of more meditation and the thing goes on...

Downwind, as i see it, is any paddle session comprised of two elements: first, wind and then swell. Wind speed and direction as primary concerns, then, swell relation to wind direction,  height, direction in relation to paddler´s direction, period, state of confusion/organization, currents with, against or across it ...and more, all are factors that to some extent affect the ride.

Surfing. Taking swell and placing it on a primary perspective, bringing it closer to shore so it becomes a wave and adding other factors such as steepness or mushiness of the wave, peeling direction, shape, etc. then, wind presence of lack of, direction, strength, etc, are also factors that affect the ride.

Racing. Categories. Flat bottom, 12´6" or 14´or unlimited. What else? Yes, interaction with some of the above depending on the race course and venue.

Now, who decides which race board for a particular event? Categories, then, aside from price, some design aspects chosen by the paddler to optimize for his or her abilities in relation to the conditions faced more often.

For example, BOP. We all know the board size. Maybe a lucky paddler has a narrower and wider board depending on conditions. That´s it ! Go, compete. Goal is placing high on the category, or surviving. Have fun in the process.

Let´s go surfing. Yeah! Check the conditions, choose the board for the particular break and have fun.
Downwind. Oh yeah ! Again, check the conditions, choose your board and have fun.

Check: Not that there wouldn´t be events for downwind or surfing. But, the boards for either of these can be used to have fun regardless of the existence of a race.

Raceboards, with few exceptions, (say, hybrids for touring) are for racing and training. One wouldn´t expect to have much fun on a raceboard either surfing or downwinding.

So, i want to go downwinding. And i have only access to production boards of said brands. I check the lineups and i see many surfing boards, designed to what it seems, every different set of conditions on each break world wide.  Different lengths, widths, fin layups, rocker lines, etc.
Also, i see many raceboards, some narrow, some wider, all in between two known lengths.
Many choices to paddlers on those disciplines, great for them and the sport !

But, i want to go downwind ! Where´s my choices?
Is downwinding some obscure, self punishing, dark fraternity, sub culture of the sport?
I don´t think so.
I´m grabbing my all around sup to go dw now..

May all be well

[bts]

12-6 PSH Ocean Hull Paddler. Achieves these requirements for me...

I've seen a lot of videos of the 12-6 and 14 surfing, but are they user friendly (stable) downwind boards that catch swell easily?

[pdxmike]

DJ--great thoughts.  I've always admired the boards that are in between 14' and 17'.  Clearly racing categories are shaping the board lengths--if you're in "unlimited" territory as soon as you're over 14', any board shorter than 17' wouldn't typically make sense for racing.  That, and probably a belief that if you can transport and store a board over 14', you can do it with a 17' or 18' board as easily as a 15' or 16'--certainly not always true.

People do seem to love their 15'-16' boards like the Starboard K-15 and the SICs.  I would also love to see more choices--esp. affordable ones--in that range.  Maybe people will start questioning the 14' limit the way they have the 12-6 limit. 

I also could even see how creating some nice 15'-16' downwind boards could lead to people racing them--not ideal, but why not for the guy who only occasionally races?  That would be an ironic development--manufacturers deciding to ignore what's best for racing and coming out with 15' or 16' boards, and having that lead to people racing those occasionally, and maybe that even leading to coming out with some more race-specific unlimited boards that are less than 17' long.   

I can see why there are no 13' or 13'-6" boards--not much of a gap between 12-6 and 14'--but the hole between 14' and 17' really is getting obvious.