Rudder system or no rudder system on unlimited SUP

[twinrigskier]

Just wanted some other people incite on what they think about the two.

[AirJunky]

First off, I have no experience with a SUP with a rudder.

But a few times when I was out paddling in a cross wind, usually about the 10,000th stroke on the up wind side, I wondered if a rudder would allow me to make a rudder adjustment, and then paddle on both sides.

And does it effect speed at all? Seems like it would be about as much as a little extra weight on the SUP does, ie; around 10%?

[DavidJohn]

Just wanted some other people incite on what they think about the two.

IMO.. If it's a flat water board for glassy conditions I'd say no rudder.

If it's for down-winders, distance paddling and windy conditions I'd say yes for the rudder.

DJ

[refthimos]

As a relative newcomer to the question, I will have to apply experience in another discipline (sea kayaking) to offer some thoughts, but think they are nonetheless relevant, especially because race SUP hull design actually has some similarities to that of kayaks.

On a kayak, there is a phenomenon called "weathercocking" where the bow of the boat gets pushed by the wind, so that the kayak wants to steer away from the direction of the prevailing wind.  Hull design can contribute to how much a particular kayak is susceptible to weathercocking, but as you might imagine, the primary determinant of the severity of this effect if the kayak's bow profile in the water; the larger the profile, the more wind caught, the more the bow gets pushed by the wind.

I once tried paddling a 14'5" kayak in decent wind and current and found it pretty hard to keep straight without altering my normal kayak stroke (i.e. paddling repeatedly on one side or the other).

Both of my current kayaks (15'1" single and 16'5" tandem) have rudders and I would not go out in the ocean without them.  With the rudder, I can paddle in strong wind and current, maintain a straight line, all while maintaining a normal, balanced kayak stroke.

I started SUP on a 11'6" planing nose "surfboard" and soon moved to a 14' displacement nose "raceboard."  The race board not only has more profile because of its displacement design, but the longer board increases the profile's surface area forward of the balance point on the board.  So there are two things increasing weathercocking over my shorter, lower profile "surf-style" SUP.

Just yesterday morning, I was on the 14' board and in some decent wind.  I didn't count the number of strokes on each side, but I found myself paddling 2x to 3x as much on the windward side as much as the leeward side.  From my kayak experience, a rudder would have allowed me to maintain an even number of strokes on each side (albeitly with some increase in drag).  From a purely "feel" perspective, my guess is that the ability to maintain an even number of strokes would more than offset the increased drag from the rudder, resulting in a faster time over a given distance when in moderate to strong wins.

Mind you, this is just on a 14' SUP, and one that does not (I think) feature an larger-than-average side profile.  Add 4' of hull as you move up to an unlimited board, and the weathercocking will only increase, with all that extra surface area just waiting to be pushed around by the wind.  I imagine this is why every unlimited board I see has a rudder - my guess is that they would be virtually useless without the rudder in any kind of significant wind.

I think I count myself in the camp of "faster is better" so am already looking at picking up an unlimited board and can't imagine it won't have a rudder.

[twinrigskier]

Thats what i want to know.  Why have a rudder for the windy,choppy, downwind conditions? Is it just for the sure reason that you dont have to paddle 1000 times on one side in a windy or choppy situation, or is there any more advantages you can get out of it?

[twinrigskier]

Hey refthimos, check out socalracing's 18'6" Bark with rudder system for sale. For that price, im sure it wont stay for sale for long. I wish i had the money right now for it.

[refthimos]

Yeah I think that the primary benefit is avoiding the "paddle on the same side 1000x" time phenomenon...  Also (guessing from experience on the kayak), it would help you turn the SUP with a smaller turning radius.  if you haven't yet gotten comfortable with the step back, weight the tail pivot turn (I keep telling myself I need to practice that, but with the cold water here in LA, I kinda like staying dry when I am out on a paddle - haha).

Thanks for the heads-up on the 18.6' Bark... thought it was sold, might have to check it out...

[kwhilden]

Did someone say the word "weathercocking" on a SUP forum? Dude, we don't allow the use of kayak terms around here. It's not cool enough for us. ;-p

All kidding aside, I used to do a lot of sea kayak guiding and instruction, wrote articles for Sea Kayaker mag and was a frequent reviewer for sea kayaks. I think it's super cool that some SUP companies are starting to blend SUP design with sea kayak design. There are a lot excellent design ideas in the sea kayak realm.

Regarding weathercocking... it's technically caused by the *stern* of the kayak getting pushed by wind, while the bow is held in place by water pressure. Thus the paddler notices an apparent turning of the bow into the wind. This is counteracted by having a skeg or a rudder at the stern of the kayak, or by designing a really good sea kayak that does not weathercock even without a skeg or rudder (e.g. Mariner, Pygmy).

I haven't noticed weather cocking so much in SUP because nearly every SUP has a large skeg right at the stern preventing it. Although various factors could conspire to cause weathercocking (e.g. skeg too small), I would generally suspect a surfboard-style SUP to 'leecock' because the flat bow entry would get pushed downwind while the skeg held the stern in place.

[twinrigskier]

Thank you very much for the info everybody. From what it seems like, its basically there from keeping you having to paddle a lot on one side and very little on the other in windy/choppy conditions. As for refthimos, that beautiful 18'6" Bark is still for sale under classifieds, but for pictures, i found them under craigslist.com  in the orange county, ca section. "bark paddle board".

[dalidali]

Question:

Rudderless and unlimited SUPs with rudder system compete in the same "unlimited" category or belond to different categories?
Thanks
M

[dalidali]

Rudderless unlimiteds and ones with rudder belong to the same or to different categories when racing?
Thanks
M

[PonoBill]

Well, there's a little more. Look at any of the Maliko runs and you'll see folks with their feet on the rudders as much as possible. Helps you get to the trough you want to slip through, or into the swell you want to catch, and then helps you turn to run along the face and accelerate. Some folks use them constantly, some don't.

Then there's other runs. When the wind is a little offshore, or maybe a lot offshore, a rudder lets you go where you want to go. The southside runs on Maui are a good example. Lots of times you're a couple miles from shore and the wind is blowing 25 knots aiming for Tahiti. If you're really good--like Jeremy or Larry or Chan, you don't need a rudder to get in. If you're like me you'll be thanking Mark Raaphorst with every paddle stroke.

Then there's racing. Being able to pick your side to paddle on is important, and if it's a sprint, getting around buoys is a big deal.

bottom line is that some boards don't need them even when they're 18 feet long, and some do. My F18 planing hull doesn't really need one, though it's nice to have one, but I can turn it on the rail. My F18 displacement board reacts to rail pressure like a slot machine--cherries or lemons. No idea what it's gonna do this time. If you want to turn that thing without a rudder you nave to stand on the tail and hoik the nose around. That said, on the steep, short period swells in the columbia you do exactly that--rarely get to the rudder on a big wind day.

So it's horses for courses once again. You can get used to anything.

[LaPerouseBay]

Thats what i want to know.  Why have a rudder for the windy,choppy, downwind conditions? Is it just for the sure reason that you dont have to paddle 1000 times on one side in a windy or choppy situation, or is there any more advantages you can get out of it?

Good question.  Here on Maui, we are blessed with good wind. The chop and windswell is usually driving us down the line. 

Rudders are primarily used to help redirect the board into the next glide.

Large, medium and small waves pass under us in the same general direction.  We try to build speed by linking glides.  The little ones travel slowest, so we get on them first.  Then the mediums and onto the big ones. 

In my opinion, rudders are best used - sparingly - on the little waves.  Once up to speed, redirecting the board to another glide is more efficient (and far more rewarding) by weighting a rail.  If fatigue sets in, rudders can help redirect the board without having to shift your weight to set the rail...

As you can imagine, there is much more to the story.  Sometimes it's so good here you can scoot the pedal back for the "little waves".  Woo Hoo!


   
               

[LaPerouseBay]

Rudderless unlimiteds and ones with rudder belong to the same or to different categories when racing?
Thanks
M

Same class here in HI.

Very few rudderless boards here over 16'.   

[twinrigskier]

You can have either a rudder system or not in the unlimited class. Anything over 14' is considered unlimited no matter the rudder.