Forum Marketing

[Admin]

Hi guys,

This is a great time for the sport and a really positive time for this forum.  These posts are always a bit of a downer, and we kind of dread making them. We hope that we can just have an honest discussion about this and help move towards a clearer understanding of what works for us and what we think works best in general for keeping this an honest and valuable site.

We understand that a forum is a powerful marketing tool.  It is a well known fact that information that is perceived as word of mouth is valued very highly in terms of persuasion.  For that reason, "astroturfing" is a reality on the web and unfortunately, it creeps in here as well.  The financial motivations to do it are strong, but all the same, it ruins forums and drains all real value from the web.  

Frankly speaking, we have a few posts here recently that smell pretty bad.  Many of you have commented to us on this and we thank you for your input.  As with all forums we have members that try to create multiple accounts, some of those go away, we get rid of others...and then some come back.

We have set up a place for brands to post about themselves, but "forum bowling" (you set 'em up, I'll knock 'em down) on other parts of the forum persists.  Q: Hey, does anyone have any experience with XYZ brand?  A: Why it just so happens that I do.  Sure it is obvious to some, but for newcomers it is confusing and misleading and we don't feel good about having it here.  This has been a recent cause of many complaints.

On the other side we value the contributions that many shapers, shop owners and team riders make here.  Some are very clear, answer real questions and provide some of the most valuable stuff that we all read here.

So, how do we keep the word of mouth info here real words from real mouths?  Do we need a 50 post minimum before new users can post on brands? How about some of the trickier issues?  Happy to hear your opinions.

 

[H2Oman]

I've been running forums for a few years.  Personally, I let things take care of themselves.  The only moderation I've tried to enforce has been to require a "real first name" and "location" on registration and no users under 16.  People still can set up ghost accounts, but it seems to have cut down on a lot of the nonsense.  When it comes to posts, I have a few words censored so they will be replaced with something that will not be offensive to others, ie. gay to happy, etc.   

Adding moderators, getting over protective, banning people, etc can change to mood of a forum and sometimes back fires on your intentions to make the experience more enjoyable.  We're all big boys (and girls).

[ehrawn]

I'm glad you're addressing this issue. I remember a recent example of someone affiliated with a brand posting product announcements in the “Gear Talk” category. There needs to be tighter control of these types of posts, making sure they stay in the “About my Brand” category to give people a better understanding of the posters financial motivations.

I am hesitant to agree with any minimum-post-number regulation. Speaking as someone who is new to this sport, being able to freely converse with other members of this forum has really helped me grow. Making me wait to ask the questions, make statements and get feedback, would only make this process slower. Maybe more information should be made available about certain individuals so that we can better assess the information they are posting. I’m totally with you on your point about the shaper, shop owners and team riders. What is the disadvantage of identifying these people? I, for one, am excited about the access this forum gives me to them. I value their opinions and experience, but their financial interests should also be taken into account. In additional to the poster’s “star” status, it might be helpful to include their company, title, etc. in the header. For example, if I’m an owner of XYZ Boardworks, this should be listed below my "Waikiki status." This doesn’t solve the astroturfing problem; people would still be able to set up fake accounts and litter the forum, but at least we would know where the real people are coming from.

[Grayman]

Hi Admin--

I rarely post althoughI read several times each week and have been a member for a while.  The forum is great--lots of good info and discussion.  You have done a great job creating a fun and open place to exchange information.

I work with a multiple listing service for real estate agents and we constantly face the same issue--some users constantly stretch the rules and try to unfairly promote themselves or their listings.  We have found its best to have fewer clear rules, enforced when necessary, but always with caution and input from a group of users.  In seven years doing it, no one has ever been banned and some of the most aggressive agents are also some of the most colorful, and are part of the "family" for better or worse...and it wouldnt be as fun without them. 

A few always test the limits, but at the end of the day good information and a good reputation are king.  Self regulation among users is usually much more effective than heavy handed management.

Great job keeping it loose--hope it stays that way.  Bringing up the issue is important and a good way to handle it.  Thanks for reading my 2 cents.

[Strand Leper]

Admin,

Simply put, you guys are doing a fantastic job.  Usually wihtin one or two posts astrotufers are revealed.  I recall a few threads that recently got out of control, and think that Admin did a good job of firmly suggesting that the threads were no longer useful.  I like to think that members of the forum will respect the few, firmly enforced rules...

Less is more.... and trust me, this site is MORE!

Thanks for all that you do... especially for providing me with a fun outlet that I can enjoy in between (sometimes) stunningly boring tasks.

Tim

[Caribsurf]

Hey Admin thanks for recognizing this and deciding to take action.  Some of these supportive posts are so obvious it makes me laugh.  I have no problem with product recommendations and reviews, but when it becomes obvious that the post is from the company itself or the owner's wife, I have a problem with that.

[corran]

I think having a clear notification under the names of people like myself (under my status, saying Board manufacturer for example) so that it leaves no question in anyone's mind reading a response I make to a post that  (while I may try to be unbiased, bias always creeps in) and that this is thus obvious. So when I respond, someone reading the thread who is new, and does not know I'm a business owner, now does and can take my post with the appropriate grain of salt.

This subject came up once before on a kayaking site and it was decided that the wealth of information that the manufacturers bring to the table is worth far more than the (sometimes obvious brand hyping). Making sure people know I'm part of the industry I would think is enough for them to take what I and others like me say with caution.

On another note, I try to follow the writen,a nd unwritten rules as best I can. When I'm talking specifically about my new board, it goes into About my brand. If I'm posting about a session I did (which of course, I'm using my boards) I put it into Sessions or Gear talk or whatever... Ie - i'f I'm stoked on something new design wise I might put it in gear talk rather than about my brand. One of the reasons is feedback. Posts in place like about my brand get missed. In gear talk I'll get useful feedback on something I'm working on. Conversely, it also put it up for criticism, and also for competitors to read and learn from that criticism and thus learn from my mistakes. That's the trade off... people get informed, learn whats going on in the industry in design and new ideas (otherwise we must assume that all new ideas posted in gear talk are only from amateur sharpers? - doesn;t that exclude a wealth of information?)

I agree, its a grey area, and most of the time my experience is these forums auto censure.  If you're always pimping your stuff, people stop reading it and it becomes counter productive.

Those ore of course just my thoughts.

Corran
"In the industry dude"

[corran]

I think having a clear notification under the names of people like myself (under my status, saying Board manufacturer for example) so that it leaves no question in anyone's mind reading a response I make to a post that  (while I may try to be unbiased, bias always creeps in) and that this is thus obvious. So when I respond, someone reading the thread who is new, and does not know I'm a business owner, now does and can take my post with the appropriate grain of salt.

This subject came up once before on a kayaking site and it was decided that the wealth of information that the manufacturers bring to the table is worth far more than the (sometimes obvious brand hyping). Making sure people know I'm part of the industry I would think is enough for them to take what I and others like me say with caution.

On another note, I try to follow the writen,a nd unwritten rules as best I can. When I'm talking specifically about my new board, it goes into About my brand. If I'm posting about a session I did (which of course, I'm using my boards) I put it into Sessions or Gear talk or whatever... Ie - i'f I'm stoked on something new design wise I might put it in gear talk rather than about my brand. One of the reasons is feedback. Posts in place like about my brand get missed. In gear talk I'll get useful feedback on something I'm working on. Conversely, it also put it up for criticism, and also for competitors to read and learn from that criticism and thus learn from my mistakes. That's the trade off... people get informed, learn whats going on in the industry in design and new ideas (otherwise we must assume that all new ideas posted in gear talk are only from amateur sharpers? - doesn;t that exclude a wealth of information?)

I agree, its a grey area, and most of the time my experience is these forums auto censure.  If you're always pimping your stuff, people stop reading it and it becomes counter productive.

Those ore of course just my thoughts.

Corran
"In the industry dude"

[GSXXTRS]

I've been a  moderator then admin now mod again on automotive forums for 6 years or so and I've seen a lot vendor games.  Since you don't allow direct vendor sales(a good idea as long as you can afford to run the forum without fees) from anyone except personal sales that reduces the worst of it.  If you do see obvious stuff then do some IP searches and bans, including block bans.  Some of the illicit vendors I've dealt with trying to sell behind our backs by PM and email come around and become valuable members after a cool off and reinstatement.  Those are the ones who care about the subject (cars,SUP, whatever) and the other that are just there to shill their stuff wind up with a perma-ban.

In general the members here are the most well behaved I've seen on any other forum.  That helps you greatly in your position.  But in all honesty there were a few things I've seen that should have been corralled or checked out a little sooner.  Some things I wonder if you even saw for a few days.  Maybe you need some help as membership rises.

Oh yeah,... if you make a minimum post needed on a forum they'll just post up in a different way in another forum.

[Pureadrenalin]

I remember a thread a person was asking about a specific paddle and it was a werner and you know the regular thing guys trying to give there true opinions with some experience with that certain paddle or product. Come to find a certain user jumps in the thread and starts giving his two cents on the certain paddle which I found was so fishy because his experience with that certain brand combined with a certain size SUB made no damn sense at all. So you ask who or what he was? I did find out later in other threads couple weeks later HE WAS ONE OF THE WERNER REPS. Talk about marketing. Its like catching a sponsored rider riding a different brand SUB or Paddle how bias or dumb is that. I'm all about true honest opinions when comes to this forum and other forums period but if you cant handle the truth no lie or no ask period.

[Admin]

When I'm talking specifically about my new board, it goes into About my brand. If I'm posting about a session I did (which of course, I'm using my boards) I put it into Sessions or Gear talk or whatever... Ie - i'f I'm stoked on something new design wise I might put it in gear talk rather than about my brand. One of the reasons is feedback. Posts in place like about my brand get missed. In gear talk I'll get useful feedback on something I'm working on. Conversely, it also put it up for criticism, and also for competitors to read and learn from that criticism and thus learn from my mistakes. That's the trade off... people get informed, learn whats going on in the industry in design and new ideas (otherwise we must assume that all new ideas posted in gear talk are only from amateur sharpers? - doesn;t that exclude a wealth of information?)

Thanks for considering the correct spot to post.  Info about new products (or in the works products) when posted by a brand belong in "about my brand".  The "gear talk" category is a great spot for users to find out about the stuff they have interest in.  That area should be driven by plain ol' users.  There are times when shops, shapers, reps, etc., help in answering user questions there, and that can be very helpful, but the topics should be started as user inquiries.  That is a fairly common practice on forums and is unfortunately why the forum bowling that I mentioned above has become an issue.

Thanks again.

[kwhilden]

I think it's appropriate for shapers/manufacturers to start threads on Gear Talk if they are trying to engage regular users in discussion on cutting edge design features, manufacturing technology, new ideas etc...  If you only want Gear Talk to be about users asking questions, then call it "Gear Questions".  But there is great value in a forum where shapers can talk directly with users first without having to wait for someone to prompt them.  

Obviously there is a fine line between an innovative shaper saying "what do you think about this prototype design"  or "what do you guys wants in a design" vs. some manufacturer saying "dude, my production board is the best, buy it". However it seems that our community is pretty good at navigating that line effectively. Enforcing strict rules in the signature really helps, which was something that seemed to be lacking in a couple of recent threads. It is also appropriate for Admins to move threads that cross the line into the Press Release forum.

My feeling is that we have one too many forums on gear discussion. I would vote for combining Gear Talk with the Shape Shack to put even more energy into the forum. Newbies would benefit from seeing the experts at work -- most newbies probably never even read the Shape Shack. I also like the separate Press Release/About My Brand forum for manufacturers to talk about their production products, but encourage shapers/manufacturers to post on Gear Talk about prototypes and new ideas. The real innovators will be obvious and will earn credibility for their brand the hard way. The fakers will be obvious.

All that aside, I think the SUP Zone is one of the best sites on the net and that the Admins do a fantastic job making it so. This discussion is valuable, but also is a relatively minor component of the awesomeness.

[Admin]

I also like the separate Press Release/About My Brand forum for manufacturers to talk about their production products, but encourage shapers/manufacturers to post on Gear Talk about prototypes and new ideas.

Hi Kevin,

I am glad that you posted this because it shows that we have not been clear enough about what we are asking for those sections.  Our apologies for that confusion.  We try to move every post that is put in "gear talk" (by any manufacturer) to "about my brand".  I hope we get them all, but we may not.  Please help us by initially placing those items in "about my brand".  It saves us a step.  People will (and do) find info, to the level that it interests them, in "about my brand" and we thank everyone for using that category for its named purpose.  

[kwhilden]

I thought this was a discussion where you were asking for input on how to improve the forum by encouraging shapers and manufacturers to engage with users? Your response to my comment makes me question whether you actually want such input.

As I described in detail above, I can see a definite benefit to allowing manufacturers to initiate a post in the Gear Talk section in a specific way. I think it will improve the forum substantially. I think that your current rule that every new post by a manufacturers should be made only in the About My Brand forum is heavy handed and counter-productive to encouraging their participation.

I think a good middle ground is to have clearly defined rules on what is appropriate conduct for the forum, and then move posts that violate it.

[Admin]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for those comments.

The "about my brand" section was started a ways back based on user comments and critcisms about the forum.  It is pretty uncommon that we have to move manufacturer postings from the "gear talk" or "general" sections any longer, but it certainly does still happen.  In starting a discussion, we had hoped to clear up any confusion about what we are certainly asking and to get input on some trickier and less clear cut issues that have been causing some recent user concerns.  We understand that multiple opinions exist and that any course of action will not fully satisfy the entire group.  

I assure you that we do value your input.