Author Topic: Displacement vs. Planing  (Read 18574 times)

Kocho

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Displacement vs. Planing
« on: December 13, 2009, 06:16:32 AM »
For SUP that is - standup paddling. Is this guy talking about a SUP being a planing hull full of it or he's got a point? Talking about paddling under your own power (not surfing or strong downwind, which is also a sort of surfing, where the SUP is indeed in planing mode at least some of the time).

and

Do you think you gain more (in terms of more speed or less effort) from the "lift" compared to what you loose from the inefficiency created by the same lift in terms of "pull" forward lost?

Reading John Winters' articles helps understand some of what makes a hull "plane" (or not). Just curious if by effectively pushing on the paddle down a bit and thus lightening the overall weithg and thus minimizing the displacement needed (for a short moment at least) there is a benefit compared to paddling the "old" way. Canoe paddles are shaped very similarly (they have some angle) but no one I think talks about "lift" in the way this guy is (e.g. in terms of minimizing the displaced water).

 ???

Keep in mind - I'm totally new to SUP but not that new to kayaking

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2009, 07:18:57 AM »
I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you questioning whether SUP race boards actually plane and is it worth trying to plane?

Getting on a plane is a fine art. Ask any windsurfer  ;D

Some guys can plane like magic, others need lots of wind. Getting on a plane earlier than the next guy is a highly refined skill and one you'll be pursuing for years to come.

He who planes first wins!

PS when conditions won't allowing planing, you'll be wishing you were on a displacement hull. But when it's windy....  ;D
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 07:21:04 AM by DW »

Kocho

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2009, 08:30:31 AM »
But how much does this "lift" from the paddle help? Wouldn't forward speed help you plane just as well? And to get speed you wnat less "lift" an more propulsion...  I guess there is a "happy medium" somewhere. But for long-distance paddling (except strong down-wave) I see no benefit to "lift" ...

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2009, 08:55:02 AM »
But how much does this "lift" from the paddle help?

Impossible to say for sure. Consider this. The lightest board planes first, all other things being equal. So having a stroke that lifts the hull and reduces dead weight, might help.

You never want to add dead weight to a hull. So don't store cargo on deck when racing.

greatdane

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 09:15:17 AM »
The "guy" in the video is Tod Bradley and he has been paddling and racing canoes, OC's and SUP's forever...
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LaPerouseBay

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 10:43:28 AM »
I guess there is a "happy medium" somewhere. But for long-distance paddling (except strong down-wave) I see no benefit to "lift" ...

You will. 

As time goes by you will see how important stroke technique is.  Watch some videos of the kalamas paddling.  Notice how far forward they reach and how clean their release is.  They barely pull past their feet because they want lift in thier stroke. 

The 'happy medium' you speak of is shifted more toward the 'lift' end of the spectrum than the 'propulsion' end.
 


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LaPerouseBay

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2009, 06:16:24 PM »
Here's a link to some tips and a video of Dave K. 

http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=4766.0
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Kocho

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 06:09:00 AM »
I've been know to make a full of myself on some occasions, but I'll be the first to admit it if there is a good argument for that  ;D. So let me post this below and be it what it may...

Thanks for the replies and the link to the other video. To be honest, that video only confirms my initial analysis - there is no plane at touring speeds. Let's not confuse "flat bottomed" with "planing". I would be very surprised if I saw a SUP paddler being able to plane under his own power for more than 1-2 strokes (e.g. to come over the edge of a wave or to make a quick maneuver). Keep in mind that I also paddle a flat bottomed “planning hull” white water kayak myself and have spent quite a few years wind surfing - until I get these on a wave or really planning under wind power, not only do these not plane, they are bogging down earlier when speed increases compared to round-bottomed designs.

Second, on the entry point of his stroke. I do not know the "guy" – he might as well be the “guru” and I have no disrespect, but I’m trying to be objective here. He may be an expert indeed but if a kayaker saw his paddle entry, he'd send him to a forward stroke clinic. No offence but a lot of his energy goes into a splash of water right when the paddle enters the water. Does a SUP get a benefit form that splashing where a kayak does not? Is it intentionally done or is it just sloppy technique? What is wasting all that energy on the splash gaining him? Or is he compensating somehow for the awkward position due to the long paddle (compared to a canoe or a kayak). Why would he not plant first then pull? He’s not “lifting himself up” thus he is not getting any less displacement by that splash. Unless he is exceeding his “hull speed” by a significant amount consistently, he is not planning. Even if he does momentarily lift himself a bit up by the push down on the paddle, he is losing it and then some as soon as the board comes down from its momentary elevation when his paddle gets close to the exit or on the way forward…

Not denying (yet) this particular way of doing things, just trying to analyze why is he doing it the way he is. May be there is some benefit to it that eludes me at this point. I have looked at some other vids on forward stroke (check the one from the maker of the QB paddles for instance, who has a canoe racing background at the Olympics level) to see the clean entry there – no splash and pure forward propulsion.

Tom

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 08:36:09 AM »
Todd is talking about catching waves, not touring or racing. With a little wave push and a couple of strokes you can get a flat bottomed board up on plane to catch a wave using the stroke he's demonstration. I think he's saying that if you bend over at the waste and draw the stroke past your feet, you'll lose any lift you got from the first part of the stroke.
He does have good points, but I think he could have explained them better.

greatdane

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 10:31:59 AM »
Hey Kocho, totally agree with you on the "splash" theory.  I have done some OC2 paddling/racing and my partner who has done this forever, always tells me that a noisey entry or release equals inefficiency.  So, he can tell when I am getting tired or sloppy even though I'm sitting behind him because he can hear my stroke/splash :D

I think Tod is only paddling to catch a runner or wave in the video and not showing a "race stroke."  At least I hope not...
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Kocho

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2009, 11:05:55 AM »
I think Tod is only paddling to catch a runner or wave in the video and not showing a "race stroke."  At least I hope not...

That might be it. Though I can tell you that efficiency with every stroke on catching waves etc. is exactly where one does not want splashing! When I try to catch a wave or go upstream in my kayak it makes all the difference if I have all my power at each stroke or not. I can tell that when I splash I bring air and the paddle ventilates and it robs me of power ...

diesel

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2009, 01:50:46 PM »
Todd is a master paddler and well respected in Hawaii.  His techniques are spot on.  I think he just wasn't able to demonstrate it perfectly.  There should be no splash on entry.  You need to poke the water like you are spearing a fish, theplant and pull.  I notice that sometimes his videos are not demonstrated as best as they could be but the info is there.  It take many years of canoe paddling to see the merits in what he says.  I gaurantee you that he can smoke most anyone in a downwind run in Hawaii.

PonoBill

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2009, 06:53:00 PM »
Todd certainly knows his stuff, but he's confused me about the planing. In flat water a SUP can't plane--we can't generate that much power. You have to exceed hull speed, run over the top of the bow wave. That happens at about 6 knots for a ten foot board (the hull speed for a 10 footer is 4.2 kts but you have to be about 20 percent above that to actually plane). Our hulls plane on a wave, and that's that.

the stroke info certainly agrees with everything I've seen in watching the best paddlers on these board. Not so sure about the dihedral part.
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Kocho

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2009, 06:05:57 AM »
While my original quesiton was indeed prompted by the vids I linked, later, when asking about the splashing paddle entering the water, I was referring to the Dave Kalama photos and videos someone posted a few posts above: http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=4766.0

Why would he be paddling this way with so much splash? There is no question that he is losing power this way compared to no splash as far as the power transferred to the water as percentage of power applied to the paddle is concerned. There simply can be no argument about this - when there is air around the paddle it ventilates and offers lesss resistance in the water compared to when there is a clean entry.

However, I'm still open to suggestions as to why this way of paddling "with a splash" might actually have some merit overall for a SUP. Due to factors other than the "catch" the paddle has and despite the paddle being inefficient in the water... Any thoughts on this?

Is this just sloppy paddling? Or is there something to be gained by doing this on a SUP that is not there in paddling a kayak? In kayak paddling a splash like that is just robbing you of the ability to apply full power to the water and gains you nothing usefull. Would paddling a SUP be different and why?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 06:12:29 AM by Kocho »

diesel

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Re: Displacement vs. Planing
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2009, 12:00:12 AM »
While my original quesiton was indeed prompted by the vids I linked, later, when asking about the splashing paddle entering the water, I was referring to the Dave Kalama photos and videos someone posted a few posts above: http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=4766.0

Why would he be paddling this way with so much splash? There is no question that he is losing power this way compared to no splash as far as the power transferred to the water as percentage of power applied to the paddle is concerned. There simply can be no argument about this - when there is air around the paddle it ventilates and offers lesss resistance in the water compared to when there is a clean entry.

However, I'm still open to suggestions as to why this way of paddling "with a splash" might actually have some merit overall for a SUP. Due to factors other than the "catch" the paddle has and despite the paddle being inefficient in the water... Any thoughts on this?

Is this just sloppy paddling? Or is there something to be gained by doing this on a SUP that is not there in paddling a kayak? In kayak paddling a splash like that is just robbing you of the ability to apply full power to the water and gains you nothing usefull. Would paddling a SUP be different and why?

Thanks!

Kocho,  I see what you are saying about the splashing.  That is probably just being sloppy when paddling quickly.  I don't think it helps to splash.  Dave Kalama still kicks most anyones butt  even with the splashing.

Regarding Todd Bradley, the board cannot plane at flatwater paddling speeds but his stroke technique is good.  I have not tried the dihedral C4 type paddle so I don't know if it works better but it seems plausible that the dihedral would keep it from wandering.  I like my Kialoa Methane so I am fine with no dihedral.

 


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