WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD

[jjue]

Great questions albertkarel  and I hope the other experienced SUP sailors will chime  in   ... just a few comments .. Supsports does make an excellent point about a daggerboard  or centerboard...  for a neophyte    it is much  easier to get  upwind  on an Sup board with the daggerboard  down ,  learning   windsurfing is  difficult enough and    for a sailor coming to windsurfing , it is much easier to learn  how  make  an SUP sail correctly with a  daggerboard or centerboard  , the board will act much more like a dinghy  sailboat and you can concentrate on  learning sail  control and trim   rather than   trying to figure out how to  create   lateral resistance with the rail or the fin  to prevent  sideslipping ..SUP boards  that I am aware of   that have centerfin or daggerboard options are  some of the Starboard 12-6 that had bolt on  center fin options , the new  12-6 with the retractable daggerboard , or  the Bic Jungle   I have that  has a removable  daggerboard ..

It is a bit confusing   as to what you  do   without a centerboard depending how much wind  you are dealing  with , in light wind  when you are trying to make head way upwind .. , the best way to slog upwind is to keep your front foot  about  6 inches in front of the   mast base , and back foot  a comfortable position  behind the  mast base  both feet   out a bit  on the  windward  rail  of the board. Then by tilting the board to windward, not to leeward, you create a centerboard effect with the board rail (windward) acting as the resisting force.. as the wind  picks  up  , you can move back on the board  toward the fin    as pono bill points out  using the fin more with both the fin and the   rail acting as  resistance to get you up wind ... here is where a deeper fin may   be helpful ..   ..

as you point out .  the trouble in light shifty wind   is that  your  balance has to be just right   when slogging upwind and  weighting the windward rail  or you will be dumped to windward ..  with a  daggerboard or centerboard you do not have to be creating the lateral resistance    with the fin or the rail  and  have an easier time  at  windsurfing ..

most of us long time windsurfers  who  sail shortboards upwind without  centerboards  have gotten used to how to do it   and it becomes 2nd  nature .. and  your post  reminds  us   how much  of what we do  becomes intuitive .. and how much a  daggerboard can help in the beginning ...

hope that helps some and hope others will chime in ...

[1tuberider]

It took around a 1000 attempts to learn to jibe.  You are on day 5-6.

The steps to learn
  Uphauling to start but really waterstarting is the goal.
 
  Getting in the harness.

  Getting in the foot straps.  Alot of sup's don't have them and for high wind sailing they are required.

  Sail trimming, speed, upwind ability, turning are all experience factors.

Sail trimming to turn is a non planning way to turn your board. Leaning mast forward induces the nose to turn downwind, pulling the mast back brings the nose upwind.  At non planning speeds your board will not respond to rail pressure.  Planning turns at speed is foot pressure on the rail, like surfing.

Dagger boards help go up wind in non planning conditions.  I have not used a dagger board in 20 years.
The big boards go up wind fine.

Spend time on the water to learn the steps.  Water starting is really important to know before you venture out in busy channels.  You can also wear a life jacket or impact jacket.  Wear the proper swim wear for the water/air temps.  And tell someone where you are sailing. 

I remember in the beginning I thought I was doing really great and then a sailor blew by me. There are a lot of humbling experiences in windsurfing. Go with the flow.  My top speeds now are in the high 40's so I am not being blown by anymore.  But the best windsurfing is in the wave zone and not the speed contests IMHO.

[jjue]

all great points   1tuberider...   and  as  you point out the doorway to  highwind  windsurfing fun !  

IMHO    sailing an SUP will be  primarily a light wind  and non planing endeavor . ie no footstaps . tacking as much or more than gybing . , . probably no harnesses ( although  I use a seat  harness just to rest my aged arms a bit )  , no waterstarting.,    cruising  ala   Wardog's picture of John Drake ..and as   a complementary activity to  standup  padlling  an SUP ..  my hope is that  those of us who are experienced  windsurfers can develop some tips  for neophytes to have fun and sail their SUP's  successfully in this manner ....

[1tuberider]

My friend toe jammer was out sailing in the surf zone yesterday.  He uses his 9'11 blair for windsurfing sup and it planes.

He is having a ball in gusty conditions because he has great lite wind sailing skills.  He was not planning going out but would turn and ride waves further than I could.  The wave face created an draft that allowed him to have complete sailing control while surfing.

I don't sail in these conditions and he eventually came back out with a paddle after the wind dropped off.

The reason I bought a sup was to sail in the surf but I like surfing on my sup so much I don't think of windsurfing until it is to windy to sup.

[PonoBill]

It's very hard to learn to windsurf from text. I'd really suggest you try to find an instructor. You can make big leaps with someone just telling you what you are doing wrong. It's often very subtle. The footwork requirement of windsurfing is absurdly difficult to master and people who are simply excellent windsurfers are not necessarily the best instructors--you need someone that has been concentrating on teaching people the moves.

I haven't even been able to re-teach myself. I was a fairly advanced windsurfer before I ruined my shoulders--more than 15 years of spending every available minute in the gorge or in Manzanita on the Oregon Coast. I got back into it after a ten year layoff and recuperation period and found I can't do some of the basic stuff. For example, I don't have any step-by-step notion of how to do a basic planing jibe--it's been twenty years since I even thought about it.I went out and bought how to jibe DVD's and books, but they didn't help because they didn't connect to the residual memory of how I did it. One day with an instructor and I had my jibe mojo back.

Even before that I found I can do the much more difficult moves like laydown jibes if I just commit and don't think about them. I suspect it's because I was learning them closer to the time I had to take my hiatus.

Bottom line is that an instructor can help a lot.

In response to some of the other issues, I DO sail my SUP in high wind and I don't use footstraps. I wax my pad to give extra grip and it's enough for most conditions in Maui and a moderate day at the Gorge. Footstraps enable you to control a planing board, but these big boards with their soft rails and wrapped tails don't release water in the back like a windsurfer does.

What I meant by putting more weight on the booms has to do with harness use. When you are hooked in and you have the sail trimmed well a lot of your body weight will be on the booms rather than on your feet. This enables you to move back on the board without sinking the tail. In windsurfing there is the notion of "closing the gap" which means the gap between the bottom rear of the sail and the water. When you see people sailing fast you'll note that the sail is raked well back. People that haven't learned to do this that have their sails more vertical will be going much slower in the same wind. This isn't something you need to be concerned about yet, but once you can get weight back on the board it's much easier to sail upwind.

I find that I CAN steer a SUP with just foot pressure on the rails, even in light wind. A fundamental skill for higher performance sailing is separating the control of the sail from control of the board. Sailing the sail means adjusting it to give you the best power and best board position. The sooner you can get to the point of controlling the board direction with your feet, the sooner you'll be able to sail upwind in varied conditions.

If you have enough wind to waterstart, then you need to learn to do that ASAP. SUP boards are easy to uphaul, but waterstarting is a safety issue. When the wind and swells make uphauling difficult, a waterstart is what gets you back to shore. It's far easier to learn to waterstart with an instructor, and light wind waterstarts are almost impossible to learn without instruction. I learned light wind waterstarts from a french guy in the gorge one day when the wind pooped out. He saw me struggling, dropped in next to me and had me up and running in about ten minutes. I would NEVER have figured out the secrets on my own.

[albertkarel]

It's now day 6 of my efforts to SUP with a windsurf rig.  I'm actually
sailing around and with the help of the excellent posts, and fairly often clawing my way upwind.   

It's all MUCH fun (even though at 67 I need recovery nap).

My SUP-sailing (just like my skiing) shows the roughhewn effects of taking no lessons.  It ain't pretty, but I'm doing it.

But yesterday I cheated.

Wardog at his excellent shop in Santa Barbara, surfingsports.com trailed
the bait...and I was overcome by lust for the Starboard 12 6 with built-in
pivoting daggerboard.  Plus, it never hurts to buy from a store located in one version of paradise.  It was gorgeous.  I strapped the 12 6 "SUPer" on top of my ageing VW camper and headed home.

That was yesterday...a day of much driving and no SUPing.

Today I loaded it up and headed for calm saltwater (the Marina).  First
the paddling.  The 12 6 looks disturbingly narrower than the Mr. Easy even
though the catalog says the 12 6 is 30 inches wide and the Mr. Easy is 32.  Believe me, the eyeball tells a different tale. It looks much narrower. I jumped on, paddle in hand...it was wonderful!  And, with a bit more length, less width, and more pointed bow and stern, I felt noticeably better glide.  The daggerboard knob screws off so you are left with a unimpeded deck.  I still
love paddling the Easy...but the 12 6 was worth the dough even before I strapped on a sail.

So then I screwed on the 5.0 sail and made sure I was in deep enough water before I cranked down the daggerboard.  I actually managed a step-up-on-the-deck takeoff and sailed off into 6-14 mph gusting wind.  Sailing upwind was NOT exactly like having an electric motor, but it WAS immediately apparent that the board was powering upwind without application of special techniques.  It considerably expanded my sailing range. I'll feel much more confident in taking off into larger waters.

Just for the fun of it, I cranked up the daggerboard, and tried some of
the posted suggestions for going upwind without a daggerboard.  They worked considerably better than with the Easy.  It must have something to do with the different hull shape of the 12 6.  Slightly longer, slightly narrower, and more pointed bow and stern.

So despite my "cheating" purchase, the suggestions made in posts to this topic are still valuable and I will use them, especially since I kept the Easy.

No test of surfing the 12 6 yet...having too much fun sailing it...but that will come.  Surfing the Easy was always great fun, and allowed me to catch waves that "real" surfers weren't interested in.   More waves = more fun.  I found that one key to surfing the Easy (and I'm sure the 12 6) is to step back after catching the wave...that allows MUCH easier and fun turns. 

[My one suggestion on SUPs, paddling or surfing, is free up your feet!  Make a real effort to take steps and move around.  When I started I was totally frozen in place and found turning very difficult.  My feet actually got quite tired out stressing in one place.  Freeing up the feet will also come in handy when sailing.]

By the way, I found my sail rig in the used equipment bin at a windsurfing dealer in San Pedro.  That made the experiment much more affordable.     

Finally, PonoBill, one of the helpful posters here, tells me he will be writing more on his blog about sailing SUPs.  kenalu.com.  Bill also does maniac offshore, downwind SUP races and trips in big waves and wind in Hawaii, all documented for your enjoyment with GPS plots overlaid on maps.  The little dips in the GPS plots cracks me up.  They show where he fell off and climbed back on.  Bill, you're a braver man than I !!

Thanks to all the posters for the excellent discussion which I'm sure will be helpful to SUPers thinking about sailing. 

Al
Santa Monica

[SUP Sports ®]

It's now day 6 of my efforts to SUP with a windsurf rig.  I'm actually
sailing around and with the help of the excellent posts, and fairly often clawing my way upwind.   

It's all MUCH fun (even though at 67 I need recovery nap).

My SUP-sailing (just like my skiing) shows the roughhewn effects of taking no lessons.  It ain't pretty, but I'm doing it.

But yesterday I cheated.

Wardog at his excellent shop in Santa Barbara, surfingsports.com trailed
the bait...and I was overcome by lust for the Starboard 12 6 with built-in
pivoting daggerboard.  Plus, it never hurts to buy from a store located in one version of paradise.  It was gorgeous.  I strapped the 12 6 "SUPer" on top of my ageing VW camper and headed home.

So despite my "cheating" purchase, the suggestions made in posts to this topic are still valuable and I will use them, especially since I kept the Easy...snip...


Thanks to all the posters for the excellent discussion which I'm sure will be helpful to SUPers thinking about sailing. 

Al
Santa Monica

Hi Al,
Stoked to hear that the new gear is working for you...

BTW, it's not "cheating" to utilize existing technology appropriately...hundreds of thousands of dollars went into the development of the retractable daggerboard system you are now able to use to make upwind reaches...and, avoid the "walk of shame"...

I talked to the owner of Starboard, Svein Rasmussen, about this development last Summer...he calls it the missing key..."the SUPer 12'6" is the key to unlocking the potential of lightwind windsurfing to a wide public"...and he had recreational sailor/SUP'ers like yourself in mind when they developed this multi-functional...multi-sport product...

http://surfingsports.com/2009/06/super-126-key.asp

[jjue]

This is so great to hear  about how well the Starboard Sup'er works , thanks for the  report  Albertkarel and Wardog -.  great to   see  that  products are   being produced to  address  the need   for   a multifunctional and multisport   board that   can be paddled , surfed and sailed  by a wide public  and with all sports done  competently and well .. ... we  are talking well built  and  high performance products and  not   cheap water toys ..  .     yes  there will be boards that surf better,  sail better , or   paddle better.. , and the real enthusiasts will have quivers of boards. . ,    but for many of us , we just want  one simple water tool that  will have the broadest range of  uses   and  gives us the most fun on the water , the most days,  whatever the condition .  ... sometimes " simplicity can be the  height of sophistication "  very cool ... 

[jjue]

By the way   I have been very happy with my Bic Jungle which  is also  a wonderful multisport tool  ...
differences between the   Bic Jungle    and the Starboard Sup'er   are the Jungle is   signficantly shorter  , lower volume and narrower ,   ( it is a 10'10", width 28 1/4"  board )  which makes  it    less stable in  choppy water for paddling especially for heavier riders.  but makes it perhaps  more manuverable for surfing ,
it has  a removable daggerboard rather than a retractable daggerboard ...  which saves on weight   a bit   but  loses  on convenience....  

Bic has put together a  nice   video  that   highlights the  multisport potential  of these kinds of boards...   ( I  , myself ,   sail  it  ,   stand up paddle  it   , surf it and  paddle  it kayak style either seated or kneeling  - per the double blade thread ...  really a versatile tool )

BIC Jungle 2008

[WaterSurge]

Al,
Nice to hear that you're having fun windsurfing (there are so few new people picking up the sport nowadays  ).

Where *exactly* did you launch from? I just moved to LA and may be interested in sailing my Mistral Equipe sometime...

BTW, for other Stand Up Paddlers that already own a SUP board and may be interested in trying windsurfing, a very economical and eco-friendly solution is to buy a used windsurfing board with a daggerboard (daggerboard is essential if you're a beginner). Some of the windsurfing boards built in the late 80's and 90's were very well built and surprisingly light. A 20-year old Mistral Equipe is still competitive against newer longboards.  There usually are some for sale on Craig's List and E-Bay. Some people are even trying to give theirs away. I recommend buying a newer rig (sail, mast, boom, etc.), though -  they have improved a lot.

Serge

[albertkarel]

Serge-

I go down to Cabrillo Beach in San Pedro, next to Long Beach, all the way at the end of the Harbor Freeway (110).  Google maps will show you the way. It's an amazing, huge area all protected by a seemingly endless seawall, but with  great wind.  In the last weeks, I see the incredibly speedy guys in the afternoon when the wind really kicks up.  They go out beyond the seawall. 

Another good area is Belmont Shores on the south end of Long beach.  Again, Google maps will show you how to get there.  From what I saw, the big wind area is greatly kite surfing.   The good thing about Belmont Shores is the richness of really fun restaurants and shops. 

Every time I go to Cabrillo Beach I meet windsurfers and SUPer...but for SUP, the wind is pretty extreme by afternoon.  I often see an SUP instructor taking students out about 10.  By noon, they are crawling back upwind to the Beach paddling on their knees!   Nice SUP sailing, tho.

[albertkarel]

Here's the REVERSE of this discussion

Using a windsurfer as an SUP.

Just shows to go you...when you're good, you can
SUP an ironing board and make it look good !

http://www.coreban.com/windsurfer.html

[uglysupper]

From the sounds of it, you have progressed very well for such a short amount of time windsurfing.

I have a Kona 11'5, and a Starboard 12'6. I SUP and sail both of them.

Having skimmed the advice given here, I would say most of it is pretty sound. Windsurfing technique/skills is a very complicated thing... many, many factors involved in picking gear/technique/location etc.

i think the best, and most important tip, is this: Get a lesson if you can, and spend as much time as possible sailing around better sailors. Windsurfing are a pretty doggone friendly bunch - I'm sure almost any local sailors you see would happily offer advice.

[albertkarel]

NEW QUESTION -

Can you plane a Starboard 12 6 SUP or other sailable 12 footer?

Yesterday, the winds at San Pedro brutalized me and I limped off.
Too much...I was plowing through the water holding on for dear life!

Today, I started earlier and had a ball, then when the stronger wind
came up I fought it, and one time, stepped back till about half my
board was out of the water...and I'm sure I wasn't planing...but WOW
it was so  responsive and more zippy fun...which is really SOMETHING to say about a 12 foot SUP under sail.

So I wondered....is there anything that inherently stands in the way of planing a big board like the Starboard 12 6 SUPer?   Weight?   I really love this board but wonder if I will always have to plow it along.

Perhaps it's only ME that stands in the way....as the posts in this fine topic shows, technique, experience and knowledge are EVERYTHING.

So if you've planed a big SUP with a sail, let us hear about it.

Thanks for all of your help in getting some sailing going.

AL
Santa Monica

[jjue]

Yup .  Sup  boards   can plane .  and  I think you  maybe were planing,  when most of the board started coming out of the water,    Albert!  Did you  retract your  daggerboard as you stepped back and the front of the board came up in the breeze ?  On big longboards with a  daggerboard ..( ps  the   Starboard you have  , is  the only real SUP  with a retractable daggerboard ,)   the daggerboard often will help  to   create lift and start the board on the plane    ,  then  just  retract the  daggerboard with your feet and you should be  off to the races...

planing on an Sup  board feels a bit different than on a planing sailboat hull or a regular windsurf board.  ..   regular  windsurf boards with    a flatter planing design   and   big fin  plane earlier and faster  with the same size sail ,  .. but  SUP  boards  plane  well in  brisk winds....     I regularly   plane on  my   10'10  Bic Jungle    when the wind  picks up over 15 kts     the bic  has an old style  daggerboard  and i pull the daggerboard out and hang it on  a waist  belt   like ancient windsurf boards without   retractable  daggerboards and  the  water shoots up out of the daggerboard hole  ...  it is a blast !   , no foot straps   , move around on the board more than  on  my regular windsurf boards ,has a  surfy feel  to the ride .  ,   i do use a harness  helping to hold down a  nice big sail  in a breeze .. great fun ,  !

I love this  piece by  PonoBill  about wild and wooly  sailing on SUP boards ! Keep at it  and have fun  !

http://www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog/2007/02/12/wild-and-wooly-longboard-sailing/