Author Topic: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD  (Read 62551 times)

albertkarel

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WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« on: July 03, 2009, 09:50:22 AM »
Can we chat about windsurfing an SUP?   I wanna do it...but my ignorance is deep.

I have a 12 foot Starboard Mr. Easy.  Lots of fun to surf...pretty good to paddle...but it has these two little enticing holes.....mast holes for windsurfing
gear.  What a great thought...paddle, surf and sail all on one board!

So I picked up a good used 5.0 windsurf sail and related gear and screwed it in.

First thing:  being a pretty darned good sailor, and a fair to middlin surfer IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH to jump on a windsurf board and DO IT ! !!

But after a week or so, I'm having much fun mucking around in the wind
as well as the water...I can actually haul up the sail and take off.  Gusts are
fun.

BUT  HERE'S WHERE I NEED HELP:    I sideslip A LOT.  I don't have a daggerboard, or centerboard on this 12 foot beastie and in my VERY limited experience....I'm  sideslipping all over the place....almost impossible to make any way upwind.

MAYBE I SHOULD SPEND THE $$$ and get a 12' 6" Starboard with built-in
centerboard.   

MAYBE I SHOULD KEEP THE MONEY and learn how to sail my existing board better.   But if I do...will I EVER get so I can tack upwind reasonably well??? 

HELP !!!   I'll much appreciate your thoughts, especially those who have sailed SUP's without centerboards, or have tried the 12' 6" with the centerboard. 

All the best from Santa Monica.

AL

robus

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2009, 10:13:33 AM »
Hi Al,

I'm in a similar boat - windsurfing a Mistral Pacifico (and Kona 11'5" - not really a SUP board though). I do find that there is some slide-slip but if you sink the windward rail it can help mitigate it somewhat.

Funny story - it was blowing fairly well about a week ago and a couple of guys with old-school longboard windsurfers were out with me - I'm getting much closer hauled than them - one even said "wow you can almost go right up wind on that thing!" I'm not sure what to put it down to - one of them was a much better windsurfer than me (nice gybing etc). I just yelled back "I don't even have a dagger board!" :o

The worst combination is a current and wind going in the same direction - forget about making headway then.

BTW I get quite a few questions about what kind of board I have - espectially from paddleboarders fighting +10 kt winds. It's really nice to have a board for calm and windy days.

Hopefully someone more experienced can provide more illumination on the best technique?

Robert.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 10:15:15 AM by robus »

EastFL

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2009, 11:43:47 AM »
I'll be interested to hear some feedback as well.  I have the same board as you, but I haven't set it up as a windsurfer before.

Jeroensurf

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2009, 12:48:38 PM »
I,m a windsurfer for +20 years and started two years ago with Stand up Padling+ SUPsailing at my home spot (Netherlands, Europe).

I don,t know if this is the place to discuss windsurftechinques but if the moderators have no problem with it...
What went wrong is what most beginner windsurfers do..leaning too much backwards and compensate that with holding your sail too much open wich make you go downwind.
When you lean a bit more forward and keep the rig upright and more closed you can pull your boom down. With this movement you give more mastfoot pressure, pulling the rails of the board deeper in the water.
When the rail is in the water you keep more grip and sail easily upwind.

Ending downwind is a typical beginners problem and has nothing to do with daggerboards, its just a matter of technique.
That said, the fin of the Easy might be is a bit small and soft.
A bigger stiffer wavefin will help altough most of it is technique.
For more info i would suggest you check the windsurfforums, there are plenty of them :).


jjue

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2009, 02:22:52 PM »
One of the coolest thing to  do with a  Standup board is to  windsurf  it  .   glad folks are getting into  it ...   I have a Bic Jungle and although  it has a removable daggerboard  ..   I found that  I really don't  need it ..  I don't mess with changing the surf fin  and just use the standard surf fin .. .   as Jeroensurf  says    there are  two  very important   things  , first is it get forward on the   board   rather than back on the board and hold the sail close hauled ... then  put your weight out on the   windward rail and  drop   the windward rail right into the  water ,  having the windward rail  into the water  acts as a long  shallow  centerboard  and keeps the board   moving nicely upwind . ..  keep practicing and have fun !


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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2009, 03:03:15 PM »
Hi Al...& others...

Might not be the exact answer you were scratching for...but, novice wannabe windsurfers will do heaps bettah on the Starboard SUPer 12'6" with the retractable daggerboard...you'll gain another 30*- 45* of AOA (angle of attack)...to the wind...best daggerboard system that I've seen...flawless mechanism...nice engineering...also, adds stability for SUP fishing...

No comparison to a board without one...

http://surfingsports.com/2009/06/super-126-key.asp

http://surfingsports.com/2009/01/starboard-super-126-cruiser.asp

http://surfingsports.com/2008/12/synergy-sailing-into-new-year.asp

If you already had enough windsurfing skills to stay to weather, then the stock Cruiser would work for you with a fin change...it has the waterline to get'er done...and, not do the "walk of shame"...


Mahalos...{:~)

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wavehobbit

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2009, 09:24:14 PM »
Right on.....As a surfer, windsurfer and SUPer, being able to put a sail on the board is just gravy.  One of the niches that windsurfing forgot over the last couple of decades was a board that was easy and fun in lighter winds and for the love of all that is good in the world had a surfboards rocker line and rails.  I've been shlogging out on freestyle and waveboards forever.  When it's junked up, nothing beats the ease of shlogging out and catching more then my fair share of waves.  Your going to love it.

I would recommend some lessons.  There is some tricks to the trade in how you work the sail.  Not oversheeting ect.....and foot position.  But basically your going to be sinking the windward rail slightly to get your edge upwind.  Also as one poster said, a bigger fin might help if the one you have is undersized.  In any case you won't be pointing upwind like a board with a daggerboard or a windsurfer planing. But you only need to get upwind enough to get back where you started  to catch another wave.

Have fun.........

Jeroensurf

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2009, 08:00:27 AM »
Or ride backside to go upwind ;)

Kruut

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2009, 11:43:32 PM »
What size and type of rig do you guys recommend?

Should be light and not that big I guess, because you want easy handling and not going that fast as on a race board.

1tuberider

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2009, 06:58:40 AM »
I have sailed my 12'6 starboard and conclude that it is a light air board.  I have planed mine but it is not really designed to be pushed that hard. So I would only use my 12' 6 board on a dedicated wind surf trip on lite wind days because really I am a high wind junkie.

Your spin out is probably due to "to much back foot pressure" but this is stuff that takes time to figure out advancing from getting into your harness, getting in your foot staps and sheeting in at planing speed.

Sail size, board size are dependent on wind, body weight and ability. One size is not right for anything but one condition. Get ready to gear up if you are really interested in windsurfing.  Two boards or more, just about two of all core rigging gear if not more and a quiver of sails to cover lite wind to high wind. My  van has around $10k in wind gear stuffed in it and a couple of sup's. 

So the sup works for sailing but I much prefer a dedicated wind surfing board for high wind sailing. They are build to take it and designed for the stresses sailing demands.

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2009, 09:25:17 AM »
What size and type of rig do you guys recommend?

Should be light and not that big I guess, because you want easy handling and not going that fast as on a race board.

Hi Kruut,
For most people a 5.Xm2 (5.0m2 - 5.9m2) is optimum for SUP windsurfing...
A soft, luffable sail is best...not about planing...just cruising...and surfing...

The Naish "Old School" , Hot Sails Maui "Super Freak", and Aerotech "SUP Wave" are all examples of sails that work well...we prefer high carbon content skinny masts...the Severne "Synergy" is quite cost effective...

http://surfingsports.com/2008/12/synergy-sailing-into-new-year.asp

Here are a couple of pics of David Drake from our SUP demo yesterday...

FYI, he is the son of Jim Drake, the co-inventor of windsurfing...which basically started 40 years ago by attaching a sail to a longboard...

A few more pics in these galleries...

http://surfingsports.com/isla_vista_longboard/index.html

http://surfingsports.com/cali_longboard_wavesailing/index.html

http://surfingsports.com/longboard_wavesailing_cali/index.html
Mahalos...{:~)

WARDOG ®
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(805)962-SUPS (7877) store
(888)805-9978 toll free

Retail Store:
Standup Paddle Sports, LLC
121 Santa Barbara St.
Santa Barbara, CA 93101

jjue

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2009, 09:44:47 AM »
Hey Wardog , thanks    for the  pics  .. and the stoke ...
As a long time  windsurfer .. SUP sailing has   really  rejuvenated the light air fun side of windsurfing   for me , that  was lost  as    windsurfing   migrated  away from a sport for all    to  a high wind   very technical expensive  sport   for the few .. , yeah , I love high wind  windsurfing .. but now  I can have tons of fun just  hanging around at the beach  with my family and goofing around and we can all  share the same board either paddling or  windsurfing .  ( I am land locked , so that usually means no waves  and lake  or river sailing ) .  Remember for most folks   light winds  from 0-15 kts  are the  norm not the exception and these kinds of winds are just perfect for  SUP sailing ..  

also nice to see a dedicated SUP   retailer ,     working to develop   proper  matching of sails to  SUP boards .  and to promote this   aspect of  SUP  riding ...  thanks  and very nice work !


PonoBill

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2009, 10:20:34 AM »
I sail my SUP boards a lot, in fact I only use my windsurfers when the wind is outrageous. Everything you're hearing is about right, though I never bother with a daggerboard. Sailing upwind is something you learn to do, it's a matter of proper sail and board trim as much as anything else. Don't be surprised that you aren't able to do it right away. The "walk of shame" is a common sight at any windsurfing venue, except some places at the gorge where there's no room to walk. There it's Bozo Beach for you, and hitchhiking back to your car in a wetsuit.

To sail upwind you need to learn to sail the sail and surf the board. That means you trim the sail for the wind, don't try to steer the board with it. When you first learn to windsurf you use sail position to steer. Then you need to unlearn that to sail with higher performance.

Once the sail is well trimmed and near planing you can put more weight onto the booms and get further back on the board to press the rail and get pressure on the fin. That will let you drive upwind.

A big SUP board won't fully plane, at least not with a heavy dude like me on it, but they get close. You'll find any good surfing or cruising fin is too small for really shoving the board around under sail pressure, but with a little finesse you can get them to work. If the fin starts to cavitate (skid) you can reduce side load on it, and recover by pulling your rear foot under you.

If you REALLY want a centerboard, you can have a fin box put into the board you already own. Right in the middle is about right.  The older Starboard 12'6" boards often came with a box and a big removable centerboard fin (the kind that screws through the deck--I'm having a senior moment this morning and can't remember what they are called). When you're not using the box you replace the fin with a plug. I doubt you'll be using it long, but they do let you sail upwind in really light conditions. In higher winds centerboards give too much lift in the middle of the board.

As far as sails go, there's a nice lightweight complete package that Severne sells expressly for sailing SUPs. If I wasn't already addicted to Superfreaks I might consider one. You don't need a quiver--a 4.5 or 5.0 is just fine unless you live in a really light wind area. I took a Superfreak 8.0 on my trip around North America two years ago and love the thing. I was overpowered frequently, but with a big board you can sail around any equipment limitations.



There's an ancient Ponohouse article on sailing longboards and SUPs here: http://www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog/2007/02/25/standup-longboard-sailing-and-surfing-101/#more-177
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 10:35:10 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2009, 10:37:14 AM »
Hi jjue,
I totally hear what you are saying and agree, wholeheartedly...
It's not about extreme windsurfing...

Sure, that's fun and exciting and all...I (we) still love it...but, the reality is that it's not obtainable, or sustainable for most people...

http://surfingsports.com/epic_cali_april/wd_cali_wave1.jpg
http://surfingsports.com/jalama_may/slides/jalama_wd4.jpg

We're trying to remind folks about the stoke we had back in the day of just chillin' and grillin' and sailin' (now, paddlin') with friends and family at their local watering holes...wherevers...

Our latest blog post kinda captures that feelin'...

http://surfingsports.com/blog.asp
Mahalos...{:~)

WARDOG ®
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(805)962-SUPS (7877) store
(888)805-9978 toll free

Retail Store:
Standup Paddle Sports, LLC
121 Santa Barbara St.
Santa Barbara, CA 93101

albertkarel

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Re: WINDSURFING A STANDUP PADDLEBOARD
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2009, 11:53:10 PM »
I'm the guy who started this topic.  The responses have been wonderful.  They are very relevant since they are played out against my daily battles to sail upwind without a center/dagger board on my 12 foot SUP.  I'm on day 5 or so...and each day I've had new posts to try out.  Much thanks to all posters.

As a complete newbie to SUS (stand up sailing), I have read books and watched videos, but still have some questions about the some of the posts:

Pono Bill, who has a wonderful SUP site http://www.kenalu.com/, befuddled me a bit with:  "trim the sail for the wind, don't try to steer the board with it".  YIKES! I thought trimming the sail was the ONLY way to steer.  Perhaps he can explicate the subject a bit more.

He says:  you can put more weight onto the booms (how do you do that?) and get further back on the board to press the rail (?) and get pressure on the fin (?). That will let you drive upwind (but how do I do that if not by trimming the sail?).   


Ohhh....I'm operating out of a really deep well of ignorance, and really want to avoid the Walk of Shame (I love the term).....more importantly, I want to avoid sideslipping into the main shipping channel and monster docks downwind of the sailing area in San Pedro, California !!   I can see myself trying madly to sail upwind of that giganto-monster Chinese container ship.


And Jeroensurf, seems to be saying really important things...but I'm just a bit confused.  He advises me to "lean forward"....but doesn't that inevitably steer the board downwind?    He also advises "pull the boom down"...but what does that mean?  Does it mean to push the boom down toward the deck, or pulling on the boom?

He, and others also emphacize pressing the rail into the water to give a centerboard-like effect (much I suppose like the hull shape of my old Prindle cat which had no centerboards, but which magically sailed well upwind).  But there seems to be a difference about WHICH rail to press into the water.
Pressing on the upwind rail has dumped me in the water many times in the last few days when the wind weakens or gusts let up quickly....if it's the upwind rail....I've got to keep practicing.  Another post says pressing on the lee rail will surely round me up into the wind. 

Finally, some suggest moving forward to go upwind.  Just today, in messing around (having just put in a larger rear fin), I moved back on the board and seemed to go upwind a little better.

Finally, there are comments which, I think, say that a centerboard is really not necessary (even tho I am trying to sail a 12 foot SUP) and technique will have me sailing upwind just fine.  Other comments assure me that a centerboard will make a definite difference. Others split the difference and seem to say that in light wind a centerboard is good, but in stronger wind I can ignore it.   

I know my  questions are laughable to experienced SUP sailors....and I'm sure I will chuckle about them in a month, but for now, I will much appreciate a few more words of explanation.

Thanks so much for each of your contributions.


 


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