Author Topic: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.  (Read 7354 times)

ukgm

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2017, 12:52:41 AM »
At your height and weight I don't think you'll be any faster on a 14x25 than a 14x26. You might even be slower over a reasonable distance.

Purely out of curiosity, what makes you say that ? Increased wetted area in the wrong places or lack of stability ?

yugi

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2017, 02:24:55 AM »
Better, UKGM, test it and let us know.

It'd be cool if you did board tests of different race widths with:
- 3 different riders: 75kg, 85kg, 95kg
- 3 different shape boards in 2 race widths

for example (these are ones I’d like to see tested)
Naish Maliko 24 & 26
Allstar 23 & 24.5
NSP Sonic (ocean race dugout) 24 & 25.5

I’m 180cm 75Kg weekend warrior and roughly your speed. I’d help you out.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 02:26:44 AM by yugi »

yugi

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2017, 03:31:34 AM »
^oops. That's

NSP Sonic (ocean race dugout) 23 & 24.5

Area 10

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2017, 04:16:17 AM »
At your height and weight I don't think you'll be any faster on a 14x25 than a 14x26. You might even be slower over a reasonable distance.

Purely out of curiosity, what makes you say that ? Increased wetted area in the wrong places or lack of stability ?
Those factors for sure. But first let's assume that you are tall enough that 1" narrower width makes negligible difference to how easy it is for you to execute your stroke properly. Then perhaps the main one (and linked to those) is how well you can keep your board on an even keel. This is something that Danny Ching (who has tended not to use uber-narrow boards) used to emphasise in the early days of race SUP but is rarely mentioned these days. A board design (especially a flat water one) is created with the assumption that the board remains flat in the water. Each design will vary in how much efficiency it loses as it comes off its unweighted lateral plane. Some suffer remarkable rail steer, and/or an increase in drag. If you are a tall, heavy, power paddler then inaccuracies in your technique will be multiplied in terms of yaw relative to a lighter less powerful paddler. So the powerful paddler can find a loss of tracking and increased drag that far outweighs any theoretical advantage of a small drop in width. This can be compensated for, to a degree, but going wider and by other design differences.

In general, I have a different emphasis than you do about where speed comes from, which probably reflects the fact that you compete at eg. cycling whereas I used to compete at swimming. pdxmike and UKRiversurfers for instance will know what I mean. In swimming, someone who used to be a fast competitive swimmer but has now gone to seed will always be faster than someone who is supremely fit but has never developed good technique. So, for me, I tend to look at technique and the way it interacts with the board as the easy way to increased speed, rather than emphasising so much aspects of fitness and strength as you guys have mainly been talking about (and yes, of course power at the blade captures some important aspects of technique, but technique is hugely more than that).

It is scary to see someone who is a skilled paddler from another discipline apply their feel for the water to SUP. They just seem to be able to extract speed from the water effortlessly, in a way that a much fitter stronger newbie will never do. SUP is an intensely technical sport IMO, far beyond that in cycling, running etc (whilst not denying that they have technique aspects also).

To my mind, the reason why Kai was able to kick ass at the ISA relays in 2016 was substantially that he was able to maintain impeccable technique that was perfectly matched to the conditions. Sure, he might be fitter also. But he probably leveraged his superior feel for the water that day, honed through thousands of hours in the water since he was a baby, combined with superb training and instruction from the likes of Dave Kalama. I think this is why the ocean guys generally do better in flat water than the flat water guys do in the ocean. They are used to thinking about how to maximise efficiency through the water, working with the conditions rather than fighting them. Just like in swimming.

ukgm

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2017, 04:54:21 AM »
At your height and weight I don't think you'll be any faster on a 14x25 than a 14x26. You might even be slower over a reasonable distance.

Purely out of curiosity, what makes you say that ? Increased wetted area in the wrong places or lack of stability ?
Those factors for sure. But first let's assume that you are tall enough that 1" narrower width makes negligible difference to how easy it is for you to execute your stroke properly. Then perhaps the main one (and linked to those) is how well you can keep your board on an even keel. This is something that Danny Ching (who has tended not to use uber-narrow boards) used to emphasise in the early days of race SUP but is rarely mentioned these days. A board design (especially a flat water one) is created with the assumption that the board remains flat in the water. Each design will vary in how much efficiency it loses as it comes off its unweighted lateral plane. Some suffer remarkable rail steer, and/or an increase in drag. If you are a tall, heavy, power paddler then inaccuracies in your technique will be multiplied in terms of yaw relative to a lighter less powerful paddler. So the powerful paddler can find a loss of tracking and increased drag that far outweighs any theoretical advantage of a small drop in width. This can be compensated for, to a degree, but going wider and by other design differences.

In general, I have a different emphasis than you do about where speed comes from, which probably reflects the fact that you compete at eg. cycling whereas I used to compete at swimming. pdxmike and UKRiversurfers for instance will know what I mean. In swimming, someone who used to be a fast competitive swimmer but has now gone to seed will always be faster than someone who is supremely fit but has never developed good technique. So, for me, I tend to look at technique and the way it interacts with the board as the easy way to increased speed, rather than emphasising so much aspects of fitness and strength as you guys have mainly been talking about (and yes, of course power at the blade captures some important aspects of technique, but technique is hugely more than that).

It is scary to see someone who is a skilled paddler from another discipline apply their feel for the water to SUP. They just seem to be able to extract speed from the water effortlessly, in a way that a much fitter stronger newbie will never do. SUP is an intensely technical sport IMO, far beyond that in cycling, running etc (whilst not denying that they have technique aspects also).

To my mind, the reason why Kai was able to kick ass at the ISA relays in 2016 was substantially that he was able to maintain impeccable technique that was perfectly matched to the conditions. Sure, he might be fitter also. But he probably leveraged his superior feel for the water that day, honed through thousands of hours in the water since he was a baby, combined with superb training and instruction from the likes of Dave Kalama. I think this is why the ocean guys generally do better in flat water than the flat water guys do in the ocean. They are used to thinking about how to maximise efficiency through the water, working with the conditions rather than fighting them. Just like in swimming.

Interesting thoughts.

(I should disclose at this point that I'm a former triathlete and competed internationally in surf lifesaving back in the 90's and early 00's. I started out as a swimmer).

Bean

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 11:07:53 AM »
That is interesting; keeping the board flat is a concept that has never been on my radar.  I am total cognizant of rail-steer though.  I'll have to pay attention to see if there is a noticeable difference for me.

JEG

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 01:52:05 PM »
my take to those board brand about weight spec are a lie and you need to be way below that.

ukgm

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2017, 03:32:45 AM »
(especially a flat water one) is created with the assumption that the board remains flat in the water. Each design will vary in how much efficiency it loses as it comes off its unweighted lateral plane. Some suffer remarkable rail steer, and/or an increase in drag. If you are a tall, heavy, power paddler then inaccuracies in your technique will be multiplied in terms of yaw relative to a lighter less powerful paddler. So the powerful paddler can find a loss of tracking and increased drag that far outweighs any theoretical advantage of a small drop in width. This can be compensated for, to a degree, but going wider and by other design differences.


On a related theme, for those interested, I have just been told that the 14ft 26 inch width Mistral Vortex flatwater board will (like its narrower brother) also be coming out soon in an 'XL' version and now rated upto paddlers 100kg in weight. If so, that stands out as a viable option for competitive (but) larger paddlers.

JEG

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2017, 04:16:58 PM »
(especially a flat water one) is created with the assumption that the board remains flat in the water. Each design will vary in how much efficiency it loses as it comes off its unweighted lateral plane. Some suffer remarkable rail steer, and/or an increase in drag. If you are a tall, heavy, power paddler then inaccuracies in your technique will be multiplied in terms of yaw relative to a lighter less powerful paddler. So the powerful paddler can find a loss of tracking and increased drag that far outweighs any theoretical advantage of a small drop in width. This can be compensated for, to a degree, but going wider and by other design differences.


On a related theme, for those interested, I have just been told that the 14ft 26 inch width Mistral Vortex flatwater board will (like its narrower brother) also be coming out soon in an 'XL' version and now rated upto paddlers 100kg in weight. If so, that stands out as a viable option for competitive (but) larger paddlers.

100kg paddler on a 14ft 26 inch board...I don't it will be fun on the bay and open ocean waters. Maybe on flat days with longer depth fin.

Area 10

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2017, 02:50:44 AM »
The Vortex is intended for flat water only. If you want a board for rougher waters then that's the Equinox. I liked the 2016 Equinox - it was similar to the Ace but easier to use, except in surf. Very fast, and more stable than the 14x25 Ace. One of their team riders won the Fiji race on one, against the usual Starborg competition, and conditions were pretty choppy.

ukgm

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2017, 06:55:14 AM »
The Vortex is intended for flat water only. If you want a board for rougher waters then that's the Equinox. I liked the 2016 Equinox - it was similar to the Ace but easier to use, except in surf. Very fast, and more stable than the 14x25 Ace. One of their team riders won the Fiji race on one, against the usual Starborg competition, and conditions were pretty choppy.

Yep, it was literally based on the Ace. A few of the locals like it. The Vortex is very much like the older SB sprint but with a more organically shaped nose.

Luc Benac

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2017, 07:05:30 AM »
I really like the look of the Equinox on the videos I have seen of it. The Vortex looked not super stable as even the top paddlers on the video I have seen seemed to be working a lot to try to keep the board flat. That said they might have been on the 23" and the 26" might just be the ticket.
Inasmuch as these are not distributed in North America for what it seems, that is moot.
Sunova Allwater 14'x25.5" 303L Viento 520
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L Salish 500
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L Andaman 520
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
Blackfish Paddles

 


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