Author Topic: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.  (Read 7353 times)

ukgm

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Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« on: March 21, 2017, 01:42:10 AM »
I'm a little confused when I read the proposed paddlers weights with race boards. The volume of the board doesn't often seem to tie up with the suggested paddler weight ranges. If i had my scientists head on I would guess that this is due to a boards intended waterline hydrodynamic profile being lost if the paddler is too heavy - despite the amount of foam on offer. However, most brands really don't seem to be that scientific in their design. With that in mind, why the discrepancies ?

Bean

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2017, 04:01:55 AM »
I think the answer to that question is very board specific, for instance, how the volume is distributed throughout the shape. And as you pointed out, what's the optimal waterline for that board.

No matter the board shape, your weight will ultimately determine the exact board volume below the waterline.  Narrow and deep seems to be faster than wide and shallow these days.

ukgm

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2017, 06:20:55 AM »
I think the answer to that question is very board specific, for instance, how the volume is distributed throughout the shape. And as you pointed out, what's the optimal waterline for that board.

No matter the board shape, your weight will ultimately determine the exact board volume below the waterline.  Narrow and deep seems to be faster than wide and shallow these days.

Yep, I agree. It's quite a discrepancy though. I can understand it with a board with a boof nose. However, on some of the more traditional piercing nose designs, manufacturers seem to see things differently.

yugi

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2017, 06:34:18 AM »
Pierre posted a height , weight and board size chart a while back.

   http://tinyurl.com/q2njs69 

he wrote:

if you are a beginner, take wider,
if backwash or cross bumps(current, etc) are likely to be encountered, take wider.
this table is just for reference,shaper rails, wide noses may improve stability, recessed decks too ,... this is for a 12,6 pin nosed average transom,for a 14', reduce 1/2 inch, for a 17,another 1/2 inch...


yugi

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2017, 06:42:48 AM »
^ he said he calculated it from standard naval architecture formulas.

I found it very close to truth and it was an eye opener how much height affects stability.

I think the answer to that question is very board specific…

Agree. Less about volume and more about shape however. A low volume board can be more stable (see Bert Berger video explanations which I agree with).


With that in mind, why the discrepancies ?

Marketing. To be honest it depends who is assessing too of course. Some good guys are overly optimistic. And then of course depends on what kind of water one is talking about. You can ride a bamboo stick in pure flat water.

You’re a cyclist. Do you really believe marketing fluff weights?

I can’t remember if it was a SUP, ski or bike web site where a product page claimed one weight and if you clicked through to the tech spec page there was another weight listed. Clearly one page written by the marketing suits and another by the engineers.


PonoBill

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 06:49:38 AM »
I can’t remember if it was a SUP, ski or bike web site where a product page claimed one weight and if you clicked through to the tech spec page there was another weight listed. Clearly one page written by the marketing suits and another by the engineers.

That would never happen if the marketing people were appropriately lazy. I always just took the engineering materials and rewrote them as marketing. Our clients thought I was a genius--"you know so much about our products!" the benefit of only dealing with the internal marketing folks--they never read the engineering stuff.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Area 10

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 06:58:01 AM »
Yeah it should mainly be about waterline and pitching (which depends on volume and surface area of the nose and tail etc) but then this gets all spun up with feedback from distributors, team riders, social media etc and then the guy writing the catalogue divides by the date, multiplies by the age of his niece and adds how many coffees he's had that day.

But I think that after a while you not only start to get a sense of which width works for you, but also which volume. I know for instance that I'm unlikely to be fast on on a 250L 14ft board, but that I probably don't need more than 280L.

yugi

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 07:22:34 AM »
I can’t remember if it was a SUP, ski or bike web site where a product page claimed one weight and if you clicked through to the tech spec page there was another weight listed. Clearly one page written by the marketing suits and another by the engineers.

That would never happen if the marketing people were appropriately lazy. I always just took the engineering materials and rewrote them as marketing. Our clients thought I was a genius--"you know so much about our products!" the benefit of only dealing with the internal marketing folks--they never read the engineering stuff.

cracking up

That was quick. You got some alerts going on whenever marketing is mentioned on the zone? Or a 7th sense?

Isn't life so easy sometimes when you figure it out. You must've had as much fun in marketing as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Trump. Not so smart. Whoops. Wrong thread. Where were we?




ukgm

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 10:14:53 AM »
^ he said he calculated it from standard naval architecture formulas.

I found it very close to truth and it was an eye opener how much height affects stability.

I think the answer to that question is very board specific…

Agree. Less about volume and more about shape however. A low volume board can be more stable (see Bert Berger video explanations which I agree with).


With that in mind, why the discrepancies ?

You’re a cyclist. Do you really believe marketing fluff weights?


I'm more surprised that they don't go for much heavier weights than they advertise to appear to be more inclusive.

Take the Starboard Allstar 14ft 24.5 width at ~300 litres and they quote a max paddler weight of 85kg. Naish Javelin Maliko is only 260l and they quote 95kg paddler max. Fanatic don't mention one at all for their Strike (at 271l in a 26 width).


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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 01:41:11 PM »
Yeah but with the All Star don't forget that it's all about that all-important built-in "porpoising" effect :) Probably if you are over 85kg you will be too heavy for it to "spring you forward like you have a motor on the back" :)

260L for 95kg is pushing it I'd say. Literally :)

ukgm

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2017, 02:15:28 PM »
Yeah but with the All Star don't forget that it's all about that all-important built-in "porpoising" effect :) Probably if you are over 85kg you will be too heavy for it to "spring you forward like you have a motor on the back" :)

260L for 95kg is pushing it I'd say. Literally :)

So what you're saying is that I need a 200l custom then ?!

TallDude

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2017, 02:39:56 PM »
 6'7, 250 lbs, 18' x 25" sharp nose to sharp pin tail, maybe 280 liters? My feet are just about 1" above waterline with no windage.
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2017, 03:26:19 PM »
Yeah but with the All Star don't forget that it's all about that all-important built-in "porpoising" effect :) Probably if you are over 85kg you will be too heavy for it to "spring you forward like you have a motor on the back" :)

260L for 95kg is pushing it I'd say. Literally :)

So what you're saying is that I need a 200l custom then ?!
Funny. Actually, I reckon about 310L would be ideal for you.

ukgm

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2017, 03:39:34 PM »
Yeah but with the All Star don't forget that it's all about that all-important built-in "porpoising" effect :) Probably if you are over 85kg you will be too heavy for it to "spring you forward like you have a motor on the back" :)

260L for 95kg is pushing it I'd say. Literally :)

So what you're saying is that I need a 200l custom then ?!
Funny. Actually, I reckon about 310L would be ideal for you.

Sorry, I meant 300L.  Mind you, in a 25 width, that's going to need some major foam.....

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Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2017, 03:48:22 PM »
At your height and weight I don't think you'll be any faster on a 14x25 than a 14x26. You might even be slower over a reasonable distance.

 


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