Author Topic: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards  (Read 44293 times)

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #150 on: March 21, 2017, 06:02:18 AM »
Kai was paddling 14% faster. I don't believe that Kai is 14% "fitter" than the other elite athletes, do you? A few percent maybe. But 14% is a MASSIVE margin, similar to the difference between a keen but strictly recreational paddler at a local race and the highly-trained semi-pro winner. Basically, he makes these other elite athletes look like amateurs. I don't think "he is fitter" is likely a good explanation. Maybe that would give him up to 5% but this is a difference in performance close to three times that.

Ukgm - you have no excuse now for not winning everything this season on your  Maliko. By your reckoning, it seems, if you don't it's just because you haven't worked hard enough at your fitness :)

yugi

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #151 on: March 21, 2017, 06:03:44 AM »
Clearly Kai Lenny is fit. And, as you say: If you're fit, you're fit.




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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #152 on: March 21, 2017, 06:18:56 AM »
Kai was paddling 14% faster. I don't believe that Kai is 14% "fitter" than the other elite athletes, do you? A few percent maybe. But 14% is a MASSIVE margin, similar to the difference between a keen but strictly recreational paddler at a local race and the highly-trained semi-pro winner. Basically, he makes these other elite athletes look like amateurs. I don't think "he is fitter" is likely a good explanation. Maybe that would give him up to 5% but this is a difference in performance close to three times that.

Ukgm - you have no excuse now for not winning everything this season on your  Maliko. By your reckoning, it seems, if you don't it's just because you haven't worked hard enough at your fitness :)

14% faster doesn't mean that you need to be 14% fitter. You'll get similar gaps in other sports at Olympic level when the measured difference between something like vo2 max might well be within 3% or less. Sure, there are always other factors (things like the psychology or novel ideas like Noakes 'central governor' - in that some athletes can override their own mentally/physiologically established limits). Lets bear in mind that Arthur wasn't always in the direct draft and he kept up with Kai. Without knowing the power outputs, we just don't know.

As for me ? Well, in the races I have done well in, I can assure you I could always be faster (I'm only on year 3 in SUP and still improving - even at 41) and my technical abilities are by far my weakest area (I think I'm lazy in that department) but I do know that in the main, its my fitness load that is stopping me from being any more crap than I am !

yugi

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #153 on: March 21, 2017, 06:22:24 AM »
I blame beer.

ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #154 on: March 21, 2017, 06:26:39 AM »
I blame beer.

........ and in all seriousness, that's the great thing with being a weekend warrior. All things are not equal so you can maximise your advantages in a range of areas because the playing field is never level at amateur level. Lifestyle rules the roost.

yugi

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #155 on: March 21, 2017, 06:47:40 AM »
^ Aye.

... and to that I must add I blame society.

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #156 on: March 21, 2017, 08:48:08 AM »
ukgm - Without strength you cannot generate power.  What gzasinets says about strength is valid and what proper says about technique is valid.

It is not one simple power solution.  You can generate a lot of power and still be very slow over the water because you have too much fat mass.  I have incorporated 3x BW squats and 2x BW DL with lotsa MU and PUs.  Has helped my SUP tremendously.  Whereas my legs and arms would fatigue -> they no longer do so.

Yes power to the paddle face is important.  We all know that.  We also know that strength and power are different.  That is very simple and straightforward and obvious.

Kai caught up because the others in front fatigued.  Happens all the time in races.  You reel a guy in because he just went out too hard and blew up.  Nothing special.  Now Bolt and Phelps are special though.  Not Kai really.

Strength to weight is about direct fat mass reduction -> not just simple weight loss.  Many lose a ton of weight but lose a ton of muscle mass and little actual fat loss.  Tons of clinical data confirming this.  ;)
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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #157 on: March 21, 2017, 09:39:31 AM »
Yep.  Strength is one aspect.  But power application to the paddle blade propelling your board forward is key for sure.  If one wants to be more competitive and faster -> simply just drop kgs of fat and put on kgs of muscle mass.  Plus improve balance and endurance and nutrition blah blah blah.  Easy peasy really.  Just that most do not want to do this is all.  Or maybe cannot.  But weight is just a singular issue.  Strength and power and low BF really are important determinants.
This needs to be measured but if it's anything like swimming or cycling, it's not a strength issue as the applied forces are comparably small. Dropping excess weight is good but putting on excess muscle (for what is fundamentally an aerobic sport) is a bad idea.
Maybe you realize ukgm -> maybe you do not.  But it is extremely hard to put on muscle mass in middle age without putting on more fat mass.  You are only in your early 40s.  Really a youngster vs many others on this forum.  Sarcopenia has not yet ramped up for you.  Maybe not even middle age bulge.

As noted -> fat mass loss should be the primary goal with muscle mass retention.  So as to improve your strength to weight ratio.  This with heavy resistance training should improve your power to weight ratio if you do it right.  SUP specific and cross trained exercises blah blah blah.  Obviously.

Last year I lost an additional 1kg of fat mass and put on 1kg of muscle mass.  My weight stayed exactly the same but my DEXA body comp changed.  That was my goal last year and was achieved.  Adding another 5kgs of muscle would be nice with no more fat loss over the next few years.  Trust me on this ukgm -> it is very hard to put on only muscle mass in middle age.  ;)
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #158 on: March 21, 2017, 09:47:02 AM »
Yep.  Strength is one aspect.  But power application to the paddle blade propelling your board forward is key for sure.  If one wants to be more competitive and faster -> simply just drop kgs of fat and put on kgs of muscle mass.  Plus improve balance and endurance and nutrition blah blah blah.  Easy peasy really.  Just that most do not want to do this is all.  Or maybe cannot.  But weight is just a singular issue.  Strength and power and low BF really are important determinants.
This needs to be measured but if it's anything like swimming or cycling, it's not a strength issue as the applied forces are comparably small. Dropping excess weight is good but putting on excess muscle (for what is fundamentally an aerobic sport) is a bad idea.
Maybe you realize ukgm -> maybe you do not.  But it is extremely hard to put on muscle mass in middle age without putting on more fat mass.  You are only in your early 40s.  Really a youngster vs many others on this forum.  Sarcopenia has not yet ramped up for you.  Maybe not even middle age bulge.

As noted -> fat mass loss should be the primary goal with muscle mass retention.  So as to improve your strength to weight ratio.  This with heavy resistance training should improve your power to weight ratio if you do it right.  SUP specific and cross trained exercises blah blah blah.  Obviously.

Last year I lost an additional 1kg of fat mass and put on 1kg of muscle mass.  My weight stayed exactly the same but my DEXA body comp changed.  That was my goal last year and was achieved.  Adding another 5kgs of muscle would be nice with no more fat loss over the next few years.  Trust me on this ukgm -> it is very hard to put on only muscle mass in middle age.  ;)

Yep, I said I earlier I took your point and agreed with you. I would also say that it depends on background. If you haven't been doing weight training in your youth, its going to be virtually impossible to gain it significantly past 50. I recently took 5 years away from it, regretted it, and have now gone back to it (for the very reasons you mention).

However, I think some people are separately confusing this here as an endorsement for weight training as a means to improve general SUP paddling performance - irrespective of age. Whether it does or not has not been studied but there is plenty of other evidence out there of other related sports at elite level whereby it forms a very small part of the performance package and frankly, some people just need to train their fitness first. Being able to create more force, at a higher load, for around a 15 second stint is not going to make them race winners - its not specific enough to the needs of the sport.

Your options:

1) Strength training to deal with the effects of aging ? Yes.
2) Strength training to paddle a SUP faster ? May not be a high priority.

The key to paddling a SUP faster is training specificity. Identify your limiting factors (based on the events you do) and work on those as a priority.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 10:22:47 AM by ukgm »

ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #159 on: March 21, 2017, 09:55:51 AM »
ukgm - Without strength you cannot generate power.  What gzasinets says about strength is valid and what proper says about technique is valid.



Strength has to be developed in conjunction with the needs of the sport. Being able to squat or bench 200lbs isn't relevant when the actual force generated at a stroke rate of 40-60spm is so small and is done so in a completely different time window. Your limiter will likely be elsewhere first. Cycling and swimming has been through this debate many times over so unless SUP is uniquely different, I strongly disagree. The only reason rowers and sprint kayakers still do large amounts of weights is since their races are generally shorter and the development of top end power (and ensuring injury prevention and force application symmetry) is still a major part of their races characteristics. As the race gets longer, you've got to prioritize aerobic development. (this is not ignoring the age related needs you have highlighted and is a wise consideration in some cases).

I'm not saying weights isn't relevant. What I am saying is that frankly many paddlers would be better served for getting an extra paddle in than they would going to the gym and shunting some steel. If you're not paddling at least 3-4 times a week, you're not going to be anywhere near your (age governed) best speed.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 10:19:33 AM by ukgm »

Luc Benac

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #160 on: March 21, 2017, 10:25:48 AM »
If you're not paddling at least 3-4 times a week, you're not going to be anywhere near your (age governed) best speed.

I also find that for us having a very full time job, it seriously gets in the way of paddling and paddling at your top most definitely.
I supplement week-end paddling with
* yoga, power and hata - great for chore and flexibility
* Foundation Training - helps built a strong base for a strong stroke
And case in point, I am still a crappy paddler....
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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #161 on: March 21, 2017, 10:28:25 AM »
Most peeps have no clue that excess fat mass really is very metabolically active and kinda like an endocrine organ.  As hunter gatherers we were starving near 24 hrs a day.  We were very lean with hardly any fat mass to speak of.  That very same fat protected us from calorie starvation when we could not locate food.  Very simple and perfect.

But not sure who here is saying weight training has been studied for SUP.  But it def helps.  As well training your body for VO2 max and endurance blah blah blah.  I do sprint running intervals for that and active rest etc etc.  As noted if you are unfit -> obviously do some cardio.  Something anyways.

Haha Luc - remember when we first met years ago.  You on your red Touring pintail and me on my Dom.  The good ol days.  ;)

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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #162 on: March 21, 2017, 10:32:44 AM »
If you're not paddling at least 3-4 times a week, you're not going to be anywhere near your (age governed) best speed.

I also find that for us having a very full time job, it seriously gets in the way of paddling and paddling at your top most definitely.
I supplement week-end paddling with
* yoga, power and hata - great for chore and flexibility
* Foundation Training - helps built a strong base for a strong stroke
And case in point, I am still a crappy paddler....

Yep but all that matters is that you enjoy it. I still put in 12 hours training a week but that is split between bike, SUP and weights and I would be better at any of those if I got rid of the other two. The reality is that I have found ways to 'cheat' my training to get close to my best by cross training and that, these days for me, variety keeps me saner than being fastest in any one of those.

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #163 on: March 21, 2017, 10:40:40 AM »
Yep but all that matters is that you enjoy it.

That is the main focus :-)
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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #164 on: March 21, 2017, 11:11:23 AM »
"Strength has to be developed in conjunction with the needs of the sport."

ukgm - as noted squats have helped my leg strength tremendously and DL my back and MU and PUs my upper body.  Obviously I do many other weight exercises as well.  Kinda is fun now in a strange way.

But without power to my legs and arms on my SUP -> I could barely paddle after 8 miles on a tippy board in the rough windy ocean.  Still remember that day vividly.  Had to paddle 2 miles on my knees upwind as my balance was shot in 15 kts.  Ever since then told myself I needed to get stronger.  And did.  Now no probs.

It is basic that strength needs to be adapted for the sport.  That is plain and simple.  But you do need to build up your muscles and CNS.  And heavy resistance weights do that.  Enough mileage is a given on a SUP and your balance improves.

But really my fundamental goal every time on the water is to have fun and relax.  My speed is really a non-issue.  I go plenty fast enough and have no pressing desire to go any faster really.  It is what it is.  I just take it and go.  SUP for me has always been about improving my balance in middle age.  Off water -> about fitness and strength etc.  :)
Fast is FUN!   8)
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