Author Topic: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards  (Read 10171 times)

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #120 on: March 10, 2017, 06:33:18 AM »
I have distance SUPs that vary in width from 23" to 30" wide. I use the narrowest ones just for balance and technique training really - I can't really put the hammer full down on them. So I use the wider boards for aerobic/power development. It's hard to find a single board that would allow you to develop both balance and cardio/power at the same time. You could use the same board but in different conditions but then you'd probably be compromising somewhere on design which would be frustrating.

I often train with a bigger blade than I'd race with too. No one paddle does it all either IMO...

Good reasons to have a quiver :)

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #121 on: March 19, 2017, 08:50:45 PM »
"The 24.5 is a better prospect I guess."

Just tested the 24.5 with chamfered edges this pm.  It is def less stable than the 25 -> but is still quite a bit more stable than the 23.  SB did exaggerate the stability aspect in their vids.  The chamfered edges do give more roll vs the triple concave 25 -> but the 24.5 feels noticably faster and more efficient to paddle.  So with enough inherent stability the 24.5 with a touch less drag would be a my pref over the 25.  The 25 felt a lot slower.

For a mass start race the 2017 24.5 would be a good choice vs the 2016 AS 23.  Just provides that much more stability when needed.  The 23 requires much more concentration comparatively.  I may be doing a race on the 24.5 over 10 miles upwind while my female friend swaps and does the 10 mile DW return.  The total race distance is 20 miles - and we have to use the same board.  If she can get the hang on her 24.5 we will def do that race.  Sounds like fun.

Basically would not want the 23 with chamfered edges unless riding in more flatter conditions.  But for pros though -> def can see the 2017 AS 23 to be just that hair faster and more efficient through the water.  Quite interesting to see the number of old 2016 AS boards racing with the new 2017 boards in this vid though.  Young Finn shows he can play with the big boys as well.  :)



Fast is FUN!   8)
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #122 on: March 20, 2017, 01:04:29 AM »
I have distance SUPs that vary in width from 23" to 30" wide. I use the narrowest ones just for balance and technique training really - I can't really put the hammer full down on them. So I use the wider boards for aerobic/power development. It's hard to find a single board that would allow you to develop both balance and cardio/power at the same time. You could use the same board but in different conditions but then you'd probably be compromising somewhere on design which would be frustrating.

I often train with a bigger blade than I'd race with too. No one paddle does it all either IMO...

Good reasons to have a quiver :)

I don't have a large quiver of boards so I achieve a principle similar to what you describe by changing paddles, fins or through use of tennis balls towed behind the board.
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #123 on: March 20, 2017, 01:09:37 AM »
"The 24.5 is a better prospect I guess."

Just tested the 24.5 with chamfered edges this pm.  It is def less stable than the 25 -> but is still quite a bit more stable than the 23.  SB did exaggerate the stability aspect in their vids.  The chamfered edges do give more roll vs the triple concave 25 -> but the 24.5 feels noticably faster and more efficient to paddle.  So with enough inherent stability the 24.5 with a touch less drag would be a my pref over the 25.  The 25 felt a lot slower.

It makes you wonder where SB are going to take this board this year. I'm certainly curious as its probably the most popular race board out there. I think they are on the verge of pushing the board too far for their general market. What I feel they should have done is not had the chamfered edges but dropped the width a touch. That would have helped educate the market that sub 25 isn't the big deal it used to be. I think they changed too much in one year.

This all said, I'm seriously considering getting one of these at the end of the season to act as the donor board to test the Allison fin system.
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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #124 on: March 20, 2017, 01:59:44 AM »
Never mind multiple fins and shaving half an inch of the width of a board, if you want to be a regular in the podium your best bet is to persuade Naish to bring out an UL board like Starboard have. You are probably too big to reach the upper echelons on a 14ft board, no matter what the design.

It would be great if Naish and Starboard would go head to head in the UL division, and reboot that class.

But of course, if you want to flog yourself to death in training and spend a lot of money on racing just to watch the guys who are the size of some 12 year-olds take home the silverware, then I guess that is up to you :)

Even better, get a UL DW board and set your sights on winning the Icon DW race, or the French downwind ones. Dave Kalama is a pretty beefy guy and he was still able to give nanoperson Kai a run for his money downwind even at twice the young superstar's age and probably about 140% of his weight.

ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #125 on: March 20, 2017, 02:40:44 AM »
Never mind multiple fins and shaving half an inch of the width of a board, if you want to be a regular in the podium your best bet is to persuade Naish to bring out an UL board like Starboard have. You are probably too big to reach the upper echelons on a 14ft board, no matter what the design.

It would be great if Naish and Starboard would go head to head in the UL division, and reboot that class.

But of course, if you want to flog yourself to death in training and spend a lot of money on racing just to watch the guys who are the size of some 12 year-olds take home the silverware, then I guess that is up to you :)

Even better, get a UL DW board and set your sights on winning the Icon DW race, or the French downwind ones. Dave Kalama is a pretty beefy guy and he was still able to give nanoperson Kai a run for his money downwind even at twice the young superstar's age and probably about 140% of his weight.

Some viewpoints for you:

- At a localised level (i.e. within your own country), the main determinants of performance of part timers is training quality, not body size (at elite level this is obviously different). I still place ok in races as things currently stand because frankly many other domestic paddlers just aren't training enough or doing it the right way.

- UL is dead. I'd love to race one but the reality is that it will never take off as storage will be an issue for the masses and its going to be impossible to convince Joe average size that they need a board that is 4ft longer than what they (and everyone else) is currently using.

- SUP is my second sport so one of the reasons I'm relatively transparent about it is that it always seems to take second place to my cycling (not that I'm sized for that either !).
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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #126 on: March 20, 2017, 03:57:11 AM »
UL isn't dead. It's just waiting. It's chicken-and-egg. The brands aren't making them so no-one paddles them. But once you actually have paddled one, it's hard to go back. Storage isn't much harder for a 16 than a 14.

ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #127 on: March 20, 2017, 04:34:56 AM »
UL isn't dead. It's just waiting. It's chicken-and-egg. The brands aren't making them so no-one paddles them. But once you actually have paddled one, it's hard to go back. Storage isn't much harder for a 16 than a 14.

You know this, I know this, but the masses won't need it. I've seen this with surfski's. People are moving to shorter ski's for practical reasons and the pool of paddlers in SUP that want to race is pretty small in the first place. I'd love to see it but I can't see it unfortunately.
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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #128 on: March 20, 2017, 09:21:50 AM »
I don't think that it will be racers who will drive the return of UL boards but the ex-racers, keen downwinders, and explorers/adventurers. After all, Chris Bertish didn't cross the Atlantic on a 14 did he? :)

Racers might as well race on 10-6 boards, really. Once you sacrifice paddling pleasure for convenience, you might as well go all the way. 14 is still pretty inconvenient for transport and storage :)

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #129 on: March 20, 2017, 09:34:45 AM »
"It's bound to be less for one of the typical English distance races of around 80 minutes. Reality will kick in then and I can't paddle a narrow board like you guys. I'm hoping to average 9.1-9.2 in these. Our fastest guys in this country will be 0.3-0.5 faster than that."

A few guys bigger than Danny and up to Dave and Travis can do fine.  Seems to come down to strength to weight -> balance skill endurance etc.  Not many if any top local guys can keep up to either of those guys.  BF and lean muscle are useful determinants when it comes down to speed.  ukgm says he is fairly lean so he should do fine at the local level.  His average speed is good.

At the current pro level -> lighter weight lean but muscled low BF racers from around 140 - 160 win more races by far kinda like Robby says.  But guys up to 200 win many races as well.  They just cannot use the narrowest boards in the model line.  Instead they need to go up a width.  Larry is a good example as well.

AS23 -> AS24.5 and M24 -> M26 make perfect sense for the heavier serious racer.  Weight is not so critical as low BF and high muscle mass etc.

For us and many we know - moving up to a UL does pose storage problems.  14 is the perfect length board for us.  No question.
Fast is FUN!   8)
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #130 on: March 20, 2017, 09:42:44 AM »
"It's bound to be less for one of the typical English distance races of around 80 minutes. Reality will kick in then and I can't paddle a narrow board like you guys. I'm hoping to average 9.1-9.2 in these. Our fastest guys in this country will be 0.3-0.5 faster than that."

A few guys bigger than Danny and up to Dave and Travis can do fine.  Seems to come down to strength to weight -> balance skill endurance etc.  Not many if any top local guys can keep up to either of those guys.  BF and lean muscle are useful determinants when it comes down to speed.  ukgm says he is fairly lean so he should do fine at the local level.  His average speed is good.

At the current pro level -> lighter weight lean but muscled low BF racers from around 140 - 160 win more races by far kinda like Robby says.  But guys up to 200 win many races as well.  They just cannot use the narrowest boards in the model line.  Instead they need to go up a width.  Larry is a good example as well.

AS23 -> AS24.5 and M24 -> M26 make perfect sense for the heavier serious racer.  Weight is not so critical as low BF and high muscle mass etc.

For us and many we know - moving up to a UL does pose storage problems.  14 is the perfect length board for us.  No question.

Moreso it won't be strength to weight but moreso power to weight. Being strong is one thing but be able to deploy force, with an accompanying appropriate cadence (therefore power) is going to be critical. It's why indoor rowing is a big guys sport but outdoor paddling is a little different. The sooner we get power meters in SUP, the sooner this will become apparent.
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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #131 on: March 20, 2017, 09:53:04 AM »
Yep.  Strength is one aspect.  But power application to the paddle blade propelling your board forward is key for sure.  If one wants to be more competitive and faster -> simply just drop kgs of fat and put on kgs of muscle mass.  Plus improve balance and endurance and nutrition blah blah blah.  Easy peasy really.  Just that most do not want to do this is all.  Or maybe cannot.  But weight is just a singular issue.  Strength and power and low BF really are important determinants.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #132 on: March 20, 2017, 11:08:08 AM »
Here is perfect example of a young guy going from very lean -> to just kinda very dad bod average.  He put on 10 kgs of muscle -> but put on 10 kgs of fat mass.  His goal was to gain weight and muscle.  BF went up.  His result is very normal weight gain if one has no clue how to do it properly.  Many BBs get this result.  For the average joe though -> the gains are even less muscle mass and much more fat gain.  You really do need to know what you are doing to add muscle with no fat gain.

Body weight is just a bs number really for me.  What is your speed or strength or power - is much more descriptive.  Peeps should just get a DEXA and know for sure without speculating.  But yeah -> power.  Like that ukgm.   ;)
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #133 on: March 20, 2017, 01:22:05 PM »
UL isn't dead. It's just waiting. It's chicken-and-egg. The brands aren't making them so no-one paddles them. But once you actually have paddled one, it's hard to go back. Storage isn't much harder for a 16 than a 14.

Yes totally agree and back 7 or so years ago there were more unlimited than 14 in the uk. I know for me its going  to be hard to ever go back to a 14' DW board and I have even solved the storage issue for those that don't have space.

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #134 on: March 20, 2017, 02:11:34 PM »
UL isn't dead. It's just waiting. It's chicken-and-egg. The brands aren't making them so no-one paddles them. But once you actually have paddled one, it's hard to go back. Storage isn't much harder for a 16 than a 14.

Yes totally agree and back 7 or so years ago there were more unlimited than 14 in the uk. I know for me its going  to be hard to ever go back to a 14' DW board and I have even solved the storage issue for those that don't have space.
Yeah - for those who find that obscure, what he's talking about is a board that you can take apart into pieces.

Imagine flying to a race and taking your unlimited board with you!

Ok, so that's the storage issue dealt with. So remind me again why you are paddling a short slow board that is unsuited to you?

 


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