Author Topic: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards  (Read 44317 times)

Luc Benac

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2017, 10:44:28 AM »
rather than pretending you are French to seem faster ;)Using kph is plain unpatriotic and well as confusing for most people :) :) :)

Or Canadian.....we still have the Queen for now but metric/decimal is the official measuring system....
Yeah, but pretending to be Canadian would be understandable, whereas an Englishman pretending to be French would be unforgivable. :) :) :)

Downward impossible unless you are Peter Mayle :-)
Just realized I am both Canadian and French, no redeeming features here.
Sunova Allwater 14'x25.5" 303L Viento 520
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L Salish 500
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L Andaman 520
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
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Luc Benac

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2017, 10:46:30 AM »
And slow paddling......  :o
Sunova Allwater 14'x25.5" 303L Viento 520
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L Salish 500
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L Andaman 520
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2017, 12:02:35 PM »
Well, one reason is probably that the Jav 14x26 is only 251L., and that's the biggest one they do. The Maliko 14x26 is 261L and that's already a bit marginal for a powerful unit like you.

But I guess they must know their market. But I  suspect next year though we'll see a little increase in the Naish race board volumes and rail thicknesses.

Next year will be interesting. I judge boards on an annual basis these days.

Eagle

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2017, 01:27:27 PM »
Solid pace ukgm.  SB bumped up the AS volume this year.  Maybe Naish will increase the 24 volume next year -> and make a 22 for Kai.  The volume for the 26 Jav and Maliko is pretty low for mass market consumption.

Can appreciate the wash and wake from a mass start.  A wider board will be more stable in that.  But a narrow board is so much easier to propel.  No doubt weight plays a huge factor.  Kai is much lighter and about my weight - so a narrow board works fine for lighter racers and paddlers.

But can understand that if too heavy you will have difficulty with proper float and increased drag on a lower volume board.  Maybe the new 14x24.5 would have been a better option vs the 12'6 you tried -> or the 2016 AS14x25.  Not many that have raced the AS25 like LC found that particular board to be too tippy.  At about a 2:1 ratio SB dream team riders race the 23 vs 24.5AS.  None race the 27AS.
Fast is FUN!   8)
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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2017, 01:49:24 PM »
Well, he's not going to get an All Star unless Starboard sponsor him, is he? So it's a moot point. Unfortunately for a beefy unit like ukgm, he's sponsored by a brand that have gone all waif-centred since they gave the boot to Dave Kalama.

Mind you, personally I prefer boards to be as low volume as will get the job done. So I think Naish are along the right lines. Spare volume above the waterline is just baggage and windage. So I don't think Maish need much of a change. Just a mild tweaking, so that the 24" wide is about the same volume as the 26" one is now, and the 26" is around the 270L mark. I like the basic design concepts of both the Maliko and the Jav.

I think a tad more volume in the nose and tail for the Maliko might help its downwinding ability too.

Well, that's what I'd do if I were them, anyway. But I'm not, so who knows?

Eagle

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2017, 01:57:55 PM »
Yeah obviously got that memo.  But he did note he plays sponsors year to year.
Fast is FUN!   8)
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yugi

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2017, 02:21:59 PM »
...
 The volume for the 26 Jav and Maliko is pretty low for mass market consumption.


Which is what is nice about them. Want boofy? Look elsewhere. Hope Naish doesn't go and bloat them.

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2017, 02:47:06 PM »
Def low volume is fine for lightweight riders.  Perfect actually.  We have zero probs with that.  But the mass market general population is around 70% overweight or obese.  So it makes sense in some ways to add volume for heavier riders.  Most riders are not lean and mean like Connor or Kai or any top shelf pros.  Personally boofy is a bit much -> but it is what it is.
Fast is FUN!   8)
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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2017, 02:02:47 AM »
...
 The volume for the 26 Jav and Maliko is pretty low for mass market consumption.


Which is what is nice about them. Want boofy? Look elsewhere. Hope Naish doesn't go and bloat them.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting radically altering the design. Just a minor tweak. Low volume boards feel great in terms of handling, and in bigger DW conditions and for surf they are FAR superior to boofy boards. So if you are a recreational user then they make all the sense in the world. But if you are a racer who needs that extra 0.1% speed to make the podium, low volume boards have disadvantages. Low volume usually means thin rails, and although thin rails make a board easier to control, they also are prone to catching. Consider what happens when a 94kg person puts a large proportion of that weight on one side of the board, when the rail they are standing on is either around 4.5" thick or is 7-8" thick. The narrower rail will tend to present a sharper aspect to the water, introducing rail steer - and drag. And if the water is choppy, it will more frequently spill over into the deck of a thin-railed board, which adds effective weight to the board and slows it down.

In tiny ways like this, thin rails come with a huge penalty for overall speed, at the same time as they add manoeuvrability, stability, and surf ability. So for a board that will be used for general racing as well full-on downwinding, the design has to balance these features, and these features are likely to be quite sensitive to the weight of the rider. Naish have clearly done an excellent job in balancing the board for lighter weight riders. And this is not about width or stability since they have addressed this point well also. Instead, it's about the hydrodynamics of what happens when a thin-railed board is put into an edge by different weight riders. I don't know how the thickness of the rails changes according to the width of the different Maliko (or Jav) designs, but maybe it needed a slightly larger ratio increase. Maybe just half an inch or so, which would hardly be noticeable unless you measured it. But it might make just enough difference to make the board even more user-friendly for heavier guys, and increase general paddling speed especially in chop and downwind without ruining the great things about the design.

ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2017, 04:04:49 AM »
Yeah obviously got that memo.  But he did note he plays sponsors year to year.


To be honest, I'm pretty loyal with sponsors as I'm not a world class or elite  athlete and if someone has made the outlay and kindness to throw me a bone, I'm going to stick with them (for example, ive been in the same sponsored cycling team for years - despite getting the odd better offer). However, I never compromise my equipment at all just for the sake of saying that I'm sponsored. If I can't deliver to myself or my sponsors, then I'll step out. It isn't fair on either of us.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 04:06:41 AM by ukgm »

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2017, 05:37:08 AM »
Looking at this issue of board thickness of the Maliko, I notice that all three widths of the 14ft Maliko (24, 26, 28) are quoted as the same thickness (16.2 cms) in the Naish catalog. In contrast, the four different width All Stars are all different thicknesses, which suggests that Starboard have done more than just make the same board in different widths.

Luc Benac

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2017, 06:52:10 AM »
Instead, it's about the hydrodynamics of what happens when a thin-railed board is put into an edge by different weight riders. I don't know how the thickness of the rails changes according to the width of the different Maliko (or Jav) designs, but maybe it needed a slightly larger ratio increase. Maybe just half an inch or so, which would hardly be noticeable unless you measured it. But it might make just enough difference to make the board even more user-friendly for heavier guys, and increase general paddling speed especially in chop and downwind without ruining the great things about the design.

It almost look like if a brand with a proven effective design could keep that design for more than a year and provide sizing of the same model i.e S/M/L with the same overall size 14 x 26 but tweaking on the thickness and the width. A Large Maliko for Bryce would be 26.2" and 5.5" thick while a Medium Maliko for Luc would be 26" and 4.5" or anything like that....
This is a little bit what happen (or should happen) with a custom shaper that knows his boards and has built some experience.
I could perfectly see that if you leave at reasonable proximity and like the shapes, a customer can built a relationship that would result in the perfect board after a couple of iterations over the months or years
Sunova Allwater 14'x25.5" 303L Viento 520
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L Salish 500
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L Andaman 520
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2017, 07:49:05 AM »
Yep. That's exactly what I'm doing with my custom UL DW board - ordering another that is a tweak in terms of width, thickness and rocker to achieve the perfect board for me and my conditions.

But most purchasers won't really know what is best for them I guess, so rely on the big brands to tell them, and SUP is such a new sport that has developed so quickly that there aren't many local shapers around who have proven experience. You really need to race/downwind/surf yourself to know what you are doing.

It would be interesting to see the designs that the various zoners would come up with, if we all had CAD skills. If you started with a basic design you knew you already liked, I'd bet some good boards would result. I do think that perhaps some of the big name shapers are treated as if they have some godlike magical insight that has been uniquely bestowed upon them, whereas many of the boards I have paddled over the last 10 years have made me think that they are often just grasping around for ideas in a fairly hit-and-miss fashion.

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2017, 07:53:20 AM »
This is a little bit what happen (or should happen) with a custom shaper that knows his boards and has built some experience.
I could perfectly see that if you leave at reasonable proximity and like the shapes, a customer can built a relationship that would result in the perfect board after a couple of iterations over the months or years

Totally agree Luc. Rider has to be very experienced as well to successfully convey to the
shaper what exactly he/she is after.
in progress...

Eagle

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2017, 11:00:52 AM »
Can see your dilemma Bryce.  You want a narrower board but more volume to handle your 94 kg big unit weight.  That makes sense as generally narrower boards have less drag.  But sounds like the custom option is not available with Naish if you plan to stick again with them next year.  That was why a supuk custom option was thrown in.  A custom would give you exactly what you want.  But thought at one point you were also racing SB - so put in the AS option as well.  The 14x24.5 should be able to float you easily.  But you did say the 12'6 was kinda tippy for you.

Robby said the 26 felt kinda like riding a 28 and was very stable etc -> and you need not be 140 lbs to be competitive using that Maliko.  Is the 24 too tippy or way low volume for you?  Max weight was indicated at 200 lbs.

In your non-elite class what are others racing on that are placing ahead of you?  Would have thought that most are racing on 25 wide boards or less.

Fast is FUN!   8)
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