Author Topic: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards  (Read 9892 times)

Eagle

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #105 on: March 07, 2017, 11:57:05 AM »
ukgm - would agree 100% you need to read btwn the lines.  The anecdotes represent better the 3 boards.

Luc - the Sprint 25 that I was going to buy a few years back was a huge amount more stable than the Race 25.  If not for the crack on the bottom I would have bought it.  I tried it and the Sprint was stable in the ocean.  But the NH 25 Eradicator you had was actually more stable and probs the same speed.  The E25 was a better board than the S25 by a longshot.  But if you want a lightly used Race 25 though -> there is one still for sale locally at a very good price.

I was offered to buy it before I got the AS23.  Send me a PM if interested.  He posts on this forum and has a 2016 AS23 for sale as well.  Very nice guy and a very highly respected racer.

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Luc Benac

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #106 on: March 07, 2017, 12:42:42 PM »
Yes Mike has been trying to sell his Race 14x25 and is All Star 14x23 for some time, no big secret here. There were also a few others that had trouble selling the Race, mainly because of its twitchy-ness. Same reasoning while it is a fast board if it is going to be twitchy then you might as well go with a Sprint.
The 2015 Sprint I believe brought quite a bit of stability compared to the 2014 but then was only available in 23". There are a couple available second hand for quite cheap considering the fast board it is. But in 23" it is too specialized a board requiring too good conditions for me to get one even at bargain price.
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Eagle

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #107 on: March 07, 2017, 01:01:36 PM »
Yeah Mike is the man.  And a very close bud of Norm as well.

Our mutual acquaintance who sold me his AS23 -> purchased the 2017 Sprint 23 to race this year.  Will be interesting to see how he does on that board.  He told me that he raced Round the Rock on the AS23 - first time without ever paddling that board and had zero stability issues.  Crazy good balance and power.  You know his bro as well as he posts on here from time to time.  Both great guys.  You did a DW with them when I passed by with wifey in the Porsche heading up to Whistler in the summer.  Looked like a great DW day with a few of the lads.  The number of guys DW is mushrooming now with many racers buying dedicated DW boards and getting in on the fun.

Is kinda unfortunate for us average joe paddlers not having reasonable balance like those guys.  Am trying every day to get better though on the AS23.  But those guys kill it.  Heard that Mike can do a backflip and land it on a SUP.  Wow!   :o
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Luc Benac

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #108 on: March 07, 2017, 01:15:17 PM »
Ha that is what Dwayne is getting, makes sense if the 2017 is really more stable - according to Starboard. He is a lighter but strong paddler.
He used his Sprint 2015 at Board the Fjord but the conditions were so bad (wind/chop) that he had a hell of a time. That is one reason I do not want the 2015 Sprint 23". If conditions changed then I would have a very bad day or worse. I am sticking with the BF 24" so that I can be sure to at least to make it back.
* Flat / Infinity Blackfish 14' x 24" Twin to Win LA (For Sale)
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #109 on: March 07, 2017, 01:34:12 PM »
Ha that is what Dwayne is getting, makes sense if the 2017 is really more stable - according to Starboard. He is a lighter but strong paddler.
He used his Sprint 2015 at Board the Fjord but the conditions were so bad (wind/chop) that he had a hell of a time. That is one reason I do not want the 2015 Sprint 23". If conditions changed then I would have a very bad day or worse. I am sticking with the BF 24" so that I can be sure to at least to make it back.

Bearing in mind we're now 6 months from the 2018 boards dropping, I'd personally hold fire for new offerings or go later on for a 2016 sales bargain.
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Luc Benac

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #110 on: March 07, 2017, 01:41:48 PM »
Ha that is what Dwayne is getting, makes sense if the 2017 is really more stable - according to Starboard. He is a lighter but strong paddler.
He used his Sprint 2015 at Board the Fjord but the conditions were so bad (wind/chop) that he had a hell of a time. That is one reason I do not want the 2015 Sprint 23". If conditions changed then I would have a very bad day or worse. I am sticking with the BF 24" so that I can be sure to at least to make it back.

Bearing in mind we're now 6 months from the 2018 boards dropping, I'd personally hold fire for new offerings or go later on for a 2016 sales bargain.

The friend we are talking about is an "early" adopter :-), I am the "bottom feeder".:-)
* Flat / Infinity Blackfish 14' x 24" Twin to Win LA (For Sale)
* All-around / Infinity Blackfish 14' x 26" Twin to Win LA
* Distance / Ace-GT 17'4" x 27" VMG Mako
* Downwind / Riviera RP-14 DW Carbon Innegra 14' x 26"

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Eagle

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #111 on: March 08, 2017, 04:02:16 PM »
"In terms of stability, the 2016 is clearly more stable than the 2017 with their respective stock fins. I’ve read several reviews indicating the 2017 is “as stable if not more stable” than the 2016 — none of us found this to be the case."

These testers weighed in btwn 176 to 185 lbs.  Mid-pack to front mid-pack racers.  What was surprising about the results were the 3 testers all timed really good on the narrow tippy 2016 AS23.  Even though it was the most tippy by far -> it looked to be fastest overall.  Still if the results say are a wash -> this reflects the tippy 23 is not really any slower which some have speculated.  This matches well to my testing vs the AS25 demos.

The AS23 feels tippy at first -> but still remains very fast oddly.  It kinda defies what one normally would expect.  Tippy is expected to be slow -> but on that board you can still put down good solid power.  Probs has to do with efficiency and low drag.  Def with more time on the 23 -> their times would probs drop.  FWS did fantastic first time riding the AS23 as well.  Only 4 sec out of winning that race on the heavier hybrid version.  Not tuned at all for him - but basically an out of box OEM demo.  He really did well.  Bravo.

So looks like the 2016 is more stable without the chamfered edges.   For that little extra bit of speed though -> the 2017 AS24.5 would probs be slightly faster than the 2016 AS25.  Should have slightly less drag.  But looks to really depend on rider balance strength and weight etc.  Like always.  Rider then the board.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 04:17:49 PM by Eagle »
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #112 on: March 09, 2017, 12:05:48 AM »
"In terms of stability, the 2016 is clearly more stable than the 2017 with their respective stock fins. I’ve read several reviews indicating the 2017 is “as stable if not more stable” than the 2016 — none of us found this to be the case."

These testers weighed in btwn 176 to 185 lbs.  Mid-pack to front mid-pack racers.  What was surprising about the results were the 3 testers all timed really good on the narrow tippy 2016 AS23.  Even though it was the most tippy by far -> it looked to be fastest overall.  Still if the results say are a wash -> this reflects the tippy 23 is not really any slower which some have speculated.  This matches well to my testing vs the AS25 demos.



Ignore the times. They are a wash and pretty much worthless. For field testing using GPS systems, its been stated in publications that a data variability (the 'coefficient of variation' which is calculated as SD/Mean x 100) of <5% max is deemed as 'good'. In my own testing I typically get 2-3%.Even if these guys could do more runs and had the same robustness as I did that, it could still mean a swing of 2-3 seconds easily - if not more..... and that's if their controls were good (which we don't know but its doubtful as they openly concede its not scientific). That's why you shouldn't use time as a metric alone.

The only thing I would even indicate from those is that the heavier rider struggled with the narrower board. That's not unsurprising and maybe greater familiarity with it could have changed the result.

The question will be whether Starboard will persevere with the chamfer edges or remove them in a bid to drive the market even narrower. That might make sense in the long run as I definitely see a bit of avoidance in the secondhand market as soon as a board is narrower than 26 inches.
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Area 10

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #113 on: March 09, 2017, 12:40:27 AM »
Yes, well the use of a board is different for current vs. ex-racers, at least in Europe. Few people would choose would to do the paddle that many or most European races are unless it was in the context of a race. It would be too boring. Most new boards are sold to current racers who think that the latest confection is going to make them faster. So when they sell them used, they are often selling to people who want to do different things with their boards, and are usually looking for greater flexibility. If we had more downwind races for instance, there would probably be a greater market for used boards. Who wants to buy a used board that is as tippy as hell and can only be used on a lake? Not many.

I would think that the used market for a Naish Maliko 26 or 28 would be pretty strong, for this reason. All Star used values are probably partially kept down by the fact that Starboard make boards that look cheap, even if they aren't. The fit and finish are not to everyone's taste. I bought an used Ace that had only been paddled for a season and a half, and it looked like I'd retrieved it from a dumpster. By contrast, I bought a used JL Sidewinder that had been paddled to hell and back (including the 11 cities race) and it still looks really good. Since Starboard currently sells about twice as many race boards as any other brand (at least in the U.K.) this probably affects the overall used board value, at least in markets where they dominate.


ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #114 on: March 09, 2017, 01:14:24 AM »
Who wants to buy a used board that is as tippy as hell and can only be used on a lake? Not many.

I would think that the used market for a Naish Maliko 26 or 28 would be pretty strong, for this reason. All Star used values are probably partially kept down by the fact that Starboard make boards that look cheap, even if they aren't. The fit and finish are not to everyone's taste. I bought an used Ace that had only been paddled for a season and a half, and it looked like I'd retrieved it from a dumpster. By contrast, I bought a used JL Sidewinder that had been paddled to hell and back (including the 11 cities race) and it still looks really good. Since Starboard currently sells about twice as many race boards as any other brand (at least in the U.K.) this probably affects the overall used board value, at least in markets where they dominate.

I agree. Sales of secondhand 25-27 inch Allstars and Maliko's remains strong in the UK. It's not helped by the fact that the race board market is small and even if you can cope with something sub 25,  race boards are not an easy everyday board to live with. The depreciation of most boards in the secondhand market is horrific. I wouldn't advise anyone to buy the more expensive lay-ups brand new if they are looking to sell them on again and aren't looking to race.
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Luc Benac

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #115 on: March 09, 2017, 07:50:06 AM »
Who wants to buy a used board that is as tippy as hell and can only be used on a lake? Not many.
I would think that the used market for a Naish Maliko 26 or 28 would be pretty strong, for this reason.
even if you can cope with something sub 25,  race boards are not an easy everyday board to live with. The depreciation of most boards in the secondhand market is horrific.

Yes on all counts.

First priority is to buy an "all-around - do it all" decently fast board i.e. 26"

Second priority (for most aficionados) is to buy a specialised board just for the fun of it and that will be used in more limited conditions:
i.e.
Flat water race board if you have access to flat water <26"
Downwind board if you have access to bigger downwind conditions >26"

This is for people really into the sport. The sub $600 Walmart market is altogether different.
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Eagle

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #116 on: March 09, 2017, 08:37:13 AM »
Cannot dispute the fact that high end race board depreciation is horrific.  That is why Luc and myself and others buy second hand.  Every year there is a glut of high priced boards dumped at very deep discounts.  We like that as non-sponsored average joe riders.  But the AS23 being as fast as the 24.5 and 25 is hard to ignore Bryce.  As well FWS paddling that AS23 to a near win.

Those 4 paddling a 23AS that fast is amazing.  Especially FWS doing it in an actual race!  That 23 is a bit tippy the first time you hop on it -> and generally takes some time before you can work out the jitters 100% before putting down the hammer.  Kudos to those 3 mid pack to top mid pack riders paddling the AS23 that fast.  The writer states they "should be representative of the general SUP racing population".  176 to 185 lbs should be heavier than very high strength to weight ratio pros Kai or Zane etc.  Weight is only one simple measure.  More important is the BF to muscle content.  ie. lean and mean vs over fat and often slow.  Two peeeps weighing the same amount only reflect they weigh the same amount.  But one can be way way stronger and fitter than the other.  Also balance is a huge variable.

"I did not think the basic stability was any better than on my Riviera, and it may have been a little worse, which would make sense because the Riviera carries more width and flatness further forward."

"I was a bit unsteady on the 14x23 AllStar compared with my more familiar 14x23 Riviera RP."

"Summary- 14x23 AllStar speed is on par with other 14x23 boards but it's stability is not quite as amazing as the advertising implies, at least not with the stubby stock fin."

FWS was a bit unsteady on the AS23 -> and the speed is on par with other 14x23 boards.  The 3 testers essentially confirmed that the 23 was basically the same speed as the 24.5 and 25 in that quick unscientific test.  That seems to be the take-away.  We decided to buy our AS23 because we expected it to challenge and improve our balance -> not to race.  A narrow board def does that without question.  But still need to find a M24 somewhere.  Where oh where is that little board hiding?  That is the mystery to be solved for us.  Looks like a fun board for sure.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 09:36:27 AM by Eagle »
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JEG

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #117 on: March 09, 2017, 08:11:13 PM »
Cannot dispute the fact that high end race board depreciation is horrific.  That is why Luc and myself and others buy second hand.  Every year there is a glut of high priced boards dumped at very deep discounts.  We like that as non-sponsored average joe riders.  But the AS23 being as fast as the 24.5 and 25 is hard to ignore Bryce.  As well FWS paddling that AS23 to a near win.

Those 4 paddling a 23AS that fast is amazing.  Especially FWS doing it in an actual race!  That 23 is a bit tippy the first time you hop on it -> and generally takes some time before you can work out the jitters 100% before putting down the hammer.  Kudos to those 3 mid pack to top mid pack riders paddling the AS23 that fast.  The writer states they "should be representative of the general SUP racing population".  176 to 185 lbs should be heavier than very high strength to weight ratio pros Kai or Zane etc.  Weight is only one simple measure.  More important is the BF to muscle content.  ie. lean and mean vs over fat and often slow.  Two peeeps weighing the same amount only reflect they weigh the same amount.  But one can be way way stronger and fitter than the other.  Also balance is a huge variable.

"I did not think the basic stability was any better than on my Riviera, and it may have been a little worse, which would make sense because the Riviera carries more width and flatness further forward."

"I was a bit unsteady on the 14x23 AllStar compared with my more familiar 14x23 Riviera RP."

"Summary- 14x23 AllStar speed is on par with other 14x23 boards but it's stability is not quite as amazing as the advertising implies, at least not with the stubby stock fin."

FWS was a bit unsteady on the AS23 -> and the speed is on par with other 14x23 boards.  The 3 testers essentially confirmed that the 23 was basically the same speed as the 24.5 and 25 in that quick unscientific test.  That seems to be the take-away.  We decided to buy our AS23 because we expected it to challenge and improve our balance -> not to race.  A narrow board def does that without question.  But still need to find a M24 somewhere.  Where oh where is that little board hiding?  That is the mystery to be solved for us.  Looks like a fun board for sure.

that's an interesting pic Eagle?!

Eagle

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #118 on: March 09, 2017, 09:34:32 PM »
Hi JEG - Sarcopenia and loss of balance are major concerns we have in middle age.  We use our AS23 fundamentally to improve our balance.  We use DEXA scans to ensure we put on muscle mass and lose fat mass year over year.  Some peeps clueless lose "weight" -> but lose huge amounts of muscle and only a little fat.  Exactly the opposite of what the doc ordered.  But they lost "weight" tho -> so are very proud of that achievement.  Many are fooled by this drop in "weight".  Sad but it is what it is.

Strength to weight ratio is a much better measure of health power and fitness.  Weight is just a number on a scale.  Balancing on a narrow tippy board is a good measure of balance though.  Narrower the better -> provided you still have fun.  As the writer noted -> the 3 testers according to him represent the general SUP racing population weighing 176 to 185 lbs.  The did fantastic on that tippy AS23.  But yeah the images of fat vs muscle are startling when shown side by side like that.
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #119 on: March 10, 2017, 05:05:34 AM »
Cannot dispute the fact that high end race board depreciation is horrific.  That is why Luc and myself and others buy second hand.  Every year there is a glut of high priced boards dumped at very deep discounts.  We like that as non-sponsored average joe riders.  But the AS23 being as fast as the 24.5 and 25 is hard to ignore Bryce.  As well FWS paddling that AS23 to a near win.



What I like about the AS 23 is that if you can handle it, its a great compromise all round race board. It has the width to handle a fast flatwater race but with the nose to take some chop. However, the reality is that I doubt for those that race (and that isn't everyone) I can't see that board being manageable by us non-elites when you're working at max effort and surrounded by a 100 paddlers. The 24.5 is a better prospect I guess. Your take is unusual though (but makes sense) - if i wasn't racing, I'd be going quite conservative on a boards width and just enjoying the fact I'm not going to be falling in.
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