Author Topic: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"  (Read 12535 times)

Night Wing

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Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« on: February 01, 2017, 04:33:53 AM »
Since I've got room in my garage for another sup, I've decided to look at a longer sup than my custom 8'11"x31"x4" @ 140 liter Hammer built by SUP Sports. BTW, this Hammer was designed first and foremost for sup surfing although I do quite well on it for flat water paddling (tracking in a straight line). My 8'11" Hammer is also great while paddling on narrow creeks which are around 15' wide. I'm also at the moment 150 pounds (68 Kg for you metric fans) and 5'8" tall.

With my 8'11" Hammer, I've got the surfing angle squared away. I'm basically now looking at a longer sup for flat water paddling (better glide) and 30" in width and also, if I get that wild hare, to do a little surfing with it. But keep in mind, I'm looking at leisurely flat water paddling cruising. I've been looking at Tropical Blends Kane model and it's specs are 10'6"x30"x4.25" @ 155 liters and comparing it against  a custom built SUP Sports Mahalo model and it's specs would be (courtesy of WarDog) 10'6"x30"x4.2" @ 158 liters.

Since I like my 8'11x31" Hammer, I thought I would add another wild hare into the mix. So I've thought about a longer Hammer. WarDog offers a production made Hammer and it's specs are 10"6"x33"x4.4" @ 198 liters. Too wide and too much volume for my 150 pound weight.

So I asked WarDog, in a different forum, would the specs for a custom 10'6"x30"x4.2" Hammer be around 164 liters based on a calculated guess. He told me this Hammer would be 165 liters. Since I'd like to get the volume down a little more, I'm (guessing again) that if I lower the width by 0.2" (from 4.2" to 4"), I figure (guessing again) that would take off another 3 liters of volume so a custom 10'6"x30"x4" Hammer would be around 161 liters. I'm hoping WarDog will see this topic and chime in here to see if my guess is close again. I also get a slight added bonus of being closer to the water since my center of gravity will be lower.

Now for some easy comparisons between the Mahalo and Hammer. The Mahalo has a pulled in pointed nose and a pin tail. The Hammer has a wider fuller nose and a chisel tail. I'm guessing the Mahalo has more uplift in the nose than the Hammer does in it's nose. Where I surf on the upper Texas coast, we don't have big waves. In fact, we have very small waves at Galveston, Texas and the best sup surfing bigger waves are at Surfside, Texas. So the 10'6" Hammer might be better suited for these types of small to mushy waves which sometimes barely break than the 10'6" Mahalo.

I'm basically wondering whether a custom 10'6'x30"x4.2" @ 158 liter Mahalo would be better suited for flat water leisurely cruising than a custom 10'6"x30"x4" @ 161 liters (if my liter guessing is correct) Hammer since both models are different in shape. I'm also wondering, since there aren't any sup shops where I can demo a 30" wide sup with a long length, if I can handle a 30" wide sup. I think I can, but thinking I can and actually doing it are two different animals.

If anyone would like to make any comments, both pro and con, please do.



Blue Planet Duke: 10'5" x 32" x 4.5" @ 190 Liters (2 Dukes)
Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
SUP Sports One World: 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 Liters
CJ Nelson Parallax: 9'3" x 23 1/2" x 3 3/16" @ 78.8 Liters (prone surfing longboard; Thunderbolt Technologies build in Red construction)

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2017, 09:22:29 AM »
Aloha Night Wing,
You were 1 liter off this time in your volume calcs this time...but, your algorithm is purty darn good...;-)
A 10'6" x 30" x 4" Hammer would net exactly 160.00 liters...

I've prepared a graphic below that illustrates one of the primary differences in these two SUP models...rocker line...which is also directly related to the waterline of each model...

As you can see, the Hammer has a flatter and faster rocker...less nose and tail rocker than the Mahalo...

We have built a similar one-off custom Hammer for a Zoner named "Slatch Jim" at 10'6" x 31" x 4" @ 165.39 liters...shown in pics below...the 3D rendering for your previous request of volume specs for a 10'6" x 30" x 4.2" Hammer are also shown below...

As to your last question:

Quote
I'm also wondering, since there aren't any sup shops where I can demo a 30" wide sup with a long length, if I can handle a 30" wide sup. I think I can, but thinking I can and actually doing it are two different animals.

If anyone would like to make any comments, both pro and con, please do.

That's a no-brainer...YES...you are quite a bit smaller than Slatch Jim...and, he handles that width and volume with no problem...hopefully, he chimes in because he's allowed other family members and friends to ride it...additionally, he also has a 10'3" Mahalo in his quiver...so, he has many qualified data points of these boards in question being ridden by riders of varying weights and abilities...etc...

Additionally, the Hammer has more primary and secondary stability than other boards at the same width...so, to the gyroscope in your brain it feels like you are on a board at least an inch wider...;-)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 09:29:40 AM by SUPsports »
Mahalos...{:~)

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(805)962-SUPS (7877) store
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121 Santa Barbara St.
Santa Barbara, CA 93101

SlatchJim

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2017, 01:02:42 PM »
Let me know in advance if you're headed out here Night Wing.  We can meet up, you can take them all out for a paddle and we can evaluate each on it's own merits.

I got the green and gray longhammer to be a small day Doheny, San O, Campus Point cruiser and something to practice cross stepping on.

Night Wing

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2017, 07:52:02 PM »
@WarDog

I hate to tell you this, but I don't use any type of algorithm. I just use "plain old guess work" based on your production made models and then try to come to a reference point for a custom finished board. Since your production made Hammer is 10'6"x33"x4.4" @ 198 liters; I guessed by reducing the width by 3", from 33" to 30", would be in the neighborhood of 30 liters. This is based on my guess of, for every 1" in reduction of width would be the equivalent of about 10 liters. So this gave me a starting point of 168 liters.

The thickness of the boards is what throws me a curve because I can't actually see in person how you thin out the rails so more guess work is involved. I know I can get close and that is all that matters to me. I'm very pleased to actually know a custom built 10'6"x30"x4" Hammer is 160 liters. I've already gotten the specs written down on paper so I don't lose them.

And thank you for the illustration of the Mahalo and Hammer showing the rocker of both boards which includes the nose and tail. Very nice comparison. I'm thinking if the wind comes up a little while I'm flat water paddling on a lake like Lake Woodlands or Lake Conroe, the Hammer heading straight into the wind might be easier to paddle than the Mahalo because of the Hammer's less nose lift. But either you or Slatch Jim would have to confirm that for me.

The 10'6" Hammer would have an added bonus because of the smaller waves we have on the upper Texas coast. My 8'11" Hammer sup can handle very small 1'-1'6"' waves where the guys on their skinny width surf boards can't do it. But this longer Hammer would be primarily used on lakes for flat water leisurely cruising.
Blue Planet Duke: 10'5" x 32" x 4.5" @ 190 Liters (2 Dukes)
Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
SUP Sports One World: 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 Liters
CJ Nelson Parallax: 9'3" x 23 1/2" x 3 3/16" @ 78.8 Liters (prone surfing longboard; Thunderbolt Technologies build in Red construction)

Night Wing

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2017, 07:58:50 PM »
@SlatchJim

I wish I would be coming to California in the near future, but that is not going to happen. I very much appreciate the offer you made to me to try one of your personal boards if I should ever come to California again.

I haven't been to California since 1983. I have some friends in California that I could stay with for a few fun filled days. Some of them live in Laguna Niguel and the others live in La Verne.

Again, thank you for your kind and generous offer to try out some of you personal boards.
Blue Planet Duke: 10'5" x 32" x 4.5" @ 190 Liters (2 Dukes)
Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
SUP Sports One World: 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 Liters
CJ Nelson Parallax: 9'3" x 23 1/2" x 3 3/16" @ 78.8 Liters (prone surfing longboard; Thunderbolt Technologies build in Red construction)

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2017, 08:36:00 AM »
Aloha Night Wing,
Since it sounds like you will be mostly flat water paddling, I can tell you from head to head testing, that a 10'6" Hammer is going to be faster than a 10'6" Mahalo...or, any 10'6" (+) conventional surfboard shape...

As you are well aware from your 8'11" Hammer that paddles in flat water remarkably well, the more parallel rails of the Hammer helps the board to track better with less paddle side changes...with less curve in the outline, it also responds well to foot weighting pressure to keep a straighter line...

The bottom contour hydrodynamics are very efficient...contributing to it's terrific glide characteristics in conjunction with a flatter overall rocker previously discussed...

Additionally, because of the volume distribution and fuller outline with volume back and out towards the rails, you will experience increased primary and secondary stability enabling you to increase your cadence and power in your stroke...

You are correct in your assumption of a longer Hammer helping you gain an advantage in smaller weaker waves...earlier entry and more glide which equates to more speed...giving you the opportunity to practice nose rides...etc...along with the "Chisel Tail" helping with maneuverability...

You will also be able to get some nice little glides in your short period wind swells on your lake(s) and/or bay(s) at the coast, if you were to get the opportunity to do some down wind runs having your wifey , or friend pick you up...

Lastly, as you are aware with your current Hammer...we provide you with an array of high quality fins and 5 fin boxes to optimize the Hammer to your conditions and riding style...

Mahalos...{:~)

WARDOG ®
Owner/CEO  StandUp Paddle Sports®  &   SurfingSports®.com, Inc.

(805)962-SUPS (7877) store
(888)805-9978 toll free

Retail Store:
Standup Paddle Sports, LLC
121 Santa Barbara St.
Santa Barbara, CA 93101

Night Wing

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2017, 03:00:15 PM »
@WarDog

I'm glad to see you posted some photos of the different sizes of your fins because that is the next question I'm going to inquire about. And of course, I'll have a little guess work of mine with regards to fins just to keep it interesting for the lurkers who might be interested in this topic.

When I bought my custom 8'11" Hammer from you, I bought 6 fins and I might add, they work remarkably well. They were: (1, 8.75") (2, 5") (2, 4") and (1, 2.25").

If I purchase a custom 10'6" Hammer, I would want 6 fins (and guessing again) with the sizes of: (1, 9.75") (2, 5") (2, 4") and (1, 2.25" ).

I figure these fins would work well with the 10'6" Hammer for both flat water paddling and sup surfing in conjunction with my present 150 pound physical weight. What do you think of my fin choices?
Blue Planet Duke: 10'5" x 32" x 4.5" @ 190 Liters (2 Dukes)
Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
SUP Sports One World: 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 Liters
CJ Nelson Parallax: 9'3" x 23 1/2" x 3 3/16" @ 78.8 Liters (prone surfing longboard; Thunderbolt Technologies build in Red construction)

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2017, 03:37:29 PM »
Aloha Night Wing,
I concur with your fin choices...caveat...if you get grasses growing on your lakes, (I can't recall if you said they were bad or not) then I would recommend the 9.25" FreeWeed instead of the 9.75" Wave...it actually has a little bit more surface area...

I just got a new shipment in...we were getting low...

More SUP fin info:

http://supsports.com/sup-fins/
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 04:04:21 PM by SUPsports »
Mahalos...{:~)

WARDOG ®
Owner/CEO  StandUp Paddle Sports®  &   SurfingSports®.com, Inc.

(805)962-SUPS (7877) store
(888)805-9978 toll free

Retail Store:
Standup Paddle Sports, LLC
121 Santa Barbara St.
Santa Barbara, CA 93101

Night Wing

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2017, 05:11:58 PM »
@WarDog

Looks like I've covered all the major details I wanted to know. If I think of anything else, like whether I want to go all carbon or not, I'll post back into this topic thread.

As always, thanks for expertise and knowledge. It's always much appreciated by me.
Blue Planet Duke: 10'5" x 32" x 4.5" @ 190 Liters (2 Dukes)
Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
SUP Sports One World: 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 Liters
CJ Nelson Parallax: 9'3" x 23 1/2" x 3 3/16" @ 78.8 Liters (prone surfing longboard; Thunderbolt Technologies build in Red construction)

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2017, 10:06:25 AM »
Aloha Night Wing,
No worries...stoked to help you out...we're all about making your SUP dreams come true...

http://blog.surfingsports.com/2016/04/custom-sup-dreams.html

I'm on my way down to one of the glassing factories that we use today to work on foil box installations...but, I wanted to throw out another tweak for you to consider if you are more inclined to lean towards my classic, round pin Mahalo shape for a potential custom SUP...

I can easily relax the standard rocker a bit, to give you slightly more waterline without compromising it's surfability...see attached image below...
I've done this a number of times for other clients to optimize my shapes to their particular venues...

http://supsports.com/standup-paddle-boards/california-custom-series/

Basically, using advanced CAD board shaping technology, we can easily make an already fast board...even faster...;-)

Here's a testimonial that we received from a paddler who also lives in Texas and paddles on lakes regarding the Mahalo...BTW, he grew up surfing in San Diego...

8/22/13
Subject: Mahalo

Hey you guys:

I just wanted to let you know the Mahalo arrived yesterday morning safe, sound and without a scratch on her…..

I took her out for a spin this morning, and man I gotta tell you the lake was crowded….no not really…at first light there was only me out (that’s why I love East Texas)….

But I gotta say I wasn’t expecting the Mahalo to be so fast and easy to paddle.

What an amazing board and beautiful too.

Miles of smiles is right. You really hit one out of the park with the Mahalo Wardog.

Thanks for everything…..as usual the service and Aloha you guys share with your customers is beyond compare (Thanks Dave).

Peace and good waves….

Robert Townsend (Tyler, TX)


http://supsports.com/customer-testimonials

JoAndi, in images below, shows the waterline of the standard Mahalo on a reservoir near her home in Idaho...lots of other pics and vids on our Mahalo pages...

http://supsports.com/standup-paddle-boards/mahalo-series
Mahalos...{:~)

WARDOG ®
Owner/CEO  StandUp Paddle Sports®  &   SurfingSports®.com, Inc.

(805)962-SUPS (7877) store
(888)805-9978 toll free

Retail Store:
Standup Paddle Sports, LLC
121 Santa Barbara St.
Santa Barbara, CA 93101

SlatchJim

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2017, 03:17:40 PM »
Night Wing:
I might be able to help with the decision on what type of lay up you want. Here's the back story.  I've owned:
An all-epoxy South County Turtle 10-0 x 34, sold after 2 years, heavy, inexpensive but a great intro board.
Mahalo x-wide in production epoxy with one side bamboo. (Still own, 6 years old, Daughter's board)
One World wide in production epoxy with one side bamboo. (Niece now owns, 6 years old)
9-5 Hammer custom, carbon top epoxy bottom, still own, 5 years old
9-0 Stoke custom, S-glass epoxy, sold (and wish I hadn't)
8-10 Hammer custom, carbon top epoxy bottom, still own, about 3 years old
10-6 Hammer custom, carbon top epoxy bottom, still own, about 3 years old
9-6 Stoke x-wide, Production all carbon, purchased used (go to board), about 1.5 years old
9-2 Stoke, Production all carbon, purchased used (wife's go to board), about 1.5 years old

Problems:
The exposed carbon rails on two boards melted the inland sun during a move last year.  If you're going with carbon and live where it gets warm, keep it painted and in the shade.
Put nice knee holes through the mahalo and one world as we learned what NOT to do. Probably would have done equal if not worse damage to other lay ups.
Snapped the 10-6 hammer in pounding beach break (which according to my son, was Awesome!) that board has seen the most time in the shop by half.
Three of the boards had leaks at the vent. (none of the all carbon boards have yet.)
If you're a klutz, the all carbon boards can be more fragile and more costly to repair.  We've become adept at moving, loading and surfing them without damage. 

Selling points:
The production bamboo models have held up really nicely over time and are still serviceable and fun, if a bit heavier. And they're way less expensive.  The smaller models of these are pretty light so if I were going way smaller I'd have a hard choice to make.
The all carbon boards are really light, easy to load, carry, surf great, and are not really all that fragile when care is taken.  I see people with original versions of WD's designs in all carbon, and the boards still look like new.
The carbon top boards are a good compromise, and overall, pretty light.
I've seen his ballistech boards in person, and seen their performance over time. They're light, look great, and eco-friendly. All new customs we buy will be of this material.

I'd rank my choices as 1. Ballistech custom, 2, All carbon (custom or production), 3. production bamboo tops, 4. Carbon tops customs.



« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 03:29:41 PM by SlatchJim »

Night Wing

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2017, 08:50:57 PM »
@WarDog

I've been all over your website like ants on a sugar cube. If I'm not mistaken, JoAndi's Mahalo is 10'3"x29.5"x4.3" @ 165 liters. I know you can modify any board for a custom build. But I'm just going to go with decreasing the thickness and thinning out the rails to compensate for the thinned out rails.

Let me ask you this. In my way of thinking, the Mahalo and the Hammer can easily handle flat water paddling. But it's always good to get another opinion and what better way than to have the designer of both models give his opinion. So which would "you choose" for flat water paddling without any rocker modifications to either the Mahalo or Hammer? Since I already own an 8'11" Hammer, I've been very impressed with it for flat water paddling since it is so stable for me and it paddles easily in a straight line. Also speed is not a factor for flat water paddling for me. I flat water paddle for enjoyment so I do not care how long it takes me to get from Point A to Point B.

Between the Mahalo and the Hammer, I'm leaning towards the 10'6" Hammer because I think it can handle poor beach break wave conditions better than the Mahalo because of the Hammer's rocker and it's chisel tail. Even though I've never rode a Mahalo, my gut feeling is telling me the Mahalo's rocker and it's pin tail is not going to like the usual small beach break waves I normally encounter.

Blue Planet Duke: 10'5" x 32" x 4.5" @ 190 Liters (2 Dukes)
Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
SUP Sports One World: 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 Liters
CJ Nelson Parallax: 9'3" x 23 1/2" x 3 3/16" @ 78.8 Liters (prone surfing longboard; Thunderbolt Technologies build in Red construction)

Night Wing

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2017, 09:05:33 PM »
@SlatchJim

Thank you for your long and "detailed" comments on materials. My custom built 8'11" Hammer is all carbon and it is completely painted; top, bottom and rails. My 8'11" Hammer has two vent holes because where I live in Texas, the summer heat indexes range from 105-112 degrees F.

I like carbon for it's light weight since there are times I have to carry the board, through a salt marsh for around 125 yards to reach the water and the muddy conditions sucks my feet into the ground when I walk. I will look into the ballistech custom versus carbon custom.

I'd type more, but today (Thursday) was my birthday and the three Hurricane drinks I had earlier this evening.....are now getting to me if you get my drift.   ;) At least I can still type coherently.  ;D
Blue Planet Duke: 10'5" x 32" x 4.5" @ 190 Liters (2 Dukes)
Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
SUP Sports One World: 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 Liters
CJ Nelson Parallax: 9'3" x 23 1/2" x 3 3/16" @ 78.8 Liters (prone surfing longboard; Thunderbolt Technologies build in Red construction)

SlatchJim

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2017, 09:25:45 AM »
My all carbon stoke is the board of choice when making the 4/10 mile walk down trail 6 at San Onofre too.  :)

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Re: Mahalo 10'6"x30" vs Hammer 10'6"x30"
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2017, 11:25:31 AM »
Aloha Night Wing,
A belated Happy Birthday to you!
May you be blessed with many more wonderful trips around the sun...

Both of these models work nicely on flat water...especially, in the 10'6" size range that you are interested in...you can see the slight differences in the rocker that I have been discussing in the pics below with Kelsy on the 10' Hammer and Paige on the 10'3" Mahalo...

If you did a head to head...apples to apples comparison race with your hypothetical virtual twin rider...the Hammer would edge the Mahalo out because it is faster in a straight line with it's flatter rocker profile...and, tracks better because of the more parallel rails...

In poor beach break wave conditions, the Hammer would again edge out the Mahalo, as you analytically suspected...it will get into waves faster...and, get up to speed faster...also, continuing to glide...holding it's momentum, even if the wave peters out...because, of it's increased hydrodynamic efficiency...which also makes it an exceptional nose riding SUP...

You can see Marie below basically getting into an almost non-existent "wave"...
The volume distribution of the Chisel Tail allows the board to ride higher in the water, not bogging down in smaller weaker waves, as a more thinned out and narrower tail on a board like the Mahalo would...

The Hammer is also unique in the fact, that if you were presented with bigger overhead waves, it easily adapts and rises to the occasion...
I'm riding a 9'5" Hammer in the bottom pics...

I personally haven't seen a better all around, all waters SUP, on the water...or, for that matter on the market, in the last 12 years that I have been heavily involved in developing products for the sport of standup paddling...and, standup paddle surfing...




« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 11:28:56 AM by SUPsports »
Mahalos...{:~)

WARDOG ®
Owner/CEO  StandUp Paddle Sports®  &   SurfingSports®.com, Inc.

(805)962-SUPS (7877) store
(888)805-9978 toll free

Retail Store:
Standup Paddle Sports, LLC
121 Santa Barbara St.
Santa Barbara, CA 93101

 


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