2017 Allstar 14 reviews???

[ukgm]

There is a breaking point where reduced width is overcome by the paddlers mass being too much for the reduced board volume.  This is highlighted by the suggested rider weights for each board.

I don't believe the information about the riders weight really is correct.
The 2015 Sprint 14x23 has a recommend riders weight of 85kg.
The 2016 Sprint 14x23 with the identical shape has a recommend riders weight of 95kg.
The 2017 Sprint 14x23 has has a recommend riders weight of 95kg.
The 2017 Allstar 14x24.5 with much more volume than the Sprint has a recommend riders weight of 85kg.
The Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder 14x25, also with less volume than the 2017 Allstar has a recommend riders weight up to 95kg.

I am not an expert and it seems to me illogical but maybe there is an explanation for this.

Yep and the Naish Javelin in its 26 inch width has a volume of 251 litres (which is 20 litres lower than is typical for a board like this in that width) yet still has a recommended maximum weight of 95kg. I know some will say you don't need as much to float you as you think but the intended waterline is going to change so 10kg each way would surely seem to be important. It's got to be a case of marketing overuling science in my view.

[Rideordie]

I think you are both right about the suggested weight range and volume. My FX has 290 and it floats me fine. At 309 liters, the AS 24.5 has 6.5% more volume and it is 2% more narrow. The math seems to be in my favor.  The AS also has a very sunken deck as compared to the higher and dead level pad of the FX. As with the FX, I am willing to sacrifice a small amount of flat water speed for enhanced chop ride and up/down wind capability. I have been pretty much an SIC fan boy for the last few years, but from what I have gathered, the AS seems to be a bit better in this space.  When I briefly tested the AS 25 last year, I was shocked at how quickly it accelerated and how stable it was for a 25. Upwind was ridiculously good. My ride was short, but I could tell that it was pretty much a magic carpet ride. If the 2017 is even better and you can pick the hybrid up for only $2200, then they have it nailed for me. I am going to call my dealer and see if they have one in stock. I have tried buying on line , but shipping is such a crap shoot. From my experience, you have about a 50% chance of shipping damage, plus no chance to test. From now on I am buying local, where I can test and bring home an undamaged board, even if that means a 7 hour round trip.

[Eagle]

NOOOO..  not a Tiki board..   .  So the honeymoon with your FX is over?? Say it ain't so..

BTW, don't forget what happened when the Brady's got involved with a Tiki..

Haha - I actually remember that episode ...   

proper - yeah looks like something is up with that.  Surprise surprise SB.

Ride - def best option is to demo for sure even with a 7 hr trip.  Positive is that proper and GD are around your weight and both seem to like the 24.5 ok.  I like SIC as well - but the Tiki is not the Brady Tiki.  I don't think ...

[SUPflorida]

Question...lot of talk about overall volume...how much volume is relevant? Anything above the waterline is secondary volume. So a board has 300+ liters of volume...what's real effect is 9+" nose thickness that only engages .05% of the time?

[Area 10]

It's a complex thing. Volume isn't so much the issue as a side-product, I think. For instance, dug-outs like the Ace work because they can have very high rails but maintain stability. High rails do not catch as much, so they are superior for speed (at the expense of surfability and ease of handling in sidewinds and chop). They also create high volume statistics. But the design isn't working *because* of the high volume. It's working because of the high rails.

Rocker is another issue. High rocker boards can sit lower in the water where the paddler is for a given volume. So the designer can add thickness at the standing area to keep the deck/rails from being swamped in chop. This is why something like the M14 is so thick in the middle. Again, the volume is just a by-product of keeping the rails from catching, and water off the deck, which slows paddling progress markedly. The trick I think is to have just enough volume to keep the rails from catching, and the nose and tail not digging as the board pitches through the stroke. But how much volume this takes will depend on the design (especially the rocker line) and the intended use.

So you really can't tell much from volume statistics IMO. You need to paddle the board and see how it floats with you on it, in the conditions you are going to paddle it in. I don't think you can tell accurately in advance what board volume will work for a rider of a particular weight.

This is why you will get apparent inconsistencies between board volumes and recommended paddler weights across different board models. It all depends on the hydrodynamics of the design.

[ukgm]

Question...lot of talk about overall volume...how much volume is relevant? Anything above the waterline is secondary volume. So a board has 300+ liters of volume...what's real effect is 9+" nose thickness that only engages .05% of the time?

Agreed but bear in mind a board has been designed for a particular waterline profile. Sink a board too far from that and it's not going to perform well.

[Eagle]

"Rocker is another issue. High rocker boards can sit lower in the water where the paddler is for a given volume. So the designer can add thickness at the standing area to keep the deck/rails from being swamped in chop. This is why something like the M14 is so thick in the middle."

^^^ Here is a pic of my M14 before Jimmy reduced the rocker line on his current M14.  Below that a Rail with what looks like about a similar amount of rocker oddly.  The Rail rocker is not a lot flatter.  But the benefit of both is that the volume is put to good use by keeping the nose swing weight low while keeping the paddler standing area relatively dry.  Even though you are well above the water line - stability is really good - and you can recover from a close call. 

The pic on the bottom is a broach save.  You can see the volume gives me time to shift my bodyweight just in the nick of time.  I still remember this like it happened yesterday - the fin stalled huge and spun me around.  It just about was about to flip when I recovered.  A lower volume float board would have probs tipped over in that same situation.  So the extra volume above water does have a benefit that way.  As noted before - I do not find extra volume to be much of a hindrance at all.  Instead it makes a board like the Bullet 17.4 for example - super stable.  But for cross winds - a big high volume nose can catch wind - and pose steerage problems.  The higher stance position probs has some effect - but is quite ok on the M14.  I really like that board - as it has kept me very dry vs soaked. 

[yugi]

...
Here is a pic of my M14 before Jimmy reduced the rocker line on his current M14.  Below that a Rail with what looks like about a similar amount of rocker oddly.  The Rail rocker is not a lot flatter. 
...

Rail is flatter.
Get on one and you'll see.

...
  It just about was about to flip when I recovered.  A lower volume float board would have probs tipped over in that same situation.  So the extra volume above water does have a benefit that way.  As noted before - I do not find extra volume to be much of a hindrance at all.  Instead it makes a board like the Bullet 17.4 for example - super stable. 
  ...
 

  Disagree.
  If you are higher above the waterline when you tip over one reaches a point where it  gets worse and worse, due to your height. The tree trunk roll effect. Lower decks have less of this problem. Your M14 is giving you stability for other reasons (the hammock effect).
 
  I find extra volume boards have more sidewall which makes them gets slapped by cross chop. Lower volume DW boards get slapped around much less by cross chop. Ask SupUk and people who have used his boards (I've used similar, and also get massively crossed up DW conditions).
 

[Eagle]

Def in the pics those look pretty similar - but maybe some day we will get one here on the West Coast - and can confirm in person.  As noted the JL boards are not well supported in these parts.

But yeah - did think about that lower standing position before I posted.  If in the pic I had a lower standing position board - it would be fully submerged say another couple of inches.  That would have probs been just enough to swamp the board and force a flip.  Already my foot is in the water.

But def everyone is different how they feel on a board.  Just my perspective is that every board that has high volume - really is no problem for me to handle.  The thing about the M14 is that it has the best rolled trapezoidal topside rail.  It shrugs off side waves like no other board I have paddled.  Other boards like my Dom and AS have inverse and vertical profiles that catch waves and wind.  As well the M14 is great because it forces you to stand centered on the board.  So many aspects make that board stable including the flat bottom and hard edges everywhere.  Jimmy designed a fabulous board for sure.

[Eagle]

yugi - here is a pic showing how much flatter my Bullet 14V2 is vs my M14.  Was expecting the Rail to have say something in between those 2 boards.  Not anything as extreme as my version one M14 - but a rocker a lot less than in the pic.  Anyways I am perfectly good with that much rocker on the Rail.  Makes it real good for steep waves we often get round here.

I remember going over this in another thread comparing the M14 to the Rail.  Both had similar volume when compared to the Rail 28 - so what was the difference?  Seems that the profile is slimmed down and underbody is different with the entry vee - double concaves - and panel vee tail - and probs less hard edges.  Also could be had in carbon.  So enough of difference.  Plus the 26.5 option of course.

So basically the rocker I see is perfectly ok for me. 

[yugi]

yugi - here is a pic showing how much flatter my Bullet 14V2 is vs my M14.  Was expecting the Rail to have say something in between those 2 boards.  Not anything as extreme as my version one M14 - but a rocker a lot less than in the pic.
 …

I’m often on or next to a Rail26, an M14, a Bullet V1 or V2.

The Rail26 IS in between M14 and V2. A wee bit more rocker than a V2 through the body, more ski jump just at the tip of the nose and more kick in the tail. Much narrower forward section. Lighter than the V2.

That narrow nose and little extra ski jump in the tip makes the Rail so awesome when it does poke. Pretty sweet in a stiff upwind too. Destroyers through the oncoming waves rather than going boingggg like a V1, V2 or M14 does.

You’re comparing a pic of you on an M14 and a Rail28 with nothing on. As soon as you have someone standing on the Rail26 it appears a lot less. It’s a slick little board that doesn’t feel like much volume. Switch from a Rail26 to a Bullet V2 and you feel like you’re stepping onto a cruise ship. Makes me feel like asking for directions to the bar.

Get on a Rail26 and see for yourself.

[Eagle]

Hey yugi - yeah I know the pic was not apples to apples - but the general float rocker is very apparent in that image.  The Bullet 14V2 is way lower when it just sits in the water unloaded vs that Rail.  Would be excellent then if you could take a photo of those 3 boards floating and post - so we all can compare ourselves.  Most of us on here have not seen the Rail in the flesh.  It could be that the 26.5 does maybe have a slightly lower rocker vs that 28.  A pic is worth a 1000 words.

Yeah in docile conditions the Bullet 14V2 is very barge like.  That is why it feels like a slug on flat and has a top end speed limit.  But as noted its waterline width is less than the pointy M14.  The shoulders are very deceiving.

But def if a Rail 26.5 or 28 is around in these parts - will bring my M14 down to compare firsthand and take a photo myself and post on here.  So will keep an eye out for sure.  But as noted - we have no JL dealer in Vancouver.  Mine came up from the States.  Actually told Luc about that very board - but he had just put in an order for some other board.  Maybe that Bark DW.  Worked out that I got it for my wife.  And she uses it while I use the Bullet.  But whenever I go with the lads in big breeze or into Squamish I prefer the M14 for safety reasons.

[yugi]

Will take pics but that’ll be in springtime. Our lake is under inversion clouds and its super sunny on the mountains. The crew will be back on the lake when the snow sucks and its sunny again on the lake. Which is in a couple of months. The water is 4 C now (39F) and air below freezing.

I actually find the Bullet V2 to be pretty quick in flats. I know, I know, there’s faster etc and that if I did a serious training session with a top racer I’d rather be on a race board and him on the V2, but between buddies it’s a wash.

The Rail narrow shoulders are interesting for very little slowdown in event of a poke but also is effectively a pretty narrow board where you plant your paddle. Which is pretty cool.

Sorry for thread drift. Where were we? I like the 2017 Allstar colors and am damn tempted by a 23. I really like the idea of a very stable design where one can go narrower. I’m impressed with some the weights of people on their Allstar 24.5/25’s. I’m jonesing for a 23 now. Me who never needed a race board.

[Eagle]

yugi - here are 2 images.  Rail first pic - M14 second pic.  The rocker variance is not a lot different unless my eyes are deceiving me.  Rail is a bit more gradual vs the M14 more slope at the tip.  Overall height at the tip - looks pretty close.  Can see then why the Rail would jump on plane faster vs the sticky M14. 

But yeah - that's why I think a AS23 would work for you.  If 200+ are good on the 24.5 -> then you should be fine on a 23.  It will def feel tippy at first though until your jitters and balance settle down.   

[Luc Benac]

I’m jonesing for a 23 now. Me who never needed a race board.

Ha! So you were advocating single board quiver in order to get your friends to sell their race boards cheap - dirty trick :-) :-) :-)
I think that most of us had a zen phase but quickly came back to a quiver or two or more.