Author Topic: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]  (Read 344469 times)

PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1095 on: March 23, 2017, 08:45:25 AM »
I didn't say it was politically safe. The insurance companies wouldn't like it. They have a little money. the medical community wouldn't be thrilled either, especially the major recipients of that 3.6 Trillion.

The easiest fix possible (from a care and expense perspective) is medicare for everyone. The insurance companies actually loved medicare--it removed all the expensive people with the highest degree of risk from the pool. Much easier to make money with the geezers gone. Of course that wouldn't be the case with medicare for everyone.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 08:52:07 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1096 on: March 23, 2017, 11:00:08 AM »
Politically - Ryancare is a hyuuuge mistake by the R's. Trump and the R's who are still with him are tangled in their campaign promises now. Ryancare barely frees up the insurance companies, keeps forced transactions (pre-existing conditions), and subsidies. IMO they should repeal O'care completely and then pass easier, quicker, smaller bills to cover the campaign promises. They kept saying they would repeal O'care but they really are just editing it and keeping some of the worst parts.

I just read this article (below) and actually found a doctor in my area who does this (as a matter of fact she delivered my first child). Paying a monthly service rate direct to the Doctor and then keeping a high deductible plan for major medical is probably the best option for someone my age. The article makes sense (I have always thought the same way about dental insurance). You don't bill your car insurance for an oil change, why should we have our insurance pay our doctor for a checkup?

http://www.businessinsider.com/direct-primary-care-a-no-insurance-healthcare-model-2017-3

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Tom

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1097 on: March 23, 2017, 11:05:06 AM »
Mr Big is right, bad word, especially to the Republicans. Medicare for all is also too 'socialized'. The problem the Republicans have is that obamacare is a conservative plan that includes coverage for all.  For whatever reason, that want to destroy it and have made a promise to replace it with a better plan. They cannot come up with a plan that is as good or better unless it is either socialized or a copy of Obamacare. Rock/hardplace

Supleave, I wanted to read your article but its blocked if you use an adblocker. Can you post it here if its not too long.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 11:08:32 AM by Tom »

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1098 on: March 23, 2017, 12:07:32 PM »
I tried to turn it into jpgs so I could post it here.

Edit: but it didn't work - see PBills post below.











« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 12:34:58 PM by SUP Leave »
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PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1099 on: March 23, 2017, 12:26:53 PM »
Just turn your adblocker off for that domain.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

mrbig

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1100 on: March 23, 2017, 12:53:07 PM »
Change of plans. Not voting today...
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Tom

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1101 on: March 23, 2017, 01:22:36 PM »
The direct primary care plan is good for what it does, which is primary care. They state in the article:
"It might give the false impression that it's a kind of insurance, so people might not opt to also get a real insurance plan. But if a patient were to have a health issue outside the scope of primary care, they wouldn't be protected financially. All the providers Business Insider spoke with said they recommended patients have some form of insurance,..."
This is what we do with my wife's Obamacare silver plan through Kaiser. We pay for any 'primary care' out of pocket and have a high deductible to cover any major problem. She's 60 and our premiums are $600/month. I'm not sure what how the 'direct primary care' is different.

Also, without Obamacare, where is the guarantee we can have access to the health insurance, whether affordable or not.

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1102 on: March 23, 2017, 02:00:18 PM »
The direct primary care plan is good for what it does, which is primary care. They state in the article:
"It might give the false impression that it's a kind of insurance, so people might not opt to also get a real insurance plan. But if a patient were to have a health issue outside the scope of primary care, they wouldn't be protected financially. All the providers Business Insider spoke with said they recommended patients have some form of insurance,..."
This is what we do with my wife's Obamacare silver plan through Kaiser. We pay for any 'primary care' out of pocket and have a high deductible to cover any major problem. She's 60 and our premiums are $600/month. I'm not sure what how the 'direct primary care' is different.

Also, without Obamacare, where is the guarantee we can have access to the health insurance, whether affordable or not.

Direct primary care is different because it is a direct transaction between you and your doctor - no insurance middle man. An offer for service and an acceptance of that service - free trade, yes! The prices and scope are right in the contract you sign with them. I checked locally and I can get a membership for $260/mo for a family of 5. Basically it cuts the layers of administration required to handle insurance and so the cost can be less. The monthly payment gives the office a constant source of income so that it does not have to deal with being slow-paid by insurance and medicare/aid.

High risk or major health insurance should still be purchased. I like the model, and if it makes sense financially I might try it.

Why should there be a guarantee to access health insurance? That is a forced transaction, it makes the insurance companies unwilling partners in the trade. So they charge more for it. The government should be involved in health insurance to the point that they watch for and crush monopolies. There is no need to guarantee access to anything. I realize this is the pre-existing condition argument and there was two solutions to this before O'care - state high risk pools and charities. Both are better options than having all rate payers make up the difference.

They aren't going to get rid of Medicaire or Medicaid. If health insurance is something you want, then get it.

Just heard on NPR that the R's are looking pretty hard at the pre-existing condition item again. That will be hard for Trump to swallow, but the R's are starting to stand a little taller against Trump. He deserves it.
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Tom

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1103 on: March 23, 2017, 02:16:48 PM »
Why should there be a guarantee to access of education in the US?

I see access to health care as important as access to education. I don't have kids, why are my taxes going to pay for other children's education when they really don't appreciate it and don't do their homework.

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1104 on: March 23, 2017, 03:01:22 PM »
Why should there be a guarantee to access of education in the US?

I see access to health care as important as access to education. I don't have kids, why are my taxes going to pay for other children's education when they really don't appreciate it and don't do their homework.

Simple, there are positive externalities for the greater good that come from education. I'm sure your life is made better by the fact that we are a largely educated society. Educated societies are safer, cleaner, and more prosperous.

Why are we mandated to have car insurance? Same reason - in cars there are externalities. It is not always a single car accident.

What does my purchase of health insurance do to you? Nothing. If I don't purchase it? Nothing.

Your argument that access to healthcare is equal to access to education is pretty much how we get to the single payer - socialized option. Which would be likely better than the in-between we have now. I don't like it because profit drives innovation, and when we can make things better we should.
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lucabrasi

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1105 on: March 23, 2017, 03:06:16 PM »
I see access to health care as important as access to education. I don't have kids, why are my taxes going to pay for other children's education when they really don't appreciate it and don't do their homework.
Awww heck Tom, that's just the republican in you there. I keep wondering why all those protesters don't get a job myself. Maybe if they had done their homework......
This health care stuff is just all sorts of f'd up. Rates were skyrocketing before the reform crap. That's what made it such a hot thing......gotten worse...blah, blah.

Mr Big is right, bad word, especially to the Republicans. Medicare for all is also too 'socialized'. The problem the Republicans have is that obamacare is a conservative plan that includes coverage for all.  For whatever reason, that want to destroy it and have made a promise to replace it with a better plan. They cannot come up with a plan that is as good or better unless it is either socialized or a copy of Obamacare. Rock/hardplace
btw, i tend to agree with you here in many ways.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 03:16:32 PM by lucabrasi »

pdxmike

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1106 on: March 23, 2017, 03:35:01 PM »
What does my purchase of health insurance do to you? Nothing. If I don't purchase it? Nothing.
That's the problem--that's not true.  If you don't have insurance, and can pay for anything out of pocket, I'd say it's true.   But if you go into an emergency room needing some expensive treatment, but without insurance or your own funds, you most likely won't be left to die--you'll get treated, and my insurance will go up next year.  If we'd just not treat anyone who can't pay, then it would be different.

But even then, if you have no insurance, and get a cough but don't get it treated because you know you're not covered, then cough on me and I get your bubonic plague or whatever it is you're carrying because you didn't get treated, that affects me.  You could argue that having insurance isn't a guarantee you would have gone in for treatment anyway, and the proper legal recourse for me would be to sue you for not getting treated (whether you were insured or not).  I'd say in an idealized world that's true, but it's not very practical, especially if I'm dead by then.

I'd compare it to police or fire protection.  If you could opt out of fire protection, the fire department wouldn't be likely to stand by and watch you burn alive.  But even if they were willing to do that, their letting your house burn down still exposes all your neighbors to increased danger, thus increased their costs for their fire protection, in comparison to if you had fire protection so they could put out a small fire before it became a danger to everyone around you. 


Plus, you're freeloading off of all your neighbors, because when they pay for fire protection, that means if their houses catch on fire, the fires are more likely to be put out before they become a danger to you or your property.  Thus you get a safety benefit of fire protection without paying for it.  That goes back to all your neighbors with health insurance getting their contagious diseases caught early and treated, so you get the benefit of their buying insurance without paying for any yourself.



« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 03:42:55 PM by pdxmike »

Tom

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1107 on: March 23, 2017, 03:40:54 PM »
Why should there be a guarantee to access of education in the US?

I see access to health care as important as access to education. I don't have kids, why are my taxes going to pay for other children's education when they really don't appreciate it and don't do their homework.

Simple, there are positive externalities for the greater good that come from education. I'm sure your life is made better by the fact that we are a largely educated society. Educated societies are safer, cleaner, and more prosperous.

Why are we mandated to have car insurance? Same reason - in cars there are externalities. It is not always a single car accident.

What does my purchase of health insurance do to you? Nothing. If I don't purchase it? Nothing.

Your argument that access to healthcare is equal to access to education is pretty much how we get to the single payer - socialized option. Which would be likely better than the in-between we have now. I don't like it because profit drives innovation, and when we can make things better we should.

Healthy societies are safer, cleaner, and more prosperous.

 Whether you chose to not stay healthy doesn't bother me, but you should be able to make the decision that if you want to be healthy, you have the option. Just as someone that wants to be educated should have that option. If he decides to not get educated,that's his problem, but he should have the option regardless of his current economic status.

My argument that access to healthcare is equal to access to education is pretty much how we get to the single payer - socialized option. And I see no problem there. Does government provided education go against an anti-socialism doctrine?


PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1108 on: March 23, 2017, 03:46:20 PM »
We'd be a lot better off without all the buckets.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1109 on: March 23, 2017, 04:40:48 PM »
For sure, managing the buckets is not only a financial load, but there is no productivity to it. (As in no economic value added to the process)

 


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