Author Topic: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]  (Read 344496 times)

stoneaxe

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #960 on: March 15, 2017, 09:01:42 AM »
Just wondering seeing the pictures....did you ever win a game of pool on that table?

Many. I pick my opponents carefully. Are you bragging about your misspent youth again?

Well since it's about the only thing I do better than you....yes.... ;D
Bob

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surf4food

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #961 on: March 15, 2017, 09:07:35 AM »
PonyBill, it's clear that you are getting most of your information about Muslims from books rather than day-to-day relationships with Muslims. I think your impressions would be very different if it was the other way round.

Extremist religious fundamentalism is as much a tragedy for most Muslims as for anyone else, just as nazism was a tragedy for most Germans as well as the rest of the world. The Dalai Lama is correct in my view: violent oppressive religious fundamentalism has nothing to do with the true tenets of mainstream religion. You wouldn't characterise the nature of Christians or Christianity by citing the crusades, So it makes little sense IMO to do the equivalent with Islam. It just sounds like prejudice spawned through lack of personal experience to me. If you really want to know about Islam, maybe widen your circle of friends a bit? I would think that some of what you have said here would seem pretty offensive to many Muslims who are our allies in this fight against fundamentalist fascism.

By the way, I wonder if the US (and Europe) would be a nicer place to live if Christianity had the same emphasis on charitable giving as Islam does:

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/46/third-pillar-of-islam

Not most--exclusively. Absent the availability of any Muslims to befriend there isn't much I can do about that. But then, once again, I wasn't talking about individual Muslims, or the characteristics of people. I was talking about history and the nature of Islam. I don't think anything I wrote is even particularly debatable. If someone took offense to some statement, I'd want to know what parts of what I wrote are not true.

I assure you, I see the warts on every religion as practiced, and Christianity has far more than it's fair share. But as nasty and brutal as the practices of Christianity over the ages, the core of Christianity contains no justification for violence. Islam does--copiously. Do you think that doesn't represent an important distinction?

I think we need more events like this:

Youth Hold 'Meet A Muslim' Events To Encourage People To Learn About Each Other

http://www.npr.org/2017/03/11/519845905/youth-hold-meet-a-muslim-events-to-encourage-people-to-learn-about-each-other



I do not have any close Muslim friends, but was friendly with some that I worked with.  I have traveled in Muslim countries, Morocco, Tunisia, and Indonesia. Of all the countries I've traveled in, I'd say that Tunisians were the most welcoming and hospitable people I've ever met. We were camping in a VW van, and over and over, if a Tunisian saw up camped on some remote beach, they'd come by and insist that we stay at their house as an honored guest. We always declined, but did accept a few diner invitations. This was many years ago, not sure what it is like now.

I don't currently have any close Muslim friends either but have known many over the years (served with many in the Navy) and have also visited several Muslim countries (Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Oman).  I too feel that the people I've met in those countries are probably the warmest and friendliest people in any country I've visited.  The Muslims I've served with in the Navy were dedicated, professional, patriotic. 

Weasels wake

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #962 on: March 15, 2017, 10:22:31 AM »
Boy did I have fun last night, at the expense of somebody else.
So last night Rachael Maddow promises all her sycophant viewers that she's going to serve them up some delicious juicy red meat steak, "I've got Trump's tax returns!" (which in itself may be against the law), and all that her anxious viewers get is an empty fortune cookie!
The more of her I see, the more she looks like, and acts like Dan Rather, and we all know what happened to Dan Rather. Just like Dan, she's trying too hard to reach too far down the rabbit hole.
Rachael Maddow is horrible, but boy was that fun to watch.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 10:24:10 AM by Weasels wake »
It takes a quiver to do that.

Billekrub

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #963 on: March 15, 2017, 02:19:36 PM »
How soon will Trump supporters lose faith in his ability to improve their lives?

Ruth Sagers ----- Ruth Sagers, Pharmacy tech, veterinary nurse, somewhat libertarian
Written Feb 24

One of the staunchest Trump supporters I know was actually working on a Trump building while the election was going on. He loved the job and was deeply impressed by (and openly covetous of) the level of quality and luxury items and materials being installed in this building. My husband and I, who really like this person, discussed our views and passed on as much factual information as we could in the run up to the election. Of course we were hoping he would change his mind. He didn't and voted for Trump. We were sad but duly congratulated him on the victory of his chosen candidate next time we saw him. His reaction was not as jubilant as I expected. In fact he kind of avoided the topic. The next time we saw him he was clearly very bummed about something. After some cajoling he told us what I'm sure many of you have already guessed - Trump sent his inspectors into the building recently. They found a minor example of human error. Trump is using this to sue the company and refusing to pay for any of the work. Our friends and many of his colleagues are now out of a job and the entire company is in jeopardy.

Just to be clear - my husband and I did not rejoice. We did not say “I told you so”. We felt really sad for our friend. He is not a “bad” person at all. He's not “ignorant” exactly. He's just a regular, late middle aged white guy who takes the world as it comes, works hard, doesn't read much, treats his family well and is sharp and intelligent (not in an academic way but it many others). He looked at Trump and saw something he identified with way more than when he looked at Hilary and Obama. He half listened to a few comments and identified with those. He made his political decisions based on extremely personal, circumstantial and emotional factors without thinking too much about the fact he was doing that. And now he feels crushed and embarrassed. I feel furious and sad that my friend who actually gave him a vote has been screwed over. There is a well established pattern of Trump using this behaviour as a tactic to avoid parting with large sums of money (to pay for the goods and services he has bought) and to bully smaller companies in the construction industry. My husband literally joked with him (i.e. warned him about it in a light hearted manner) about this exact issue many months ago.

I know this is very anecdotal but it does link to a larger pattern of behaviour. In both Trump and, I think, many of his voters. Trump is well aware that many people make their political decisions this way. I'm also not saying this is how all Trump supporters made their decision. Just that it's something I've observed many times. I believe Trump will continue to do things, in a personal and political arena, that directly damage hundreds of thousands of people. Many of them will be his own supporters. It's what personality disordered, toxic people do. They damage the people around them, especially those close to them. And “damage” is a many headed monster. Corrupting someone's sense of ethics and morality for your own gain and then materially rewarding them for that is damaging them.

One last point - losing faith is one thing. What people do with that loss of faith is quite another. Sadly, many adults have an almost pathological problem with admitting they were wrong or are disappointed in something they put a lot of faith and belief into. It puts too many aspects of their weltanschauung into jeopardy and threatens their sense of self. So often they will just become quiet and bitter about it. They will withdraw and avoid further information and discussion. This is greatly exacerbated by people smugly gloating about it. Please don't do that to disgruntled Trump supporters. Be better (than that attitude - not than them!). Be supportive. Encourage their ability to change their minds based on information and data and what they intrinsically know makes someone not a good person. Most humans in a vulnerable state such as I am describing are very keen to latch onto anything that will once again restore the status quo/ideas they are so disappointed in because that is much less threatening to the self. Someone from a differing political camp just laughing in their face will give them a great excuse to not only do this, but become more militant about it. Rejoice in their growing ability to think critically and celebrate that.

Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #964 on: March 15, 2017, 03:10:46 PM »
Ruth Sagers ----- Ruth Sagers, Pharmacy tech, veterinary nurse, somewhat libertarian
Written Feb 24
He's not “ignorant” exactly.

What a pretentious and arrogant statement.

For someone who has never been involved in a commercial litigation, Ruth's story might have some effect.  But for those that have, her story is thin and her assessment of cause and effect just don't add up.   

She also uses the British variant of behavior (behaviour) which leads me to suspect that the story is just total fiction.

PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #965 on: March 15, 2017, 04:03:00 PM »
Stories of Trump stiffing his suppliers and contractors have been floated before. In the previous cases they concerned suppliers caught up in a bankruptcy, though the stories carefully avoided disclosing that.  Anyone who have been involved in a bankruptcy knows the bankrupt party has no control over who gets paid and how much. In fact, any supplier who was paid for a relatively long period prior to the declaration (I think it's 90 days) can and generally will have the payment retracted by the court. I came within a few days of having a seven figure sum extracted from our company when a dotcom named "SmartAge" went bust.

I read the post, and had the same sense as Bean--if I had a "friend" like her it wouldn't be for long. Arrogant twit.
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lucabrasi

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #966 on: March 15, 2017, 05:17:30 PM »
Yesterday or today I think.
I got to like Biden actually.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrIOJPxt5ng

Bam.
Two pages.
C'mon.
Yeah, yeah.............24%.
I wondered if that was what they were after the whole time?
Bunch of dummys.
The 155 divisions of Trump widgets with each widget bringing in.....$really, really, lots, of, money.
I wonder how complicated all that is?
I wonder if there is good stuff there?


She also uses the British variant of behavior (behaviour) which leads me to suspect that the story is just total fiction.
but....I like it when I hear "behavior" in a Brit tongue....


deepmud

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #967 on: March 15, 2017, 09:05:04 PM »
****EDITED******

Not most--exclusively. Absent the availability of any Muslims to befriend there isn't much I can do about that. But then, once again, I wasn't talking about individual Muslims, or the characteristics of people. I was talking about history and the nature of Islam. I don't think anything I wrote is even particularly debatable. If someone took offense to some statement, I'd want to know what parts of what I wrote are not true.



Nope. Not quite.

This is what you said.
I understand it's unpopular to talk about Muslims as if they were the enemy. But read some Asian/mid east history before you judge that. You don't need to pick any particular period--any stretch of a couple hundred years will do. It's not a religion of tolerance or forgiveness.

This is the crux of it.

"Muslims as if there were the enemy"

Modern Muslims. ALL OF THEM. 1.6 Billion. It's bullshit.  The more you say "cause I read all the books" the more it scares me.

Especially because I know you ARE intelligent, well read. I'm used to dummies saying they know how the Koran is written....here I took a minute, found a stupid meme:


and I have NO DOUBT those words were and ARE used by evil men to justify evil things.

But it doesn't make it ok saying "Muslims are the enemy". Not all your history, not all your books stand up to my friend Juma Attid from Afghanistan, and millions like him here in the U.S. and all over the world. Not even the horror of honor killings and murder and terror done in the name of Islam or whatever the excuse is.


It's an important distinction.

I'd never get my idiot coworker to understand but I know you aren't stupid - otherwise I'd not give a shit.


PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #968 on: March 15, 2017, 09:29:46 PM »
Wow, not even a complete sentence. You had to clip one apart to find "the crux of it". Sentences represent a complete thought. Pulling one of mine apart is how you say what YOU want it to say. And that IS bullshit.

Here are the sentences:
"I understand it's unpopular to talk about Muslims as if they were the enemy." Yes? No?

"But read some Asian/mid east history before you judge that."  A recommendation, not a conclusion.

"You don't need to pick any particular period--any stretch of a couple hundred years will do." Again, not a conclusion.

"It's not a religion of tolerance or forgiveness."  Yes? No?

However you decide to reinterpret what I write, what I was talking about is history and the nature of Islam as a religion. I clarified that, you choose to ignore it. If you want to twist it your own way, that's your problem. It has nothing to do with what I was writing about, and nothing to do with who I am.
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deepmud

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #969 on: March 15, 2017, 10:23:46 PM »
You stated it's unpopular to say Muslims are the enemy - then defend it in the same paragrah....

I took it as "Muslims are the Enemy - it's unpopular, but I'm saying it, and here is why"... I

It's a conclusion that is hard to escape but ...

You still aren't clear I guess.

I didn't even respond to the question is it a religion of religious tolerance.

are you, or are you not, labeling all Muslims "the Enemy".  I thought I understood what you said - and everything I've been responding with has been about this as a statement.

I'm sorry it seemed like I was editing your words - I thought I was clarifying what you had said, not misdirecting the meaning.

At least you seem to know what I'm responding to. I must not have been clear enough when I said  you can't label all 1.6 Billion Muslims like that -- I really thought it was exactly what you said.





PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #970 on: March 15, 2017, 10:51:50 PM »
Nope. I think all religions as interpreted by men have dangerous ideas. I think Islam has a particularly violent aspect to it--in fact I know it does. That's pretty much it.

Let me give you an example of how this concern plays out. What do you suppose would happen if/when Iran gets nuclear weapons? I suspect you think they would use them--pretty quickly. I do. In this example my concern is not with Muslims having nuclear weapons--Pakistan already does. If you can see the difference in the level of concern then I would say you are in alignment with my thinking. Iran's government is more theological than Pakistan's--but how much?. I wouldn't call them terrorists. What would you call them, and how would you characterize a greater concern for them having the power to destroy cities? Your city.

Is it because they are Muslim? Because they are more Muslim? Because they believe more literally in what the Quran says?

It's not a simple thing. It's not simply saying that Muslims are the enemy--clearly, they are not. And it's not simply saying we are wrong to have concerns about the effect of a theocracy based on Islam.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 11:13:15 PM by PonoBill »
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yugi

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #971 on: March 16, 2017, 01:30:05 AM »
"It's not a religion of tolerance or forgiveness."  Yes? No?

I would say it is a religion of tolerance and forgiveness. Without a shadow of a doubt.

The basis of all religions is tolerance and forgiveness. I’m no student of religions but the genuine people I have met from all of them and exchanged any ideas about their religions all have this in common. Plus I’ll just take the Dalai Lama’s word on this. I believe him when he says he has studied them.   

I have travelled muslim lands and tolerant and forgiving is a very accurate and succinct description of the peoples you will meet there. Travel yourself and see. Ask anyone who has.

I would like to read Olivier Weber's novel Massoud's Confession.  I believe this is exactly what this book is about. Too bad it’s only on paper. Thanks for reminding me to read it anyway.



We should have listened to him!

His quote, by the way, is a reference to the rise of radical interpretation by the Taliban and Al Quaida. Which most muslims denounce as well.

I recommend reading up on him would be a good place to start. I remember his appeal to the West and his warning when he came to the EU. I remember the feeling I had the day news came out he was killed. What a terrible thing was happening. I felt it was bigger than just him. Little did I know how terrible it was going to be the next day.

Sadly, it is exactly tolerance, which died those events. It is since then, and the hate that has arisen since those attacks that there is a growing intolerance. On both sides.

Truth is the first casualty of war.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 01:34:07 AM by yugi »

NEplay

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #972 on: March 16, 2017, 03:39:45 AM »
I am friends and have done business with Bobby Bendetson the Cabot House Furniture owner(well known in Massachusetts USA) and Ethan Allen in New England. Bobby is a Republican, Tufts Trustee, not a fan of Duval Patrick (former Massachusetts Governor) and Trump stiffed Bobby him straight up, and Bobby is about as fucking far from bankruptcy as one can get.
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PDLSFR

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #973 on: March 16, 2017, 06:23:17 AM »
Took me some time to read this entire thread and I have to be honest I've read some serious bullshit being spewed out by some folks, some total lies and utterly idiotic responses. Those of you that know its you please don't take personal offense but you know who you are.

That's all I have, but like Stoney said, how about we keep it real and civil, the Zone was supposed to be a place for fun and community.   
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PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #974 on: March 16, 2017, 07:30:23 AM »
I am friends and have done business with Bobby Bendetson the Cabot House Furniture owner(well known in Massachusetts USA) and Ethan Allen in New England. Bobby is a Republican, Tufts Trustee, not a fan of Duval Patrick (former Massachusetts Governor) and Trump stiffed Bobby him straight up, and Bobby is about as fucking far from bankruptcy as one can get.

It's no surprise to me that he would stiff someone. I think the guy is a lousy businessman and a poor excuse for a human being.

But it's not the people who are stiffed that are restricted by the bankruptcy court--it's Trump co. He's been bankrupted several times. I don't doubt that Trump stiffs people out of bankruptcy, but the articles I read previously were as I described. The problem with so much nonsense in the news is that it's impossible to separate real from bullshit.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 08:31:27 AM by PonoBill »
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