Author Topic: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]  (Read 344593 times)

lucabrasi

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #945 on: March 14, 2017, 03:32:54 PM »
........ If you watched that video you heard the story of an atheist Muslim.......
Is that like a Mexican Jew? Nigerian Buddhist? Hmmm, an atheist Muslim, a preacher, and a rabbi walk into a bar........
;)
Boy, Penn has lost some weight, huh. He's such an interesting guy.
I wonder what Teller thinks?





SUP Leave

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #946 on: March 14, 2017, 04:20:09 PM »
This thread is taking yet another interesting direction.

I guess what we are talking about now is the term "Islamic Terrorism", GWJr used this term, Obama would barely utter the word "terrorism" let alone the Islamic kind, and now Trump has been saying it. Big scary words to a lot of people.

It is nonsense to me that the words Islamic Terrorism carry any more weight than White Supremacist, or Mexican Cartel. All 3 are descriptions of criminals and all 3 have made America unsafe. Liberal media would have you believe that the term "Islamic Terrorism" creates Islamaphobia - but it is actually the terrorism itself that creates it. The deed that goes with the word. Whether or not a politician calls the crime by the descriptor or not does not matter to the fact of the case.

Two things can be true at once, examples:

All religions are peaceful , and radicalized Muslims are dangerous.

Most Islamic Terrorists have come from the middle east, and most of the immigrants from the middle east are peaceful and have assimilated safely into our country.

The governments job is to protect Americans, and peaceful immigrants are unfairly targeted.

I agree that the fix has to be partially borne from peaceful Muslims, which begins (IMO) with patriotic assimilation. The belief in the people who immigrate here that our country is one of the best and free-est in the world and it is a privilege to be here. I know this is true of most  immigrants, it is probably less true of people born and educated here due to our current media and education.

America (Western Civilization) one of the most religiously tolerant countries in the world. Immigrants are an important part of our society and culture. Our constitution was set up to welcome them including whatever religion came with them, but recently our education system and media have bastardized or lost the point on cultural assimilation. We teach now that because of your background or religion you may have different advantages and legal class protection statuses, instead of being equal in the eyes of the law. While prejudice in individuals exists - it is overstated by our education and media to a large degree . Penn touches on this in the video above. 99% of people are good, and that should be where you start.

PBill covers it pretty well too, if we allow entire cultural communities to isolate/insulate themselves then we end up with a multi-cultural society in a bad way. We want a country that is safe for everyone - cultural isolation creates us versus them.

I feel like Obama did nothing to unite the different cultures in our country patriotically (just the opposite) - and that was a shame. Now, with Trump there is no chance as the Media has their list of "ists" for everything associated with him, and he has not done a good job of proving them otherwise.



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deepmud

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #947 on: March 14, 2017, 04:28:42 PM »
This thread is taking yet another interesting direction.

I guess what we are talking about now is the term "Islamic Terrorism", GWJr used this term, Obama would barely utter the word "terrorism" let alone the Islamic kind, and now Trump has been saying it. Big scary words to a lot of people.

It is nonsense to me that the words Islamic Terrorism carry any more weight than White Supremacist, or Mexican Cartel. All 3 are descriptions of criminals and all 3 have made America unsafe. Liberal media would have you believe that the term "Islamic Terrorism" creates Islamaphobia - but it is actually the terrorism itself that creates it. The deed that goes with the word. Whether or not a politician calls the crime by the descriptor or not does not matter to the fact of the case.

The Islamic Terrorism thing wasn't about the scariness of the word  - it was /is not about Islamaphobia. It's about the way the rhetoric is applied to the those Muslims who are teetering towards what Bill was talking about - towards being violent, towards seeing things as "the Devil America" vs "Holy Islam" . PonoBill is correct in that there are many Muslims who see things in a way that will lead them to be violent. These people are more easily pushed to action when they see us as "acting just like they did in history" - again like Bill was saying but applied to us.

Weasels wake

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #948 on: March 14, 2017, 04:44:20 PM »
I keep going back to the notion that not all Islamists are terrorists, but most all terrorists are Islamists.
So to me that does bring some justification to the notion of Islamophobia.
It also brings me to the notion that it's only good Muslims that can bring an end to Islamophobia.  Unfortunately, so far they are doing a terrible job of it.  If they can't stick up for their own religion, is it incumbent for others to do it for them?
Therein lies the "crux of the biscuit".  F. Zappa   
It takes a quiver to do that.

surf4food

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #949 on: March 14, 2017, 06:27:21 PM »
I think we have a problem with no solution.  Yes the majority of Muslims do not support terrorism and have no involvement with it and yes most terrorists are Muslims from the Middle East (or of Middle Eastern decent).   So what do we do?  It's morally and ethically wrong to profile Muslims of Middle Eastern decent who happen to be Americans.  It is also morally and ethically wrong to target Middle Eastern people who are here legally with visas.  And it is also morally and ethically wrong to let actual terrorists slip in.  What ever we do or don't do there's going to be consequences that we have to be willing to face. 

People ask why more moderate Muslims don't speak out.  Here is a good article from a couple years ago: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/02/why-dont-more-moderate-muslims-denounce-extremism/?utm_term=.c66b45686664
 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 06:34:36 PM by surf4food »

PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #950 on: March 14, 2017, 06:58:07 PM »
I was looking around for pictures of my old library--writing about it made me want to see it again. This is from the house we built in Portland. The library was a great room to hang out in. No particular reason to post this here except I wrote about it:






And then there was the secret door that led to the winecellar and my shop:


Great house, fun to live there, but we like our little place here in Hood river even more.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 07:01:24 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Weasels wake

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #951 on: March 14, 2017, 07:03:19 PM »
Definitely wood porn! 
Envy.

Scotch room behind the secret door?
It takes a quiver to do that.

PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #952 on: March 14, 2017, 07:06:09 PM »
Actually, the first picture shows the bar, but there was an adequate supply in the wine cellar in case of invasion.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Area 10

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #953 on: March 14, 2017, 11:27:11 PM »
PonyBill, it's clear that you are getting most of your information about Muslims from books rather than day-to-day relationships with Muslims. I think your impressions would be very different if it was the other way round.

Extremist religious fundamentalism is as much a tragedy for most Muslims as for anyone else, just as nazism was a tragedy for most Germans as well as the rest of the world. The Dalai Lama is correct in my view: violent oppressive religious fundamentalism has nothing to do with the true tenets of mainstream religion. You wouldn't characterise the nature of Christians or Christianity by citing the crusades, So it makes little sense IMO to do the equivalent with Islam. It just sounds like prejudice spawned through lack of personal experience to me. If you really want to know about Islam, maybe widen your circle of friends a bit? I would think that some of what you have said here would seem pretty offensive to many Muslims who are our allies in this fight against fundamentalist fascism.

By the way, I wonder if the US (and Europe) would be a nicer place to live if Christianity had the same emphasis on charitable giving as Islam does:

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/46/third-pillar-of-islam
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 11:47:44 PM by Area 10 »

stoneaxe

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #954 on: March 15, 2017, 04:44:18 AM »
Just wondering seeing the pictures....did you ever win a game of pool on that table?
Bob

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johnysmoke

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #955 on: March 15, 2017, 07:01:51 AM »
Could be something as strange as having lead in the fuel.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27067615
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Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #956 on: March 15, 2017, 07:07:29 AM »
No secret, this thread is the "shitshow", at least now we can blame it on lead additives. ;D

PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #957 on: March 15, 2017, 08:16:55 AM »
PonyBill, it's clear that you are getting most of your information about Muslims from books rather than day-to-day relationships with Muslims. I think your impressions would be very different if it was the other way round.

Extremist religious fundamentalism is as much a tragedy for most Muslims as for anyone else, just as nazism was a tragedy for most Germans as well as the rest of the world. The Dalai Lama is correct in my view: violent oppressive religious fundamentalism has nothing to do with the true tenets of mainstream religion. You wouldn't characterise the nature of Christians or Christianity by citing the crusades, So it makes little sense IMO to do the equivalent with Islam. It just sounds like prejudice spawned through lack of personal experience to me. If you really want to know about Islam, maybe widen your circle of friends a bit? I would think that some of what you have said here would seem pretty offensive to many Muslims who are our allies in this fight against fundamentalist fascism.

By the way, I wonder if the US (and Europe) would be a nicer place to live if Christianity had the same emphasis on charitable giving as Islam does:

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/46/third-pillar-of-islam

Not most--exclusively. Absent the availability of any Muslims to befriend there isn't much I can do about that. But then, once again, I wasn't talking about individual Muslims, or the characteristics of people. I was talking about history and the nature of Islam. I don't think anything I wrote is even particularly debatable. If someone took offense to some statement, I'd want to know what parts of what I wrote are not true.

I assure you, I see the warts on every religion as practiced, and Christianity has far more than it's fair share. But as nasty and brutal as the practices of Christianity over the ages, the core of Christianity contains no justification for violence. Islam does--copiously. Do you think that doesn't represent an important distinction?
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #958 on: March 15, 2017, 08:18:18 AM »
Just wondering seeing the pictures....did you ever win a game of pool on that table?

Many. I pick my opponents carefully. Are you bragging about your misspent youth again?
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Tom

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #959 on: March 15, 2017, 08:33:52 AM »
PonyBill, it's clear that you are getting most of your information about Muslims from books rather than day-to-day relationships with Muslims. I think your impressions would be very different if it was the other way round.

Extremist religious fundamentalism is as much a tragedy for most Muslims as for anyone else, just as nazism was a tragedy for most Germans as well as the rest of the world. The Dalai Lama is correct in my view: violent oppressive religious fundamentalism has nothing to do with the true tenets of mainstream religion. You wouldn't characterise the nature of Christians or Christianity by citing the crusades, So it makes little sense IMO to do the equivalent with Islam. It just sounds like prejudice spawned through lack of personal experience to me. If you really want to know about Islam, maybe widen your circle of friends a bit? I would think that some of what you have said here would seem pretty offensive to many Muslims who are our allies in this fight against fundamentalist fascism.

By the way, I wonder if the US (and Europe) would be a nicer place to live if Christianity had the same emphasis on charitable giving as Islam does:

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/46/third-pillar-of-islam

Not most--exclusively. Absent the availability of any Muslims to befriend there isn't much I can do about that. But then, once again, I wasn't talking about individual Muslims, or the characteristics of people. I was talking about history and the nature of Islam. I don't think anything I wrote is even particularly debatable. If someone took offense to some statement, I'd want to know what parts of what I wrote are not true.

I assure you, I see the warts on every religion as practiced, and Christianity has far more than it's fair share. But as nasty and brutal as the practices of Christianity over the ages, the core of Christianity contains no justification for violence. Islam does--copiously. Do you think that doesn't represent an important distinction?

I think we need more events like this:

Youth Hold 'Meet A Muslim' Events To Encourage People To Learn About Each Other

http://www.npr.org/2017/03/11/519845905/youth-hold-meet-a-muslim-events-to-encourage-people-to-learn-about-each-other



I do not have any close Muslim friends, but was friendly with some that I worked with.  I have traveled in Muslim countries, Morocco, Tunisia, and Indonesia. Of all the countries I've traveled in, I'd say that Tunisians were the most welcoming and hospitable people I've ever met. We were camping in a VW van, and over and over, if a Tunisian saw up camped on some remote beach, they'd come by and insist that we stay at their house as an honored guest. We always declined, but did accept a few diner invitations. This was many years ago, not sure what it is like now.

 


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