Author Topic: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]  (Read 344575 times)

Tom

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #570 on: February 20, 2017, 12:52:30 PM »
Quote
There is also a petition in support of Trump's visit. It has received around 200k signatures.

How many of those signatures are there just so they can see the damn shitshow?

Wanting to see Trump allowed into the country should not be confused with support of him as POTUS.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 12:54:05 PM by Tom »

Area 10

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #571 on: February 20, 2017, 02:28:14 PM »
Quote
There is also a petition in support of Trump's visit. It has received around 200k signatures.

How many of those signatures are there just so they can see the damn shitshow?

Wanting to see Trump allowed into the country should not be confused with support of him as POTUS.
I couldn't agree more. For some it's a free speech issue: no matter how much they dislike Trump they still think he should be allowed to speak. And for others, you are probably right, they just want the whole Kardashian-like circus, and perhaps even a chance to throw an egg or two. Or sit back with some popcorn and watch the riots live on TV, laughing.

I know some guys here who voted for Brexit, and would probably have been sympathetic to the whole isolationist populist Trump thing if they were US citizens. So I asked them about their views about Trump. A typical answer: "he's a total tit". So as I said before I think Trump himself (rather than the move towards populism) is a peculiarly US thing. He's a bit of a freak occurrence after all - as I understand it, the GOP didn't really even want him, he isn't a traditional Republican, and you've gotta wonder whether if the Democrats had fielded a candidate for change -pretty much any candidate - rather than HC, Trump would now be Prez.

pdxmike

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #572 on: February 20, 2017, 02:47:23 PM »
One thing about the electoral system is that, by allowing someone with fewer popular votes to win, it almost guarantees protests. After all, even if the protests aren't about the candidate with fewer votes winning, the system has created a situation where most voters chose someone else, meaning lots of potential protesters, and lots of people unhappy with what the president is doing, since most people voted for another candidate with another platform.  Without the electoral system, most voters would have voted for the winner, so most would be happier with what the winner was doing.


I'm not arguing for or against the electoral college, or saying that's a main reason for the protests or the number of protesters, but it's at least a contributing factor. And there's at least the potential for a election where a lot more than 3 or 4 million people voted for the loser.

PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #573 on: February 20, 2017, 02:57:31 PM »
Not really. Lots of recent presidents didn't win the popular vote. Even if the vote was 50/50, half the voters would have voted for the other side. Roughly 58 percent of the registered voters actually voted in the current election--90 million people who could vote, didn't. Far beyond the leveling nature of the electoral college, you can come up with any number of scenarios where someone else would have won. Two or three million "popular" votes difference is piddly. If all 90 million had voted for me, as they promised, then I'd be president and the country would be on vacation, learning to surf and perfecting their stroke.
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PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #574 on: February 20, 2017, 03:01:34 PM »
A10...I'm confused....nobody in Britain or Europe supports Trump? Brexit? The rise of LePen and populism in general in Europe? Those folks don't or wouldn't support Trump?
Here's an interactive map showing the proportion of the UK population who have signed the petition to stop the proposed Trump state visit to the UK (it is being debated in parliament).

This has so far received the second largest number of signatures of any petition since these online petitions began. It is interesting to note that, as % of the population, how widespread across the U.K. the signaturies are, and also how unpopular Trump is in Scotland, despite (or perhaps because of?) his much-proclaimed Scottish heritage, and golf course up there.

http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=171928

Approx 1.8 million people have signed this petition so far.

There is also a petition in support of Trump's visit. It has received around 200k signatures. But it has been going a shorter period of time, and the rate of signatures it is getting is currently similar to, or greater than, the anti-Trump ones. People are voting substantially because they see this as a feeedom of speech issue, according to the vox pops. The pro-Trump petition was the idea of one of these people, and his 13-yr old daughter actually created it.

However in *all* areas the number of people signing the anti-visit petition is still higher than those signing the pro-visit petition. So there isn't a difference in support on this issue in different regions of the UK like we'd see on most issues, or with voting for political parties (where the UK is divided along left wing-right wing lines as the US is).

***snore*** What? Oh, is there some other pointless stupid thing going on? A petition? cool. I'll sign both.
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SeldomScene

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #575 on: February 20, 2017, 03:04:43 PM »
One thing about the electoral system is that, by allowing someone with fewer popular votes to win, it almost guarantees protests. After all, even if the protests aren't about the candidate with fewer votes winning, the system has created a situation where most voters chose someone else, meaning lots of potential protesters, and lots of people unhappy with what the president is doing, since most people voted for another candidate with another platform.  Without the electoral system, most voters would have voted for the winner, so most would be happier with what the winner was doing.


I'm not arguing for or against the electoral college, or saying that's a main reason for the protests or the number of protesters, but it's at least a contributing factor. And there's at least the potential for a election where a lot more than 3 or 4 million people voted for the loser.

I don't recall any Republicans protesting when Bill Clinton was elected with 43 per cent of the popular vote.  Demanding a runoff, for example.  In fact, I don't remember Republicans protesting anything.  Too busy working, I guess.

The whole thing about Trump and his rallies, as well as his orders for the border "wall", deportations, etc., are all for one reason only.  He feels it necessary to do what he said he would do if elected.  The rallies take him straight to those people who elected him, bypassing the media.  He may be nutty, but he is keeping his word. 

Weasels wake

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #576 on: February 20, 2017, 03:29:03 PM »
Area 10, just wondering, do you post this many long opinions about your own country's government in your own country, Brexit as an example, or is it just us who gets to know what's on your mind.
It takes a quiver to do that.

Quickbeam

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #577 on: February 20, 2017, 04:16:08 PM »
I don't recall any Republicans protesting when Bill Clinton was elected with 43 per cent of the popular vote.  Demanding a runoff, for example.  In fact, I don't remember Republicans protesting anything. 

Maybe not, but I remember one person protesting on Twitter when it at first looked like Obama was going to get in on his second term with the electoral college vote, and lose the popular vote. And that was Trump. I believe his tweet said “We need a revolution in this country”. At least words to that effect. And then of course Obama did win the popular vote, and Trump deleted his Tweet.

And now of course Trump supports the electoral college. Surprise, surprise!
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PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #578 on: February 20, 2017, 04:44:21 PM »
This has to be close to the most pointless argument possible.  Maybe we could toss in some alternate universes and time travel.

Blame PDX. He brought it up again.
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tautologies

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #580 on: February 20, 2017, 06:29:19 PM »
I don't think the reason why people stay at home is because the electoral system. I think voters feels disenfranchised because they feel almost equally fubared regardless of who is chosen. Now if you look at election patterns in the US incumbents will just not turn out...they are happy with status quo, and can't get into their mind that shit changes if your preferred politicians aren't elected...

Trump won the election much because Koch brothers and Rove has been so incredibly successful in gerrymandering. The weird part is that Rove has been explicit about it: "He who controls redistricting can control Congress" and democrats just stood there like idiots watching him and Koch money change the map.

They have been extremely efficient and well organized.
Then Trump came along and just stole the election from Rove and the GOP.

But saying people shouldn't demonstates is simply ludicrous because it is the right of the people (for the time beeing) to state their minds. Write and call the policitians and dempnstrate. It will help.

PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #581 on: February 20, 2017, 06:56:02 PM »
I do think the US electoral process has been compromised. But I did read the article Yugi linked to. I wonder if anyone else will--or maybe just the title and the last paragraph. The issues the article describes, which are substantially about perception rather than quantifiable problems, has little to do with the significance of the popular vote in the last election.

Tautologies, you can't really be serious in thinking the gerrymandering that has taken place everywhere in the USA is a republican plan or is exclusive to Koch and Rove. "democrats just stood there like idiots watching him and Koch money change the map". Really?

I would agree that republicans were more effective--this time. But historically Gerrymandering has been primarily democrat territory, For the simple reason that it's more effective in democratic strongholds--the urban areas. Neither side wants it stopped because both sides gain PERSONAL benefit. If you represent a gerrymandered district your future is guaranteed.

I grew up in Massachusetts. We Massholes know what Gerrymandering is and who does it.
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pdxmike

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #582 on: February 20, 2017, 08:37:35 PM »
One thing about the electoral system is that, by allowing someone with fewer popular votes to win, it almost guarantees protests. After all, even if the protests aren't about the candidate with fewer votes winning, the system has created a situation where most voters chose someone else, meaning lots of potential protesters, and lots of people unhappy with what the president is doing, since most people voted for another candidate with another platform.  Without the electoral system, most voters would have voted for the winner, so most would be happier with what the winner was doing.


I'm not arguing for or against the electoral college, or saying that's a main reason for the protests or the number of protesters, but it's at least a contributing factor. And there's at least the potential for a election where a lot more than 3 or 4 million people voted for the loser.

I don't recall any Republicans protesting when Bill Clinton was elected with 43 per cent of the popular vote.  Demanding a runoff, for example.  In fact, I don't remember Republicans protesting anything.  Too busy working, I guess.

The whole thing about Trump and his rallies, as well as his orders for the border "wall", deportations, etc., are all for one reason only.  He feels it necessary to do what he said he would do if elected.  The rallies take him straight to those people who elected him, bypassing the media.  He may be nutty, but he is keeping his word.
I'm not sure why anyone would have protested Bill Clinton being elected with 43% of the popular vote, since he easily defeated Bush Sr., who had only 37% of the vote.  So that example is the opposite of what happened this year, and only relevant if you're trying to argue that people don't protest if their candidate gets convincingly beaten in the popular vote.


Also, the "too busy working" spiel--with the implication that this year's anti-Trump protests were populated with people who don't work hard--is tiresome.  This is a list of 100% of people who I know (not cherry-picking to make my point) that I know were at the protests:
--1 college honors student who works while in school
--1 graduate medical student who works while in school
--3 architects
--1 urban planner
--1 retired woman (90 years old, don't know her career, but she grew up working on a farm)
--1 senior Intel engineer
--1 medical researcher/inventor/professor/mathematician with at least one PhD
--1 mathematician (PhD) who runs a charitable trust
--1 elementary school teacher
--1 CFO at a large manufacturing company
--1 National Guardsman home between deployments








tautologies

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #583 on: February 20, 2017, 09:07:51 PM »
Tautologies, you can't really be serious in thinking the gerrymandering that has taken place everywhere in the USA is a republican plan or is exclusive to Koch and Rove. "democrats just stood there like idiots watching him and Koch money change the map". Really?


Nope not everywhere...but it doesn't take much to prove what I am saying...

Do you change your opinion if you find one of the parties involved said: Here is a strategy and plan in 2010? Then the outcome is exactly what that person laid out?

Its not like Rove hid his intentions...he far to vain for that. Democrats did sit and watch the Koch brothers fund the mid-terms because they didn't have the appartus to deal with it...and like idiots because they didn't fight toorh and nail.

 
Rove in 2010:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703862704575099670689398044

Koch funding:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-rove-campaign-20140608-story.html

Gerrymandering impact:

http://www.npr.org/2016/06/15/482150951/understanding-congressional-gerrymandering-its-moneyball-applied-to-politics

..but this shouldn't come as a surprise:
http://billmoyers.com/story/real-way-2016-election-rigged/


Why shouldn't I be serious?

PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #584 on: February 20, 2017, 10:20:07 PM »
I don't need to change my opinion--I agree with you that the republicans fiddled everything since 2010.  I'm pretty sure I remembered to say that.

Yup, just looked.

Interesting articles, I skimmed, I'll have to read them more carefully. I think I already knew most of it, but there might be some tidbits.

My point was simply that none of this fiddling is new. Machine politics in the midwest, Gerrymandering on the east coast. I don't know what they do on the west coast--probably everything. Neither party gets a pass. Democrats invented it--in Massachusetts. But that was back at the turn of the century. Now we have computers and moneyball as an example. And I've been saying for years that Gerrymandering is the primary thing that has damaged the electoral college system--along with the requirement that the electors follow the popular vote in many states.

Needs a rework. We also need term limits and much stricter campaign contribution controls. I'm not holding my breath. Maybe if the protestors organized around some real demands instead of "we don't like the outcome of the election" then something could happen. So far it's looking a lot like the occupy movement. Noise and nothing.
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