Author Topic: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]  (Read 344571 times)

surfafrica

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #255 on: January 31, 2017, 07:16:23 PM »
On Sunday night, tragedy struck in Quebec.  A Canadian university student killed 6 Muslim Canadian men praying in a mosque. 

On Monday, Sean Spicer referred to the shooting at his daily briefing: "It's a terrible reminder of why we must remain vigilant. And why the president is taking steps to be proactive, not reactive."  This seems a bit like reverse logic to me. Why would this tragedy of student radicalized to the far right killing 6 Muslim Canadians support a ban of refugees?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the past 40 years, no Americans have been killed in America by refugees from the countries the Trump administration has banned. Maybe the Trump administration should ban white university students from Canada from entering the country--that group might pose a threat.

As well on Monday afternoon, Fox News tweeted: "Suspect in Quebec mosque terror attack was of Moroccan origin, reports show."  <-- this is not true.  There was a Moroccan man who was a witness and this information was made public before Fox News made their report.  Even if it was an honest timing issue on Fox's part, by late Tuesday, they still had not corrected their statement.

There are a lot of opinions flying around about the Trump administration's ban of refugees.  I'm of the strong opinion that it breeds more hate around the world, will not save lives on American soil and only will stoke the fire for ISIS recruitment.
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PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #256 on: January 31, 2017, 07:38:51 PM »
Of course it's totally ineffective. It's guarding against something that hasn't happened to any significant degree. About 2900 Americans were killed in 911. About 50 Americans have been killed in terror attacks in the US since 2001. Hasn't happened doesn't mean won't happen, but it seems like a pretty low risk so far. 50 people in 16 years is in the same magnitude as shark attacks and is equally sensational. You have to wander very far down the threat ladder to find something similar to worry about.

Terrorist attacks are a lot more common in Western Europe, but the sources of most attacks and deaths are not jihad, it's separatists:

« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 07:41:00 PM by PonoBill »
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PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #257 on: January 31, 2017, 08:14:08 PM »
I looked at Facebook for the first time in about a week. Talk about a shitshow. My favorite was a guy posting about Jihadists and their holly war.

Of course he misspelled Jihad also, as well as about 60 percent of the words in his rant.

It's gonna be a long four years.
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surfafrica

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #258 on: January 31, 2017, 08:15:12 PM »
About 2900 Americans were killed in 911. About 50 Americans have been killed in terror attacks in the US since 2001. Hasn't happened doesn't mean won't happen, but it seems like a pretty low risk so far. 50 people in 16 years is in the same magnitude as shark attacks and is equally sensational. You have to wander very far down the threat ladder to find something similar to worry about.

Of these (911 and the additional attacks since 2001), none were by refugees from the banned countries.  <--that is correct, right? 
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pdxmike

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #259 on: January 31, 2017, 09:20:34 PM »
I looked at Facebook for the first time in about a week. Talk about a shitshow. My favorite was a guy posting about Jihadists and their holly war.

Of course he misspelled Jihad also, as well as about 60 percent of the words in his rant.

It's gonna be a long four years.



stoneaxe

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #260 on: January 31, 2017, 09:29:14 PM »
I'm surprised he spelled USA correctly.....
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tautologies

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #261 on: January 31, 2017, 10:02:15 PM »


Here is an opinion piece that represent some of my concerns:

"Yes, Donald Trump’s politics are incoherent. But those who surround him know just what they want, and his lack of clarity enhances their power."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/30/donald-trump-george-monbiot-misinformation


novaboy

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #262 on: February 01, 2017, 01:52:51 AM »
About 2900 Americans were killed in 911. About 50 Americans have been killed in terror attacks in the US since 2001. Hasn't happened doesn't mean won't happen, but it seems like a pretty low risk so far. 50 people in 16 years is in the same magnitude as shark attacks and is equally sensational. You have to wander very far down the threat ladder to find something similar to worry about.

Of these (911 and the additional attacks since 2001), none were by refugees from the banned countries.  <--that is correct, right?

All of the 9/11 attackers were from Saudi, UAE, Lebanon and Egypt I believe. Countries not on the banned list.
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Tom

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #263 on: February 01, 2017, 09:42:54 AM »
The ban on refugees will do nothing to make the US safer. If you look at how refugees get into the US today, you'll see that they are extremely vetted. First, refugees do not have a choice on which country they will arrive in, it is a lottery. Next, the process take form 18 to 24 months, minimum. Throughout those two years, they have many personal interviews with various US security agencies, CIA, FBI, Homeland Security, etc.

here's some food for thought:

From a Boston College professor of American History, Heather Cox Richardson, about Trump's latest refugee "shock event":
“I don't like to talk about politics on Facebook—political history is my job, after all, and you are my friends—but there is an important non-partisan point to make today.
.
What Bannon is doing, most dramatically with last night's ban on immigration from seven predominantly Muslim countries—is creating what is known as a "shock event." Such an event is unexpected and confusing and throws a society into chaos. People scramble to react to the event, usually along some fault line that those responsible for the event can widen by claiming that they alone know how to restore order. When opponents speak out, the authors of the shock event call them enemies. As society reels and tempers run high, those responsible for the shock event perform a sleight of hand to achieve their real goal, a goal they know to be hugely unpopular, but from which everyone has been distracted as they fight over the initial event. There is no longer concerted opposition to the real goal; opposition divides along the partisan lines established by the shock event.
.
Last night's Executive Order has all the hallmarks of a shock event. It was not reviewed by any governmental agencies or lawyers before it was released, and counterterrorism experts insist they did not ask for it. People charged with enforcing it got no instructions about how to do so. Courts immediately have declared parts of it unconstitutional, but border police in some airports are refusing to stop enforcing it.


 

Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #264 on: February 01, 2017, 10:28:44 AM »
In this case Tom, I think it's important to have the rest of Dr. Richardson's quote:

"....but border police in some airports are refusing to stop enforcing it.

Predictably, chaos has followed and tempers are hot.

My point today is this: unless you are the person setting it up, it is in no one’s interest to play the shock event game. It is designed explicitly to divide people who might otherwise come together so they cannot stand against something its authors think they won’t like. I don’t know what Bannon is up to– although I have some guesses– but because I know Bannon’s ideas well, I am positive that there is not a single person whom I consider a friend on either side of the aisle– and my friends range pretty widely– who will benefit from whatever it is. If the shock event strategy works, though, many of you will blame each other, rather than Bannon, for the fallout. And the country will have been tricked into accepting their real goal.

But because shock events destabilize a society, they can also be used positively. We do not have to respond along old fault lines. We could just as easily reorganize into a different pattern that threatens the people who sparked the event. A successful shock event depends on speed and chaos because it requires knee-jerk reactions so that people divide along established lines. This, for example, is how Confederate leaders railroaded the initial southern states out of the Union. If people realize they are being played, though, they can reach across old lines and reorganize to challenge the leaders who are pulling the strings. This was Lincoln’s strategy when he joined together Whigs, Democrats, Free-Soilers, anti-Nebraska voters, and nativists into the new Republican Party to stand against the Slave Power. Five years before, such a coalition would have been unimaginable. Members of those groups agreed on very little other than that they wanted all Americans to have equal economic opportunity. Once they began to work together to promote a fair economic system, though, they found much common ground. They ended up rededicating the nation to a “government of the people, by the people, and for the people.”

Confederate leaders and Lincoln both knew about the political potential of a shock event. As we are in the midst of one, it seems worth noting that Lincoln seemed to have the better idea about how to use it."


Oh, and don't forget to buy her book, To Make Men Free: A History of the Republican Party.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 10:31:24 AM by Bean »

tautologies

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #265 on: February 01, 2017, 11:26:36 AM »


In other news...yet more hollowing out of the democracy...so after two of Trumps candidates perjured themselves the GOP changes rules so senate democrats do not get to participate in the process, with Trumps engouragement..

For anyone who hasn't been paying attention, Price and Mnuchin perjured themselves and refused to present themselves to the committee to explain.
The Democrats refused to vote until they presented themselves to explain.
They didn't, so apparently, the GOP changed the rules so they could approve the nominees anyway without the Dems even present.
This is the letter the Dems on the Finance Committee sent to Orrin Hatch, asking for more answers from Price and Mnuchin about their false testimony. Orrin Hatch ignored it and changed the rules to rubberstamp them.

If you voted for trump and the GOP and this shit doesn't make you re-think your choices.....
 
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/020117%20FinanceDemlettertoChairmanHatch%20on%20nominations.pdf


Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #266 on: February 01, 2017, 11:32:43 AM »
Well...there you go again.

surfafrica

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #267 on: February 01, 2017, 12:07:17 PM »
If you voted for trump and the GOP and this shit doesn't make you re-think your choices.....

I'm genuinely curious about that.  I know those who didn't support Trump haven't changed their minds since the election to suddenly support him.  I also know there are a lot of people who bought in to Trump's rhetoric during the campaign and are probably psyched to see him pulling the trigger on his promises.  But is there a significant group of people who voted for Trump and are now thinking "oh shit...what have we done"?  If yes, is there any movement to speak out or challenge what is going on from that group, whether that be republicans in gov't or general citizens (meaning are any of that group of citizens starting to show up at demonstrations saying "I changed my mind")? 
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tautologies

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #268 on: February 01, 2017, 12:08:57 PM »

How about this then..direct quotes from Bannon:

In remarks to a 2014 conference at the Vatican, Bannon warned his Christian audience, “We’re at the very beginning stages of a very brutal and bloody conflict.”
“We are in an outright war against jihadists, Islam, Islamic fascism,” Bannon continued. He likewise condemned “the immense secularization of the West” and the increasing secularism among millennials.
Bannon stressed that “the people in this room, and the people in the Church” must “bind together and really form what I feel is an aspect of the Church militant, to really be able to not just stand with our beliefs but to fight for our beliefs against this new barbarity that’s starting that will literally eradicate everything that we’ve been bequeathed over the last 2,000 and 2,500 years.”
In his speech, Bannon articulated a view of the world as a constant conflict between the capitalist “Judeo-Christian West,” which is a benevolent force of “enlightenment,” and the malevolent forces of socialism, atheism, and Islam.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-steve-bannon-china-south-sea-war-chinese-us-president-special-counsellor-a7556546.html

SUP Leave

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #269 on: February 01, 2017, 03:07:34 PM »
If you voted for trump and the GOP and this shit doesn't make you re-think your choices.....

I'm genuinely curious about that.  I know those who didn't support Trump haven't changed their minds since the election to suddenly support him.  I also know there are a lot of people who bought in to Trump's rhetoric during the campaign and are probably psyched to see him pulling the trigger on his promises.  But is there a significant group of people who voted for Trump and are now thinking "oh shit...what have we done"?  If yes, is there any movement to speak out or challenge what is going on from that group, whether that be republicans in gov't or general citizens (meaning are any of that group of citizens starting to show up at demonstrations saying "I changed my mind")?

It is an interesting question, but I think it is too early yet. You have to remember who voted for Trump. In the media's (coastal elites, hollywood's, etcs) eyes he was voted for by a bunch of inbred racists with confederate flags on the wall and Copenhagen rings in their back pocket. The reality is that most of the people who voted for him, voted based on their own personal economic situation. In that vein:

- Reduction in regulations
- Reduction in taxes
- Meetings with labor unions
- TPP and NAFTA
- Dodd Frank


There is plenty of time to regret the decision, but there needs to be a result first (crippled economy, loss of jobs, environmental degradation, troops killed, loss of an ally). All we have so far is noise. The media is way too fatalistic about this stuff (IMO). The reality is that the American Republic has withstood way worse than a temporary ham-handed ban on refugees (there is 1.5 billion other Muslims outside the black balled 7 countries  that are free to get in here) and a wild card adviser (Bannon). Should Trump screw up, he can only do it for 4 years, and he will lose his majority (teeth) in 2.

Give me something tangible, and I can regret my choice about the vote.

I would like to have seen Mnuchin get axed. Betsy DeVoss may not get confirmed either. Sounds like Maine and AK senators may vote "no" on her confirmation. Both of which would be fine by me. I have largely liked his cabinet and SC nom.

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