Author Topic: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]  (Read 344598 times)

Area 10

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #180 on: January 26, 2017, 09:27:39 AM »
So now Trump is advocating the use of torture.

https://youtu.be/Mf_CSvjaKcs

Waterboarding is illegal under domestic and international law.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/waterboarding

ISIS recruiters must be rubbing their hands with glee. All they need to do is put up a picture of Trump and young men will come flooding in with plans to attack the US.

God bless America indeed. Save our Christian faith: waterboarding is what Jesus would do. Isn't it??

Weasels wake

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #181 on: January 26, 2017, 09:57:45 AM »
"ISIS recruiters must be rubbing their hands with glee. All they need to do is put up a picture of Trump and young men will come flooding in with plans to attack the US."

ISIS has never needed a reason like that, or keeping Gitmo open, for them to want to kill all us infidels.  Just us being alive, getting up in the morning, having coffee with maybe even a little bacon is reason enough.  In fact you could eliminate the bacon and they would still want to kill us all.  Don't be foolish.
It takes a quiver to do that.

yugi

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #182 on: January 26, 2017, 10:34:17 AM »
^ No Weasel, they didn't pop out of nowhere. And it certainly has little [real] to do with religion. In fact it's largely muslims who have been victims.

A10 is right. Just perfect propaganda for badguys recruiting. Very counterproductive.
Luckily 'mad dog' Mattis [has at least in the past] said this. In this respect it turns out useful to have a military guy as secretary of defense.

“Torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment is never a morally permissible option, even if lives depend on gaining information,” the US counterinsurgency field manual says. “Lose moral legitimacy, lose the war.”




Area 10

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #183 on: January 26, 2017, 10:37:32 AM »
Weasel - Yugi is right: I wish it was as simple as you suggest, but I'm afraid that that is a naive view. Their principal aim is to unite the Muslim nations, not to destroy you. They need an enemy who acts unreasonably to do this. You are being played.

Be smarter than that. These leaders of ISIS aren't fools, and by portraying them only as homicidal maniacs you risk your own security. This is about hearts and minds. It's politics, and there are wheels within wheels just as there are in Washington. For both Trump and ISIS their foot soldiers are people who aren't able or willing to stop for one minute to consider whether they are being manipulated for someone else's gain.

The biggest threat to US security is overplaying your hand and losing the sympathy of your allies. Our Prime Minister is just about to be the first world leader to meet with Trump. But she is already having to fend off attacks from political opponents for meeting with someone who is a self-confessed sex offender and who advocates breaking international law on battlefield conduct. If Trump keeps making it harder and harder for leaders outside the US to align themselves with him, he is going to find co-operation on matters of intelligence etc drying up. This will impact significantly upon your security. It is in the US's best interests to try to keep its friends around the world. This requires diplomacy and accord, not making life harder for your friends.

Weasels wake

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #184 on: January 26, 2017, 11:09:44 AM »
Using that kind of logic, then you guys should be happy that Hillary didn't get elected, there is nothing worse than a woman being the head of a government, let alone any position of authority.  Talk about a reason to join ISIS!
It takes a quiver to do that.

stoneaxe

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #185 on: January 26, 2017, 12:25:56 PM »
It has nothing to do with religion because Muslims have been victims? You have a group trying to establish a caliphate with laws taken directly from the Koran....it has everything to do with religion.....and power...and yes it's complicated. But these kind people have been at the core of Islam since it's inception. Mohammed would be ISIS...you do realize that the early spread of Islam was through war and terror...or don't you? And their aim isn't just to unite Muslim nations. It's to spread their particularly virulent form of Islam all over.

Some excerpts from a CNN story about what ISIS wants
ISIS makes no secret of its ultimate ambition: A global caliphate secured through a global war. To that end it speaks of "remaining and expanding" its existing hold over much of Iraq and Syria. It aims to replace existing, man-made borders, to overcome what it sees as the Shiite "crescent" that has emerged across the Middle East, to take its war -- Islam's war -- to Europe and America, and ultimately to lead Muslims toward an apocalyptic battle against the "disbelievers."
They also quoted Dabiq...the ISIS magazine "the shade of the blessed flag will expand until it covers all eastern and western extents of the Earth."

Yes the west created this current mess with the carving up of North Africa after WWII. Stupid colonial moves by mostly the British and French...made worse by the US for cheap oil. We get that. But we have to deal with today....what do we do...let a bunch of whack job religious fundamentalists establish a state that has every intent of spreading sharia through the world? I suppose we are simply supposed to show them compassion and let them do what they will? ISIS spreads through terror and war... murders, rapes, enslaves by the 10's of thousands in some of the most horrific ways imaginable but we are supposed to be concerned that someone is going to make them uncomfortable and simulate drowning to get them to talk? A nation state with regular soldiers that fight under the Geneva convention...OK..no torture. For these guys we should get the power tools out just to ask them their names.

The usual hypotheticals...If we have a terrorist that knows where a suitcase nuke is in London or New York or Paris...what...we just ask them nicely where it is? And the other..your child is buried in a box with 3 hours of air...you have the guy who knows where he is....what do you do to find out?. If your answer is torture you're a hypocrite, if it's nothing....let's just say I can't understand that.

A10-I love how you think everyone else's view is naïve or that they are sad wankers because they don't agree with you. Yet you spout off about the latest headline without enough news in it to make an informed opinion....then tell me I'm drinking Kool-Aid....do you even understand what that phrase means? Because you have Kool-Aid stains on your lips, shit it's all over your face, hands, and clothes  and you don't even know it. If the press wasn't doing everything in their power to delegitimize Trump and all the Kool-Aid drinkers on the left would engage in some critical thought there wouldn't be half the hand-wringing going on or out cry from abroad or leaders not meeting. You play passive aggressive and attack anyone as stupid that doesn't agree with you. If weasel is being played by ISIS you're being played by the liberal press.

There is plenty to be concerned about with Trump but just maybe we should see where it goes before we get out the hangman's noose. But I guess the left is used to premature postulation....hey I know! let's give the nobel peace prize to someone who had done (and did) nothing to deserve it. Shit even Obama thought that was weird.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 12:45:03 PM by stoneaxe »
Bob

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Weasels wake

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #186 on: January 26, 2017, 12:32:03 PM »
And one more thing, why on Earth would anyone try to apply humanity to ISIS, ISIS!?!
They are always trying to figure out new more shocking ways to kill their prisoners, they even use their children (bread for terrorism) to do some of the killing, burning alive, very slowly, just for starters and it gets worse from there.
Do you really think they give two wits for waterboarding?  I'm sure they just laugh at the implication.

Now I'm not saying I'm in favor of waterboarding, I've never really made up my mind on that, but I have never bought into the multitude of reasons that people, mostly on the left, say are reasons for ISIS recruitment.  Those intangible reasons always seem to have an element of humanity attached to them.  ISIS doesn't give a fuck about humanity, they are in it for the apocalypse. 
It takes a quiver to do that.

Area 10

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #187 on: January 26, 2017, 12:37:30 PM »
Here's a thought-provoking article on what motivates ISIS, and the way that they intend to go about getting what they want. The trajectory that Trump is plotting, and the general rhetoric he is using, surely seems designed to help them to achieve exactly what they want?

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Here is a quote from this article relevant to what we are discussing here (whether Trump's actions will undermine US security or bolster it):

"The biggest proponent of an American invasion is the Islamic State itself. The provocative videos, in which a black-hooded executioner addresses President Obama by name, are clearly made to draw America into the fight. An invasion would be a huge propaganda victory for jihadists worldwide: irrespective of whether they have given baya’a to the caliph, they all believe that the United States wants to embark on a modern-day Crusade and kill Muslims. Yet another invasion and occupation would confirm that suspicion, and bolster recruitment. Add the incompetence of our previous efforts as occupiers, and we have reason for reluctance. The rise of isis, after all, happened only because our previous occupation created space for Zarqawi and his followers. Who knows the consequences of another botched job?"

lucabrasi

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #188 on: January 26, 2017, 03:03:11 PM »
now here is something for recruiting. Showed up in my email.
I swear......I don't know what I did for it to show up there. Really.
https://donaldcoins.com/trump-half-dollar-coin3
even comes with a little stand and a certificate of authenticity

And if that don't work.....
https://www.amazon.com/Hillary-Clinton-Presidential-Commemorative-Aizics/dp/B01EQGZ0TE
(yeah, I searched that one out...this internet thing is just amazing)

oh my..........as if the entire Western Civilization ain't enough.
Going to have to read that article. I think I still got one to finish from last spring as well....
Yep, ya think Mr. Trump can fuel that recruiting up some? Probably so.
I don't think it matters really all that much....Donald, Hillary, Obama, George.....Brexit, Populist, Fascist, French, English, American......
I think it has everything to do with religion.....maybe not pitting Islam against Christianity ..but do you really call isis or the brotherhood thing a religion? What the hell are they following? Are they really any different than the kkk or (pick something) other than they have twisted the Koran? They are preaching but what is it they are really following? I guess I need to read those articles or something. How does that kind of stuff spread? I think they can ruin the world, I don't think they can take it over tho. It sure has not been spreading because of Donald Trump, he just got here front and center tho it has been spreading because of everything he stands for I guess........I might just be naive tho.
What a world we live in. Can you imagine the brutality of times past? Just amazing........
Rules of war. Really?
".......see, if you go to war with us, we're nice......"

« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 03:16:18 PM by lucabrasi »

stoneaxe

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #189 on: January 28, 2017, 07:46:46 AM »
I was giving more thought to some of this last night. All the outrage about cops rounding up a few journalists caught up in the middle of a riot...some of whose credentials are questionable.  You guys are insinuating that this has been done at the bidding of the new administration... that's just silly. Of course the liberal media where you are getting your info have inflated it to sound that way but I'm having a hard time understanding how people who have shown such intelligence in other posts can't see through the hype.

Where was all this outrage when the Obama admin went after reporters? The self proclaimed "most transparent administration ever" investigated, threatened, surveiled, many journalists when they were doing things they didn't want.....like reporting facts. And they set the record for denying freedom of information requests....very transparent of them. And of course you all believe Hillary's private server was just a matter of convenience and not because she was hiding her dirty deals. The left doesn't seem to remember Obama attacking Fox news and trying to bar them from press briefings, labeling them as an opponent or threatening reporters with jail time. Now they are outraged over Trumps attitude towards the media and acting like the arrest of a few "journalists" in the middle of a riot is a sign of impending doom.

Can't you guys see through this bullshit? You really need to stop getting your info just from sources that are so skewed to the left (and unfortunately that includes many of the major outlets) and spending a little more time thinking critically before forming an opinion.

Like I've said before, I'm no fan of Trump, lot's to dislike about him personally and there is much in his platform I don't agree with but the left lost. Now he gets his turn with the "phone and pen" and gets to push his agenda. That's the way it works. Everybody is screaming about partisanship.....except when they are screaming louder about getting their way..... ::)
Bob

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PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #190 on: January 28, 2017, 08:43:57 AM »
I've read a lot of history of Asia and the Middle East. The history of Islam is particularly violent and political. It was from its very inception. Most of the successors to Mohammad were assasinated.  Yes, there are moderate muslims and secular muslims who don't deserve to be tarred with that brush. And yes, the history of Christianity and other religions is violent, brutal and repressive. But it's generally historical except for a few whack jobs. There's nothing that rises to the level or scope of Wahhabism and the general intent and scope of fundamental Islam. The brutality of sharia law should make that clear to anyone paying attention. The Middle East was the seat of civilization before Islam spread through what we would currently call terror tactics. Now it isn't.

It's easy to point to endless mistakes in western policy toward the Middle East. But it's an incredibly complex and troubled region. Expertise is thin,but it can't simply be ignored. A seventeenth century mentality with access to 21st century tech is incredibly dangerous.

No easy answers. Unfortunately President Trump is unlikely to act with any sort of subtlety or discipline. If his advisors can reign him in the results could be better than previous administrations simply because there would be less likelihood of engagement ending as soon as it becomes politically uncomfortable.  I find it hard to believe that people considered president Obamas policies and actions to be effective and useful in any way.

I think Trump remains a narcissistic child, so everything depends on who he listens to and how he is managed. That's a nerve wracking situation, but it's what we've got. I wish him a successful presidency- because he's our president.
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stoneaxe

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #191 on: January 28, 2017, 10:49:12 AM »
It's such a friggin mess. I don't see any reasonable path out of this. Trump handling of it is troubling for sure. The heavy handed approach no question will piss some off enough to go over the edge but I don't see anyway its going to stop. It simply has to be contained. Sharia law is the test for me. If someone believes in sharia please leave the west. We are trying hard to rid ourselves of the leftover fundamentalism of christianity....we don't need your stupid shit to contend with too....17th century is generous Bill...7th is more like it.
Bob

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yugi

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #192 on: January 28, 2017, 12:32:22 PM »

The Middle East was the seat of civilization before Islam spread through what we would currently call terror tactics.


Funny. I heard that there was a lot of religious tolerance in those events.  We must have different sources.

I would have said “… for the time”, but given what’s happening on the world stage these days, I deleted that part.

I have no dog in any fight. I am deeply non religious. In the organised sense of the word. Sadly I find most of organised religion ends up  reeking of human manipulated power trips. Whatever the original flavour.

I like what this wise human being has to say
   https://youtu.be/tmjzCyCIQjo
   
I can tell you that when you are buried deep under tons of snow, with a few minutes of air left to live with, that you care no longer for which name god has. They all suddenly blend into but one. Kind of like a big wave hold-down but stuck in concrete, way down low.

More people should surf and ski. Peace on earth.

   

pdxmike

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #193 on: January 28, 2017, 01:14:20 PM »
Am I right to assume we probably won't be switching over to metric any time soon?

Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #194 on: January 28, 2017, 02:20:49 PM »
As far as I know, they're already making the switch for hammers, screwdrivers and possibly, hacksaws...

 


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