Author Topic: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]  (Read 344466 times)

mjb1959

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1065 on: March 21, 2017, 07:23:35 PM »
all i can say is... if Gorsuch gets confirmed i'm comfortable with my vote. ;)

the rest is noise that the President, in present day washington, is but a "bit player"... :-[

my suggestion to repair the country is instead of building a wall on the border let's relocate the the DC establishment to the border. that would fix it fast, imo.  8)

mjb1959

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1066 on: March 21, 2017, 08:36:24 PM »
also...
if an investigation has been ongoing since 7-2016... yet
there is no evidence of "surveillance" (wiretap-ish)
exactly what techniques were being used in this "so called investigation" of Trump-russia collusion?

tautologies

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1067 on: March 22, 2017, 02:45:04 AM »
My point exactly Taut--there are plenty of indications, and plenty of threads to follow, but offering a link to the Comey hearing and proferring a quote--unattributed--that turns out to be from a democrat axeman is pure manipulation. You want to make a case, make the case, but persuing the same course as the media, of trying to manipulate the stupid and the lazy is bullshit, and you know it. Germany needs to TRY to meet their obligations? France has to TRY to meet their obligations. Really, sell that somewhere else.

And that Reuters article is hideous.

You want to talk about this stuff on a rational plane, I'm interested, if you just want to convince and you don't care how you do it, then go the fuck ahead. But I won't bother with you anymore.

Yugi, thanks for the apology, I expected better from you and I was surprised not to see it.

Yeah it might have been lazy to quote the democrat talking points, but I wasn't intending it as manipulation. I do not think anyone here seems to be stupid (as it were).

Here is how I see it: We are watching the Russia scandal unfold on a disjointed timeline. We get bits and pieces of the fuller picture in a different order than how it played out in real time.
What is interesting is when the ex MI6 agent came out with his predictions, and how that relates to how Trump and his team. He was hired early 2015 by Trump opponents in the GOP. The the report accurately forecasts how things are currently playing out. I think all these event and actions, could be innocent events by themselves, but when you plot it into a bigger picture, and it follows the prediction, not taking it seriously is also lazy.

Obviously, this is not a done deal, but certainly, something will yield. To me, it depends on how strong the democracy really is. If Trump sits, I am afraid, based on all he is doing and saying that we are in for a rough ride. I'm not at all a weird conspiracy theory guy, but his failure to understand how a democracy works, and his blatant disregard and lack of empathy is hard to accept from a leader.


 

tautologies

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1068 on: March 22, 2017, 02:50:15 AM »
all i can say is... if Gorsuch gets confirmed i'm comfortable with my vote. ;)

the rest is noise that the President, in present day washington, is but a "bit player"... :-[

my suggestion to repair the country is instead of building a wall on the border let's relocate the the DC establishment to the border. that would fix it fast, imo.  8)

One interesting fact is that Bush built a wall...well its more of a fence from a secure the border act... I think Obama voted for it, and kept building for a while...until they found that it doesn't work. All it does is interrupt businesses, destroy properties and disrupt wildlife...so then how on earth someone can imagine spending billions on a wall is just unfathomable.


Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1069 on: March 22, 2017, 08:01:15 AM »
*Joke*
So, I suppose you think the Maginot line was also ineffective? ;D 

*Opinion - totally unsubstantiated, (in-fact if someone else said this, I might refute it)*
Yea, the concept of building the wall is silly, but Trump might manage some concessions in the process.   He does have that, "ask for the moon", mentality.

Area 10

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1070 on: March 22, 2017, 08:10:56 AM »
Breaking news - the British Parliament has been suspended because of a firearms incident outside Parliament in London and on Westminster Bridge. The situation is ongoing so it's not clear at this point exactly what is happening but it looks like a car has been used to mow down at least 5 people on the bridge, and a man stabbed or attacked a policeman outside Parliament, and then someone was shot (probably the attacker) outside parliament. Details are still coming in, but the area around Parliament is shut down and our government is being held inside while security deals with the situation. It is not clear at this point whether the bridge attack and the one outside parliament is part of one incident or two separate ones.

Admin

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1071 on: March 22, 2017, 09:53:23 AM »
And I don't see how anyone can debate that the USA spends a disproportionate amount on NATO. The budget per member is supposed to be 2 percent of GDP. Only the United States, the United Kingdom, Greece, Estonia and Poland contribute that much. So yeah, France, Italy and Germany have underpaid for decades. Nobody bitched when Bernie Sanders made that point--in fact most people cheered, even though the numbers he used we not really defensible. Depending on how you do the math, the US provides between 22 and 75 percent of the cost of NATO, with real numbers being probably more than half but not three quarters. If you look at the cost of increasing operations and boots on the ground since the Ukraine situation (about $900 million), it's a bit more. It's inarguable that NATO is as important to European nations as the US (probably a lot more important). Seems like they should pay their share and/or do their share.

The funny thing about the NATO numbers is what is actually being considered.  The funds paid directly to NATO are relatively tiny.  What is being looked at is each country's spend on its own Military.  This individual military spend is noted as a percentage of its GDP. 

Our military burn is what it is for our own reasons.  Our relative percentage is so high because we have made completely Doofus decisions (Iraq, Apghanistan...) that have cost us Trillions and will continue to.  That and the fact that our Military industrial complex is a self perpetuating behemoth which requires constant feeding in increasing portions.  This makes us unproportionally valuable to who?   
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 10:03:04 AM by Admin »

Weasels wake

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1072 on: March 22, 2017, 10:11:28 AM »
Breaking news - the British Parliament has been suspended because of a firearms incident outside Parliament in London and on Westminster Bridge. The situation is ongoing so it's not clear at this point exactly what is happening but it looks like a car has been used to mow down at least 5 people on the bridge, and a man stabbed or attacked a policeman outside Parliament, and then someone was shot (probably the attacker) outside parliament. Details are still coming in, but the area around Parliament is shut down and our government is being held inside while security deals with the situation. It is not clear at this point whether the bridge attack and the one outside parliament is part of one incident or two separate ones.
On the one year anniversary of the Brussels terror attack, hmm.
It takes a quiver to do that.

PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1073 on: March 22, 2017, 10:44:48 AM »
And I don't see how anyone can debate that the USA spends a disproportionate amount on NATO. The budget per member is supposed to be 2 percent of GDP. Only the United States, the United Kingdom, Greece, Estonia and Poland contribute that much. So yeah, France, Italy and Germany have underpaid for decades. Nobody bitched when Bernie Sanders made that point--in fact most people cheered, even though the numbers he used we not really defensible. Depending on how you do the math, the US provides between 22 and 75 percent of the cost of NATO, with real numbers being probably more than half but not three quarters. If you look at the cost of increasing operations and boots on the ground since the Ukraine situation (about $900 million), it's a bit more. It's inarguable that NATO is as important to European nations as the US (probably a lot more important). Seems like they should pay their share and/or do their share.

The funny thing about the NATO numbers is what is actually being considered.  The funds paid directly to NATO are relatively tiny.  What is being looked at is each country's spend on its own Military.  This individual military spend is noted as a percentage of its GDP. 

Our military burn is what it is for our own reasons.  Our relative percentage is so high because we have made completely Doofus decisions (Iraq, Apghanistan...) that have cost us Trillions and will continue to.  That and the fact that our Military industrial complex is a self perpetuating behemoth which requires constant feeding in increasing portions.  This makes us unproportionally valuable to who?

Yeah, I know, the direct total spend is about two billion. That's why the math is fuzzy and Bernie's 75 percent number wasn't accurate. If you do some digging you can get at some better numbers in terms of what gets actually deployed to Europe in support of NATO and/or represents readiness to defend europe. The number still isn't completely justifiable since a lot of the forward deployed stuff in Europe is in support of middle east and asian intervention. Straightforward deployed costs in europe come to about 60 percent of NATO expenditures. US direct NATO spend is about 22% of the cost.

The most legitimate and easiest number to come up with is that Germany, France and Italy have not met their obligations to NATO. Not for a long time. Either in direct contribution to costs or in readiness of troops and equipment. Good news/bad news. In the face of rising nationalism in Europe, how happy would people be with Germany spending 2% or more of their GDP on arms?

It's nonsense to worry about the cost of NATO in the face of an increase in defense spending on top of an already ludicrous 600 billion. But the sense of what both Bernie Sanders and President Trump maintain--that continental western europe doesn't hold up it's end of the NATO bargain--is correct.

The NATO agreement of 2% GDP is total defense spending. It's worth noting that given the US GDP of 18.56 trillion, our NATO commitment is $371 billion in defense spending--we actually spend 3.3 percent of GDP. Germany spent 1.2 %, about $30 billion short. France actually spent 2.1 percent in 2016--that surprised me. Italy spent 1.3 percent, about 20 billion short.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 11:29:23 AM by PonoBill »
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Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1074 on: March 22, 2017, 10:53:18 AM »
...This makes us unproportionally valuable to who?

Anyone who goes to bed at night wondering whether their part of the world will be annexed by Russia (for instance).


Admin

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1075 on: March 22, 2017, 12:06:28 PM »
...This makes us unproportionally valuable to who?

Anyone who goes to bed at night wondering whether their part of the world will be annexed by Russia (for instance).


We have to spend 13 times what Russia does to feel safe at night?  How bout a teddy bear?

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1076 on: March 22, 2017, 12:27:59 PM »
And I don't see how anyone can debate that the USA spends a disproportionate amount on NATO. The budget per member is supposed to be 2 percent of GDP. Only the United States, the United Kingdom, Greece, Estonia and Poland contribute that much. So yeah, France, Italy and Germany have underpaid for decades. Nobody bitched when Bernie Sanders made that point--in fact most people cheered, even though the numbers he used we not really defensible. Depending on how you do the math, the US provides between 22 and 75 percent of the cost of NATO, with real numbers being probably more than half but not three quarters. If you look at the cost of increasing operations and boots on the ground since the Ukraine situation (about $900 million), it's a bit more. It's inarguable that NATO is as important to European nations as the US (probably a lot more important). Seems like they should pay their share and/or do their share.

The funny thing about the NATO numbers is what is actually being considered.  The funds paid directly to NATO are relatively tiny.  What is being looked at is each country's spend on its own Military.  This individual military spend is noted as a percentage of its GDP. 

Our military burn is what it is for our own reasons.  Our relative percentage is so high because we have made completely Doofus decisions (Iraq, Apghanistan...) that have cost us Trillions and will continue to.  That and the fact that our Military industrial complex is a self perpetuating behemoth which requires constant feeding in increasing portions.  This makes us unproportionally valuable to who?

Yeah, I know, the direct total spend is about two billion. That's why the math is fuzzy and Bernie's 75 percent number wasn't accurate. If you do some digging you can get at some better numbers in terms of what gets actually deployed to Europe in support of NATO and/or represents readiness to defend europe. The number still isn't completely justifiable since a lot of the forward deployed stuff in Europe is in support of middle east and asian intervention. Straightforward deployed costs in europe come to about 60 percent of NATO expenditures. US direct NATO spend is about 22% of the cost.

The most legitimate and easiest number to come up with is that Germany, France and Italy have not met their obligations to NATO. Not for a long time. Either in direct contribution to costs or in readiness of troops and equipment. Good news/bad news. In the face of rising nationalism in Europe, how happy would people be with Germany spending 2% or more of their GDP on arms?

It's nonsense to worry about the cost of NATO in the face of an increase in defense spending on top of an already ludicrous 600 billion. But the sense of what both Bernie Sanders and President Trump maintain--that continental western europe doesn't hold up it's end of the NATO bargain--is correct.

The NATO agreement of 2% GDP is total defense spending. It's worth noting that given the US GDP of 18.56 trillion, our NATO commitment is $371 billion in defense spending--we actually spend 3.3 percent of GDP. Germany spent 1.2 %, about $30 billion short. France actually spent 2.1 percent in 2016--that surprised me. Italy spent 1.3 percent, about 20 billion short.

We are overspending our obligation by 60%.  This has nothing to do with NATO.  We would be doing exactly the same with no NATO.  Trump is aiming to add 54 Billion to that.  Our basic silence over other members not putting 2% of their GDP's into their own military's is that we like it that way.  We have allies, we have the appearance of unity, and we add justification to our already absurd and building burn. 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 04:35:34 PM by Admin »

Bean

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1077 on: March 22, 2017, 01:45:10 PM »
...This makes us unproportionally valuable to who?

Anyone who goes to bed at night wondering whether their part of the world will be annexed by Russia (for instance).


We have to spend 13 times what Russia does to feel safe at night?  How bout a teddy bear?

It's even worse than that, we outspend Russia 13/1, so others can feel safe.  Have we no shame?


PonoBill

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1078 on: March 22, 2017, 01:54:26 PM »
We have to spend 13 times what Russia does to feel safe at night?  How bout a teddy bear?

Pretty sure it's China spending 215 billion (1.9 percent of GDP) that is the current bugaboo--and I bet they get a lot more for their money. Charge those guys $300 for a wrench and they'll charge your family for the bullet.

Still, you won't get an argument from me about money poorly spent, or the absurdity of adding another 8% to a swollen budget that's mostly pork.

Though 596/66=only 9 times what Russia spent in 2016. 13 times would be 863 billion. That would be crazy.

There's good reason to bitch at Germany. They've ducked their responsibility in NATO in every way. From National Interest Magazine:

The end of the Cold War marked shift of hard military power eastward. The British Army is projected to drop from 120,000 in 1990 to just 82,000 in 2020. The French Army has been cut from 236,000 in 1996 to just 119,000 personnel. The most striking cuts have appeared in Germany, where the army has declined from 360,000 in 1990 to 62,000 today.

At the same time, several Asian armies are well north of half a million troops: India, Pakistan, North Korea, South Korea and China. Honorable mention goes to Myanmar, Iran and Vietnam, all of which have armies at least five times larger than Germany’s.


China has 2.3 million active duty, North Korea has 1.3 million, the USA has 1.5 million.

No. I don't generally read National Interest magazine. If you google the article, don't read the comments. It might drive you to walk out into traffic.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 02:22:25 PM by PonoBill »
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mrbig

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Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1079 on: March 22, 2017, 06:53:56 PM »
Kushner..anbang..funny looking building..ROTFLMAO..😜
Let it come to you..
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