Author Topic: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?  (Read 17246 times)

JEG

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2017, 02:48:22 PM »
for my height and weight (5"6" 180lb/82kg) I'm liking the 14' on where paddle flat/bay/ocean and mini/dw/surf.
I'm so use to the 14' that anything 14'+ boards like UL would only one thing a dedicated fast dw board though I heard some prefer skinny UL on the flats too (so many toys to play).

SUPflorida

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2017, 02:59:35 PM »
What I'm questioning in a roundabout way is how close does the a average SUP enthusiast get to hull speed on a typical day on the water where they are not specifically going out to set a personal best or train for a race...

Some good information on this thread pointing to the fact that there are very real diminishing returns to having a longer board unless your pushing pretty hard. Pono I see where you get the 15' number but my on the water experience is not proving it out...at least not for me...at the powers I generate.

 I like to paddle for the better part of the day...sometimes all day...with few if any breaks...thought a longer board would help...it didn't. My average pace went down even as the level of effort appeared to go up.

The 25.5" x 16-2.5 board has a more refined lower rocker, finer entry and exit, narrow overall width, tracks straighter....is within a pound of the weight of my 26 x 14'...everything that would logically lend itself to more speed...yet its slower.

I swear in a full on sprint paddling my 29.75" x 12'-6", I could kick my own ass riding my 26" x 14 or 25.5 x 16'-2.5" and I have no stability issues on any of the three whatsoever.

Doesn't make sense but it's the reality of the situation.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 03:01:19 PM by SUPflorida »

PonoBill

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2017, 03:25:17 PM »
The basic math doesn't explain everything, if it did we could just weigh Connor and Kai in a tank and decide who was going to win on a given board. Even something as simple as your preferred cadence will affect the amount of benefit you gain from a particular board. A lighter paddler with a high cadence will benefit more from a longer board than the same person stroking slower.

I'm reasonably certain that there is an ideal board for everyone, and it's not necessarily 12'6 or 14'. Length alone isn't the determinant. I can't say why your 14 is slower than your 12'6" or your 16 is slower than your 14. I can tell you that if you can't reach about 5.7 mph on your 14, then it's length isn't doing you any good. Likewise if you can't hit 6 mph on your 16 then it's a waste of fiberglass. On the other hand if you're sprinting past 6 MPH on your 12'6" then you don't need any advice from me.
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Luc Benac

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2017, 06:02:44 PM »
I can tell you that if you can't reach about 5.7 mph on your 14, then it's length isn't doing you any good.

Hey Bill,
you are talking about a sustained speed of 5.7 mph, I imagine (cruising) not a sprint?
Then I should consider checking a 12.6" for flat in the future.
On flat, I can reach over that on a short sprint but not on a sustained effort like 500m or more.

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SUPflorida

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2017, 08:24:47 PM »
Pono...didn't want to give the wrong impression...let me clarify a bit. In a full out...everything I've got... for a hundred feet or so...I feel fastest on the 12'-6' the single concave in glassy conditions will get me as close to semi planing as I'll probably ever get. Way over hull speed. That said my 14 has a higher average speed. I've paddled my 14 over thirty miles in a day...I could never see doing that on my 12-6" ...also been out plenty of nasty days were I plugged along on my 14 into a head wind that would have had me losing gound and probably resorting to prone to get back.

Oh...and to your comment about stroke rate...yea that's working against me..don't like high cadence paddling...rather do less strokes with more attention to power...I can definitely feel the difference when I pick up the pace though...Just can stay motivated to sustain it...not enjoyable....

I was really hoping the 16'-2.5 was going to get me the same boost ...a higher average speed... similar to what I got between my 12-6 and my 14....after all we are taking 26-1/2" difference VS 18"...and if we get serious about waterline length it's more like 32" longer as the entire length is engaged in the 16... but it didn't happen.

Like I have said before the only two benefits I really feel are in its ability to go upwind better in chop without the loss of ground between strokes...and it tracks much better with the double concave as opposed to the single concave on my other two boards.

Every time I come back disappointed with my times on the 16 I think about hacking  off the tail to 14' or some such lunacy...but when I stand back and look at it...whether in the water or on land ...I feel it has to be me...everything just looks so right about the board. Other than possibly a touch more tail rocker I can't see anything that I would change from a design standpoint. And yet it's not giving up the performance I know is locked in there.

Maybe I can get my 215lb power lifter/firefighter/former Marine son on it and see if he can get it moving...if I can get him over his aversion to "cardio" lol he always tells me he did enough cardio in the Marines to last him the rest of his life. ;)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 08:35:44 PM by SUPflorida »

PonoBill

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2017, 09:03:58 PM »
Okay, so there are two places the 16 is letting you down. The double concave might benefit a very strong paddler but for an average paddler it's going to have more skin friction--some shapers think otherwise, and there's something I don't understand going on with the new Starboard hulls, but my primitive "tank testing" has told me that any departure from flat adds friction. A smooth, rockerless convex hull can be faster if you can stay on top of it. Concave is slower.  My finless tunnel hull has more drag than a finned board. Not what I had in mind. Live and learn.

Second, the crossover point where a 14 has less total drag than a 12'6" is in the ballpark of 5.5mph. Doesn't matter if it's cruising or sprint. However you want to use the board, that's where it starts being easier to hold that speed than a 12'6" of identical (except length) design.

For the 16, the crossover point is around 5.8 MPH. Varies a bit with hull design of course, but it's in that ballpark. Rob Rojas and Thomas Maximus can hold that while they're eating a sandwich. I never get there. Long boards are good for me for downwind. There was a time when I could hold that 18-foot speedboard at 6.2 MPH on the flats and sometimes hit 7. But not any longer. The nice new stretch marks around my biceps show why.

If you don't have the beans for it, the extra length doesn't help. That's why I've always said the rules of SUP racing condemns it to be a jockey sport--or more like a sport that maxes out at 185. Bigger guys can prevail, but it gets steadily harder, and you don't see Clydesdales like TM, Rob, or Chuck Patterson on 14's. They can't win on them.  Put them on a good 18 and Conner couldn't catch them with a 14 over a distance.

So yeah, your kid could probably make the 16 fly.
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ukgm

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2017, 12:26:50 AM »
Okay, so there are two places the 16 is letting you down. The double concave might benefit a very strong paddler but for an average paddler it's going to have more skin friction--some shapers think otherwise, and there's something I don't understand going on with the new Starboard hulls, but my primitive "tank testing" has told me that any departure from flat adds friction. A smooth, rockerless convex hull can be faster if you can stay on top of it. Concave is slower. 

......which is why I've been curious the last couple of years why starboard has gone even more extreme with their concaves on the underside of boards like the allstar. I wonder if their own testing has concluded that the decrease in a boards width overuled the increase in hull friction (due to the concavity).

UKRiverSurfers

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2017, 01:11:14 AM »
Okay, so there are two places the 16 is letting you down. The double concave might benefit a very strong paddler but for an average paddler it's going to have more skin friction--some shapers think otherwise, and there's something I don't understand going on with the new Starboard hulls, but my primitive "tank testing" has told me that any departure from flat adds friction. A smooth, rockerless convex hull can be faster if you can stay on top of it. Concave is slower. 

......which is why I've been curious the last couple of years why starboard has gone even more extreme with their concaves on the underside of boards like the allstar. I wonder if their own testing has concluded that the decrease in a boards width overuled the increase in hull friction (due to the concavity).

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Its transparent and was over 6 years ago - still doing it! Yuk :(

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floridave

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When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2017, 06:09:30 AM »
This has been a very helpful conversation for me. I had started building a SUP  very similar to SUPFlorida with same goal in mind, but I have realized I don't have the horsepower to take advantage of the additional length.


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SUPflorida

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2017, 08:04:29 AM »
Not exactly sure what length to go next time...it will probably be either 14' length overall or might try 14' waterline length and put a little rocker back in ...increase of nose rocker 2" inches and another 1" tail rocker let the overall length be wherever it works out....reduce the width to 24" regardless of whatever else happens.

Charlie's idea of making multiple interchangeable tails , and noses for that matter is sounding better all the time. Lot less work to make a second or third tail than a complete new board. Keep Frankensteining till you get it dialed in then go for it.
Oh well ...now that's out of my system...back to reality. ::)

yugi

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2017, 09:50:40 AM »
I was thinking that a 16’ SUP w a low rocker front would be approx 15’ at waterline. Maybe a tad less. Going loger means going narrower. 24 ish?

Is the trick with an UL to have a super efficient (und narrow) hull? Seems the Sprint UL is slick n fast.

JEG

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2017, 04:21:59 PM »
I think for me either UL 16+ to 17+ at 24 wide oneday.

PonoBill

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Re: When is an unlimited slower than a 14'?
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2017, 06:17:35 PM »
Charlie's idea of making multiple interchangeable tails , and noses for that matter is sounding better all the time. Lot less work to make a second or third tail than a complete new board. Keep Frankensteining till you get it dialed in then go for it.
Oh well ...now that's out of my system...back to reality. ::)

Been there, done that. You'd have to get into the wayback machine, but I made some nose additions with canoe bows that I called "The Schnozz". I was going to try them at the first Round the Rock, but I tested them the evening before the race and they sucked big time.

Look at all the time I just saved you. Basic problem--the nose has to manage considerable force at the connection point. More than I expected. I'd say live and learn, but that would be the second time this thread.

My basic plan in life is to make as many mistakes as I can, as fast as I can. So far, it's worked pretty well.
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