Jimmy Lewis Rail Downwind vid

[warmuth]

Let's remember that the Sideorder isn't actually a flat water board. It's fast for it's ilk in flat water but it's still not as fast as a flat water board in true flat water conditions (eg. protected inland waterways). So you are comparing an ocean raceboard with a downwind board when you compare the Rail and Sideorder, not a flat water board with a DW one. The difference in speed in true flat water between the Rail and a flat water board of similar width (e.g. the SIC X14 Pro) would be pretty substantial. Most rockered DW boards tend to be hard to maintain at average speeds much about 5 mph for decent distances (e.g. 5 miles of more) for the average paddler in pure flat water (i.e. glass) whereas flat water boards can relatively easily maintain speeds well over 5 mph for those distances for semi-serious racers.

  Having been caught red handed with the Bark Vapor in a basically flat 6 mile race I'd agree. Even though the 404 V3 is an "all water" board it is MUCH easier to maintain speed with over distance and that's comparing a 25.5 to a 26 inch board. My daughter who has almost no experience paddling noticed it as soon as we switched boards since she can't muscle a board up to speed.

  I did have the Vapor out in a proper DW situation for it's, and my, first time ever today. Tons of fun but 26" was too narrow for me in those conditions. Waist high bumps with a NE swell and NNW wind put me in the water somewhere between 10-15 times over 9 miles. Hell of a workout.

[dk78]

I wonder if you'd have been slower or faster on the 14x28 Rail in those conditions? There is some unwanted side-to-side rail movement there (but not nearly as much as there would be if it had been me on that board!) that might be eliminated on a wider board, but you'd have to balance that advantage alongside the disadvantage of increased drag of the wider board. It would be an interesting experiment. I'm not convinced that going narrower helps in as predictable a way when downwinding as in flat water, especially as the wind increases over 30 knots.

I was DWing a while back with a friend on a 14x27.25 Glide Mk2, which is a fast board in light conditions. My friend and I are very similar abilities. I was on a Coreban Dart 14x30. For the first half of the run the wind was only 20-25 knots. Downbreezing really. I was having great trouble keeping my friend in sight. Then suddenly the wind jumped to 30-35 knots, and I easily caught and then flew past him and ended up having to stop for him. Some of this was the increased stability of the Dart. But it went beyond that. The Dart just started planing nonstop once it got to 30 and the Naish didn't change as much.

Hi Area10, interesting thoughts. Hard to say if I would be faster on a wider board. Probably not and here is why. Maybe I am totally wrong but this is what I believe.
In downwind paddling you chase runners, you  look in front of you for bumps and then you paddle to catch them. A narrow board is much faster and more lively in flat sections and while you are padding to catch the next bump.
It is very critical to glide fast when you are not on a bump,I have found that this can affect the average speed way too much. When on a bump the speed of the board is pretty much the same, you stop padding and the wave pushes you. Then it depends on how easily you can connect the bumps and continue the glide. Even in 40knots you have to paddle hard because the waves move very fast so it’s much easier to propel a narrow board.
Furthermore I see that I can control a narrow board much easier than a wide big one when the wind howls.
I had the Dart as yours, the M-14, some Rogues, the Dart Pro, and now the Rail.
Every time I jumped to a narrower I was always faster.

So to me,the most important thing is to match the width of the board with your balance abilities. The narrower you can go the faster you will be, but only if you feel comfortable on the board and you do not fall or lose strokes trying to stay dry. If you are not comfortable on the board then it’s a nightmare.

I received the Rail 3 days ago and yesterday it was my second time on it and I was sceptical how it would go. First downwinder on a new board and 40+ knots is not something you are keen on doing.  But the Rail performed extremely well giving me some of the best glides of my life.

[Area 10]

Let's remember that the Sideorder isn't actually a flat water board. It's fast for it's ilk in flat water but it's still not as fast as a flat water board in true flat water conditions (eg. protected inland waterways). So you are comparing an ocean raceboard with a downwind board when you compare the Rail and Sideorder, not a flat water board with a DW one. The difference in speed in true flat water between the Rail and a flat water board of similar width (e.g. the SIC X14 Pro) would be pretty substantial. Most rockered DW boards tend to be hard to maintain at average speeds much about 5 mph for decent distances (e.g. 5 miles of more) for the average paddler in pure flat water (i.e. glass) whereas flat water boards can relatively easily maintain speeds well over 5 mph for those distances for semi-serious racers.

  Having been caught red handed with the Bark Vapor in a basically flat 6 mile race I'd agree. Even though the 404 V3 is an "all water" board it is MUCH easier to maintain speed with over distance and that's comparing a 25.5 to a 26 inch board. My daughter who has almost no experience paddling noticed it as soon as we switched boards since she can't muscle a board up to speed.

  I did have the Vapor out in a proper DW situation for it's, and my, first time ever today. Tons of fun but 26" was too narrow for me in those conditions. Waist high bumps with a NE swell and NNW wind put me in the water somewhere between 10-15 times over 9 miles. Hell of a workout.

Only one fall every mile or so is pretty good in those conditions and over that distance on a 26" wide board if you aren't a very regular downwinders. Bravo - that's quite an achievement. Yes - you can think you are fit until you start downwinding in big conditions!

[warmuth]

  I had no idea.... I train regularly and hard in both flat and choppy water but this was almost an entirely different sport, I will be sore haha. I've surfed my race board a bunch times but it's a crazy feeling to catch a bump and take off like a rocket in the same river I flat water train in.

[Board Stiff]

Quite frankly if you can stand on a Sidewinder 25 then a Rail 26.5 will be a perfect quiver-of-one board. Plenty fast in flats (I've had them side by side) , as good if not even better in chop, idea for downwinds (if you are 85 kg or less and not a nOOb).
I honestly would rather have just a Rail 26 over a Sidewinder 25 and a Rail28 if they were given to me for free.

Hmm, now you've got me thinking....
 

[Eagle]

Haha yugi - yeah that was me.  We pretty much designed that Rail ourselves.  He did a little vee nose then double concave mid and panel vee tail like we wanted.  And we did talk about slap as well.  Also we wanted a 26.5 vs 28.  My preference still is though - if there is enough wind where you are being blown too fast and have to drag your paddle to keep control - a wider M14 is better.  But no doubt the Bullet planes faster.  Way faster.  And way earlier and easier.  When it gets really windy the Bullet is actually too fast to handle easily.  It is much quicker to pearl vs the M14 in steep waves.  A ton of fun and grins though.  Just a lot more work and balance checks is all like in that vid.  The M14 brings all the action down a notch is all.  Where it is more fun and less hanging on so you do not get dunked.  But agree 100% that maintaining speed is very important - and the Bullet does that way better than the sticky M14.

But yugi - the Rail 26.5 cannot keep up to a SW23 over 5 miles on flat.  ex. I do not ever use my Bullet 14V2 for distance.  It is simply too sluggish vs even my Dominator.  The Rail 26.5 cannot be that fast.  26.5 is a very wide surf nosed board.  The SW23 must be faster if balance is not an issue.  I know for me -> my AS23 is my fastest board on flat ocean without a doubt.  And oddly it wins upwind and is even cross waves and DW over my 5 mile loop.

[yugi]

Interesting how people perceive things. I owned an 11'6" board with a surfboard nose, and noticed major board slap upwind in swell and chop over 1 feet. . I owned this board at the same time that I owned a boof nose 12'6" Starboard Race that was known as the "clog" at that time. The SB went upwind much better.
…

Sure. I get a similar feel. I thought the surfboard nose would be the worst too.

However, my simple observation is that riding a 11’4 Naish Nalu w/ guys with race boards, upwind is the only place where I can keep up.

My guess is that the difference from paddler to padder how they paddle into the wind is greater than the difference boards make one to another. It’s not that one board isn’t faster into the wind than another, board to board, it is that the paddler makes a bigger difference. Just my guess.

Another guess I have, which has a lot more to do with why I like the Rail upwind, is that it is better for a board to rise up and go over an oncoming wave like a duck than to plow through it like a destroyer. I’ve noticed my Naish Nalu 11’4 does OK upwind, my Rogue DW board does too. A flat undernose DW board with a big ski jump nose like a Bullet V1 or JL M14 (and to some extent the JL Sideshow) does slam just a but too much as you point out.

I did notice a remarkable performance of New Zealand’s Penelope Armstrong in the womens Worlds technical race. She did it on an Ace, she struggled at bouys badly but upwind just flew faster than Olivia Piana on an AllStar (who everyone rates as the best upwind board). Olivia woul dcatch up downwind, Penelope would pull ahead upwind. The Ace pintail is designed to make downwind easy by sinking easily without a drag penalty when the nose encounters a wave. One could just see it and the difference was amazing. Penelope won.

Hey, it could just that I’m incredibly awesome at going upwind. On a Rail or a Rogue DW in stuff over 12-15 kn there aren’t a lot of racer boys that’ll beat me. I don’t think I’m that good and I certainly pound too many beers. I believe the theory that DW boards don’t go well upwind is a myth. Hey, I should shut up and bask in the glory of whupping race boards with a clunky ol’ DW tanker. I would if I was smarter.

[Eagle]

I raced a lad 1/2 my age recently.  Mano a mano.  He was on his Bullet 14V2 - I was on my Dominator.  We sprinted probs around 300m full on.  We stayed pretty much side by side.  So I know the Bullet can go ok on flat for a short distance.  But go 5 miles and no way could he keep up.  Just too much drag for him.  On my AS23 I am another 3-5% faster than my Dom.  Luc can tell you my speeds vs his - as we have paddled many times together.  But as I have noted many times -> my speed is complete crap compared to Norm.  And Norm told me he is much slower than Kai and Connor.  His M2O results confirm this.  So there you go -> but both those guys are a fair amount younger than me.  Haha.  But agree that too many beers probs do not help my speed either.  Haha.  But I am completely ok with that.  You should bet those guys in a race upwind yugi.  Maybe you can win a few free beers.   

[yugi]

…

But yugi - the Rail 26.5 cannot keep up to a SW23 over 5 miles on flat.  ex. I do not ever use my Bullet 14V2 for distance.  It is simply too sluggish vs even my Dominator.  The Rail 26.5 cannot be that fast.  26.5 is a very wide surf nosed board.  The SW23 must be faster if balance is not an issue.  I know for me -> my AS23 is my fastest board on flat ocean without a doubt.  And oddly it wins upwind and is even cross waves and DW over my 5 mile loop.

Sure. That’s absolutely right. If I were to get serious about racing I’d definitely get an AS23 to complement my DW board. My waters, and races, are just too choppy to get a displacement board like a sprint or the new Naish Flat Jav. A Sideorder 25 however, is way too close to a Rail26. A quiver needs to wider variety.

Consider these three thoughts:

1. A 14’AS23 is faster than a 12’6 AS23, right? Well, for pure flat a 14’ Bullet V2 and a Rail is somewhere in between. Hardly a big deal. It’s not like modern generation DW boards are slugs on pure flat like people seem to be making them out to be. Might feel like it, but you’ll be surprised how little the difference is if you measure or compare. Paddle just slightly better than the other guy and you have no problem going on a DW board for a fast pace outing with a guy on a raceboard.   
 
2. If most of the people you paddle with are stronger paddlers than you then definitely get the fastest board possible. It’s good to go with better people who push you but definitely stack the odds in your favor and make an effort to not be too slow so you can keep going with the group. As soon as you begin to become a bit of the better paddler of a group I find it more interesting to ride the clunker board of the group, find myself behind and getting pushed again. Best way to keep improving. More fun for the group too.

3. If you go out for long tours conditions can and do change so much I’d really just much rather be on the DW board. I tend to go places, have breakfast, lunch, a drink or just hang and then return. It’s almost always different. Crazy boat chop. Sudden winds. Often can be survival type riding for an AS23. Doable but not fun at all. OK, you could use my last point about pushing yourself harder but 6 months of the year here the water is very cold. It becomes more than just nice to have the feet up and dry and not fall in. Except for the racers (who also have DW boards) most  of the better recreational paddlers here have switched from race boards to downwind boards. I’ll bet it’s the highest concentration of downwind boards in europe, and it’s on a lake!

Tell you the truth I do have access to some race boards and I do use them. They are fun. Defiantly nice to have in a race or when out training w a racer. I do some races on race boards and some on my DW board. We don’t have age or board categories here. I maybe gain a place or 2 on the race board. It’s not that big of a difference. As a matter of fact my best result was 2nd on my DW (with a huge hangover after an allnighter, I went straight to the race without going home.) Same field of racers but conditions were thigh high chop and a zillion bouy turns (superlap race). I was simply on the better board for the race. I also am so unphased by chop because I’m always in it, which I probably wouldn’t be if I had a skinny race board. The others just couldn’t handle it. Race board kind of guys tend to go out when it’s nice and flat.

Coming from sailing, windsurfing, kiting, waterskiing to SUP for a way to have fun on water I am enjoying the simplicity of SUP. Kiting is pretty simple as it’s just 2 boards, 3 kites, 2 bars, a harness and a helmut. Windsurfing it’s 3 boards, 7 sails, 3 masts, 2 wishbones, a bunch of mast foots. Sailing and waterskiing it’s of course boats and harbour places etc etc. I must have over a dozen skis. I got rid of a lot of bikes so I only have 7 now. So really I am loving the simplicity of a quiver-of-one for SUP. So much less to think about.

BTW the Rail is a very fish shaped board, contrary to a parallel outline board like a Sidewinder (or even a Bullet). So at 26.5 it still is maybe even sleeker than A Sidewinder25. Possibly narrower where you plant your blade. The slick shape of the Rail comes into it own in heavy chop where it is less bounced around than a brick shaped board. It slips between the bumps. On flatwater you may find the Sidewinder25 similar or even more stable. What makes the Rail stable in festive conditions is that it’s so predictable. As DK has reported.

[Luc Benac]

OK so the Sideorder 25 is not as flat water oriented than the other crop of all-water race boards?

So:

downwind only
Bullet V1, m14, riviera DW, dart,.......

downwind/all-water:
Rail, Bullet V2, Rogue DW.....
Vapor,....

all/water boof nose or similar
Sideorder, maliko, Bark DW

race all/water
AllStar, Blackfish,404 V3,.........

[warmuth]

…

But yugi - the Rail 26.5 cannot keep up to a SW23 over 5 miles on flat.  ex. I do not ever use my Bullet 14V2 for distance.  It is simply too sluggish vs even my Dominator.  The Rail 26.5 cannot be that fast.  26.5 is a very wide surf nosed board.  The SW23 must be faster if balance is not an issue.  I know for me -> my AS23 is my fastest board on flat ocean without a doubt.  And oddly it wins upwind and is even cross waves and DW over my 5 mile loop.

Sure. That’s absolutely right. If I were to get serious about racing I’d definitely get an AS23 to complement my DW board. My waters, and races, are just too choppy to get a displacement board like a sprint or the new Naish Flat Jav. A Sideorder 25 however, is way too close to a Rail26. A quiver needs to wider variety.

   That's currently my problem. The Vapor and the V3 are not far enough apart for me. The Vapor is slower enough in flat to mild that I'll never pick it(the V3 is actually more stable in flat) but not quite enough for me for the truly gnarly stuff. I'd be better off with something in the 27-28 inch range to choose from that can handle any condition that might arise.

  Racing does skew my sensibility for sure, if it weren't for that I probably would have just rode my 29" Glide forever. Once I got that taste of faster boards though I couldn't shake it. The V3 is already getting replaced by a narrower Whiplash but the Vapor will probably go to make room for a Bullet V2 to give me broader coverage.

[yugi]

^
In truth I already know I'll be building a quiver. But on the other end of the spectrum. I'll sit out the first 2 generation of foilers and then jump on it. I just figure they’ll get easier and more efficient too quickly to invest now. Major Jonesing already.

Pure flatwater boards are like road bikes to me, I'm just not old enough yet. I even have some hair left!

…
downwind only
Bullet V1, m14, riviera DW, dart,.......

downwind/all-water:
Rail, Bullet V2, Rogue DW.....
Vapor,....

all/water boof nose or similar
Sideorder, maliko, Bark DW

race all/water
AllStar, Blackfish,404 V3,.........

Nice summary, Luc. I'd slap the Maliko in the race category. Thing is race bred and fast on flats, even if it also belongs in the category above it as well.

I raced a lad 1/2 my age recently.  Mano a mano.  He was on his Bullet 14V2 - I was on my Dominator. 
…
 But agree that too many beers probs do not help my speed either.  Haha.  But I am completely ok with that.  You should bet those guys in a race upwind yugi.  Maybe you can win a few free beers.   

That race I came second in I was 1 board length behind a guy on Dominator. There was a good wind. Pointy race boards (and Allstars) were all behind us. Good idea on the beers after the race instead of 2 bottles of Jack Daniels before. I’ll try that next time. 95% of the race pack is less than 1/2 my age. If we had age categories here maybe I might get a bit more serious. But I'm still getting a foil first!

[robon]

The Rogue Rage might be the ticket. 14 x 27. I was reading Yugi's comments on it on an old thread. How does it compare to the Rail for an all water board?

[Eagle]

"Sure. That’s absolutely right. If I were to get serious about racing I’d definitely get an AS23 to complement my DW board."

yugi - yep the AS23 and Rail 26.5 would be all one would need for the ocean in these parts.  But do consider the AS23 as a fun technique improving balance board as well.  Because in that role it performs wonderful as well.  Kinda reminds me of what my Dom felt like the first year I got that board.  Was tippy tippy -> but then became super stable like an aircraft carrier after a while.  The AS23 is following in exactly the same path.  Which makes it still a ton of fun.  I think for me it is the challenge aspect that keeps my interest in SUP.  Without that I would quickly move onto something else.

[Area 10]

Warmuth - I wouldn't replace the Vapor with the Bullet V2 if I were you. They overlap too much in uses, and the Vapor is probably more versatile. It would make more sense IMO to replace the Vapor with the Bullet V1 or Rail 14x28 or similar.

The Bullet V1 handles bigger conditions quite a lot better than the V2 IMO (and I have both boards, plus a Vapor too). So if you are looking for something pretty stable for use in 25 knots+ and knee-high and over bumps, the V1 is what you want. However if you just want to downbreeze then unless you've got money to burn I'd stick with the Vapor and just practice some more with it. The Vapor is a really good downwind board. The new super-light version ("Ghost Carbon") must be awesome for small to medium DW conditions. For perspective, I own the following 14ft boards which I downwind: Vapor, Bullet V1, Bullet V2, Ace 14x25, Sidewinder 14x23, Coreban Dart, Angulo Shaka, and I have owned others (eg. M14; tried many more) and I also own a 12ft DW board plus two unlimited DW boards and have tried others. So I get a lot of opportunities to compare boards, and I'm not connected to any brand.