This shit has to stop.

[SUPcheat]

Really interesting. Lots to think about.

The video is pretty strange.  I would categorize it as the wishful thinking liberal agenda side bar, because it certainly does not resemble anything observable about actual addiction in humans.  A portion of the Vietnam vets returned and in fact returned to normal life without addiction, because they had less susceptibility to addiction.  A lot of them didn't.  There are lots of addicts who are raised in optimal sociologic surroundings, and it makes no difference at all as far as the addiction is concerned.

Addiction is thousands of years old, with nobody being able to appropriately figure out what to do with it. 

My own cold view is that addiction operates as the perfect virus that conquers us sociologically and mentally as well as physically.  It seems to take whatever form is necessary to protect itself, such as the waves of generational amnesia and the pups always going for it no matter what the parents tell them about consequences.  Perhaps 60 percent of people have no or very low risk for addiction inherently.  The other 40 percent will have some liability, if they are exposed to the substance they can become addicted to.

From the Darwinian perspective, smart monkeys who can manipulate drugs have allowed us to survive as a species better, so the casualties are simply expendable.  You can see genetics operating in this way in many pathologic contexts.  What is good for the general species, but bad for a sector of individuals, is OK with nature, even if it subjects the minority sector to painful disease and death.

[ericmichaels]

That is twice in this thread you throw out digs to "liberals" and pretend to know what liberals believe. How about stopping that shit?

Since when does Drug Addiction have anything to do with liberal or politics of any type.  The treatment of addictions are an art as much as a science.  No one size fits all.  It is a complicated subject but why can't you just follow the best available knowledge about it rather than call it liberal or conservative?

You also know what happens when you assume you know how other people think. You are generally wrong.

Assuming you know what other people feel or think is at least as big a problem in todays society as drug addiction.

[lucabrasi]

Really interesting. Lots to think about.

The video is pretty strange.  I would categorize it as the wishful thinking liberal agenda side bar, because it certainly does not resemble anything observable about actual addiction in humans.  A portion of the Vietnam vets returned and in fact returned to normal life without addiction, because they had less susceptibility to addiction.  A lot of them didn't.  There are lots of addicts who are raised in optimal sociologic surroundings, and it makes no difference at all as far as the addiction is concerned.

Addiction is thousands of years old, with nobody being able to appropriately figure out what to do with it. 

I actually found "rat park" quite fascinating and kind of the point of it. Always hear about the one experiment with critters of all sorts taking the laced stuff, dying, oding, refusing this or that and never have heard about it being done with those results of which it gave what seems a reason for the better results.
I also think "optimal" surroundings are.........I don't know, how would you say it..........subjective? What are "optimal social surroundings"? Damn if i can answer that.....
What may appear as someones perfect surroundings doesn't necessarily mean the person or subject whose surroundings we are observing are what they truly need, want, or desire even if it may seem so for or to us. Damn if I want to be surrounded by all the same stuff you are........or you either, and damn if you want to be surrounded by all I want to be surrounded by. Some peoples surroundings may never be ideal for them...........for whatever reason....and some are born never standing a chance for many reasons.
Happiness and content so to say with ones self is a funny thing as well.......same as addiction....ain't anything anyone can do for another so to say.......all comes from within.
I actually didn't view it as an agenda and I like to think I keep my antennas up.
Addiction is as old as.......us.

My own cold view is that addiction operates as the perfect virus that conquers us sociologically and mentally as well as physically.  It seems to take whatever form is necessary to protect itself, such as the waves of generational amnesia and the pups always going for it no matter what the parents tell them about consequences.  Perhaps 60 percent of people have no or very low risk for addiction inherently.  The other 40 percent will have some liability, if they are exposed to the substance they can become addicted to.

From the Darwinian perspective, smart monkeys who can manipulate drugs have allowed us to survive as a species better, so the casualties are simply expendable.  You can see genetics operating in this way in many pathologic contexts.  What is good for the general species, but bad for a sector of individuals, is OK with nature, even if it subjects the minority sector to painful disease and death.

Drug addiction is a periodic epidemic with built in generational amnesia, so the cycle repeats over and over.  Right now, the "liberal" attitude is to legalize everything because there is no such thing as addiction, drugs don't change you, personal recognizance is a blessed freedom, and you can use forever and it will always "work".

After huge waves of dysfunction, tragedy and mass death, the wheel turns again to backlash, and things go draconian for a time until the generational amnesia sets in again.

Also, our society, media, movies and TV are saturated with the lobbies that present alcohol, tobacco and drug use as funny, or the cure-all for every little upset without consequences. Consequences are only shown when they have some kind of limited dramatic intent.  The consequences shown are certainly entirely unrelated to the consequences that real people experience in real life.  Cigarettes are shown as a harmless, attractive, optional habit.  Silver screen scars toss off booze and wine like water but seldom get drunk and don't get particularly ugly either physically or behaviorally, or it's an emotionally "justified" binge. Mainstream media have become huge advertisement for these lobbies. They inject lots of money to keep the portrayals in the public eye.  I heard a few years ago that popular movie stars can get upwards of a million dollars just to allow their characters to smoke onscreen.

The sad fact is that as long as somebody can get rich from your misery and sell it to you, they will do so any way they can.  Also, the demand is so enormous and there so much money to be made, it is basically un-stoppable.  I attended a professional conference many years ago hosted by the DEA, and the agents basically painted a portrait of an impossible task.

 At that time, they also said that the "legitimate" Big Pharma companies were all setting up drug factories around the world to service the brown bag mail order drug trade at arm's length away from prosecution.

If you want to see an example of the "backlash" phase, just read what is currently going on in the Philippines.

I tend to agree with much of what you say tho

[SUPcheat]

"That is twice in this thread you throw out digs to "liberals" and pretend to know what liberals believe. How about stopping that shit?"

The arguments in the video are socio-political and have very little to do with the observable conditions that surround real life addictive phenomena. The Vietnam vet stuff is just bogus, because the physically addicted vets did not universally return from war into favorable sociologic circumstances and shed their addictions.  Some did, some didn't, and they returned with a lot of social scorn, post traumatic stress disorder, and physical and mental consequences.  Also, a lot of soldiers would not use anything at all to self medicate, even in dire circumstances, because they believed that their survival depended on having a clear mind.

I do remember very clearly that observers were surprised that ANY of the addicted soldiers shed their addictions easily.  That can be ascribed to those soldiers who did not have a severe addictive liability to begin with.

Also, the statement that people who take narcotics for medical purposes do not become addicted is false.  A segment of addicts do become iatrogenically addicted, just not all. 

I do associate liberal agendas with using absurdly altruistic or misleading projections in order to manipulate populations into a sense of security about false premises and conclusions as a means of social control, and for that, I apologize.

[Bulky]

Since I run a residential addiction treatment facility, I figure I should post something here.  Lots of perspectives, several different ways to view addiction.  Probably validity to everything said here, but my only contribution would be to avoid generalities.  It might sound cliche to say no two stories are alike, but that's what I observe.  I see rich, poor, educated, illiterate, every race, you name it.  Perhaps the most consistent factor I can tie to addiction is trauma--might be physical pain, mental/emotional, neglect, abuse, childhood stuff, etc.  Listen to the story for a bit and it kind of makes sense that the urge to escape and numb things would become attractive.  And from there the ugly things can run their course and be furthered by environments and lots of other external factors.

Returning to Stoneaxe's OP, the reality is that it's very heartbreaking--especially when it happens to human beings we know and hold dear.  So sorry about that, my friend.  Peace to you and yours.

[yugi]

^awesome post. Well seen and well said.

An ex-wingman got sucked into that decades ago. Wasn't a pretty sight. Strong guy, he took the bull by the horns last year and dragged himself out. He's doing well and is winning his buddies back.

Never lose hope.

[mrbig]

Outstanding post Bulky! Once again hearing from an individual with real world experience is invaluable..

[stoneaxe]

1Tube, I'm in the same camp, but that's just us. As a society and even as a species we've decided pain shouldn't be tolerated if you have a choice. I think there's a substantial genetic component to all this--but people treat that as if it were a moral high ground. It's not. For a lot of people, drugs are a baited trap.

When I see some drug addicted soul begging for change, I think "there but for the grace of a few base pairs go I". I've taken that bait and the trap didn't spring. Fortunate for me, but no moral difference.

I've refused any opiates...and other meds prescribed for my headaches and more recently back problems. I've always had the opinion that pain is telling us something and hiding it can make shit worse. I was very frustrated with the pill pushers (opiates and others) I was dealing with when all the shit with my head started. But I've had a few great docs and therapists lately that have basically told me the best I could do is to harden the fuck up and push through it. Happy to see they exist.

I spoke at my Justin's (my granddaughters father) funeral....I said that there but for some luck go I (basically meeting my wife). I never could judge him because I had done far worse things in my life than those that led him down his path. He was put in prison at 16 during the tough on crime era by a zealous DA running for re-election. He beat up a 65 year old guy that went after him for running over some of his bushes with a tractor. 4 years in general population in an adult prison because he beat up an old guy. Pretty sure I'd want to forget what happened to me too. The shame of it was that I could tell there was a good person in there from the discussions I had with him when my daughter was with him ( a brief period when he was sober and a longer one when she tried hard to help him). We were a lot alike in many ways except for a few forks in our roads.

Bulky's post is spot on. The circumstances couldn't be more different in the folks I've known and lost. I know what demons Justin was trying to escape but the others.....I don't know what it was in their lives that required such numbing.

and thanks Bulky...the wake is today....terrible start to the new year.

[Ichabod Spoonbill]

I agree. Beautifully put, Bulky!

[PonoBill]

I found that video very strange as well. Several people I know who have battled addiction started with a hospital visit. And the Vietnam stuff was utter nonsense. I don't know what the agenda was for the video, but it ran directly counter to my own limited experience. Doesn't mean the study results weren't as depicted, but anyone that pays attention to rat studies and studies of specific social phenomena understands how limited the relevance is, and how often they are either contradicted by later studies or are simply unreproducible.

I remember a conversation I had with a friend about recreational drugs. I said that though I had tried about everything I could think of, that I had decided I was wasting too much time being wasted and stopped. He looked at me with a mixture of disbelief and hate. Though he had been clean for decades, never having so much as a single beer or a hit of grass, he had a tough time with an addiction to reds when he was young, and a few years after we had that conversation he became an alcoholic--still is as far as I know.

That's one of the experiences that made me realize that being resistant to addiction is not something I earned with my powerful (ha!) will. It's a bit of genetic good fortune. And perhaps simply that the demons I needed to escape from were pretty wimpy.

[robon]

I started a response to this last night and decided not to post it for some reason. Bulky pretty much summed it up for me. I have been working with youth as a co-facilitator in an day treatment program for substance abuse, and the underlying contributor leading to addictions is usually trauma of some sort. Loss of connection and dislocation are buzz words in addiction work and for good reason. You lose something, you're hurting, you try to compensate. Everyone is different and has their own story.

[SUPcheat]

I'm not really in agreement with the "primal wound" or "demon" theory of addiction either.  In working on committees that concern addicted professionals, it is amazing how the "demons" disappear after a couple of months with sobriety, whether forced or monitored or not.  About a third or a fourth have residual issues with mental conditions, most commonly manic depressive or OC disorder, but those are usually successfully addressed with therapy and more conventional psychiatric medicines.

The demonology theories simply reverse cause and effect, since most of the demons in addicts are manufactured by the addiction and its myriad manifest dysfunctions rather than vice versa.

Another strange idea that is endemic in the popular mind, probably because of all the Westerns and Civil War movies, is that alcohol is good for pain.  Alcohol is terrible for pain, and lowers the pain threshold, unless the person is so drunk they are comatose, but that can be fatal, too.

Nicotine addiction also lowers the pain threshold, in addition to being absolutely awful for healing response. I have had smoking clients (some friends) who would hit the ceiling at a footstep.  If they quit smoking, after a few months they were like different people and could take routine discomforts in stride.  I know that many nicotine addicts can't stop, but having shot nerves and reacting powerfully to minor discomforts that don't even phase non smokers  I think would provide a powerful motive to quit.

I think pain medicine is a boon, and don't believe that people should "tough it out" with legitimate pain conditions.  I think the hazard comes with inappropriate monitoring and prescribing.  Doctors find that prescribing freely is a lot easier on them than fighting with the true addicts, who become enormously hostile and even assaultive at anything suggesting that their use in not within normal limits.

Chronic pain conditions can often be managed with intermittent use of opioids, non steroidal anti inflammatory drugs, and various non addictive modalities including therapy, meditation and physical therapies.

However, when people are suffering from end of life conditions that involve pain, I think that you should just hang up any rule book concerning addiction liability and give them whatever they need to make them as comfortable as possilble, including heroin.

The sad fact is that many addictions are the equivalent of a smoldering brain cancer with frequent fatal outcomes, though a segment of addicts/alcoholics manage to make it to old age while still using, albeit with generally terrible quality of life.

[stoneaxe]

If the time comes that I am at end of life and in pain I plan on trying all the drugs I've missed and then paddling into Jaws on a big day.

[surfcowboy]

Bulky nailed it on trauma and Pono's follow up about the genetic lottery is right on too.

Put those together and you get a nice (deadly?) mix.

The OP made a point that I agree with. An industry is profiting from exposing people to seriously dangerous substances. The comparisons so alcohol and tobacco are valid, but this has a cultural element that we can address now before it gets worse.

Heroin and other hard drugs have a built in stigma that's not there in prescription drugs for most users. Raising that stigma and reducing access won't stop addiction , but it might prevent a few people from having their triggers set off and it could also get a few more into recovery. Right now I know several people who think they don't need to get sober because the doctor gives them their drugs.

Ironically, the benefits of addiction treatment, when implemented well, are so wide reaching that I wish more people without obvious addictions would gain access. (Note that I believe that  there are many things to be addicted to that won't land you in a rehab or jail. Don't open that box unless you want to see people get really defensive lol.)

Self-awareness, mindfulness, forming and connecting to a community, humility, gratitude, and ways to manage fear and anxiety are all parts of addiction recovery in most current models/methods. To me, all of those sound like things a healthy adult should explore or have access to.

Maybe someday mental health care will be something like running or a healthy diet are today. There was a time when those were weird too.

[lucabrasi]

Ironically, the benefits of addiction treatment, whenimplemented well, are so wide reaching that I wish more people without obvious addictions would gain access. (Note that I believe that  there are many things to be addicted to that won't land you in a rehab or jail. Don't open that box unless you want to see people get really defensive lol.)

  That's quite a big box there.  Hahaha. I love it.  Not to minimize anything else you said tho, that paragraph jumped out to me. (and actually this one too)

Self-awareness, mindfulness, forming and connecting to a community, humility, gratitude, and ways to manage fear and anxiety are all parts of addiction recovery in most current models/methods. To me, all of those sound like things a healthy adult should explore or have access to.

Genetics? How can it not be part of if?  Physical withdrawal or addiction? Of course.
People have fallen from and ruined amazing privilege and opportunity same as we have overcome and rose from horrible circumstances and surroundings.
Always have and probably always will. We are all so different and so much the same all at once.