Author Topic: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.  (Read 18531 times)

Eagle

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2017, 09:09:04 PM »
Could be that mid-fin area bulge allows that fin to give you just enough stability for your conditions.  Out this way we have a ton of short period steep chop wind waves.  No huge ocean swell like Hawaii.  Think coldsup has the Cali - and he seems to like that fin as well.  Maybe that bulge takes away that squirrelly feeling in the Race 23 fin.

https://youtu.be/-nlut-0xW-0
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JEG

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2017, 12:50:27 PM »
has anyone tried the VMG fins?

Luc Benac

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2017, 01:15:12 PM »
has anyone tried the VMG fins?
I have. My personal choice for them is for boards with a "rounded" or flat bottom like the Falcon or Ace where they really shine.
Used them with the Bark Downwinder and they were great - flat pintail.
I like them less for something with forms like the Blackfish.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 01:40:16 PM by Luc Benac »
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Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L Salish 500
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L Andaman 520
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JEG

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2017, 02:13:02 PM »
Luc Benac - which VMG fin's do you and also use for the BF?

Luc Benac

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2017, 07:33:17 PM »
Luc Benac - which VMG fin's do you and also use for the BF?

I have the Mako 37, 44 and TT.
I do not use any with the BF except the TT for some flat water speed.
I used the 37 for down-winding and the 44 for rough seas with the Bark DW.
Sunova Allwater 14'x25.5" 303L Viento 520
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L Salish 500
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L Andaman 520
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
Blackfish Paddles

coldsup

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2017, 09:33:34 AM »
I just swapped my Futures Cali out and put the 2017 Starby Allstar fin in my M14.... more stable and still surfed fine. Reckon I will stick with it for DW too now and when I get better put the Cali back in maybe.

Eagle

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2017, 09:51:41 AM »
Haha - used my mid-sized Ultra Race fin as well the past couple times to mix things up on the 23.  First time in a long time felt kinda weird - but could not put my finger on it.  Just felt a bit unstable over my 5 mile loop for some reason.  Then went out again on Friday just before a snowstorm - and it was perfectly fine on a 2 mi up and 2 mi down.

So think it is an ok compromise fin and just needs to be used more.  Does not track super strong which minimizes stalling - yet provides ok stability and turns ok.  Speed is not super fast but is ok.  coldsup - have you had a chance to test your squirrel yet?
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yugi

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2017, 10:06:02 AM »

When a fin, or wing, or sail, stalls, it loses it’s ability to lift. A spinout is effectively a stall. If you know what a spinout feels like, it’s when the fin suddenly feels like it isn’t there any more. It has lost it's lift. Suddenly you skid sideways.

I imagine you are describing the opposite effect. Where it feels too big or grabby. Too big. No?

coldsup

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2017, 10:30:27 AM »
Haha - used my mid-sized Ultra Race fin as well the past couple times to mix things up on the 23.  First time in a long time felt kinda weird - but could not put my finger on it.  Just felt a bit unstable over my 5 mile loop for some reason.  Then went out again on Friday just before a snowstorm - and it was perfectly fine on a 2 mi up and 2 mi down.

So think it is an ok compromise fin and just needs to be used more.  Does not track super strong which minimizes stalling - yet provides ok stability and turns ok.  Speed is not super fast but is ok.  coldsup - have you had a chance to test your squirrel yet?

Nope, not tried squirrel as yet. Not really done any DW....just surfing.

Eagle

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2017, 10:31:46 AM »
yugi as noted - a stall is when there is a big bubble void and the fin loses lift because of the angle of attack.  Just straighten out down a wave and you can recover and re-attach flow.  A small fin keeps flow attached much better - but stability sometimes can be a con.  Feeling is pretty much the same on your rudder just before a broach when sailing.  Happens all the time if you are pushing speed at the limit for your heading and sail plan.  We surf and try to plane our ULDB all the time in heavy breeze and swell.

Have only spun out one time in that pic I posted before on my M14.  Most often just feel a touch of stall - then simply power out of it.  Even on my big tracking Elite.  Is pretty easy -> unless waves get steep and wind is weak.  Trick is once you feel it - power out before you round up.   ;)
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yugi

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2017, 11:47:06 AM »
I’m a windsurfer, I know what losing laminar flow on a fin feels like and I know how to [head downwind to] regain laminar flow. I'm also a sailor and know well what a broach is.

I’ve never felt a fin stall on a SUP.

I’ve broached plenty of times. The round-up death roll. I keep thinking you mean broach when you say stall.
 
I know I keep asking you this I’m either not understanding what you are talking about or I simply haven’t had it happen to me. I guess I could just consider myself lucky if I’m not getting it.

Eagle

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2017, 02:49:35 PM »
The stall occurs if you lose speed when you head across a steep wave.  The wave behind pushes the fin because you are going too slow and the fin starts to cavitate.  This becomes a) a round-up like in my M14 pic or b) a full-on broach and flip or c) a recovery where you head down the wave and re-attach flow.

So basically stall happens before you get to a broach.  So if you have broached and flipped -> your fin generally just stalled first is all.  I guess you could do a death-roll without a stall - but that has never happened to me.  What happens most is that my speed slows because I let up - the wave behind pushes the fin sideways as I go hard left or right - the fin loses flow - and you correct or broach.  Is a very distinctive feeling and easy to correct.  I do not broach much ever or death-roll.  If you stay ahead of the wave -> you do not broach.  That is the key.

So in sailing this is primarily caused from excessive heel angle and your rudder lifting out of the water.  Happens all the time on a overpowered reach with kite keeping a high angle.  Last yacht race we broached upwind maybe 2 times or so - and DW about 4 times.  But we were going at our limits of speed and the winter down drafts were strong and gusty.  Probs true 20 kts and hard gusts 30.  Over-canvassed -> but it did pay off as we won our Div and got our name engraved again.  Was a super close race.  But had sails up for the lulls which is normal race strategy. 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 02:51:40 PM by Eagle »
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Eagle

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2017, 03:58:17 PM »
In this vid at 3:10 DJ gets rolled as the wave behind pushes his fin around broadside.  The board goes parallel to the steep cresting wave - and the fin is 100% stalled.  He has no option but to fully broach and get tossed.  That vid is an excellent rough conditions instructional vid.  Excellent.  ^^^

You can see beforehand he is heading more down the waves so keeps some flow around the fin.  I have been in this position as well and got dumped kneeling on my 23.  That board is very tippy in steep waves and very hard to balance on at slow speed.  You have to get some forward speed then hop up to your feet fast and start paddling hard.  Momentum is huge on that board in waves.

Have done that same kneeling with my M14 in steep waves and breeze.  Actually got the board to plane a bit in similar conditions as the vid.  Was way too tippy and dangerous for me to stand.  Kneeling kept me dry and safe until in more sheltered waters.  That is a stalled fin that lead directly to a broach.  The more it goes across the wave and the slower you go -> the more chance of a broach.  Really is quite simple.  Just head down the wave and get flow attached again.  ;)

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yugi

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2017, 01:46:41 AM »
I’m never gotten the impression that a stall of the fin was the root of a broach. I’ll try pay attention next time. I get plenty of the side wave action like seen in DJs vid as I like to paddle out from my put-in point to get out to a better line (in line with bottom contours).

Mostly my impression is it simply is a matter of getting quartered, which dips the downwind rail causing the board to round up and getting pushed more and more from the side. Pretty much what I see in DJ’s vid. I’d think I was pretty tuned to the feel of losing traction at the fin from windsurfing. I've had, and spun out, out all kinds of fins over 30 years. Funny how after all those fancy developments it's back to simple fins.

For sure paddling like a maniac is the key. As in all “glisse” sports applying more speed does help.

I really like that video DJ. The change in ambiance, and the accompanying tunes, is excellent.. Cracks me up every time. Why is it wipeouts make us laugh so much?

Eagle

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Re: Help Selecting DW Fin For Falcon.
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2017, 11:37:53 AM »
"I’d think I was pretty tuned to the feel of losing traction at the fin from windsurfing."

What you do on a rudder and tiller is just jiggle it really fast and hard to re-attach flow when on a power kite run.  The bubble goes away and you can head DW again -> most times.  If not you just heel right over and the rudder loses complete traction and you round-up and broach if you do not blow sails.  In that way it is quite related to SUP - as the feeling is pretty much the same for me.  The problem in SUP though - is you often round-up broach and get dumped.  Haha!

https://youtu.be/DkouAjobzac
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

 


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