Author Topic: Black fish, three fin vs. one  (Read 16017 times)

Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2016, 09:29:07 PM »
Actually have used the Elite and Hybrid on the Dominator and SB Touring carbon pintail for DW.  Those fins added a lot of stability to those boards and helped in the early days.  We planed fine and stayed dry nearly all the time with those fins.  Could not turn well - but stayed dry.  Speed seemed ok as well.

As our skills improved - we purchased a Bullet 14V2 and M-14 as those boards made DW runs a breeze.  Soon we found that too much fin was a hindrance maneuvering across bumps.  So we switched to a smaller fin like the SIC 8.3.  We could catch many more bumps and go much faster - with more stability at speed.  That was an eye-opener.  Now we have progressed to an All Star 23 with a SIC 7.0 fin.  The board is stable and fast in speeds up to 15 kts.  All our boards are super stable already - with the All Star being the exception in steep cross and reflected chop.  So why go to a quad set-up?

Also is "glide" the only con to a 4 fin set-up?  Or is too much fin on a quad also a con - like using a Hybrid should never be used in a DW situation.  And what are your thoughts about those carbon SIC fins - good or bad for DW use?

You are exactly right about the Hybrid and Elite fin design in the early days back in 2011 when I came out with these for the Gladiator due to the bulky board designs then. Which is why I stopped doing these designs for the Gladiator this year because more cons than pros with today board designs which he couldn't understand so I had to separate with the confusion it created in the Sup market. Although I still make the Hybrid in HDM for Rental Fleets and the Inflatable Market which that size and makeup works well.

As for the SIC fin ok in Hawaiian waters where power is coming from the tail with little paddle stroke needed. But suck in our Calif. water which makes the board hard to ride a larger fin because they move the fin box back to track more but creates another issue when putting on a bigger fin to better your board drive then you get over fin feel of now tugging.  I have had guys add Ventral fins to make the performance better at a minimal cost to adding twins in these boards. I know the SIC Fin design which I created in 2010 for Jim Terrell when he rode for Bark, because Joe's boxes are also to far back on the tail.

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Ride Review from Standup Paddle Magazine on the new Jim Terrell Stealth Race Fin by Larry Allison

Just did a 2 mile R&D run at Ala Moana Beach Park. The Jimmy Terrell Fibre Glas Fin. Co. Larry Allison race keel to be exact was the test. I always gauge Larry's Becker/Mills race keel against whatever is placed in front of the Standup Paddle Magazine feedback team.This was the result;The Jim Terrell race keel gets way more strokes per side and even in the wind, the "yaw" was minimal. On a straight course, this one will have a lot less cross over which means keeping speed rate up and momentum going. I even went up to 16 strokes per side. I never thought that was possible.The Becker/Mills fin got me 12 plus strokes but what I like about that fin is on buoy turns, especially on those hard cross-bows, you can yank and turn a lot easier than the JT race keel.Both fins are good. Like having a 12'6 and a 14 or open water and flat water board, you should always have a quiver of at least 2 race fins. It could be a matter of a gold, silver or bronze medal at the next race. Or even 4th which means no medal especially if it was your neighbor who beat you at the last race.So whether you're doing a course race or straight course, know your equipment.

Never said glide was a con to 4 fins. Only stated if power coming from the tail is greater than the need for paddle power with more paddle strokes, then you can opt out Ventral fin.
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Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2016, 09:39:02 PM »
Here are comments about the Hybrid for DW - "This fin is also becoming a favorite among downwinders, as it offers great tracking, but still offers the maneuverability they need to move from swell to swell."

http://www.supgladiator.com/racefins/

My Point exactly: That is not me saying that it's a guy  from Texas on his Website not mine, which is why I discontinued making his brand PERIOD! Market confusion and not accurate  information along with compliant's from other people for this same reason. You don't see my name on his fins now because they are not made by me.
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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2016, 10:35:23 PM »
Interesting comments about the Aercor and GT Moray.  But this makes sense.  When we use our SIC 7.0 and get wave push from behind - the Aercor would probably be better.  But once we power up the SIC works perfectly.  The trick simply is to get up to speed and maintain it.  Conditions always change in the ocean and they are never static or consistent.

What does someone do when conditions in the ocean change when say on a 4 fin set-up -> and that becomes the wrong set-up?

In ocean condition usually becomes more extreme away from shore than closer in some cases. But other times as higher tide comes in back wash will add another element to roll in the ocean with current wind. In which case 4 fin set-up would be the fin set up to weather thru and not get thrown off your board easily because the only thing that could become wrong is glide. The trade off is glide sacrifice over swimming.

"In which case 4 fin set-up would be the fin set up to weather thru and not get thrown off your board easily because the only thing that could become wrong is glide. The trade off is glide sacrifice over swimming."

So to be clear then - do you see any cons with a quad under any conditions?

Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2016, 11:57:05 AM »
Interesting comments about the Aercor and GT Moray.  But this makes sense.  When we use our SIC 7.0 and get wave push from behind - the Aercor would probably be better.  But once we power up the SIC works perfectly.  The trick simply is to get up to speed and maintain it.  Conditions always change in the ocean and they are never static or consistent.

What does someone do when conditions in the ocean change when say on a 4 fin set-up -> and that becomes the wrong set-up?

In ocean condition usually becomes more extreme away from shore than closer in some cases. But other times as higher tide comes in back wash will add another element to roll in the ocean with current wind. In which case 4 fin set-up would be the fin set up to weather thru and not get thrown off your board easily because the only thing that could become wrong is glide. The trade off is glide sacrifice over swimming.

"In which case 4 fin set-up would be the fin set up to weather thru and not get thrown off your board easily because the only thing that could become wrong is glide. The trade off is glide sacrifice over swimming."

So to be clear then - do you see any cons with a quad under any conditions?

You are asking a guy that comes from a single fin mentality in the surfing world because I like the skateboard feel to now in the standup world me and my girlfriend only ride only 4 fin like the pic below:

The only con is weight which is added 1/4 lb.(4 fins compared to 1 fin in Fiberglass) to some people, which I will have foam carbon coming in the small ventral along with the 4by9 1/2"Twin with the 6" kick.  20 seconds longer to unscrew the twins for those of you who break down their boards to bag them, Vitamin Blue Board Bags do make bags for Twin fin and Ventral slots. Tell them Larry sent you. Other con is some say with twin fins you are not working out hard enough because of the ease added by Twins. So some Racers I know train with a Single fin and Race with all 4 to have peak energy in a Race. OPtions are great!!!

Big Pro in all 4 over single fin that everyone gets is. In a start of a Race when the water is air from all the paddling going on a Single fin feels like you are in quick sand trying to get out while with Twins you fly out like no one was there paddling next to you. Dave Boehne told me a story that happened 2 days ago while he was paddling with a group of 10 guys. Dave and one other guy had a Ventral combo while the other 8 were riding single fin. The group came up behind a big boat backing out creating a Eddie in the water. When the group hit the Eddie all 8 of the single fin guys went down in the water Dave and the other guy with ventral combos went thru with no problem. The 8 guys that fell in the water were all above average paddlers. Everyone can debate all that want Single Fin over 4 Fins in a perfect world but it's hard to fight that fact which Dave Boehne explains in a not so perfect world of Mother Nature!!!! This is why I find NO cons in a 4 Fin. Hope that covers it for you my friend.


 
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PonoBill

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2016, 12:38:54 PM »
I'm going to have to try the 4 fin setup. I would say that so far I'm convinced of the three-fin superiority in flatwater, but for downwinders, I prefer single fin. I had a hard time steering the three fin on a downwinder.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2016, 12:46:31 PM »
Here are comments about the Hybrid for DW - "This fin is also becoming a favorite among downwinders, as it offers great tracking, but still offers the maneuverability they need to move from swell to swell."

http://www.supgladiator.com/racefins/

My Point exactly: That is not me saying that it's a guy  from Texas on his Website not mine, which is why I discontinued making his brand PERIOD! Market confusion and not accurate  information along with compliant's from other people for this same reason. You don't see my name on his fins now because they are not made by me.

Ah - can now better understand the change in relationship.  It seems all of the old LA fiberglass fins have been changed to carbon.

The 2 Elite and 1 Hybrid we have are original fiberglass versions from years ago.  Those we still use and they function excellent for the purpose designed.  Elite -> rough conditions.  And Hybrid -> all purpose.  But thought the area of the Hybrid was 50.5 for some reason.  Nevertheless had no idea that the business relationship ended.

Now makes better sense.  Had the impression before that both you and Casey were both happy marketing the Gladiator fins together on both separate websites.  And agreed on the description write-ups.  But yeah if your view now is the Hybrid should now not ever be used for DW - can see that causing a rift.

https://supgladiatorfins.com/collections/frontpage

http://www.supgladiator.com/2015/02/10/sup-gladiator-adds-world-champion-female-racer-lina-augaitis-to-national-race-team/

Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2016, 01:32:06 PM »
Dave Boehne told me a story that happened 2 days ago while he was paddling with a group of 10 guys. Dave and one other guy had a Ventral combo while the other 8 were riding single fin. The group came up behind a big boat backing out creating a Eddie in the water. When the group hit the Eddie all 8 of the single fin guys went down in the water Dave and the other guy with ventral combos went thru with no problem. The 8 guys that fell in the water were all above average paddlers.

That's exactly right, on the Manhattan circumnavigate race few days back, I was flying at 10mph average on the last short section of the East River leading to the Harlem River through Hell Gate, when hitting Hell Gate, the strong currents from 3 directions formed  3-4 ft waves with some nasty turbulence all over the place.

People were falling left and right, other were struggling to stay on and going on their knees. This was one of the points where I dropped most of the people who paddled next to me for the past 7 miles or so. I was on the 6 inch stinter with small ventral and the 4x10 twins and I was able to plow through this section without too much effort. 8)
in progress...

Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2016, 02:15:40 PM »
Here are comments about the Hybrid for DW - "This fin is also becoming a favorite among downwinders, as it offers great tracking, but still offers the maneuverability they need to move from swell to swell."

http://www.supgladiator.com/racefins/

My Point exactly: That is not me saying that it's a guy  from Texas on his Website not mine, which is why I discontinued making his brand PERIOD! Market confusion and not accurate  information along with compliant's from other people for this same reason. You don't see my name on his fins now because they are not made by me.

Ah - can now better understand the change in relationship.  It seems all of the old LA fiberglass fins have been changed to carbon.

The 2 Elite and 1 Hybrid we have are original fiberglass versions from years ago.  Those we still use and they function excellent for the purpose designed.  Elite -> rough conditions.  And Hybrid -> all purpose.  But thought the area of the Hybrid was 50.5 for some reason.  Nevertheless had no idea that the business relationship ended.

Now makes better sense.  Had the impression before that both you and Casey were both happy marketing the Gladiator fins together on both separate websites.  And agreed on the description write-ups.  But yeah if your view now is the Hybrid should now not ever be used for DW - can see that causing a rift.

https://supgladiatorfins.com/collections/frontpage

http://www.supgladiator.com/2015/02/10/sup-gladiator-adds-world-champion-female-racer-lina-augaitis-to-national-race-team/

Lina, has been riding my fiberglass version of the Pro and also the Stealth Ninja. Lina has just got the 7" Stinger like pic below which takes the place of the Pro with Faster release and more surface area at the same depth as the Pro. The large tip area of the Pro gives good hold and stability but stops at top speed and now you are working against the fin holding on which releases late.

Here are recent comments from facebook about the Stinger Fin that replace the Pro in my world:
Comments
Michael Westenberger
Michael Westenberger Great fin!
Unlike · Reply · 1 · August 11 at 8:06am
Bryce Dyer
Bryce Dyer Beautiful.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · August 11 at 9:46am
Wyatt Everhart
Wyatt Everhart #FastFin
Like · Reply · August 11 at 5:15pm
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Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2016, 02:25:05 PM »
I'm going to have to try the 4 fin setup. I would say that so far I'm convinced of the three-fin superiority in flatwater, but for downwinders, I prefer single fin. I had a hard time steering the three fin on a downwinder.

You are right my friend in a downwind situation with strong power from the tail by Mother Nature with little paddle stroke needed no Ventral is required and single option is great for pivot turning. When condition forces you to increase paddle stroke to maintain speed where now power comes from front then Ventral assist is valuable. Thanks PonoBill for going thru the test.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 02:30:19 PM by ProBox-Larry »
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Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2016, 05:11:52 PM »
Here are comments about the Hybrid for DW - "This fin is also becoming a favorite among downwinders, as it offers great tracking, but still offers the maneuverability they need to move from swell to swell."

http://www.supgladiator.com/racefins/

My Point exactly: That is not me saying that it's a guy  from Texas on his Website not mine, which is why I discontinued making his brand PERIOD! Market confusion and not accurate  information along with compliant's from other people for this same reason. You don't see my name on his fins now because they are not made by me.

Ah - can now better understand the change in relationship.  It seems all of the old LA fiberglass fins have been changed to carbon.

The 2 Elite and 1 Hybrid we have are original fiberglass versions from years ago.  Those we still use and they function excellent for the purpose designed.  Elite -> rough conditions.  And Hybrid -> all purpose.  But thought the area of the Hybrid was 50.5 for some reason.  Nevertheless had no idea that the business relationship ended.

Now makes better sense.  Had the impression before that both you and Casey were both happy marketing the Gladiator fins together on both separate websites.  And agreed on the description write-ups.  But yeah if your view now is the Hybrid should now not ever be used for DW - can see that causing a rift.

https://supgladiatorfins.com/collections/frontpage

http://www.supgladiator.com/2015/02/10/sup-gladiator-adds-world-champion-female-racer-lina-augaitis-to-national-race-team/

Sorry Eagle, Hybrid is 52 Sq Inch. not 59 Sq
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Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2016, 03:19:22 PM »
Be prepared my friends the wanna be corp.world starts to play catch up. the limitations of the other systems that were designed for fins no bigger than 4inches now are trying to come into the market stating 3 plugs are the way to go, Verses 1 Probox. LOL  Not to forget for those of you that are not aware of the mechanics of Probox adding a "V" groove to suck the taper wedge insert fin into the board for a tight fit. Along with different "Cant" adjustments for fine turning Performance in Surf and  fin alignment for the Sup Touring and Race Twin multiple fin boards. If I didn't have patents on Probox Finsystems the corps would have knockoffs already. 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 03:53:07 PM by ProBox-Larry »
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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2016, 07:43:33 PM »
When condition forces you to increase paddle stroke to maintain speed where now power comes from front then Ventral assist is valuable.

Larry, in these conditions does the ventral assist stability, or is its benefit primarily for tracking and/or speed?

Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2016, 07:18:20 PM »
When condition forces you to increase paddle stroke to maintain speed where now power comes from front then Ventral assist is valuable.

Larry, in these conditions does the ventral assist stability, or is its benefit primarily for tracking and/or speed?

Let me break down the function of a Ventral Fin my friend. Thanks for asking

Ventral Fin on a Raceboard:

 A Ventral Fin on a Raceboard performs multiple duties: 1) Helps the board nose maintain a straight line 2) Helps the board increase forward power by creating resists against the pull( torque) of the paddle stroke. 3) Helps with added lateral stability under your feet on higher and narrower board designs. 4)  A Ventral Fin allows you to down size the rear fin for added speed to bring the drag noticed by depth of the fins down. Ventral fins come in 3 sizes, 1) Small at 2 inch by 8 inches is the most common used in the higher performance 2) Med at 2 1/2 Inch by 10 inch long for open ocean on high volume boards or riders that need added stability to control the lateral roll in the board. 3) Large at 3 inches by 12 inches long for deep water long distance Excursion Boards.
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PonoBill

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2016, 08:37:42 AM »
So I ground out about three miles of upwind, to the split rock from the event center. I really like the Blackfish, and I like the small triple fin setup for upwind. Good stability and tracks really well. Holds well in crosswind too. Downwind on the return, I'm struck again at how hard it is to steer with wave pressure from behind. I was catching lots of bumps, but couldn't maneuver well enough to really stay in them as long as I like. I'll be trying one of Larry Allison's dolphin fins, probably next week, and I expect it will make a big difference.

 I'm pretty happy to have a 14' board I can move around on, and that stays in trim when I move back behind the handle. I can also move well forward to press the nose down, which helps greatly in getting bigger bumps.

I had two falls today, once while angling across the wicked cross wind and swell that fires out of the backside of Wells Island, where the Hook redirects the wind. I had almost made it through and relaxed my guard a bit. I was impressed with how well the board recovered from being bashed with strange swells, There was also a counter swell from a double barge moving downriver. The second time was downwinding back to the EC. A crossed-up swell hit the tail of the Blackfish and overpowered the fins, making it feel like I had no fins at all, The board turned 45 degrees before I fell off. Felt like I was going to do a 360. Jeremy probably would have, and would have taken a picture while the board was backwards. I need all the help I can get.

Seems like I need a quickchange fin setup for upwind/downwind. More practically, I suspect a dolphin will be adequate for upwind and great for downwind.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2016, 09:55:06 AM »
Seems like I need a quickchange fin setup for upwind/downwind. More practically, I suspect a dolphin will be adequate for upwind and great for downwind.

Bill thanks for the update.
That is the setup I am planning to run this winter. 6" Stinger and 4 x 9.5" semi-elliptical. And the Pivot Dolphin for single.
Sunova Allwater 14'x25.5" 303L Viento 520
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L Salish 500
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L Andaman 520
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
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